Decline of Field Trials

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:00 pm

Vonzeppelin you have whined and cried in this thread more than anyone, I think the pot is calling the kettle black .

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:03 pm

Sharon wrote:
bigoak wrote:Hey,I want to know where Sharon's buying pigeons for $1.50!
London, Ontario at a weekly small game auction ; too far for you to come I think.

PS
Of course it depends on who's bidding. One day a guy kept driving the prices up so he would always win x 25 birds. I talked to him afterwards as I wondered. He said " I buy them and free them ; they deserve to be free. " :roll:

Send that guy down here. Tell him I have 60 pigeons to sell and he's welcome to go set them free!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:04 pm

OK if you say so!!

WAH WAH BOO HOO! I'm crying some more.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:06 pm

Practically every old-timer I know such as Ted, Charlie, myself, all admit there was a time in our lives when we didn't have the time, money, or the ability to get involved with trials and probably had little desire to do so. And yet, here we are quite a few years later talking about the younger people today just don't have the desire we did. Young people today are facing the same thing we did and are reacting the same as we did. A family which comes first, the money to provide for the family, lack of time and a place for training, and many the lack of money to even buy a pup. And that situation is going to continue till the family is grown and gone out on their own. Make all of the excuses you want but with college costing tens of thousands for each child, health care out of sight and going higher, and all of the other costs we all have today plus a lack of quality jobs and I understand completely why there is a lack of young people.

There is absolutely no need to try and label our younger generation as being less than we were. Kids have been the same since time began. They will go as far in any direction as they can get away with. Parents are different though. I have heard so many people our age lament that they were successful because they had to earn everything they had but they were going to make sure their kids didn't have to. Tell me how that makes any sense at all? Once the kids are out on their own it can be quite a shock to finally discover why Mom and Pop suggested they shut of the lights when they weren't using them, to shut the door when it was cold out, or even the expense of driving the car that Dad often said No to. Cost of utilities, gasoline, insurance, and food, and we want to ridicule now because they don't have the money for a dog or a place to keep and train it. I said a long while ago the difference is in societal values today compared to yester year. But there is little change in people other than their idea of what is fun and what isn't, but I am not sure how you can blame the kids for sitting in the house playing with the computer or the X-box when we are the ones who bought it for them and we also do not insist on kids going outside to play but instead tell them they have to stay in the yard and not talk to anyone they don't know. Seems to me that part of the problem is our lack of memory. And I have seen the case many times where the newcomer isn't always welcomed like they should be as well as the lack of horses and places to train. But one of the main reasons just may be that trialing has grown into a sport of it's own and has little to do with hunting. Go back and read practically evey thread on here about training a pup and first and foremost they are told they have to decide on a program, then buy all of the equipment, and have lots of patience. All may be good advice but then they are told the training will never end. How many of us did that when we got our first dog? My first dog was an enjoyable experience of watching it learn to hunt while the family taught it to live by our rules such as come and housebreaking and we didn't have or use a single program or book. And the dog turned out good. Just a post up the page a little was lamenting with out trials what would happen to our dogs, would they just be trained good enough? My answer to that would be yes, since that is about the ultimate you can have no matter what the sport. We don't see people who love to swim training on the diving platform and neither do we see the people who drive to work training with NASCAR.

If you want more trailers make trialing more appealing to the newcomers. Salesmanship is always about providing a product that people want or need. Unless we do that we will be able to post about the dying sport of trialing like we have mummly peg and tiddly winks.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:12 pm

Hey, Where is the person who instigated this thread?

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:16 pm

Wyndancer wrote:The AKC fees are pretty minimal really. An application fee of between $15-25 and $3.50 per dog ran.

Those are current entry fee's to run in a recognized field trial? I think and someone can correct me, out here it runs about $50 per entry to run. Run in a AF Championship trial about $125 per entry at the least!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:28 pm

AKC WK end $50 to $60 Nats I think were $185. NGSPA CH $160 Nats $175 to $225

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:30 pm

Ninevehn wrote:So, Vonzeppelinkennels, when you were the age of the younger generation today, you didn't field trial either, but the reason that they don't is because they are so different from you? C'mon.

My generation came of age in the worst economic situation since the Great Depression. There are three job seekers for every available job, and young applicants are competing against experienced people who were laid off in 2008. Inflation adjusted, we are the first generation in a century that can expect to make less than our parents, and most of us can expect to need a healthy pile of tuition debt before we even get that far. Those reasons, more than any perceived laziness, are why my generation is not participating.

I mean, I like to hunt. I love dogs. I don't even have one right now, because I work two full-time jobs and live in a one-room apartment so that I can afford to get a degree next year. That's not lazy, that's just being in tough straits, something it sounds like you ought to empathize with.

The worst economic situation since the depression is a myth. Nothing against you but it just shows how the news media and political sound bites influence what a lot of people believe.

Charlie

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:34 pm

The economic situation was/is the same for every one no age group is singled out.You just have to learn to live by your income not above it & that has been the BIG PROBLEM!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:40 pm

Has this thought ever crossed your mind,with the wild bird population declining the way it has been for yrs hunting could come to an end before F Trials ? Might be F Trials or planted birds could become the only game in town.

It's pretty much like that in some states now.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:13 pm

DonF wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The AKC fees are pretty minimal really. An application fee of between $15-25 and $3.50 per dog ran.
Those are current entry fee's to run in a recognized field trial? I think and someone can correct me, out here it runs about $50 per entry to run. Run in a AF Championship trial about $125 per entry at the least!

We run between $40 and $55 depending on the stake (AKC)Not for Championships of course.

http://region13fieldtrials.blogspot.ca/

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:22 pm

whatsnext wrote:Hey, Where is the person who instigated this thread?

I think Neil is sitting back looking at this, having a drink and laughing

When this dies down he will come up with something to get us all riled up again

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:33 pm

Neil is a southern gentleman, he would never intentionally rule anyone unless they put too much sugar in his mint julip!

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:33 pm

rinker wrote:I don't know that I have any real answers, but I have observed a real shift in the bird dog world over the years. From the time that I was a child up until my early twenties or so, every one that I knew that was a bird hunter or field trialer had E Pointers and English Setters. All of these folks lived in the country and had four or five dogs, or more that they kept in outdoor kennels or chained out. Some of these guys also field trialed and some of them were just hunters, but even the hunters were well aware of the major field trial winners of the day and could quickly explain how their hunting dogs went back to these winners. NSTRA was very young and I had never heard of NAVHDA.

Fast forward to today and most of the bird dog owners that I know have GSPs, or other continental breeds. They live in subdivisions and they own one or two dogs that live in the house. These dogs spend as much time at the dog park and going for car rides as they do hunting.

I think that the shift has been away from traditional field trials and towards NAVHDA, and AKC type hunt tests.

You make some good points. I think it is also geographical. A lot of the kids that grew up in the deep south and south east had bird dogs as part of their culture. Didn't this game start on the plantations in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi etc. There use to be some small towns in the south that the chief employer was the plantations. I wonder how many here grew up in that type of environment? I was a kid who grew up in the suburbs in the Midwest in the late 50's early sixties. My next door neighbor and his dad used to take me hunting since my dad was handicapped. I had no clue about this little world until I was close to retirement. I love it and don't know what I would do with myself all day if I could not get my dogs out and work them.

BTW I have two sons that work around 60 hrs. a week and I am very proud of them. And neither have time for this sport as they have kids.

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:46 pm

DonF wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The AKC fees are pretty minimal really. An application fee of between $15-25 and $3.50 per dog ran.
Those are current entry fee's to run in a recognized field trial? I think and someone can correct me, out here it runs about $50 per entry to run. Run in a AF Championship trial about $125 per entry at the least!

No, those are the fees the club pays to AKC when it puts in an application for a trial.

Entry fee here for broke dog stakes are $50-65 or so.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:31 pm

What you need is a good movie. Remember "A River Runs Through it"? Fly fishing went ballistic afterwards. Contact Redford with a good story line and the rest will be magic...

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:03 pm

QuillGordon wrote:What you need is a good movie. Remember "A River Runs Through it"? Fly fishing went ballistic afterwards. Contact Redford with a good story line and the rest will be magic...

You ever see the biscuit eater.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:08 pm

After reading this post I think I know why so many have a pro handle their dogs in trials.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:10 pm

It takes guts , I'll tell you,

but I placed first against some pros ONCE, and there's no better feeling.

I thought, "Hmmm . Maybe I do what I'm doing." The guy I beat is a good friend of time and I still remind him of this event once in a while. It still bugs him.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:21 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
QuillGordon wrote:What you need is a good movie. Remember "A River Runs Through it"? Fly fishing went ballistic afterwards. Contact Redford with a good story line and the rest will be magic...
You ever see the biscuit eater.

No, but I did see Seabiscuit... Good movie. I can't help but think there is a "bleep" good hound story along the same lines as Seabiscuit out there somewhere worthy of a motion picture...
I do like your thinkin though...

Just one suggestion, keep the story line with the trial's, I don't need anymore competition in the hill's...

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:35 pm

A mini series could be made out of "Fields of Glory " it covers field trials from the first until about 1940, and written in a similar a fashion as Seabiscuit. It's ashamed the author didn't complete the book covering 1940 to the present.

aeast8 · Post by **aeast8** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:14 pm

The OP mentioned desire.
I have the desire to be out in the middle of Wyoming hunting sage grouse, the mountains of Snake River in Idaho for huns and chukar, the sandhills of Nebraska for flushing sharpies and chickens and pulling out cactus of my buddies paw, the back country of Montana for a elusive bird or any other part of the country that I can walk behind my dog and not see a single other hunter. I just have the desire to be out in the middle of nowhere, just me and my pup and hopefully some points and a bird in the bag.
I think field trials are great, I'm in awe of what some of these trainers and their dogs can do. But I competed in competitive sports, including collegiate, my whole life up to about 22 when I graduated college. The elusive birds and the beautiful country, with my imperfect dog that I trained and myself the imperfect hunter out alone together, calls my name. No more I'm the best, your the best. Just me, the pup, and the birds for fate to decide.
Like I said I think the field trials are awesome, I wish they would show them on ESPN so I could watch. The competitive spirit is awesome and sometimes I miss playing baseball. But the middle of nowhere calls my name, so all my money goes to travel expense.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:26 pm

DonF wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The AKC fees are pretty minimal really. An application fee of between $15-25 and $3.50 per dog ran.
Those are current entry fee's to run in a recognized field trial? I think and someone can correct me, out here it runs about $50 per entry to run. Run in a AF Championship trial about $125 per entry at the least!

Somebody was talking about the money AKC was making and they should do something to promote the sport. What I posted is the AKC share. So of a $60 GD stake, the AKC gets $3.50 of it. They also get $3.50 of a $45 derby. Then the club pays an event application fee to AKC, is between $15 and $35 as I recall. The lower number is for a parent club event, an the higher for an independent type of club.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:29 pm

I've won a few times against Pros then it occurs to me that it's not me, it's my dog. I share my beer with him in camp that night......just kidding!

I do let them ride shotgun back home

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:23 pm

Takes two

Ninevehn · Post by **Ninevehn** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:50 pm

birddogger wrote: The worst economic situation since the depression is a myth. Nothing against you but it just shows how the news media and political sound bites influence what a lot of people believe.

I've seen plenty of charts and analysis holding up my assertion, but I'd surely appreciate a pm with information to the contrary. Not sure this particular thread is really the place for a bigger discussion.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:30 am

Wyndancer wrote:
DonF wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The AKC fees are pretty minimal really. An application fee of between $15-25 and $3.50 per dog ran.
Those are current entry fee's to run in a recognized field trial? I think and someone can correct me, out here it runs about $50 per entry to run. Run in a AF Championship trial about $125 per entry at the least!
Somebody was talking about the money AKC was making and they should do something to promote the sport. What I posted is the AKC share. So of a $60 GD stake, the AKC gets $3.50 of it. They also get $3.50 of a $45 derby. Then the club pays an event application fee to AKC, is between $15 and $35 as I recall. The lower number is for a parent club event, an the higher for an independent type of club.

Ok. Misunderstood you.,

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:38 am

QuillGordon wrote:What you need is a good movie. Remember "A River Runs Through it"? Fly fishing went ballistic afterwards. Contact Redford with a good story line and the rest will be magic...

That's a brilliant idea! I read ZipZap a while ago from cover to cover in one setting. It would make a fantastic field trial movie. It's a great story! Anyone got any connections?

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:45 am

ZipZap? That must be your's that's here. I was wondering where it came from!

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:21 am

DonF wrote:ZipZap? That must be your's that's here. I was wondering where it came from!

Yup. Loaned it to ya last summer. Good thing the weather around here is conducive to book reading

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:30 am

DonF wrote:Ok. Misunderstood you.,

Don...the even greater point is this. Speak with anybody from the AKC concerning field events. It really isn't a money maker in any sense of the word for AKC. As you are probably aware, AKC has Field Reps attend various events. So they incur travel expense such as airfare, lodging, car rental, and meals. So just do the math for a Rep to attend a AKC field event (they quite often are working a cluster in a geographic area though).....100 dogs ran = $350, plus the minor event fee. But then there are people at AKC that process paperwork and results...that isn't free either. So yes, there have income that is spend over multiple envents on the same trip.....but it isn't a money maker for AKC in any sense of the word.

So the assertion that AKC has the money and should do should something to promote field events sounds noble, I think their (our) money is better served on keeping the anti-forces at bay. AKC does far more in that regard than any of the other ORG's combined.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:44 am

aeast8 wrote:The OP mentioned desire.
I have the desire to be out in the middle of Wyoming hunting sage grouse, the mountains of Snake River in Idaho for huns and chukar, the sandhills of Nebraska for flushing sharpies and chickens and pulling out cactus of my buddies paw, the back country of Montana for a elusive bird or any other part of the country that I can walk behind my dog and not see a single other hunter. I just have the desire to be out in the middle of nowhere, just me and my pup and hopefully some points and a bird in the bag.
I think field trials are great, I'm in awe of what some of these trainers and their dogs can do. But I competed in competitive sports, including collegiate, my whole life up to about 22 when I graduated college. The elusive birds and the beautiful country, with my imperfect dog that I trained and myself the imperfect hunter out alone together, calls my name. No more I'm the best, your the best. Just me, the pup, and the birds for fate to decide.
Like I said I think the field trials are awesome, I wish they would show them on ESPN so I could watch. The competitive spirit is awesome and sometimes I miss playing baseball. But the middle of nowhere calls my name, so all my money goes to travel expense.

Well stated and I resemble... It's amazing how wandering open spaces with hound in the search of wild birds can get in your blood...

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:18 am

QuillGordon wrote:
aeast8 wrote:The OP mentioned desire.
I have the desire to be out in the middle of Wyoming hunting sage grouse, the mountains of Snake River in Idaho for huns and chukar, the sandhills of Nebraska for flushing sharpies and chickens and pulling out cactus of my buddies paw, the back country of Montana for a elusive bird or any other part of the country that I can walk behind my dog and not see a single other hunter. I just have the desire to be out in the middle of nowhere, just me and my pup and hopefully some points and a bird in the bag.
I think field trials are great, I'm in awe of what some of these trainers and their dogs can do. But I competed in competitive sports, including collegiate, my whole life up to about 22 when I graduated college. The elusive birds and the beautiful country, with my imperfect dog that I trained and myself the imperfect hunter out alone together, calls my name. No more I'm the best, your the best. Just me, the pup, and the birds for fate to decide.
Like I said I think the field trials are awesome, I wish they would show them on ESPN so I could watch. The competitive spirit is awesome and sometimes I miss playing baseball. But the middle of nowhere calls my name, so all my money goes to travel expense.

Well stated and I resemble... It's amazing how wandering open spaces with hound in the search of wild birds can get in your blood...

I agree 100% as I am probably a hunter first. However, watching your hound head over a hill off in the horizon and not knowing if you will ever see it in contention again, only to come over the hill see it standing birds looking like a million bucks, is a huge rush as well. I love pointing dogs period. I can't say whether I enjoy the competition of trials, or the solace of hunting wild birds, better.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:24 am

The biggest rush I get is coming over a hill
and seeing one dog on point and the bracemate honoring from 50 yards..................Cj

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:13 pm

Gertie wrote:
DonF wrote:ZipZap? That must be your's that's here. I was wondering where it came from!
Yup. Loaned it to ya last summer. Good thing the weather around here is conducive to book reading

Don't let me forget that sucker!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:15 pm

Could it possibly be so simple as the decline in hunting, the rise of the dual income family, the availability and user friendly Vdog circles, with dogs that are often trial competitive in their own right, and folks that like to see their dogs work rather than discover them on the next ridge.

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:35 pm

JKP wrote:Could it possibly be so simple as the decline in hunting, the rise of the dual income family, the availability and user friendly Vdog circles, with dogs that are often trial competitive in their own right, and folks that like to see their dogs work rather than discover them on the next ridge.

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...

Your entry level/junior league is your local weekend trials. That's your starting point you will not be running against Kane, Trey, Joker etc. You work up to that level, the foundation is in place just got to use it. You can always do walking trials if you like being that close to your dog.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:39 pm

Our AKC performance department is on our side guys... they have streamlined a lot of things for us, made the reps very user friendly, changed up some things, added some things, and are pretty dang willing to listen to ideas and suggestions.

Wyndancer is completely right... our trials actually are a money loser to AKC. Agility is where the money is these days!

It's up to the local clubs and breed clubs to encourage and promote our sports....so bring a friend next time you head out. Give a kid one of the retired pooches to run. Hold a kid stake.... give special ribbons to the little ones that run a dog. Tell them great stories, include them in the discussions. Heck pay an entry fee for a kid!

How about opening up all the stakes to all breeds and encourage entries from other breeds at your club trials? Lots can be done.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:00 pm

I am a sour mash guy.

I have nothing to add.

I meant no disrespect to our youth, if you knew how poor I was when I started trialing, you would understand it can't be a money thing.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:21 pm

I'd sure like to know how field trials are money losers to AKC. Applications done online; the premium/panel OKed online; probably under ten bucks for the sec'y packet; then the data entry of the 24 placements at the end. I type with two fingers and could get that stuff in the system in under and hour

I'm not so sure where the $300-400 my club sends them twice a year goes. I called and questioned the 'recording fee' they used to charge for every entry - if we're sending entry forms for only the placed dogs, where and what were they 'recording' for the also rans? Next trial packet, it was called a 'processing fee' :roll:

Last time we saw a rep in our area was three years ago. And before that, more years. And both times the reps were in the area for other performance events, too.

So where is their expense? What am I missing?

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:49 pm

shags wrote:I'd sure like to know how field trials are money losers to AKC. Applications done online; the premium/panel OKed online; probably under ten bucks for the sec'y packet; then the data entry of the 24 placements at the end. I type with two fingers and could get that stuff in the system in under and hour

I'm not so sure where the $300-400 my club sends them twice a year goes. I called and questioned the 'recording fee' they used to charge for every entry - if we're sending entry forms for only the placed dogs, where and what were they 'recording' for the also rans? Next trial packet, it was called a 'processing fee' :roll:

Last time we saw a rep in our area was three years ago. And before that, more years. And both times the reps were in the area for other performance events, too.

So where is their expense? What am I missing?

You do realize AKC spends A Lot of money fighting the animal rights people so you can own, compete, and breed your dogs --- if they don't do it ? who will ?
I've got a good friend that is an AKC rep --- he is somewhere doing dog stuff for the AKC about every weekend ---if it is a national trial or classic, there is a good chance he's there all week---he has to eat, stay in a motel, and gets paid ---it costs AKC money
Our Brittany club sees an AKC rep at our trials or hunt tests at least once a year. Sorry to get this post off track :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:52 pm

Quailcommando wrote:
JKP wrote:Could it possibly be so simple as the decline in hunting, the rise of the dual income family, the availability and user friendly Vdog circles, with dogs that are often trial competitive in their own right, and folks that like to see their dogs work rather than discover them on the next ridge.

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...
Your entry level/junior league is your local weekend trials. That's your starting point you will not be running against Kane, Trey, Joker etc. You work up to that level, the foundation is in place just got to use it. You can always do walking trials if you like being that close to your dog.

Don't think weekend trials qualify as entry level. What about junior handler events at a trial with reduced entry fees? Those would be entry level. Competing against top amateur's and many pro's just doesn't qualify. How about the junior handler event also include help from the judges? There is much that could be done that hasn't even been tried. Has anyone ever tried to start a 4-H event along with the shooting events and other dog events they have?

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:39 pm

Neil wrote:I am a sour mash guy.

I have nothing to add.

I meant no disrespect to our youth, if you knew how poor I was when I started trialing, you would understand it can't be a money thing.

Wha'ed I tell ya!!

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:45 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:
JKP wrote:Could it possibly be so simple as the decline in hunting, the rise of the dual income family, the availability and user friendly Vdog circles, with dogs that are often trial competitive in their own right, and folks that like to see their dogs work rather than discover them on the next ridge.

What are y'all doing to grow the ranks of the future??? Where's the farm team?? the junior leagues?? where's the entry portal??/and how hard are you working at it??? just wondering...
Your entry level/junior league is your local weekend trials. That's your starting point you will not be running against Kane, Trey, Joker etc. You work up to that level, the foundation is in place just got to use it. You can always do walking trials if you like being that close to your dog.

Don't think weekend trials qualify as entry level. What about junior handler events at a trial with reduced entry fees? Those would be entry level. Competing against top amateur's and many pro's just doesn't qualify. How about the junior handler event also include help from the judges? There is much that could be done that hasn't even been tried. Has anyone ever tried to start a 4-H event along with the shooting events and other dog events they have?

Sorry Ezzy, SOME use the weekend trial as a entry point and most of the top amateurs and pro's are very willing to help. I was glad I started at that level because you really see what it takes to compete as a handler and training level of dog.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:19 pm

Bird Hunting is my passion with dogs. I have done a few trials now that my son is no longer playing Baseball. In those days every weekend had some kind of kids game to coach or watch.

Trials are fun and there are some great people there. Have had a little success in them and know that one of my dogs is competitive. But for me I enjoy running and training my dogs in the off season. I can do that for a few hours on a Saturday and Sunday, for less money and still have time for 18 hole of golf with the wife. If I can get some of my friends to go, its more fun than a trial.

BTW - Its not the worst economy, its the worst recovery since the Depression.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:56 pm

I could be off base here....but I think that to the outsider, trialing looks like another world. You hear of dogs 5-8-1000 yds in front of the horse....riding over the ridge to see your dog 400 yds ahead on point....horses, ATV, trailers, professional trainers, the wealthy and their string of dogs etc, etc, etc...and the eyes of 99% of dog owners start to glaze over. I think y'all have a PR problem. Now I know that dogs aren't born running 1000 yds ahead, but somehow that's not coming across. Folks see a world of pros and capital expenditures with dogs that "appear" to be well beyond the edge of what they need and then they see NAVHDA, NSTRA, AKC events they can more easily relate to. Don't get me wrong, some of the nicest foot hunting Pointers I have seen have national caliber dogs in their pedigrees. Then don't forget to....that it doesn't take a newbie long to figure out that he's just there as fodder for the cannon....to push up the "dogs defeated" score for the pros. Some folks want to do that on the week-end....you just have to figure the great majority won't. Call'em weanies, sissies or cry babies all you want ... that won't increase the entries either.

Ya gotta figure that other organizations that are holding training days every week end and training owners to train their dogs and get them ready to go hunting look pretty attractive.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:14 pm

Trials we attend don't need to boost there attendance they are pretty full as it is & some of these clubs hold walking trials only so if the newbies out there want to get their feet wet they can but guess what they don't draw the big entries so they have no room to complain if they don't go & not many if any pros run in them.
Another thing is we are ALL newbies at one time so how did we get started it wasn't by setting at home & have some one drag our butts there.

There will always be people with more money more dogs etc but you can't beat them setting at home on the couch.Another thing is have you ever been to a trial every stake & every dog is not for those 800 to 1000 yard dogs &
yes the dogs that range that far all the time ARE BORN that way & they don't come along all that often so if you don't know what your talking about say nothing,now you want to say I'm arrogant because I'm telling you the real truth so be it
but until you understand any of it I guess all us trial people will sound that way.

We don't belittle your venues so don't belittle ours keep on with what you like & we will do the same.

If I remember right you were one of the guys that has told me you don't believe in one winner where on dog takes home the prize & that's one reason you ran in the venue you run.If I got that wrong I apologize but if it was you why do you even comment on trials.Why not stick with what you know & help some one in that venue instead of trying to change another you don't even know much about?

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:46 pm

JKP wrote: Now I know that dogs aren't born running 1000 yds ahead, but somehow that's not coming across.

As Ted said It is 100% God given.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:59 pm

Ninevehn wrote:
birddogger wrote: The worst economic situation since the depression is a myth. Nothing against you but it just shows how the news media and political sound bites influence what a lot of people believe.
I've seen plenty of charts and analysis holding up my assertion, but I'd surely appreciate a pm with information to the contrary. Not sure this particular thread is really the place for a bigger discussion.

PM sent and I apologize for participating in taking the thread off track.

Charlie

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:20 pm

Computer systems ain't cheap. Every title change, every title earned, every point earned, every dog run in a stake is all entered into the system. Someone, or several someones get a salary to do that job. And they aren't getting paid top dollar!

Let's not forget, it's not just pointing dog trials, but spaniel, lab, beagle, etc., etc. Each sport has it's own set of criteria, titles etc. Add herding trials, lure coursing.... etc., etc. Performance covers all of these things, all of these breeds. One of the things that held back the Grand title was getting programming done. Apparently it's not quite as simple as just typing in a couple of names.

Then ya got keeping track of judges, ok'ing events where half the paperwork isn't complete, and not all clubs put it in online. Some are still old school fill out the paperwork. Someone has to go through all the results from how many events held every weekend around the country, enter all that info into the system, check numbers on dogs to make sure they are correct etc. etc.

then there is a building to house all these folks who do all this work, and trust me, the Raleigh facility isn't a big fancy set up. I was actually shocked to see how plain jane it was. Insurance, paychecks, travel expenses, etc etc.

Haven't seen a rep in three years? That's a good thing in a way, means no one has sent up any red flags for your event. But if you would like to have one there, a simple phone call for a request and it can probably happen. The Reps we have today are helpful, easy to get along with and will work their tail off for your club if you ask them for a hand. They are a FAR sight better then what we had when I started in the sport. Back then they were there to try to make you sweat, today... they are there to help.

It's not a perfect system, but in my mind the powers to be in Performance are trying hard to make AKC much more user friendly and are there for our sport. Just my opinion of course, your mileage may vary!