Gun Dog Forum

Looking at entering the new pup for his first trial in about a month. Since it will likely be in amateur (puppy), I have a question about knowing when to pick him up. I know the judges will tell me if he's really bad....but not having done this before, I don't know exactly if I will be able to tell if he's really bad (bad enough to pick up on my own). I'm guessing (which is why I'm asking) that in a puppy stake, he can't do too much wrong.

Advice from you trial guys and gals is welcomed.

Very hard to get picked up in a puppy, mainly its like herding cats. Unless he is attacking/bumping his bracemate you will be fine.

I didn't read the responses to your question,I'm going to give you the awnser as to what would happen in this general location, as a newbie you will be given a very wide berth and free reign to set the hook and get you to come back and play again,some helpful encouragement will be given, and the only way your puppy will not run the entire brace is if it starts a fight with the other contestant. Puppy/derby stakes are for newcomers,Newcomers fill the shoes of those on the downhill slide of things due to age and health issues.

RoostersMom wrote:Looking at entering the new pup for his first trial in about a month. Since it will likely be in amateur (puppy), I have a question about knowing when to pick him up. I know the judges will tell me if he's really bad....but not having done this before, I don't know exactly if I will be able to tell if he's really bad (bad enough to pick up on my own). I'm guessing (which is why I'm asking) that in a puppy stake, he can't do too much wrong.

Advice from you trial guys and gals is welcomed.

Like Josh said not likely to get picked up unless inter fearing with brace mate & usually only 15 or 20 minutes. Just have fun!

Handlers of puppies are rarely asked to pick up their puppy. You shouldn't pick up the pup unless something very serious is going on.

Deciding on your own pick up say of a derby dog depends on several things. If it's a small weekend club trial I keep my dog down for the whole trip so he gets experience. If it's the last brace and the Judge looks weary/raining , I 'll pick him up if he's doing poorly. If it a big trial and my dog isn't showing anything special , I pick him up.

When it comes to picking up your dog , you won't please all the people all the time.

At my first trial , I thought that when the Judge said, "Pick up your dog." that I had to carry him all the way back to the car. :roll:

I am also a pretty big trial newbie, the biggest thing that I can say is do not be afraid to ask the judge questions. If you are uncertain of something ask, if the judge can't/won't help they will let you know. But I doubt you would run into much of that in a puppy stake.

If your dog isn't constantly tagging and trying to play rough with the other dog just let it roll. I ran one for the second time off of a horse the other week under chukar12 and that dog was horrible lol. But he was a bye dog so who really cares for 15 minutes . Plus you can always use te ground time. Go figure he tore it up the third time lol.

Have fun and don't spend too much money.

Well, based on your responses, I think we'll be good to go. Hunted him the last couple days of the quail season here (6 months old) with several other dogs, he was always moving to the front and didn't really know what he was doing. He is not much into horseplay, so I don't think we'll have that issue.

I just don't want to screw him up!

I don't think we'll do derby since the chances of him catching a bird might be high.

RoostersMom wrote:Well, based on your responses, I think we'll be good to go. Hunted him the last couple days of the quail season here (6 months old) with several other dogs, he was always moving to the front and didn't really know what he was doing. He is not much into horseplay, so I don't think we'll have that issue.

I just don't want to screw him up!

I don't think we'll do derby since the chances of him catching a bird might be high.

You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

Thats what I do..

RoostersMom wrote:Well, based on your responses, I think we'll be good to go. Hunted him the last couple days of the quail season here (6 months old) with several other dogs, he was always moving to the front and didn't really know what he was doing. He is not much into horseplay, so I don't think we'll have that issue.

I just don't want to screw him up!

I don't think we'll do derby since the chances of him catching a bird might be high.

I didn't mean now but that day will come.

Elkhunter wrote:

RoostersMom wrote:Well, based on your responses, I think we'll be good to go. Hunted him the last couple days of the quail season here (6 months old) with several other dogs, he was always moving to the front and didn't really know what he was doing. He is not much into horseplay, so I don't think we'll have that issue.

I just don't want to screw him up!

I don't think we'll do derby since the chances of him catching a bird might be high.

You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

Thats what I do..

You do this in every stake , every time?

Sharon wrote:

Elkhunter wrote:

You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

Thats what I do..

You do this in every stake , every time?

Some people have that attitude. Somehow they also feel that they paid for the judges undivided attention for the entire time as well - regardless of how useless a performance the dog is laying down.

that is the wonderful thing about puppy that no judge is going to ask you to pick up your dog unless it is fighting. Believe in your dog and go out and have a good time

Sharon wrote:

Elkhunter wrote:

RoostersMom wrote:Well, based on your responses, I think we'll be good to go. Hunted him the last couple days of the quail season here (6 months old) with several other dogs, he was always moving to the front and didn't really know what he was doing. He is not much into horseplay, so I don't think we'll have that issue.

I just don't want to screw him up!

I don't think we'll do derby since the chances of him catching a bird might be high.

You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

Thats what I do..

You do this in every stake , every time?

Cant do it every time - especially if you are "ordered" up. Then you ARE done!

If it's an AKC trial the amateur will be walking puppy not horseback.

If it was me, I would put the pup down, blow the whistle and let the little PUP ROLL!! Let the pup have fun and get out theredoing whatever it feels it needs to do. Keep tabs on it as best you can, but, if you are walking, don't hesitate to ask the mounted judges or anyone else where your pup is. They are four feet higher than you and can see a looooong way off.

Aside from fighting and physically bumping the bracemate, a puppy cannot do very much wrong. You are out there more as a training session than anything else. You want/need to know how the pup will react to this new and different scenario.

Oh by the way, do not forget to properly "introduce" your youngster to horses well prior to the brace if it has not been around them previously. I have seen many a puppy totally freaked out by the judge's horses in walking puppy and derby stakes, because they have never seen one before.

Have fun and make sure your pup is having fun too. the coolest thing about puppy and derby stakes is that you never know what is going to happen. Much of that is because the dogs don't have any idea either.

RayG

Just remember if this is your first time at a trial and the dogs first time running in one, dont get discouraged if you don't think he is doing a good job compared to your brace-mate, as sometimes it takes a few times at a trial setting for the dogs to really show their potential as it is a new place and new environment for the young pup. Have fun and enjoy.

RayGubernat wrote: Oh by the way, do not forget to properly "introduce" your youngster to horses well prior to the brace if it has not been around them previously. I have seen many a puppy totally freaked out by the judge's horses in walking puppy and derby stakes, because they have never seen one before.

Not the best first impression if your dog is barking, circling and biting the heels of the judges horse.

slistoe wrote:

RayGubernat wrote: Oh by the way, do not forget to properly "introduce" your youngster to horses well prior to the brace if it has not been around them previously. I have seen many a puppy totally freaked out by the judge's horses in walking puppy and derby stakes, because they have never seen one before.

Not the best first impression if your dog is barking, circling and biting the heels of the judges horse.

Two reason to pick up a puppy.

1 Interfering with the bracemate

2 Putting itself in danger by messing with the horses.

Otherwise don't worry.

Sharon wrote:

Elkhunter wrote:

RoostersMom wrote:Well, based on your responses, I think we'll be good to go. Hunted him the last couple days of the quail season here (6 months old) with several other dogs, he was always moving to the front and didn't really know what he was doing. He is not much into horseplay, so I don't think we'll have that issue.

I just don't want to screw him up!

I don't think we'll do derby since the chances of him catching a bird might be high.

You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

Thats what I do..

You do this in every stake , every time?

Heck ya, if I drive 7 hours and pay a $125 entrance fee and waited two days to run my dog. heck ya he is staying down the whole time! But my dog usually is pretty solid.

Over in Cal there are a couple judges that if a newer handler and dog are not doing good they will take that person and help them through the brace. Was very refreshing to see Micheal Vaz and Wayne Hale do this. I have watched judges just ride off leaving these newer people. It is amazing how just a little guidance during a regular weekend trial can go.

As for puppy just let it roll and keep an eye on what is going on...is it just some grab butt games and run and chase or is there some aggression going on..if it is a shoulder bump and being intimidating type actions I will pick that up myself as I do not want to cause the other pup problems and I do not want my pup to think that is acceptable behavior.

Most important HAVE FUN

kninebirddog wrote:Over in Cal there are a couple judges that if a newer handler and dog are not doing good they will take that person and help them through the brace. Was very refreshing to see Micheal Vaz and Wayne Hale do this. I have watched judges just ride off leaving these newer people. It is amazing how just a little guidance during a regular weekend trial can go.

As for puppy just let it roll and keep an eye on what is going on...is it just some grab butt games and run and chase or is there some aggression going on..if it is a shoulder bump and being intimidating type actions I will pick that up myself as I do not want to cause the other pup problems and I do not want my pup to think that is acceptable behavior.

Most important HAVE FUN

I agree! A dog interfering with his brace mate should be picked up.

I was talking with Travis Gelhaus at the Region 9 ASD CH in Idaho this fall, he said some pretty cool things to me about judging etc. My buddy was at the Region 14 ASD CH in Mt. the year before, his dog went with the birds on his second find. He told him that he will not use him for a placement, but was more than welcome to leave him down as long as he was not interfering with his brace mate. It gives us amateur handlers an opportunity to get better, not just "ordered up" to head back to camp.

Go have fun, if ya win be happy! If ya lose thats what we expected anyway!

You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

Thats what I do.. [/quote] Elkhunter

You do this in every stake , every time?[/quote]Sharon

Heck ya, if I drive 7 hours and pay a $125 entrance fee and waited two days to run my dog. heck ya he is staying down the whole time! But my dog usually is pretty solid.[/quote]Elkhunter

I am a weekend American Field foot trialer, mostly amateur, but occasionally I will enter an open stake. I don't think that a judge has ever told me to pick my dog up. I have had a couple tell me, "you are welcome to continue, but I will no longer be watching your dog". I will pick my dog up if I know we are out of contention, I feel this is courteous to the judges and the other handler. I will also pick my dog up for an error on birds, because I do not want him to get the idea that it's OK with me.

To answer the original question, there would rarely be a reason to pick up a puppy early. The more common occurence is to get to the end of the puppy course and the puppies can't be caught.

You guys are good. Thanks for the advice. I plan to take him over to Perfection Kennels sometime next week so we can acclimate him to the horses and make sure he "goes along" with them. They might enter him in an Open Derby? Is that the correct terminology? Then I'll run him in Amateur.

I would go with a field trial trainer and not perfection kennels if you want a competitive dog. I hear they are good, but you may want a great product. Just sayin.

RoostersMom wrote:You guys are good. Thanks for the advice. I plan to take him over to Perfection Kennels sometime next week so we can acclimate him to the horses and make sure he "goes along" with them. They might enter him in an Open Derby? Is that the correct terminology? Then I'll run him in Amateur.

Open derby will be a HUGE challenge. Even though the standards don't require it, the dogs that place in open derby are usually steady to wing at least , if not shot. You sound tough - skinned so go for it if you want- ( also a very nice lady), but Amateur might be a better start. jmo Let us know how it goes please.

edited . wrong advice. I thought it was American Field Derby not AKC Sorry.

"Sharon wrote:
You paid the entrance fee, keep that hound down till the end!

That's what I do.. "

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Previous post- Looks like I said that but I didn't.

RoostersMom wrote:You guys are good. Thanks for the advice. I plan to take him over to Perfection Kennels sometime next week so we can acclimate him to the horses and make sure he "goes along" with them. They might enter him in an Open Derby? Is that the correct terminology? Then I'll run him in Amateur.

If Jon's training is good enough for the owner of Odyssey Kennels then I think he'd do a good job for you....

http://www.odysseygsp.net/index_files/Page326.htm

Good luck!

cr

ultracarry wrote:I would go with a field trial trainer and not perfection kennels if you want a competitive dog. I hear they are good, but you may want a great product. Just sayin.

I'm pretty sure perfection kennels trains, trials and wins

I ran Trixie as a derby once and she picked up a beer can on the breakaway. Trotted next to me, played with and crunched on it the whole half hour...the whole half hour...till they said it was time. She went on to win Idaho Open SD Ch, NW Chukar SD Ch, Reg. 10 SD Ch, Reg. 9 GSP SD Ch, 3x AFTCA Regional DOY. Leave 'em down, enjoy it - even the nuttiness!!

I would go with a field trial trainer and not perfection kennels if you want a competitive dog. I hear they are good, but you may want a great product. Just sayin.

Soooo how come your dog is not with Tommy Davis or Robin Gates? Just sayin'.

Just sayin Mr. Favor , with all due respect I prefer to send mine with shorthair trainers.

DGFavor wrote:I ran Trixie as a derby once and she picked up a beer can on the breakaway. Trotted next to me, played with and crunched on it the whole half hour...the whole half hour...till they said it was time. She went on to win Idaho Open SD Ch, NW Chukar SD Ch, Reg. 10 SD Ch, Reg. 9 GSP SD Ch, 3x AFTCA Regional DOY. Leave 'em down, enjoy it - even the nuttiness!!

I would go with a field trial trainer and not perfection kennels if you want a competitive dog. I hear they are good, but you may want a great product. Just sayin.

Soooo how come your dog is not with Tommy Davis or Robin Gates? Just sayin'.

ROFLMBO - exactly. never give up. Well on second thought ............................

AKC Derbies, Open and Amateur, are rarely steady in the US.

I have heard very good things about Perfection Kennels.

And it most likely take more than one session to adjust to horses.

Ahahaaa. I thought it was American Field Derby not AKC. Sorry. (Thanks for catching that Neil.)

ultracarry wrote:Just sayin Mr. Favor , with all due respect I prefer to send mine with shorthair trainers. And with all due respect perfection kennels should never send a dog home that's not perfect in every way, or isn't that false advertising?

Huge difference then peeing excellence and being perfect.

I guess if you look at it like that you have got to ask yourself how many monkeys you see leaving a kennel with a shine.

Just sayin Mr. Favor , with all due respect I prefer to send mine with shorthair trainers.

Absolutely and it makes great sense for you to do that...just tryin' to make the point that what is best for you/your dog might not be best for wants/needs of someone else. Going along with the gist of your post - getting a great product, if you truly felt you had to get your dog to the best FT trainers/handlers in the game you would get your dog to one of the big timers that repeatedly take dogs to the highest level of the game...not just the highest level of the game you want to play.

I don't know the Perfection Kennel folks but have heard nothing but great comments about 'em. I don't think they would be successful if they weren't providing a great product for their clients - getting dogs to the highest level their clients want 'em.

I misspoke earlier - no derby - just puppy. I've got a pointer, not a GSP this time around. Jon usually trains GSP's (his personal dog - Charlie, FC Odyssey's Perfect Traveler is a nice one) but the Vizsla people have found him - and they seem to really like him. I do like the fact that he trains what you bring him. I have no intention of going through dogs until I find a competitive trial dog, mine are house dogs and hunting dogs first.

I've never field trialed, just dog games like BHU and then MH tests with my Vizsla. Well, one walking puppy first and a derby second with our young GSP last year. Jon will let me learn this with him and I'm really comfortable with him. He seems excited to work with my pup, I think he likes the Pointers, though he doesn't get as many of those as the GSP's. He treats my dogs well, is hard on me sometimes, but all-in-all, I'd trust him with any of mine and that means more to me than winning. I'm aware of my own faults and not being as competitive as the next guy is one of them. I'll do this until I don't have fun doing it and then I'll do something else with the dog.

You guys have given me some good advice (I hope) and I'll for sure keep you up to date on his progress.

Here's the little guy (he's really big to me) at a bit over 6 months on the last day of quail season here.

I don't know. As a new amateur without a ton of experience, I don't see any reason to leave a dog down if it's not getting anything done, especially in a 1hr trial or championship. Sure, you pay your entry fee, but you practice outside of competition. With that said, as an amateur I think it's also important to ride as many braces as you can during a trial in order to see if you are in contention. What might constitute a pickup in one trial might not be the same in the next. Several weeks ago I left my dog down after a slight mistake, but at the time, the judges still didn't have anything. I ended up getting fourth, but would have picked up if I knew the judges had some good dogs to pick from.

jetjockey,

Judges should be there to select the "best" dog....not the perfect dog, and the "best" dog may not be perfect, but the perfect dog may not be the "best".

jetjockey wrote:I don't know. As a new amateur without a ton of experience, I don't see any reason to leave a dog down if it's not getting anything done, especially in a 1hr trial or championship. Sure, you pay your entry fee, but you practice outside of competition. With that said, as an amateur I think it's also important to ride as many braces as you can during a trial in order to see if you are in contention. What might constitute a pickup in one trial might not be the same in the next. Several weeks ago I left my dog down after a slight mistake, but at the time, the judges still didn't have anything. I ended up getting fourth, but would have picked up if I knew the judges had some good dogs to pick from.

We run 3 hour continuous courses, so if you pick your dog up halfway through course 2 its not as if the judge gets airlifted back to camp. What does it matter if he watches your dog or the other handlers dog. Judge still has to ride the course, your not doing him any favors by picking up.

We run 3 hour continuous courses, so if you pick your dog up halfway through course 2 its not as if the judge gets airlifted back to camp. What does it matter if he watches your dog or the other handlers dog. Judge still has to ride the course, your not doing him any favors by picking up.

I think that you are helping both judges and the other handlers if you pick up. If your not winning anything and you pick up,the judge can then watch the other dog which may be in contention. This will be helpful when the judges are discussing placements because both judges did see at least some of that dogs run. If both dogs pick up early, it is certainly true that the judges still need to ride to the start of the next course. They do not have to make every twist and turn though, they may be able to cut a few corners and get there quicker.

rinker wrote:I think that you are helping both judges and the other handlers if you pick up. If your not winning anything and you pick up,the judge can then watch the other dog which may be in contention. This will be helpful when the judges are discussing placements because both judges did see at least some of that dogs run. If both dogs pick up early, it is certainly true that the judges still need to ride to the start of the next course. They do not have to make every twist and turn though, they may be able to cut a few corners and get there quicker.

^ Agreed. It is also out of respect for the judges and the other handler. Who knows what could go wrong, but if you are out of contention, I as a judge would not want to see you keep your dog down and "something" ends up messing up the other dog/handler. Simple as that.

Elkhunter wrote:

jetjockey wrote:I don't know. As a new amateur without a ton of experience, I don't see any reason to leave a dog down if it's not getting anything done, especially in a 1hr trial or championship. Sure, you pay your entry fee, but you practice outside of competition. With that said, as an amateur I think it's also important to ride as many braces as you can during a trial in order to see if you are in contention. What might constitute a pickup in one trial might not be the same in the next. Several weeks ago I left my dog down after a slight mistake, but at the time, the judges still didn't have anything. I ended up getting fourth, but would have picked up if I knew the judges had some good dogs to pick from.

We run 3 hour continuous courses, so if you pick your dog up halfway through course 2 its not as if the judge gets airlifted back to camp. What does it matter if he watches your dog or the other handlers dog. Judge still has to ride the course, your not doing him any favors by picking up.

We ride 3 hour courses as well. Doesn't change the fact that if I'm not in contention, I won't waste the judges time. That's why I said I think it's important to know if the judges have anything or not. If I'm not winning, I know why, the judges know why, and so do most of the people in the gallery. I don't need the judge to continue watching my dog just to tell me what I already know. 30 minute weekend stakes are a little different, but if you spend the money to run 1hr stakes and championships, you should know what it takes to win.

PntrRookie wrote:

rinker wrote:I think that you are helping both judges and the other handlers if you pick up. If your not winning anything and you pick up,the judge can then watch the other dog which may be in contention. This will be helpful when the judges are discussing placements because both judges did see at least some of that dogs run. If both dogs pick up early, it is certainly true that the judges still need to ride to the start of the next course. They do not have to make every twist and turn though, they may be able to cut a few corners and get there quicker.

^ Agreed. It is also out of respect for the judges and the other handler. Who knows what could go wrong, but if you are out of contention, I as a judge would not want to see you keep your dog down and "something" ends up messing up the other dog/handler. Simple as that.

Most of my trials are wild bird CH's, so its not over till its over! Especially when bird work is at a premium, ya never know what will happen.

Elkhunter wrote:Most of my trials are wild bird CH's, so its not over till its over! Especially when bird work is at a premium, ya never know what will happen.

OK I do understand that. BUT, if a judge asks me to pick up my dog because I am out of contention, I do not turn to him and say thanks but I paid $ABC amount of dollars and I am going to leave my dog down. IMO that is disrespectful to the judges, the other handler and the rest of the field.

You feel you should leave a dog down that has been ordered up (for any reason) and continue on? In a wild bird trial where bird work could be at a premium (as you stated too), you may be taking opportunities away from the other participants. You make more enemies than friends and I would hope you wouldn't have other dogs to run...may not be pretty - just sayin

Dogs should only be ordered up for two things, fighting and interference. Taking a couple steps at the flush may put the dog out of the running, but he shouldn't be ordered up. If the judge feels strong enough that, and given the judges might already have their 3-4 dogs, the judge should politely inform the handler that his dog isn't in the running anymore.

Now some will say what if the dog that's out of contention does something to hamper the performance of it's bracemate? We don't order dogs up on "what if's". This is where the sportsmanship aspect comes into play......you wouldn't appreciate it happening to you, so don't do "it" to your bracemate.....and if you don't figure it out, there will be plenty of people to tell you other than the judges.

EDIT: fixed should to shouldn't

PntrRookie wrote:

Elkhunter wrote:Most of my trials are wild bird CH's, so its not over till its over! Especially when bird work is at a premium, ya never know what will happen.

OK I do understand that. BUT, if a judge asks me to pick up my dog because I am out of contention, I do not turn to him and say thanks but I paid $ABC amount of dollars and I am going to leave my dog down. IMO that is disrespectful to the judges, the other handler and the rest of the field.

You feel you should leave a dog down that has been ordered up (for any reason) and continue on? In a wild bird trial where bird work could be at a premium (as you stated too), you may be taking opportunities away from the other participants. You make more enemies than friends and I would hope you wouldn't have other dogs to run...may not be pretty - just sayin

I don't feel an amateur judge should ever tell you to pick up your dog UNLESS he is interfering with his brace mate! He can tell you your out of contention etc but I don't think he should order you up.

None of the judges at any of the trials I have been too, including CH's never ever seemed put off or pissed off because someone kept their dog down the whole hour. It must be different out west!

Had a judge say that if your dog doesn't go on point by the time we get to that hill your out..... I guess that could be considered ordering it up... Granted he is a big running gun dog that made it to the back of the course and beyond.. So the next day I just said I'm only looking for ground time

Elkhunter wrote: We run 3 hour continuous courses, so if you pick your dog up halfway through course 2 its not as if the judge gets airlifted back to camp. What does it matter if he watches your dog or the other handlers dog. Judge still has to ride the course, your not doing him any favors by picking up.

Both judges get to watch the potential winner if you pick up, and if both dogs pick up then you grab another two from the dog wagon and keep on truckin - can save a significant amount of time and horseflesh.