Decline of Field Trials

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I realize that AKC and AF are good organizations but I think it is in their best interest to see Field Trials survive. It seems that they focus more conformation and the ring than in the field. We are a small constituency and may need to speak a little louder to get help.

[dan v]

Haven't seen a rep in three years? That's a good thing in a way, means no one has sent up any red flags for your event. But if you would like to have one there, a simple phone call for a request and it can probably happen. The Reps we have today are helpful, easy to get along with and will work their tail off for your club if you ask them for a hand. They are a FAR sight better then what we had when I started in the sport. Back then they were there to try to make you sweat, today... they are there to help.

In fact I like every AKC Field Rep I've met. Tom Maneely, Bonnie Hidalgo, Gary Sadler, Nelson Whiteman back in the day. We've had Doug Lundgren attend our NFT. They need to be paid too.

AZ Brit....fact is the Conformation shows are where the money is at.

[PntrRookie]

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...

I will be honest...the four pages of this thread made my eyes glaze over. SO to answer this is question.

The NBHA hosts a stake that ANY newbie can grab their dog and enter...an ALL AGED Amateur Judgement Cease at Flush (basic derby standards) which actually qualifies as a SD placement (qualifies for Am CHs), we give away Gun Dog Supply certificates to newbies at every trial, we have an up to date website that techie newbies can follow and access EVERYTHING about us. We have LOCAL clubs offering stakes for Ams (and Pros) with ALL stakes - puppy, derby, sd, and cease at flush. We are represented at shows like Pheasant Fest (where I am headed to work - third day - the booth) where I have got a good handful of new, interested people signed up. We are a walking trial org that ANYONE can come enter, walk, talk, stick around for the libations, etc. I host two websites for newbies to checkout - it is all at their finger tips. I (we) do ALL of this for the LOVE of the game. I am hosting a Regional CH trial that will probably not make ANY money (out of MY pocket) - JUST FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME. So there is a LOT we all do to grow the ranks...we just need the ranks to come out, have someone bring them out and give it a try.

[fuzznut]

I wish we had "like" buttons on this site!

[DonF]

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...

I will be honest...the four pages of this thread made my eyes glaze over. SO to answer this is question.

The NBHA hosts a stake that ANY newbie can grab their dog and enter...an ALL AGED Amateur Judgement Cease at Flush (basic derby standards) which actually qualifies as a SD placement (qualifies for Am CHs), we give away Gun Dog Supply certificates to newbies at every trial, we have an up to date website that techie newbies can follow and access EVERYTHING about us. We have LOCAL clubs offering stakes for Ams (and Pros) with ALL stakes - puppy, derby, sd, and cease at flush. We are represented at shows like Pheasant Fest (where I am headed to work - third day - the booth) where I have got a good handful of new, interested people signed up. We are a walking trial org that ANYONE can come enter, walk, talk, stick around for the libations, etc. I host two websites for newbies to checkout - it is all at their finger tips. I (we) do ALL of this for the LOVE of the game. I am hosting a Regional CH trial that will probably not make ANY money (out of MY pocket) - JUST FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME. So there is a LOT we all do to grow the ranks...we just need the ranks to come out, have someone bring them out and give it a try.

I'm not sure why but other than NSTRA, AKC and AF, there isn't much for trialing out here. I'm thinking NBHA is not a shoot to kill trial? I suspect the most participation is at the NSTRA trials. Reason, shoot to kill. Having done both type of trials, I like best to trials where there is no shooting to kill. In defense of NSTRA though, they have got a lot of people out doing with their dogs that otherwise wouldn't be out doing.

[ezzy333]

Very well said.

[cjhills]

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...

I will be honest...the four pages of this thread made my eyes glaze over. SO to answer this is question.

The NBHA hosts a stake that ANY newbie can grab their dog and enter...an ALL AGED Amateur Judgement Cease at Flush (basic derby standards) which actually qualifies as a SD placement (qualifies for Am CHs), we give away Gun Dog Supply certificates to newbies at every trial, we have an up to date website that techie newbies can follow and access EVERYTHING about us. We have LOCAL clubs offering stakes for Ams (and Pros) with ALL stakes - puppy, derby, sd, and cease at flush. We are represented at shows like Pheasant Fest (where I am headed to work - third day - the booth) where I have got a good handful of new, interested people signed up. We are a walking trial org that ANYONE can come enter, walk, talk, stick around for the libations, etc. I host two websites for newbies to checkout - it is all at their finger tips. I (we) do ALL of this for the LOVE of the game. I am hosting a Regional CH trial that will probably not make ANY money (out of MY pocket) - JUST FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME. So there is a LOT we all do to grow the ranks...we just need the ranks to come out, have someone bring them out and give it a try.

What is your web site At NBHA all I get is barrel racing...........................Cj

[AZ Brittany Guy]

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...

I will be honest...the four pages of this thread made my eyes glaze over. SO to answer this is question.

The NBHA hosts a stake that ANY newbie can grab their dog and enter...an ALL AGED Amateur Judgement Cease at Flush (basic derby standards) which actually qualifies as a SD placement (qualifies for Am CHs), we give away Gun Dog Supply certificates to newbies at every trial, we have an up to date website that techie newbies can follow and access EVERYTHING about us. We have LOCAL clubs offering stakes for Ams (and Pros) with ALL stakes - puppy, derby, sd, and cease at flush. We are represented at shows like Pheasant Fest (where I am headed to work - third day - the booth) where I have got a good handful of new, interested people signed up. We are a walking trial org that ANYONE can come enter, walk, talk, stick around for the libations, etc. I host two websites for newbies to checkout - it is all at their finger tips. I (we) do ALL of this for the LOVE of the game. I am hosting a Regional CH trial that will probably not make ANY money (out of MY pocket) - JUST FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME. So there is a LOT we all do to grow the ranks...we just need the ranks to come out, have someone bring them out and give it a try.

I'm not sure why but other than NSTRA, AKC and AF, there isn't much for trialing out here. I'm thinking NBHA is not a shoot to kill trial? I suspect the most participation is at the NSTRA trials. Reason, shoot to kill. Having done both type of trials, I like best to trials where there is no shooting to kill. In defense of NSTRA though, they have got a lot of people out doing with their dogs that otherwise wouldn't be out doing.

You are right Don. I have looked into NBHA and US Complete and they are nowhere to be found out in the West. I even left a voice mail for the NM US-C rego dir with no return call. I like that AF recognizes them and I would be very jazzed if AKC did too.

[PntrRookie]

http://www.nbhadog.org/

[JKP]

we just need the ranks to come out, have someone bring them out and give it a try.

Are less dogs from the trial ranks being bred?? Is the % of pros gone up or down? I think if you identify what contingent has fallen off, it might help you. The impression for the less indoctrinated is that it is a largely professional or near professional driven competition. Years back I remember a Setter trialer in Northern NJ. He always had 8-15 dogs of which 2 or 3 might be competitive. Who keeps a string these days and goes through them to find the ones that can compete?

Out of curiosity, but what % of dogs that finish are trained and handled by amateurs...folks with less than 10 years in the sport?? and how many dogs have they probably gone through?...just wondering

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

JKP I just started in F Trials about 9 yrs ago I new absolutely nothing about it & took my 13 mo old dog to a pro to get evaluated.He called me in about a wk & half & said she is a keeper.He did train her & trialed her I had a mini stroke 3 wks after I left her with him.I now know a little about the sport & wish I could run my own dogs in atleast amateur but can't because of physical problems.If you want to finish a dog it is cheaper to have a pro do it then you can but if you want to run your own dog it can be done if I were able my pro would furnish me a horse to run in amateur.Star was the first dog I ever trialed & I bred her didn't buy her & never went through any other trial dogs,she injured her shoulder at home & took about six mo off from trialing needing only 2 points to finish.The following spring she was healed as good as she was going to & we entered her in the first trial of the season which she won & finished with a bad shoulder.She fell on her face at the beak away going down the hill 3 or 4 times making it clear she was never going to be 100%.I retired her after that as a trial dog.That summer I sent a 3 1/2 yr old dog to summer camp with my pro,he was broke on pigeons by me & been hunting a couple yrs some as much as I could with my problems.It took a couple training camps & a few trials to get accustomed to the horses,his handler,& the trial commotion,till he was competitive.Last fall he placed at 4 of the five trials he ran in winning two stakes to accumulate 7 points toward his FC.I also bred this dog,did not buy him either barring any injuries he should finish this spring just needs his retrieving points.He is NOT an 800 or 1000 yard dog. My FC Star was at times when not finding birds but I am trying to produce that 800 to 1000 yard AA dog!! before I die.

I would like to know if you have ever been to a F trial because you keep talking about 800 to 1000 yard dogs & I can tell you the majority are NOT! The ones that are YES THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY!! you can't make them if it's not in them.

The walking trials are pretty much all amateurs I don't of any pros running in them on a regular basis so quit using the pros,horses,cost,etc.as excuses.Competition is just that you compete,you win or you lose.

[JKP]

I would like to know if you have ever been to a F trial because you keep talking about 800 to 1000 yard dogs & I can tell you the majority are NOT! The ones that are YES THEY ARE BORN THAT WAY!! you can't make them if it's not in them.
The walking trials are pretty much all amateurs I don't of any pros running in them on a regular basis so quit using the pros,horses,cost,etc.as excuses.Competition is just that you compete,you win or you lose.

You think I am trying to criticize...I'm not. I'm raising questions, that's all. You don't answer my question as far as the % of pros and amateurs although you admit that getting a pro is the way to go, in your opinion. How many folks show up for the walking venues, learn the time and $$$ it will take to get to the upper levels and just decide its not for them. The entry costs are high if you're gonna do it seriously.

The idea that folks are afraid of winning or losing is bogus. There are so many win or lose sports going on this country from golf to tennis to dog sled racing....in my town, kids are on the wrestling mats from the second grade. That whole discussion is just an easy excuse to lay the problem off on the supposed "weanies" rather than take a hard look at what has changed and why FT is not as attractive as years back. Chevy saying its Ford's fault doesn't move more product.

I've been to a dozen trials, most more than 20 years ago...all in the east...and as a hunter, didn't see what it had to offer me. I've bred a couple of dogs that were competitive with some major wins, one in the east and a couple out west....and these weren't heavily FT bred dogs. I also found out that there is a hierarchy in the FT circles as to whether you're running short fields in the east or AA type venues out in big country....AKC or AF...there is a definite cast system To be honest, a dog is just a tool for me and it either gets the job done that I need or it will belong to someone else. Whether my dog is better than everyone else's is really not anything I care about. I saved that kind of concern for what puts bread on the table.

[orbirdhunter]

All good points and questions...And as a younger, new field trailer(32yrs old and this will be my 3rd year competing) I think about this stuff often.
My perspective is basically all weekend AKC horseback field trials, been to a couple walking akc trials, and went and rode a couple braces of a AF trial, I believe that it was shooting dog 1hr braces( I was testing out a horse).
I can't put a exact number on it, I don't have any running sheets to really look at.....But in our all breed AKC HB trials I am certain that more dogs are amateur handled then pro handled. Dan Hoke is the big pro for our area, then there is a handful of other pro's but there strings are not very big. A reasonably number, probably over half the dogs that the pro's run also get run by their amateur owners in the amateur stakes. A majority of the amateurs run in open class as well as amateur class. A majority of the amateurs are running more then one dog. We have a pretty good contingent of amateurs that are running up to 4-5 dogs....We have a pretty big number of "serious" amateurs that travel and run at regional and national events, and do very well there.
As a aside, in the Brittany trials Paul Dorion will make or break it for the club, he has a HUGE string of dogs.....
The only thing that I can really think of to "grow" the sport is some kind of advertising/marketing. Most of the clubs around here do not run amateur puppy or derby very often, which seems counter intuitive, but when you do run one, rarely get anybody to show up. Maybe better marketing would help. Another problem with those classes, is that trying to get the trial done in 2 days isn't all that easy at times. Usually the problem we run into is that we might have 100 dogs running, but only 25-30 people running those 100 dogs, setting up braces, timing etc...
It can be intimidating to run in broke dog stakes just starting out. I remember the first time riding a couple limited gundog stakes and thinking that I will never own a dog half as good as all of these dogs are....And to truly be competitive here your gonna have to have a darn nice one, but the more I watched and learned, the better I felt about it...AGD is always competitive, but a nice run and a couple finds will keep you in the conversation...
What has really drawn me more then anything, is the fun I have watching the dogs, and the great people. Everybody pretty much always has a smile on there face, everybody is upbeat and encouraging, everyone pitches in and helps out to make the trial go smoothly...its just a great way to spend a weekend.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

That exactly why I ask you why do you care what's going on if your not interested I know nothing about your venue & don't care to because I'm not interested.I know nothing about NAVHDA or HUNT TEST because they don't interest me.
There is plenty I don't know about F Trials because I am relatively a newbie my self but my dogs can compete there,does it cost money you better believe it does but it's what I'm interested in.
I do know a little about NSTRA because I use to attend them yrs ago with friends though I never competed there again because I didn't see any thing different or special about it.The horses,dogs, rules,grounds, handlers,do appeal to me & that's why I spend my money there.
I don't play golf,tennis,bowl,or any number of other things out there & they all cost money if your serious about,Are F Trials declining I can't answer that any more then I can answer your questions but maybe some one else can.
I here how some want more walking Trials & have nothing against it but if they want them then why are their entries smaller then the HB trials held by the same clubs? These same clubs hold amateur walking stakes along with the HB stakes
why do they not get enough entries at times to even hold them? I'm all for what ever works but the trials we attend like I said before are pretty much full or have been in the past anyways,

Last yr my pro cancelled one trial completely because they didn't have room for his string,it's not worth it to a pro to run 2 or 3 dogs.

Did you or did you not tell me you didn't believe in ONE WINNER? Just asking.Again if you weren't one of the several that told me that I apologize but there is no harm in it.

I mean isn't that why they don't keep score in little league & everyone makes the team & plays etc today? Tell me what do you think that teaches our kids? Does it teach them how to handle failure or does it teach them to blow away the kids that made the team? Call me what you want I don't care I have a thick skin & will LOL about what ever you throw at me.

[ultracarry]

As late 20 year olds my friend and I run some trial dogs. He has finished multiple Championships, I have finished my dogs AFC and another amateur finished her FC. I think about a total of five of her over 40 points are from a pro.

I would say there are a lot of amateur dogs being run by amateurs. Pros will always have more entries but AM handlers place a lot. Pretty close to 50%.

I use a pro on the national circuit for two dogs I co own right now because I can't take unlimited vacations to travel and run them nor would it make financial sense. Plus Dan has the work ethic I would expect when I'm putting my money on the table. It's hard to find. Maybe we would actually have more people in this sport if "trainers" weren't popping up and taking advantage of people who were looking for a pro?

[JKP]

Did you or did you not tell me you didn't believe in ONE WINNER?

I have no problem with winners. But having worked for myself and been hired on my performance, I realize that the concept of winning is fleeting at best. At some point you have to look past the trophy and really understand the quality of the product. Winning is not a proxy for quality...at least not always. Winning for me has always been a short high at best. When I came off the court in college after scoring 25 and snagging 12 rebounds, my thoughts were more on the easy put back I should have made....but that's me.

I would hope that FT goes on because a lot of good dogs have been positive influences on a lot of breeds. FT isn't perfect by a long shot but what game or system is? Its not the only path to a great dog (in spite of what many FT proponents think) and maybe with the rise of alternatives, FT has competition it didn't have before...competition that is more user friendly. Just don't tell me and others that were weak and can't stand the competition....that's just arrogance finding an easy out avoiding the issue...like management telling the employees "its all your fault".

[ezzy333]

Ted, one of the main reasons entries are lower in walking trials is that pros do not participate which you can easily see why. Number of entries don't really tell you what you think they do many times. I am not sure how many pros you have at the GSP trials but many times the Britt may have a couple and they each bring 20 or more dogs. That is what makes a trial. And you may have 10 or 20 amateurs there and that means probably 7 or 8 dogs in any given stake. That is why the walking numbers are less and probably always will be as long as we have pros competing and present.

Ezzy

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Ezzy I understood that when I wrote it but if the pros are the ones keeping the newbies from coming why don't they enter these trials & take up where the pros leave off.

There have been some amt walking stakes at the HB trials cancelled because they didn't get entries so where are the newbies the pros scare off?

I can remember one of the first trials I went to there was a beginner at his first trial borrowed a horse he was braced with Chris.
Chris told him if you have any questions ask,he said this is a puppy stake we will have fun & I will help you all I can.

They think the pros are their enemy they are not. The pros do have problems with other pros or handlers that interfere with them though & will repay the favor some where down the RD!

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

JKP sent you a PM maybe it will refresh your memory of not liking the winner takes all format. I know my memory has slipped some but I still remember a few things.

[dan v]

Ezzy I understood that when I wrote it but if the pros are the ones keeping the newbies from coming why don't they enter these trials & take up where the pros leave off.

There have been some amt walking stakes at the HB trials cancelled because they didn't get entries so where are the newbies the pros scare off?

I can remember one of the first trials I went to there was a beginner at his first trial borrowed a horse he was braced with Chris.
Chris told him if you have any questions ask,he this is a puppy stake we will have fun & I will help you all I can.

They think the pros are their enemy they are not. The pros do have problems with other pros or handlers that interfere with them though & will repay the favor some where down the RD!

IMO the problem in having an Amateur Walking GD stake in among a HB trial is that some of the HB Amateurs will be running their HB dogs in the walking stake....and for the novice, that's still off putting. So when a club combines a AWGD in a HB trial, you are only giving the walking handler one stake (yes, I know you can walk a dog in any stake), so it come down to, "Do I want to drive there any only get one lap?" Couple that with the probability of a serious amateur entering a HB dog in the AWGD....Often the answer is no.

Our local AKC FT are dominated by pros in terms of entries...the local AF/AFCTA club is largely amateurs.

[Wind Dancer Kennels]

This thread is becoming just like " Best Dog Food" thread.
Seems there are a few people on this thread that just want to argue with each other.
Is there anything left of importance on this topic or can it be locked yet?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Most the Amt walking stakes at the HB trials are puppy & derby no walking broke dog stakes unless a walking trial.These are where the newbies should get broke in & experience before moving on to BD stakes.If it wasn't for the club members
at the walking trials they wouldn't get enough entries to hold them.Don't ask for more of something & then not support it.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Their is not enough walking trials out here for a walker to avoid the trials with horses. They try to avoid bracing walkers with HB riders but it happens from time to time. I try to avoid open stakes as a walker because I know the pro's hate to deal with walkers.

[JKP]

JKP sent you a PM maybe it will refresh your memory of not liking the winner takes all format. I know my memory has slipped some but I still remember a few things.

Not my post. Trust me...I have nothing against competition. The idea that we are not competing in the VDD or other organizations is completely bogus. I didn't take the top male placement and 4th overall at the Hegewald out of 211 entries this year because I went just to attend. They didn't count down the top ten after two days in the field and water and then present the winner (that's right the "winner") because they wanted everyone to feel good. Frankly, I get sick and tired of arrogant "run and gun freaks" alluding to my second class dogs and weak "can't stand to lose" constitution while they kiss their own behinds and remind us how wonderful they are. Just because there is a list of scores doesn't mean there wasn't a winner or that many weren't there with the goal to hold up the trophy that has been held up for 80 years. Here's the guy that won ....211 entries...8 countries...and a load of professional handlers .. if this looks like a loser with no competition in him, you need glasses http://www.juragrund.de/

Stuff it VonZep....you are way off....I will go back to Germany again with my next good prospect to win...not to get my attendance certificate. If you can't draw folks to your events, maybe its because of the attitude...good word, listen to yourselves here blaming your inability to get folks involved on everyone else. That's like telling your boss and all your co-workers that your poor performance review is their fault. You all want to blah, blah about all you do...but its not working...so what does it mean?? Haven't got a prayer.... For 38 years I had to get my own work...I needed 8-10 contracts a year to make it all work. If your not getting the work...if no one is buying...if the participation rate is falling....you can blame everyone else....tell everyone that what you're doing should be enough....but that doesn't get the check signed. And that's reality...

Good luck....my recommendation is to start with an attitude change....For those of you that are making constructive suggestions....wish you well.

[cjhills]

I don't quite get where the big thrill is in hiring somebody to train and handle my dogs. Although my eighty year old legs might make me too slow to handle my own hunt test dogs this year. I hope not. I can still go fast enough to train them. ...................... Cj

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I don't quite get where the big thrill is in hiring somebody to train and handle my dogs. Although my eighty year old legs might make me too slow to handle my own hunt test dogs this year. I hope not. I can still go fast enough to train them. ...................... Cj

I think it must be the same mentality that race horse owners have. Living vicariously through their animals, trainers and handlers. I know once I can't get around a half hour stake I would still like to be a part of the culture.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

OK JKP you didn't send me that PM I use to respect you but after telling me that well not so much.I have more of your PMs if you can't own up to them you shouldn't write them. I could copy it & put it up here for every one to see but PMs are personal & not to be shown but I have never written one I denied.You need to go back there & scroll down & see the PMS we did back & forth then tell me you didn't send them to me, now I think you are totally full of it.

All of a sudden you want to brag up college basketball & your business like the college football star that wanted to go live in Germany.Well I allowed him to gode me into bragging on my Baseball but I won't let you.
Far as working I had a Roofing business myself so WHAT!!

You lost ALL respect when you denied your PMS.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I did train my avatar dog Storm on pigeons did you miss that part.He just needs his retrieving points to finish but he is a natural retriever didn't need FF like my FC Star.I didn't train her because I wanted to know if she had the tools for trialing
& don't start training much until the age I took her to Chris & it was time for winter camp so she went.I'm glad your healthy enough to still do what you love but if you couldn't walk with out tripping over yourself we will see how much you get done.I'm not giving up my dogs until I dead even if it means some one else will do it.I could care less what you do or don't do.

[ezzy333]

Ezzy I understood that when I wrote it but if the pros are the ones keeping the newbies from coming why don't they enter these trials & take up where the pros leave off.

There have been some amt walking stakes at the HB trials cancelled because they didn't get entries so where are the newbies the pros scare off?

I can remember one of the first trials I went to there was a beginner at his first trial borrowed a horse he was braced with Chris.
Chris told him if you have any questions ask,he said this is a puppy stake we will have fun & I will help you all I can.

They think the pros are their enemy they are not. The pros do have problems with other pros or handlers that interfere with them though & will repay the favor some where down the RD!

I never indicated that pros scare off the newbies. I did say that two pros can have 40 dogs entered in open stakes along with ten or twenty amatuers and there are only 10 or twenty newbies to enter the walking stakes.

Just a numbers game.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Ezzy I know you never said it but others here have suggested it.I know exactly what your saying I'm just saying the stakes are there for the newbies but they don't take advantage of them.

Sent you a PM CJ!

[Neil]

There has been a lot of good discussion here, I think more to come. But you guys are going to get it locked for no reason. Please contribute or go to PM's.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Neil if your talking to me I will never post on your thread again.

[cjhills]

There has been a lot of good discussion here, I think more to come. But you guys are going to get it locked for no reason. Please contribute or go to PM's.

If you are talking to me you are absolutely right...........................Cj

[campgsp]

I think some of the young guys are reading all of this thinking "really is this what I want to be a part of" lol joking.
Coming from the younger generation. I think a lot want to do try it. I think more are involved I nstra then akc. Coming from personal feelings. I prefer to run my dogs under foot. Buying a horse, trailer, paying for boarding because I don't have the room to keep a horse just isn't sufficient.
Sure I can rent them at some trials. But that privilege isn't at all trials. Then there is, since I can't own a horse because of the reasons mentioned. How do I train my dog to run from one? Sure I can rent a horse for that. But the cost I used for the rental horse could go for birds which I can use more. And the rental is probably more work to go through just to train my dog for an hour a day.

Then I think I can send him to a pro and have him or her train/run my dog. But I really rather prefer to train run my own dogs. I mean I do all this for the dog but I also do it for myself because I like hunting, birds, dogs, etc. Wouldn't be as enjoyable to me letting someone else have all the fun.

This may all just sound like excuses. Maybe they are. Or maybe its just logical thinking from my own lifes sights.
I will be running in akc trials this year. It's something I've always wanted to do. But I will only be attending walking stakes. Sure I probably will only run in two or three the whole year. But I have more fun in these dog sports doing it the way I feel comfortable. Maybe one day When I feel I can't walk as far as I once could a horse will be bought or I'll just retire from dog.
Until then I'll enjoy it the way im comfortable with
This is just my observation. I think a majority of the young generation is pretty well off. I don't think money is a huge factor in deciding what they want to do with their dogs. I think its more of what dog sport is more appealing to their style.

And common guys. They see you all on a forum arguing over little things and think well I wonder how much worse a trial can be, being its competetive and all. Lol im joking.
I bet your all great people in person. No pun intended.

[JKP]

I think its important for newbies to interact with the old timers and the most experienced in any dog venue. Even in NAVHDA, I have seen the "pro" quality handlers distance themselves from the regular training days, concentrating on their own dogs and the Invitational. Several posts have indicated that walking stakes and other possible entry level can't be filled because pros won't participate...after all they do have contracts and a living to make. Could be that those that make their living or have the most to gain need to invest more time in growing the business. To assume its money, or time, or the young are lazy, fear of competition or general "weanyism" ...is not going to solve the challenge.

Just wondering....but wasn't the hey day of FT in the 50's and 60's....and wasn't it largely well to do folks paying others to run dogs for the sake of a trophy and bragging rights...more or less like horse racing? There aren't as many racing tracks today either. Am I wrong but haven't the number of trial venues declined? ....the times have changed....smart businesses find a way to adapt with it.
When did AKC trials start? and why? I would assume so the less monied had access without the trainer and investment. Are those numbers declining too?? I hope y'all find an answer...again FT dogs have provided valuable genetics for many breeds.

[x Bred Pointer]

I'm going to speak from a "coverdog" perspective. I'm currently staring down 60 in a year or so and have only been involved in trials for the past 8 years. I've owned bird dogs all of my adult life but never got involved in trials until later in life for various reasons. I admit there was a stigma about trials and trial dogs and I had swallowed it. At age 50 I told my wife I didn't want to leave anything on the table in this life and wanted to get a trial bred pointer and get into coverdog trials. I am now the president of our local club where we hold both an open and amateur woodcock championships along with several week-end trials.
We face the same challenge of getting new people involved and do everything from gun dog stakes to training days. You have to find that right individual and they come along rarely. It's the person who gets hooked on the game. I can speak from experience that bird dogs have to become your main obsession. I used to fish a lot and now it's training bird dogs in the summer preparing for fall trials.
As for the "old boys club", I just don't see it. All of the coverdog trial people that I have come accross are more than accomodating and will bend over backwards to help out a new person.
In the coverdog game, I'm guessing that close to 100% of the dogs are also hunted extensively. So the trial game becomes an extension to the sport of upland hunting.
So in our sport we try to encourge that bird hunter with the good dog to take those extra steps to break out the dog and come out and try a field trial. The sport is not for everybody so those that come along that have the right make up have to be mentored.
Growth in the sport has to come from the walking ranks whether it is coverdog, US Complete, NBHA or one of the AKC trials. Folks have to be encouraged to get out and have fun with their bird dogs and it doesn't have to break the bank to do it.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Good, constructive post JKP. All the points you raise are good ones. I think in order for a person to get "hooked" on the sport you have to enjoy the whole package. You must like the people around you, enjoy the competition, enjoy training and the "journey", respect the history of the sport and finally love the dogs. Like any volunteer endeavor, a few people do the work of many. A successful event must have good organization and operations plus great marketing and advertising. It's a loosely organized sport at the front line level and frankly I am amazed that it does as well as is does. It's a small community and not everyone is going to enjoy it.

[dan v]

Most the Amt walking stakes at the HB trials are puppy & derby no walking broke dog stakes unless a walking trial.These are where the newbies should get broke in & experience before moving on to BD stakes.If it wasn't for the club members
at the walking trials they wouldn't get enough entries to hold them.Don't ask for more of something & then not support it.

By rule, Am. Puppy and Am. Derby HAVE to be walking.

I'm trying to give your tone the benefit of the doubt considering the written word over the internet is hard to convey points of view without sounding abrupt. But man, the tone is hard to get around.

So I gather the events at Tri-Valley are packed full....where else in the state of Ohio can you turn a run a FT? I know events on the east coast are packed, not because there are so many dogs, but more along some clubs have given up holding events...and that funnels dogs to fewer and fewer events, which gives the appearance of boom times for entries.

[dan v]

Just wondering....but wasn't the hey day of FT in the 50's and 60's....and wasn't it largely well to do folks paying others to run dogs for the sake of a trophy and bragging rights...more or less like horse racing? There aren't as many racing tracks today either. Am I wrong but haven't the number of trial venues declined? ....the times have changed....smart businesses find a way to adapt with it.
When did AKC trials start? and why? I would assume so the less monied had access without the trainer and investment. Are those numbers declining too?? I hope y'all find an answer...again FT dogs have provided valuable genetics for many breeds.

AKC trials started around the turn of the 1900's.

"Back in the day" field trialing was a sport of the monied, and then times got real good monetarily after WWII. That opened the door for "Joe Average" to enter the sport. IMO, the sport is headed back to before WWII. I like working my dogs, and I use the service of a pro, but it is cheaper to send a dog out with a pro. Not anywhere near satisfying, for me though.

We're in the process of loosing our only HB grounds here in MN, so the nearest spring FT grounds is nearly 300 miles. At $4/gal diesel, that's a $240 fuel bill hauling horses...that's nearly 1/2 month with a pro, plus expenses.

[JKP]

Like any volunteer endeavor, a few people do the work of many.

That's a sticking point. Granted, you get tire kickers and then a few newbies that have the potential to be the "do bees" of tomorrow. IMO...you have to get these folks involved quickly so they feel they have some ownership, even if its small
at first. I've been involved with dog clubs of one type or another for 50 years, and those with the control can often be their own worse enemy. If you have the same folks just rotating chairs year after year, its not healthy for the future.

Give folks some "ownership" as they progress...get "em hands on, starting small and as they're ready. Just a thought....I know my club fights with this problem a bit...

[shags]

So I gather the events at Tri-Valley are packed full....where else in the state of Ohio can you turn a run a FT? I know events on the east coast are packed, not because there are so many dogs, but more along some clubs have given up holding events...and that funnels dogs to fewer and fewer events, which gives the appearance of boom times for entries.

Yes, as a matter of fact they pretty much are packed. The exceptions might be those scheduled in early March ( weather very dicey) and those on Easter weekend. What I've heard from the grapevine is a couple of closed breed trials don't do well if they manage to tick off a pro or two.

A couple of clubs hold walking trials on other grounds, and I hear that they went well with comfortable entries.

My experience mirrors Ted's - we've had requests for walking stakes and nonregular stakes for new folks, and the peolple who requested them didn't even bother to enter much less show up to help. After several years of low/no participation we dropped them.

I'm sorry to hear that Minnesota grounds are in jeopardy. Is US Fish behind the trouble?

[fuzznut]

Some numbers to chew on - AKC FT's
2001- 38,922 entered
2011- 32,317
2012-32,376

[AZ Brittany Guy]

So I gather the events at Tri-Valley are packed full....where else in the state of Ohio can you turn a run a FT? I know events on the east coast are packed, not because there are so many dogs, but more along some clubs have given up holding events...and that funnels dogs to fewer and fewer events, which gives the appearance of boom times for entries.

Yes, as a matter of fact they pretty much are packed. The exceptions might be those scheduled in early March ( weather very dicey) and those on Easter weekend. What I've heard from the grapevine is a couple of closed breed trials don't do well if they manage to tick off a pro or two.

A couple of clubs hold walking trials on other grounds, and I hear that they went well with comfortable entries.

My experience mirrors Ted's - we've had requests for walking stakes and nonregular stakes for new folks, and the peolple who requested them didn't even bother to enter much less show up to help. After several years of low/no participation we dropped them.

I'm sorry to hear that Minnesota grounds are in jeopardy. Is US Fish behind the trouble?

I will bet it is the USDA driven by the EPA lurking back their somewhere.

[DonF]

I don't quite get where the big thrill is in hiring somebody to train and handle my dogs. Although my eighty year old legs might make me too slow to handle my own hunt test dogs this year. I hope not. I can still go fast enough to train them. ...................... Cj

My friend, I cannot pass this up. Just a bit of encouragement for you. BTW, my 68 yr old knees got me pretty much stopped.

Back to the point. Meet Herb Anderson at the 2012 AFTCA Region 10 Championship. Preparing to run his dog in the one hr stake. He had three finds, got off his horse and back on at each and finished the hour going away. This guy is an inspiration to us all! He was 94yrs old at the trial. This guy is my hero!!!!

[DonF]

In spite of what a few people on here think money is a major factor. No doubt if you want to bad enough you can find a away. Most people with kids in school and multiple sports are not going to have time and finances for training and trialing and don't want to hear how the old guys did things. That was a different time. Most live in some sort of housing development where restrictions on owning one dog are quite stringent and owning two or three is impossible. Most don't have acreage to keep a horse or two or facilities and land to train a pointing dog. Most family people just can't do it.
I don't think there ever was very many people with young families in trialing. I sell a lot of puppies to 45 year olds who are getting there first dog,
Trialers tend to scare people away by bragging about how fast and far their dogs will run. Most family people don't want a dog like that. There is a arrogant attitude at many trials among the judges and people in charge that turns a lot of people off.
The kids today are not any lazier than they ever were, I have heard that all my life. They do have different values. My son coaches High school wrestling and little league If you would go to their practices you may change your mind.
Trials and test may be going the way of the dinosaur and all we will be able to do is wave them bye bye...............Cj

I'm 41 and just bought my first pointing dog. I have kids in school. This sums it up for me. I don't think kids are any lazier these days. They play with their Ipods. I played with my Atari 2600. Their activities and sports are just more structured and time consuming then when I was a kid. Any free time I have I try to get out and hunt and do a little training. Spending a weekend at a field trial would be tough. My wife wouldn't go. I go to a few local ones and watch. I don't get the sense of the old boys network. Everyone there is pretty helpful and friendly.

I would love to have acres of land and kennels with multiple dogs and horses. My job in the city and expense of owning land is prohibitive. I can have two dogs max in my subdivision.

If your job in the city and the expense of owning land is prohibitive then you've made your choice. I left the city long ago and I live in a run down place of a small piece of land no one else would want. At the end of my life I suspect I'll look back and just may see that the best years of my life were the years I actually lived, not the years I was a slave to property and a job.

[DonF]

Most the Amt walking stakes at the HB trials are puppy & derby no walking broke dog stakes unless a walking trial.These are where the newbies should get broke in & experience before moving on to BD stakes.If it wasn't for the club members
at the walking trials they wouldn't get enough entries to hold them.Don't ask for more of something & then not support it.

By rule, Am. Puppy and Am. Derby HAVE to be walking.

I'm trying to give your tone the benefit of the doubt considering the written word over the internet is hard to convey points of view without sounding abrupt. But man, the tone is hard to get around.

So I gather the events at Tri-Valley are packed full....where else in the state of Ohio can you turn a run a FT? I know events on the east coast are packed, not because there are so many dogs, but more along some clubs have given up holding events...and that funnels dogs to fewer and fewer events, which gives the appearance of boom times for entries.

Where is that rule? I could go for all walking stakes.

[shags]

AZBritt,
In Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Michigan US Fish and Wildlife has shut down or attempted to shut down state trial areas which use money from Pittman-Robertson. Killdeer Plains in Ohio was done in by them four or five years ago, and USFish still
comes around to inspect to make sure the grounds aren't being used. The facilities which included a nice barn, dog kennels, and a clubhouse with offices, kitchen, restrooms, and showers were slated to be demolished and the parking lot turned under.
They were unsuccessful in closing Michigan grounds because the state decided not to use PR funds for those areas.
PR funds add millions to state budgets.

Keep an eye on what your DNR and the feds are doing. No one is safe.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

AZBritt,
In Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Michigan US Fish and Wildlife has shut down or attempted to shut down state trial areas which use money from Pittman-Robertson. Killdeer Plains in Ohio was done in by them four or five years ago, and USFish still
comes around to inspect to make sure the grounds aren't being used. The facilities which included a nice barn, dog kennels, and a clubhouse with offices, kitchen, restrooms, and showers were slated to be demolished and the parking lot turned under.
They were unsuccessful in closing Michigan grounds because the state decided not to use PR funds for those areas.
PR funds add millions to state budgets.

Keep an eye on what your DNR and the feds are doing. No one is safe.

I thought the PR funds were expressly for enhancing the hunting / sportsman experience and the Gov was directed to using it for that. Is their a "Readers Digest" version of the Act?

[JKP]

As a point of interest....in the time FT entries declined 20% and by 6000 entries/yr, the total entries for NAVHDA increased by a paltry 1000....so I'd say the Vdog movement isn't even on the radar screen. Doesn't look like there's been a mass exodus of the weak and non competitive...I'd say the problem is more internal and loss of grounds could be a large part of it.

[shags]

AZBritt,
In Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Michigan US Fish and Wildlife has shut down or attempted to shut down state trial areas which use money from Pittman-Robertson. Killdeer Plains in Ohio was done in by them four or five years ago, and USFish still
comes around to inspect to make sure the grounds aren't being used. The facilities which included a nice barn, dog kennels, and a clubhouse with offices, kitchen, restrooms, and showers were slated to be demolished and the parking lot turned under.
They were unsuccessful in closing Michigan grounds because the state decided not to use PR funds for those areas.
PR funds add millions to state budgets.

Keep an eye on what your DNR and the feds are doing. No one is safe.

I thought the PR funds were expressly for enhancing the hunting / sportsman experience and the Gov was directed to using it for that. Is their a "Readers Digest" version of the Act?

Not that I am aware of.
Their idea of 'enhancing' is not what most of ours as outdoorsmen involved in any activity would be.
Be afraid.