Decline of Field Trials

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:54 pm

I just returned from the Bird Dog Museum where I saw Rick Smith and Shadow enshrined.

The advancing age of participants and the lamenting of those that have passed brought many to be concerned about the future of field trials. The most often cause offered was the financial commitment of horses, new trucks, gooseneck trailers, fuel and motels.

My response, in the early 70's I remember pulling a one horse single axle homemade trailer with an old beat up Dodge pickup and a plywood dog box. Prompting Bernie Crane to add, "And we slept in the truck seat or piled up 4 or 5 in a rundown motel room". Whole families staying in tents and cooking out was common.

It is not money that is keeping the young away, it is desire.

Just my thoughts,

Neil

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:06 pm

If it is lack if desire than what do you think is causing this lack of desire ?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:24 pm

whatsnext wrote:If it is lack if desire than what do you think is causing this lack of desire ?

No one introduced them, or helped them get started, laziness, electronics, expectations of instant gratification, less and less hard work ethic, "everyone" wins, no loser mentality, etc.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:51 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
whatsnext wrote:If it is lack if desire than what do you think is causing this lack of desire ?
No one introduced them, or helped them get started, laziness, electronics, expectations of instant gratification, less and less hard work ethic, "everyone" wins, no loser mentality, etc.

What he said.

And I think in general we expect the finer things in life from a young age. My son, who is a pretty rugged outdoorsman, would noy even consider putting his family in our first home, which was best described as rustic. And even though he won a horseback open stake with his puppy on his pony when he was 8 years old, he did not continue to trial. In his case, other interests, he has never been particularly competitive, and most importantly he did not want to be away from his family or drag them unwillingly along as I did.

All sports seem to wax and wane; not many people playing billards these days and few played soccer in my youth.

But I think the main reason is the decline in those with pointing dogs, or at least those that feel a need to brag on them.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:57 pm

A thought him me today regarding this. What if this lull is in part caused by technology? More people raised living gaming, computers, phones... And less people raised appreciating the outdoors? A change in the direction of our country as a whole. No desire to give it a try. Less wildlife, less exposure, less drive to pursue it. We initially blamed financial challenges, but I think you are correct in ruling that out. I go to our national every year in booneville and I sleep in the back of my vehicle on a blowup matress. I have a couple friends who came down from Canada, rented a uhaul van, and slept in the back of that.
If you really want to do it, you make it work.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:19 pm

Trialing a dog also requires a lot of time and money... something in short demand with most young people (myself included)

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:25 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Trialing a dog also requires a lot of time and money... something in short demand with most young people (myself included)

My point is it has always been so.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:25 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Trialing a dog also requires a lot of time and money... something in short demand with most young people (myself included)

Agreed...BUT there is always a way to start...on a smaller level. I began in NSTRA here-and-there. Saved a few bucks every year and got another dog and tried the AF venue. Made a connection with a local pro who helped me immensely. We traded services so he and i benefited, I continue to do side work and eat bag lunches every day...take small steps. The guys with dualies and gooseneck trailers are in the minority. One car with a crate or two in the back is a GREAT way to start. Meet people, make friends, split costs, help w training and before you know it you have 4 dogs a 4-door Silverado with a 3 hole aluminum box and a horse that you have to feed and tack up...all baby steps...

If you really want to do it, you make it work.

buckshot1 · Post by **buckshot1** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:51 pm

I would also add that declining wild bird populations and access to wild birds may have something do with it. Most people I know who occasionally field trial, myself included, also bird hunt. I wouldn't ever own a dog just to field trial. As people give up bird hunting because of declining bird populations, I'd expect they'd give up field trialing too.

Another factor is that it feels like you have to work six days a week and move to a big city to get ahead in the world these days. That doesn't leave much time for field trials. It's something I deal with all the time when I'm trying to decide whether I can take 3 or 4 days off to go to some field trial after I just took a week off to go hunting and get my dogs on some wild birds. Not saying that older generations haven't dealt with these same conflicts.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:27 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Trialing a dog also requires a lot of time and money... something in short demand with most young people (myself included)

Well ..... $1.5 0 a pigeon , launcher not essential, gas for ........km ( close in my case) + $50 entry fee ( I spend more on coffee monthly.) Biggest expense is an e collar . I think it is more that the younger generation has other interests. The younger ones participating are often from parents who participated.

Yes time is needed and that may be the real factor.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:36 pm

KwikIrish wrote:A thought him me today regarding this. What if this lull is in part caused by technology? More people raised living gaming, computers, phones... And less people raised appreciating the outdoors? A change in the direction of our country as a whole. No desire to give it a try. Less wildlife, less exposure, less drive to pursue it. We initially blamed financial challenges, but I think you are correct in ruling that out. I go to our national every year in booneville and I sleep in the back of my vehicle on a blowup matress. I have a couple friends who came down from Canada, rented a uhaul van, and slept in the back of that.
If you really want to do it, you make it work.

Think this pretty well explains it. Society has changed. The only games available a few years back were the games we made up and played outdoors. Today the games are electronic, played indoors, while our family is in a larger town and has little outside access that people feel comfortable in. Trials and trailers haven't help much but they are not the main reason they are on the downside slope.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:43 pm

I was having a discussion with a Pro Trainer about things that are hurting trials..Mainly the little weekend trials and that there is such emphasis being out that The Hour Stakes are the only thing that matters. Out west Paul Doiron can make or break a trial he supports the weekend trials can one imagine of he took that Hour Stake attitude. Some people can't afford the time off. Or when a new person comes to a trial and isn't welcomed, A friendly Hi will go a long ways.
or when a new person is in their first brace nervous and making mistakes left and right and a judge that helps them out rather then shuts their book and goes off to the other judge.

Desire to run. Yes we are in an age of give me a ribbon just for showing up mentality But there are people who really want to try distance is another factor out west you are lucky if a trial is only 2 hours away many are well over 3 plus hours. Gas is expensive and then trials are hauling trailers for boundary lines since we do not have mowed grass strips to follow plus getting water hauled out here in AZ the clubs rent a tanker of water, Getting the people to drive hours each way to haul trailer out and or bird then have to drive hours back home to get their trailer and stuff and drive back out..it is very hard for working people to do this with out having to take a couple days off of work
Much less if the only trials are Horseback handled as I hear a few judges make comments how they will not put up a foot handler in a horseback trial. Not all judges are this way Thankfully, but I do know a few like that and wow does that really do good for new people. Or Judges that judge the wrong end of the lead, it shouldn't matter who is handling a dog judges job is to judge the dog. Then the other one which also hurts a trial is people who refuse to put dogs in because of a certain judge. That is a double edge sword right there as Yes Shame on the judge for not judging dogs no matter who or how the dog is handled but also shame on the person holding their entries back because of it as it is the CLUB that is hurt as stakes are dropped or trials are cancelled due to lack of entries.
Loosing grounds to run.

PS Sharon where are you getting pigeons for 1.50 I know people over in Cal that are paying about 4 bucks for them flying rats

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:49 pm

in Ontario at an every Sat. small game auction in town.... it would be quite a trip for you though

(Hard to find them in 6 feet of snow right now though. :roll: )

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:58 pm

I believe it is mostly cultural. As described, entertainment has been transformed dramatically. The formative ages are over run with electronically created stimulus. That is a difficult habit to break; even if we felt compelled to try and frankly I don’t think as a whole we care to. Those of us who wish to continue have to find ways to bridge some gaps and hope that we can do so without losing all of the tradition and format.
I for one believe that means tighter partnerships with different competitive venues, one may be a gateway to the next. It means sanctioned and better access to results and recognition. Clubs and organizations need social media chairs/experts to share updates. I wish things were different, they aren’t. Unfortunately, that demands some changes.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:05 pm

I have always wanted to try field trials but i have always worked weekends because i needed the money so i can say for a fact why i have not tried them yet, That being said i am trying to make it happen by this fall if things keep going the right way.The only two thing's that i can really agree with is a lack of appreciation and enjoyment of the outdoor's and people dropping out of bird hunting because of the decline in wild bird numbers and there for a lack of introduction to this sport.A fair amount of people on this board always resort to laziness,work ethic etc etc.... of the younger geneation and IF that is the kind of reception younger people get at these events maybe you have the answer and do not even realize it.

The guys i work with are 20 plus years older than me and they say when they were my age they had weekends off most of the time and toy's in the garage, (snow mobiles,car's,camper's) so to say it is not money or time i think the older guy's i work with give you a look when WE are working Saturday's and Sunday's most of the year for time and a half.

AlbertaChessie · Post by **AlbertaChessie** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:11 pm

I can say that in my case I got tired of the old boys club, and was tired of hearing my british bred labs and chesapeakes weren't the way to go. It has gone from being a measuring stick of a field dogs capability in the actual hunting field, to who's LAB could do the best in a LAB orientated competition. Trial dogs no longer, in many cases, make the best hunting dogs. Far too many are bred for trialing and trialing alone. You still have hunt tests, which in my opinion are a much better gauge as to the quality of a dog, but still not where it should be. Ive said it a million times, when they start holding tests in -20 Celsius weather and one of the tasks is breaking ice over moving water, with a 12 pound cripple in its mouth I might get interested again.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:24 pm

The generation gap cannot be solved, as long as i can remember, have read in books, seen on the TV, heard on radio, read in Morse code,seen depicted in hieroglyphics, etc... Somebody has said you are too young and or you are too old to deserve, understand, blah,blah,blah... If you are inclined to quit because you don't like the way you are treated, if you believe that you, your dogs, etc...can be kept down by the good ole boys or good ole girls, then you are going to struggle. I am not saying it will not happen on a given day, it will. To anyone and everyone it is the nature of competition. How you react to that is a signal (in my opinion) to your ability not only to succeed but to be a productive contributor.

Heres why...This stuff is all volunteer work; the formation and the governance. None of us are customers at a trial, our entries pay expenses to allow us to participate, the money doesn't leave the organization ( I know..I know but if it happens it's just theft). Accountability and responsibility is collective, in a sense everyone is in charge which means no one is in charge...there is no greater or more fertile ground for chaos. See the PTC, Little League, youth Soccer meetings etc...EVERY Molehill becomes a mountain because somebody in their own perspective doesn't like something, and the floor belongs to everyone. It matters not what the venue is, this chaotic possibility exists.

I believe that if your skin is too thin you will not make it...it is going to be very easy to find a reason to feel like you are outside looking in...

big swill · Post by **big swill** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:41 pm

I haven't posted on here in quite a while, but the posts on this thread interest me a great deal. As an admitted newbie to the bird dog world (been at this almost a year now) I think I see things from a different perspective. There have been some really good points made so far. At the trials I've been to thus far I've seen a lot of the things already mentioned. I went to NSTRA trial for the first time back in November. I was basically left with the impression that this particular trial was nothing more than a "good ole boys" club. Granted there were a couple of folks who were open and friendly, but, frankly, I could care less about going back to a trial hosted by this club. The AKC events I've been to aren't that much different, at least the ones I've been to. I've seen handlers complain to the gunners about letting the bird get too far before shooting, making the retrieve harder, I've seen handlers complain about bird placement being too difficult or accuse the teens planting the birds of not putting any out. This is not what someone new to the sport needs to see, let alone the younger folks.

I agree that too many times younger folks want the participation ribbon and when they don't get it many of them quit. Getting the trophy for just showing up has killed the competitive spirit. But there are other things that don't help attract a younger crowd as well. As the father of 14 and 11 year old sons, I can tell you that kids don't want to hear someone who looks like their grandpa complaining about how it used to be. They don't care how many wild birds existed in the 50's and 60's. They don't care about loss of habitat at that age.

While I don't think it's wise to forget or forgo tradition, living in the past won't change the future. You can't get young kids interested in anything with a "in the old days" approach. You've got to relate to what they are, not what you were. I have yet to meet a kid who wanted to hear that much about how things were back in the old days.You didn't want to hear it either at that age; my guess is you didn't appreciate it until you were older. You can't push a 100 year old image on a 20 year old (or younger) generation and expect them to buy into it.

People can complain about money all they want, but isn't it funny how folks always seem to have the money for whatever it is they deem important? I'm guilty of that as much as anyone.

All I've heard since I've got into bird dogs is how it's a dying sport. Yet not many folks are willing to even acknowledge that maybe part of the problem isn't always the younger generations.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:13 pm

Field trialing is not dying, but it certainly is not flourishing as it once was.

The lack of upland bird hunting opportunities is the single largest contributor to the current situation, I believe.

Almost without exception, the diehard field trialer started out as a youngster with a scattergun walking miles with their dad, or uncle, following the dogs and learning to love the hunt and love the dogwork that produced the birds. They also learned that the reward of a bird in the bag came only after a considerable effort on their part...walking in fallow fields, through cover, thick and thin, wet and dry, and then a good shot.

Without upland bird hunting opportunities, there is very little reason for someone to have a bird dog, let alone two or three.

Without upland bird hunting opportunities, there is no avenue for a father to introduce his children to the thrills of upland hunting, encourage them to come afield with dogs and ultimately to light the fire of bird hunting over dogs in their souls... that it takes to carry on.

Without upland bird hunting opportunities there will therefore be no new generation that is excited about going afield with a dog, in search of feathered game and THAT is where future field trialers come from....kids that grew up bird hunting.

Even with all of that, many folks cannot stay in field trialing because it becomes a veritable black hole for discretionary income and available recreational time. Serious field trialers very often have no other outdoor pursuits that they practice with any regularity, simply because the dog stuff consumes all their available time and attention.

Horseback field trialing will most likely revert to what it was in the days before WWII... a sport of the landed gentry and the wealthy, especially in the South, with the bulk of competitive dogs being trained and handled by professionals. I see evidence that it is already headed that way.

RayG

Cicada · Post by **Cicada** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:38 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Field trialing is not dying, but it certainly is not flourishing as it once was.

The lack of upland bird hunting opportunities is the single largest contributor to the current situation, I believe.

RayG

Well said Ray

In the last 15 years I have seen far more hunting areas lost than new ones I have found, hopefully that will change now that I am retired and have a lot more time to explore

Grant

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:45 pm

Ray g I believe with any hobby, sport that the highest level of competition will always end up in the who has the most money,time and resources club. I think it is just the nature of competition to keep raising the bar on performance.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:51 pm

Recession, $4 a gallon fuel, $200 or more a ton hay, pasture, boarding, trailer, truck, knowledge of breaking a dog, lack of mentors, do I need to go on??

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:03 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:I can say that in my case I got tired of the old boys club, and was tired of hearing my british bred labs and chesapeakes weren't the way to go. It has gone from being a measuring stick of a field dogs capability in the actual hunting field, to who's LAB could do the best in a LAB orientated competition. Trial dogs no longer, in many cases, make the best hunting dogs. Far too many are bred for trialing and trialing alone. You still have hunt tests, which in my opinion are a much better gauge as to the quality of a dog, but still not where it should be. Ive said it a million times, when they start holding tests in -20 Celsius weather and one of the tasks is breaking ice over moving water, with a 12 pound cripple in its mouth I might get interested again.

Sounds like the typical rhetoric of someone who couldn't be competitive.

aeast8 · Post by **aeast8** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:10 pm

At age 32 I was finally able to get a bird dog and start hunting upland. I wanted to do it since I was a boy when my father had some pointers in the backyard. Due to the declining bird numbers he got rid of them before I was able to hunt. But the memories and desire stuck with me and I was finally able to make it happen 3 years ago. Having to wait till after college and getting a career going was when I could finally afford this great luxury of training a dog and traveling great distances to get on wild birds. Of course I wanted to try some field trials. After doing 2 I came to the conclusion that I probably wouldn't do anymore. The reason for me is because I spend 50 to 100 dollars to spend 2 hours driving for 10 minutes of bird hunting in a trial. For 50 to 100 dollars I can grab a couple of buddies and go to a game farm and hunt for 3 hours with a lot more work for my dog. I am not a game farm type of guy but it was more fun for me to game farm then field trial. I would much rather be on wild birds then a game farm but not a lot of birds around KC and I can only afford to go on so many hunting trips. I think field trials are great but just not enough bird action for the money and time driving.

41magsnub · Post by **41magsnub** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:18 pm

Speaking as a person who has never so much as attended a field trial and is new at owning their own hunting dog...

There are no upland game events of any kind anywhere near western Montana (unless I'm looking in the wrong places and I'd love to hear about them). There are lots in eastern MT all 5+ hours away. Plus, it is crazy expensive and time consuming to own a horse so I would be a walking guy - which seems to not be very welcome based on forum information. I'm not feeling a big pull to drive 10 hours to an event.

Upland hunting is definitely on the downturn, at least with the folks I know. I work in a company with 50 employees in Missoula, all but 5 of us are guys in our 20's and 30's. I'm the only person with an active bird dog. In my circle of friends and acquaintances outside of work, a couple of guys have labs that are kind of trained for waterfowl and they go out maybe twice per year if at all. Lots of guys big game hunt casually as it is generally a much lesser commitment.

In fairness, I haven't been as active in pheasants forever as I should - never made it to a banquet. That might find some more like interested folks.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:18 pm

Here is a question for some of our more "senior" trailer members.....Has there ever really been a lot of "youth" in field trials??? At 32yrs old I am one of the youngest competitors that I ever see at our local trials, but it seems like the ability to have the time and money to compete may not come until at least in your 30's....
I am trying my best to compete, personally my biggest problem is time, I am in a on call rotation with my job, every couple weeks I am on call for the weekend, which makes it hard to attend a great deal of trials....

First impressions for newcomers definitely seems to always be a topic. I go to trials put on by at least 5 different clubs, but really its mostly the same people, and everyone was overwhelmingly helpful and friendly to me when I first started. But a rough first experience would shut the door before it even opens....I remember pretty well last fall, we had a Brittany breeder from about 4hrs away show up with some puppies and derbies to give it a go, never tried a trial before. HB trial, they didn't have horses....He went around once on foot...By the second brace he was in he had gotten a quick riding lesson and a horse for him to ride, offered up, he never asked. Same for his wife so she could ride in the gallery and watch instead of waiting in the parking lot.....I don't think that they placed as well as they hoped, but they had fun, and were told by multiple people to come on back and we'd find a horse for them to ride.....My bet is they will be back...........
My first ever trial, ran open derby. I told bracemate and judged that I had never done this before, and apologized in advance for any mistakes I will make. They were very friendly and told me not to worry as they would keep me on track. This was open derby, a pro was my bracemate, he picked up at about 5 minutes as his dog wasn't getting in front at all...had his scout take it back to camp, then scouted for me the rest of the way, then gave me a bunch of great advice and tips after the brace. Both judges came up to me after the class and also gave me some advice and encouragement......oh yeah, then the club gave me a ribbon, plaque and dog food( after I went home figuring there was no way I would place in a 16 dog open derby class)

But it takes good helpful people to make other feel comfortable........

Also, if you want to be competitive, its not exactly easy.....Getting and keeping a dog broke for trials takes time and effort...Its one thing to show up and do well in puppy and derby stakes, but its a big jump to get that dog finished to run broke.....Trust me on that one......Having said all that....
Locally we there has been at least 4-5 people that have started regularly attending trials as new people in the last couple yrs...I would consider that positive recruitment for sure. Myself being one

AlbertaChessie · Post by **AlbertaChessie** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:25 pm

slistoe wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote:I can say that in my case I got tired of the old boys club, and was tired of hearing my british bred labs and chesapeakes weren't the way to go. It has gone from being a measuring stick of a field dogs capability in the actual hunting field, to who's LAB could do the best in a LAB orientated competition. Trial dogs no longer, in many cases, make the best hunting dogs. Far too many are bred for trialing and trialing alone. You still have hunt tests, which in my opinion are a much better gauge as to the quality of a dog, but still not where it should be. Ive said it a million times, when they start holding tests in -20 Celsius weather and one of the tasks is breaking ice over moving water, with a 12 pound cripple in its mouth I might get interested again.
Sounds like the typical rhetoric of someone who couldn't be competitive.

Sure. Quite probably so! However, based on my location compared to yours, length of our bird seasons compared to yours, and a definite overall game population vs human population in our area versus yours dictates that my 1 yr old dog has retrieved more birds this past single season than any of yours will in a lifetime. If my dogs cant do the lab tailored 'competitions', but excel as actual working dogs...well then whos the one that actually cant compete? Your little pups kick butt at running around pylons and chasing down bumpers as 65 year old judges base their opinions only on the comparison of the last dog, retrieving his bumpers and running his pylons in controlled conditions. Your dog probably knows and understands more hand and whistle commands than even i do, awesome! My dog kicks butt at breaking ice. My dog also retrieved over 380 birds this past fall alone. My dog never breaks nor makes unneccessary sounds. My dog has not let 1 cripple elude him in his first season as a gundog. My dog hunts in 12 inches of snow and -27 celsius....for hours. My dog hangs out on the couch with me while i type stuff like this! Whos dog is more competitive again? If its still up for debate we can compare birds brought back next december if you like.

Not trying to start a peeing match here. Was only givig my own experience, but no need to call someone you dont know out with no real basis for a statement. If you are looking to compare or take jabs at go right ahead! My dogs can handle their own.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:30 pm

There must be a pretty good number of people on here who are trialers and also so have adult children. How many of them are in trialing. It would seem likely that someone who was raised in trialing would be more likely to do it than somebody who wasn't.
In spite of what a few people on here think money is a major factor. No doubt if you want to bad enough you can find a away. Most people with kids in school and multiple sports are not going to have time and finances for training and trialing and don't want to hear how the old guys did things. That was a different time. Most live in some sort of housing development where restrictions on owning one dog are quite stringent and owning two or three is impossible. Most don't have acreage to keep a horse or two or facilities and land to train a pointing dog. Most family people just can't do it. Most don't want to. I don't think there ever was very many people with young families in trialing. I sell a lot of puppies to 45 year olds who are getting there first dog,
In the early nineties you could walk all over South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota and Montana and not find a bird. There were still trials. So the lack of bird hunting opportunities, at least up here is not a reason.
Trialers tend to scare people away by bragging about how fast and far their dogs will run. Most family people don't want a dog like that. There is a arrogant attitude at many trials among the judges and people in charge that turns a lot of people off.
The kids today are not any lazier than they ever were, I have heard that all my life. They do have different values. My son coaches High school wrestling and little league If you would go to their practices you may change your mind.
Trials and test may be going the way of the dinosaur and all we will be able to do is wave them bye bye...............Cj

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:33 pm

As a previous trialer and old (67) person that loved trialing, I just ran out of energy. I would rather spend that energy on loading the dogs in the truck and driving 6-7 hours and spending a few days at my pace getting the dogs into wild birds. Having a good day in the field with my wife and dogs is more important to me than a ribbon these days. Do the dogs know if they win a trial? Is that ribbon more important for the dog or for the owner? I guess we all have different ways to live vicariously through our dogs. I guess at my age I've just begun to appreciate them more on a one on one basis. If they satisfy me, that's all that's important. Use to judge. We would kid that there was one particular pro that would complain that we got the placements wrong even if he got all four placements. Just saying some people, imo, take it way too seriously.

uplandnut · Post by **uplandnut** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:49 pm

I would agree with a lot of the comments that have been posted here, but the thing I see being the biggest issue is the loss of hunting ground. Not only does it make it further for people to drive to go hunting, it is that much further to get to areas to train your dogs. If you can find a place close to home to train then you have the expense of buying birds, if you cannot house birds of your own then you have to drive to pick up birds before you even get to training. I agree that if you want to do something you will find a way but what you may end up doing to "find a way" will also affect your time available. I got into trials 2 springs ago and found I really enjoyed it, that being said I will never be able to commit to a fall trial as my work schedule doesn't allow me to have guaranteed days off in the fall. Therefore I take advantage of the spring trials in my area, as a way to extend my bird "hunting" season.

I also agree with the impression of the "ole boys club" that you get the feeling of at some trials. Just the few I have been to I can tell which ones I will continue to go to and which ones I really don't care if I ever go to again. The crazy part of this is that the people that have put the sour taste in my mouth have been at the trials I will continue to go to as well, but there are some trial organizers that just have better attitudes, and overshadow the negative attitudes.

I would like to know form some trial organizers why they don't get the word out more for there trials? The club I belong to is just as guilty as any other or worse. It is very tough to find out about some of these events, obviously there are you navhda and akc tests and the breeders usually will help set up new puppy owners with contact and maybe even an invite to the club training days, but most of the other organizations don't hardly get there event out for the public to know about. Going to venues that promote the sport are great but I don't think they really introduce new "blood" to the sport, they just try to draw off the other competitions that already exist. That being said I am not really sure what a person can do other than introducing new people to the sport by taking them out on some outings. I would be more than happy to show some new people some of my favorite spots if it brings in new people to the sport, would you? Most people only talk about how much time they put in to find "there" spot and they aren't going to show to some "newbie" that's just going to go back and hunt there area without them. Have a little faith in your friends not to screw you like that, after all they are "your" friends.

And just for the sake of beating a "dead horse" money is an issue for people. Why spend the money to trial a dog that you will never breed? when you could have a new car or truck with the money you would have pot into a dog, factoring in trainer fees, bird cost, travel expense, and dog gear? I love running dogs but no matter what you can't take out the finance factor, dogs are expensive, and the more you have the more they cost add to that the trials you need to have a horse for and you can run some people right into the poor house.

fwiw. my opinion comes from having 7 dogs and 12 horses

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:04 pm

KwikIrish wrote:A thought him me today regarding this. What if this lull is in part caused by technology? More people raised living gaming, computers, phones... And less people raised appreciating the outdoors? A change in the direction of our country as a whole. No desire to give it a try. Less wildlife, less exposure, less drive to pursue it. We initially blamed financial challenges, but I think you are correct in ruling that out. I go to our national every year in booneville and I sleep in the back of my vehicle on a blowup matress. I have a couple friends who came down from Canada, rented a uhaul van, and slept in the back of that.
If you really want to do it, you make it work.

Seven and a half hours per day????? Is that how long kids sleep? Are in school? NO, it's how many hours per day a kid is on an electronic device. It's sickening to me. Childhood and adolescent obesity has skyrocketed. Kids hardly ever get outside anymore. Arghh. It's sad. That has got to factor into this.

mm · Post by mm » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:16 pm

For me the thing is horses. If no rental horses are available I don't go. I hear the wrangler charges the clubs a lot and some just had to cut the rental horses out. A lot of the trials have one or more walking stakes and I like to go to them but if there is only one walking stake and no rental horses for the other horse stakes I sometimes pass. Its not much fun to drive 4 hours for one stake if you have one dog. Most of the walking trials do very well here in the east. A couple of trials have added walking stakes on Friday and one had 20 dogs the last time. I think walking trials is the way to get new people as a lot of people just don't ride horses.
mm

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:48 pm

whatsnext wrote:Ray g I believe with any hobby, sport that the highest level of competition will always end up in the who has the most money,time and resources club. I think it is just the nature of competition to keep raising the bar on performance.

That is no doubt quite true...but just who is going to be putting on all those weekend trials in about ten years? Who will be available to judge? Who can afford to own a horse...or 3 or 4 dogs? Who is going to be there to plant birds or drive the dog wagon? Where are they going to get volunteers, typically amateurs, to do all these things?

The big trials and championships will still be there and be well taken care of. But the local trials, the amateur stakes and the like, are going to be scrambling for help that simply will not be there. Without local amateurs to volunteer to put on trials and judge, they will go away. The only local trials that may hang in there are cover dog stakes, because 1) there are still enough grouse in some areas to attract and keep a viable population of hunters, some of whom will transition into trialers or at least be available in a supporting capacity...and 2) because cover dog trialing does not require the huge capital outlay that conventional trialing does.

Maybe NSTRA will hang in there as well for some of the same reasons. I don't know. I hope so.

RayG

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:59 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:
slistoe wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote:I can say that in my case I got tired of the old boys club, and was tired of hearing my british bred labs and chesapeakes weren't the way to go. It has gone from being a measuring stick of a field dogs capability in the actual hunting field, to who's LAB could do the best in a LAB orientated competition. Trial dogs no longer, in many cases, make the best hunting dogs. Far too many are bred for trialing and trialing alone. You still have hunt tests, which in my opinion are a much better gauge as to the quality of a dog, but still not where it should be. Ive said it a million times, when they start holding tests in -20 Celsius weather and one of the tasks is breaking ice over moving water, with a 12 pound cripple in its mouth I might get interested again.
Sounds like the typical rhetoric of someone who couldn't be competitive.
Sure. Quite probably so! However, based on my location compared to yours, length of our bird seasons compared to yours, and a definite overall game population vs human population in our area versus yours dictates that my 1 yr old dog has retrieved more birds this past single season than any of yours will in a lifetime. If my dogs cant do the lab tailored 'competitions', but excel as actual working dogs...well then whos the one that actually cant compete? Your little pups kick butt at running around pylons and chasing down bumpers as 65 year old judges base their opinions only on the comparison of the last dog, retrieving his bumpers and running his pylons in controlled conditions. Your dog probably knows and understands more hand and whistle commands than even i do, awesome! My dog kicks butt at breaking ice. My dog also retrieved over 380 birds this past fall alone. My dog never breaks nor makes unneccessary sounds. My dog has not let 1 cripple elude him in his first season as a gundog. My dog hunts in 12 inches of snow and -27 celsius....for hours. My dog hangs out on the couch with me while i type stuff like this! Whos dog is more competitive again? If its still up for debate we can compare birds brought back next december if you like.

Not trying to start a peeing match here. Was only givig my own experience, but no need to call someone you dont know out with no real basis for a statement. If you are looking to compare or take jabs at go right ahead! My dogs can handle their own.

Hey, I retrieved a couple of hundred birds myself one year. Waded armpit deep while breaking ice for a couple of them. I can't really recall if I made any unnecessary sounds as the water rose up though. Do I get a doggie cookie? I remember eating a Milk-Bone once when I was about 10 years old - maybe that is why I was so good at it.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:57 am

whatsnext wrote:A fair amount of people on this board always resort to laziness,work ethic etc etc.... of the younger geneation and IF that is the kind of reception younger people get at these events maybe you have the answer and do not even realize it..

I think this says/explains a lot of maybe why.
Who wants to be criticized because they're of the younger generation. It pops up more and more here and other places of people putting fault on the younger generation as a whole for maybe their own families kids faults. Not every person of younger generation is one of what ill call the old timers reasoning.
I sure wouldn't want to run or even talk with guys who look down on me like im a piece of dirt because im soft skinned and no grey anywhere.
Respect is a two way street.
Just a thought. .

brianb · Post by **brianb** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:26 am

cjhills wrote: In spite of what a few people on here think money is a major factor. No doubt if you want to bad enough you can find a away. Most people with kids in school and multiple sports are not going to have time and finances for training and trialing and don't want to hear how the old guys did things. That was a different time. Most live in some sort of housing development where restrictions on owning one dog are quite stringent and owning two or three is impossible. Most don't have acreage to keep a horse or two or facilities and land to train a pointing dog. Most family people just can't do it.
I don't think there ever was very many people with young families in trialing. I sell a lot of puppies to 45 year olds who are getting there first dog,
Trialers tend to scare people away by bragging about how fast and far their dogs will run. Most family people don't want a dog like that. There is a arrogant attitude at many trials among the judges and people in charge that turns a lot of people off.
The kids today are not any lazier than they ever were, I have heard that all my life. They do have different values. My son coaches High school wrestling and little league If you would go to their practices you may change your mind.
Trials and test may be going the way of the dinosaur and all we will be able to do is wave them bye bye...............Cj

I'm 41 and just bought my first pointing dog. I have kids in school. This sums it up for me. I don't think kids are any lazier these days. They play with their Ipods. I played with my Atari 2600. Their activities and sports are just more structured and time consuming then when I was a kid. Any free time I have I try to get out and hunt and do a little training. Spending a weekend at a field trial would be tough. My wife wouldn't go. I go to a few local ones and watch. I don't get the sense of the old boys network. Everyone there is pretty helpful and friendly.

I would love to have acres of land and kennels with multiple dogs and horses. My job in the city and expense of owning land is prohibitive. I can have two dogs max in my subdivision.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:39 am

brianb wrote:Spending a weekend at a field trial would be tough. My wife wouldn't go. I go to a few local ones and watch. I don't get the sense of the old boys network. Everyone there is pretty helpful and friendly. I would love to have acres of land and kennels with multiple dogs and horses. My job in the city and expense of owning land is prohibitive. I can have two dogs max in my subdivision.

Brian, you and I are in the same boat...I trial - wife wont go (daughter does

)...local clubs very friendly...live in a 1/2 acre lot...two dog max at home.... I am trying to find those few acres in the country. Hopefully our paths will cross soon (I see you are in SE WI). Our local club (http://www.12oclockftc.com/) is not the good ol boys club and we have younger members (under 40) plus kids. We would LOVE to have any of you stop out and join us for a weekend, We have walking trials and are always looking to help others! I will be at Pheasant fest this weekend PROMOTING walking field trials! Stop by booth 440 and introduce yourselves! http://www.nbhadog.org/

Brian where did you get your pointer and what trials have you been able to attend? I would LOVE to help you out and answer any questions you may have!

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:31 am

uplandnut wrote:I would agree with a lot of the comments that have been posted here, but the thing I see being the biggest issue is the loss of hunting ground. Not only does it make it further for people to drive to go hunting, it is that much further to get to areas to train your dogs. If you can find a place close to home to train then you have the expense of buying birds, if you cannot house birds of your own then you have to drive to pick up birds before you even get to training. I agree that if you want to do something you will find a way but what you may end up doing to "find a way" will also affect your time available. I got into trials 2 springs ago and found I really enjoyed it, that being said I will never be able to commit to a fall trial as my work schedule doesn't allow me to have guaranteed days off in the fall. Therefore I take advantage of the spring trials in my area, as a way to extend my bird "hunting" season.

x2. A lot of people simply do not have the space to exercise their dog, much less train them and/or kill birds for their dogs. This was a huge pain for me, trying to find a place to run my dogs and train on them. Fortunately, that isn't a problem now, but I can see how many people can be turned off by the lack of available ground.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:46 am

I just returned to the sport after a 15 year hiatus. The biggest change I noticed is the attitude of running the hour championship stakes over participating in the local weekender. It appears that there are a lot more hour championship now than there used to be. I don't know but it seems that the hour championships have sucked the life out of the weekend trial and the weekend trail is what provided the growth to the sport. Just an observation of mine.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:49 am

uplandnut wrote:I would agree with a lot of the comments that have been posted here, but the thing I see being the biggest issue is the loss of hunting ground. Not only does it make it further for people to drive to go hunting, it is that much further to get to areas to train your dogs. If you can find a place close to home to train then you have the expense of buying birds, if you cannot house birds of your own then you have to drive to pick up birds before you even get to training. I agree that if you want to do something you will find a way but what you may end up doing to "find a way" will also affect your time available. I got into trials 2 springs ago and found I really enjoyed it, that being said I will never be able to commit to a fall trial as my work schedule doesn't allow me to have guaranteed days off in the fall. Therefore I take advantage of the spring trials in my area, as a way to extend my bird "hunting" season.

This is my biggest hurdle is places to train. I live in the city. I have a couple places I can hunt, which are a 30-60 min drive for me so not to bad, but if I were to be lugging out pigeons with me for the sake of training (since we don't always come in contact with wild birds) it would really become a hassle. Also, I have a spaniel. The closest club / training group meets about 3 hours from me. Now, I have decided that I want to try my hand at hunt tests (and trials depending on how that goes) so I am planning on making the drive a few times this spring so I can train with others and get some hands on experience but it definitely won't be an every week type thing, I simply cannot afford the gas or the time to be going that far all the time for training. I could see how that situation would turn someone off trials. I love working the dog and I'm just as happy just hunting but I am interested in trials so I am going to do whatever I can to do that but as you can see there are a number of hurdles. I have also looked at where they hold most of the trials and tests and so for those days I'll be driving at least 4 hours. So I guess inadvertently my breed choice is also a hurdle (there are many more retriever clubs and pointing clubs around). It's a lot of time and money to dedicate to a dog, especially when you're young with a young family. Kids sports are expensive as heck too and although I really get a lot of enjoyment from the dog, he's not as high on the priority list as my child. Life's a rollercoaster, finding a balance with work and play can be difficult.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:06 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Trialing a dog also requires a lot of time and money... something in short demand with most young people (myself included)

I think it requires diligence. A good trainer can get by with a check cord. I think a good trainer can get the job done in 3 - 1/2 hr sessions a week. I encourage a new person and pup to spend 10 min. in the morning and 10 min. at night after you get home from work. It all boils down to commitment and priorities. For some people training is boring and no fun.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:06 am

I have been at this trialing business for a couple years now. At 29yo I won’t say that I am the youngest person I have run into at a trial but I'm certainly not one of "the old guard". In the last year I have been from the western edge of IL, down into TN and as far east as CT to trial. For those of you who have had bad experiences at trials with the people, I have to assume that it might not have been the "other people". I have been well received at EVERY trial I have ever been to. I have made lasting friends and have learned a ton. I am always the "new guy" at a club trial because I am always 4+ hours from home. However, the regulars or locals have always been willing to scout, or give advice, or even just sit and BS over a beer at the end of the day. I have sat at dinner with people I have never met before, from pros, to hall of fame amateurs, and they have all been great.

My biggest problem with trialing is that at 29yo, I have a young family, and a young career. The money, while it can get tight from time to time, has never been an issue for me, I am a worker, and have always found a way to get a few extra bucks when I need/want something. I do however have a hard time taking a Friday off of work to drive some place. I am a middle school shop teacher, and there are very few things as stressful to me as asking a sub come into my class room of 35 inner city goofballs because I want to go play with my dogs. I also have a small hobby farm and it is difficult to leave my wife to take care of a dozen horses, cattle, and whatever dogs get left behind, as well as wrangle a toddler.

I will say that I tend to see more young people at walking trials, which might indicate that a lack of ponies might be a part of the issue, however, I have also seen at HB trials where there are wrangler, and the wranglers stay pretty busy, so there is a means for those who are motivated.

When I talk to people my age I find that there are a few very basic things that keep them from the sport. First off I talk to the guys who don’t want to do what it takes to own a broke dog, they make every excuse under the sun for not breaking their dogs, but in the end it is laziness, or a lack of understanding. Or they think that trial dogs are out of control and they just can’t have it, of course they don’t have any clue because they have never seen a trial dog. Also a lot of times, like has been mentioned in this thread, I am part of the participation trophy generation, most of the people my age don’t thrive on competition, they aren’t willing to push themselves to have better dogs, and they aren’t willing to drive half way across the country to find out that their derby isn’t quite as good as someone elses. Or to drive 6hrs, hang out riding braces or sit in the trailer for 2days to have a broke dog blow up a bird at the 5min mark.

I think the current generation also loses sight of the fact that FTs are as much about the social aspect as they are about the competitive aspect. Many of the people I know who are my age can’t just sit and BS with someone 20-30yrs their senior for no reason other than to be there talking. I see a lot of folks who look like they are miserable at trials because they are afraid, or uncomfortable just hanging out talking to strangers.

Any how that was kind of long, but it is my perspective from the inside looking out.
Jim

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:27 am

mm wrote:For me the thing is horses. If no rental horses are available I don't go. I hear the wrangler charges the clubs a lot and some just had to cut the rental horses out. A lot of the trials have one or more walking stakes and I like to go to them but if there is only one walking stake and no rental horses for the other horse stakes I sometimes pass.
mm

I have a question for you regarding horse rental/wranglers.......what is a fair price per day? Would you pay $125/day? $200/weekend? The reason why clubs have quit hiring a wrangler is that the wrangler needs a minimum....and the club guarantees that min. So, horseless people that want to FT aren't renting enough horse flesh for it to work out financially.....and the clubs can't underwrite it any more.

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:56 am

Definitely not much decline in Retriever Field Trials or Hunt Tests.
Waterloo Amateur Retriever Club's Spring test sets new Texas record by filling up both flights of Master (120 dogs) in less than one hour!
Of course, ya don't need no stinkin' horse etc to participate.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:10 am

slistoe wrote:Hey, I retrieved a couple of hundred birds myself one year. Waded armpit deep while breaking ice for a couple of them. I can't really recall if I made any unnecessary sounds as the water rose up though. Do I get a doggie cookie? I remember eating a Milk-Bone once when I was about 10 years old - maybe that is why I was so good at it.

Did you get any worms from eating it ?...

mm · Post by mm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:17 am

I understand the rental horses are a lot but I do not know what the club pays to have them show up I have heard it is a lot and can eat up more than the club takes in for the trial. As a renter I pay 15 for a 1/2 hour brace and 30 for a 1 hour brace. Some trials I ride more than others and that is because I can only ride 3 horses on the string the rest are more than I can ride. I would love to pay a flat rate and keep one of the horses I like for the day but that is not an option. To answer your question I would pay the 1 or 2 hundred a day for the right horse as in the long run it is way cheaper and easier than owning a horse in my area.

I have observed that more one dog guys run in the walking stakes and I would think those are the newer people. I have watched the Brittany trial in NJ start a Friday walking stake attached to the weekend horseback trial. The first year they had to cancel , not enough entries. This past year it was full and they barley got it done in the one day it was a real nice trial.
mm

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:21 am

So I never realized there was a good ol' boys club I needed to join to get placements. What I did realize is when I started running dogs that it really wasn't as scary as people depicted it.

If you are just getting started a pro can be a lot of help. #1 you have someone to tell you what you did right and wrong. #2 they will usually let customers ride a horse to run your dog. #3 you will have someone to socialize with at the trial if you are not outgoing. #4 you are not just a New Guy, so you should not feel uncomfortable.

the only thing holding most people back is the fear of trying something new. everything else is an excuse.

There are two of us 30 and under, another one just started this year running britts. seems like we have young people starting HB field trials.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:47 am

mm wrote:I understand the rental horses are a lot but I do not know what the club pays to have them show up I have heard it is a lot and can eat up more than the club takes in for the trial. As a renter I pay 15 for a 1/2 hour brace and 30 for a 1 hour brace. Some trials I ride more than others and that is because I can only ride 3 horses on the string the rest are more than I can ride. I would love to pay a flat rate and keep one of the horses I like for the day but that is not an option. To answer your question I would pay the 1 or 2 hundred a day for the right horse as in the long run it is way cheaper and easier than owning a horse in my area.mm

In my area it costs clubs $1200-1800 for a wrangler with a minimum of six horses whether the club needs them or not. He usually brings a couple of 'spares' to rent by the brace for handling, gallerizing, or whatever. Because clubs can't usually afford to contract for handlers horses, and subletting them can be a headache to the committee, anyone who wants to ride for more than a brace or two is free to call the wrangler and reserve a mount under private contract. IME wranglers have been pretty good about sorting out which horses are appropriate for whom, and don't have a problem with people requesting a favorite mount.

Have you thought of asking the ft chairman or sec'y if they need any help marshalling or bird planting? Good bird planting and marshaling takes some knowledge of trialing and more than basic riding ability but if you can handle it, it's a great way to observe a lot of dogwork 'for free'.

mm · Post by mm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:27 am

I would love to do that but I am a basic rider and lucky to get myself around on a horse. When I run my dog off horseback it is usually good entertainment watching me just get on and off. The trials I rent horses at only offer by the brace rentals and the three horses I ride are in high demand at a busy trial so to be fair they get spread around and two are preferred handler horses so sometimes I only ride them when I handle my dog. On a few occasions friends have let me ride horses they own and I have enjoyed that a lot as the horses were very nice and easy to ride.

I think the horse problem is a big problem because this sport is not possible to observe, without one you can walk but it is harder to watch and see and to keep up and not many can walk 10 braces to see all the dogs. Sometimes I think that's where the sore losing comes in, a guy has a nice run and thinks he did well but does not place and cant understand. Thing is he did not see the other braces to see what beat him. I always want to see the other dogs and get an idea what they are doing and what the judges liked but it is hard and a lot of times I am just stuck in the parking lot. I see this as problem but I don't have a way to fix it.
mm

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:13 pm

I dont think It is as simple as "have horses will trial" I mean it might be, but I cant remember very many conversations with non trialers where they said they wouldn't do it because they didn't have a horse. If that were the case then the only group that would be struggling looking for youngsters to play the game would be AF and AKC trials. I attend a few UFTA trials every year at a local grounds to watch, and there aren't any younger people there than at an AKC trial, Maybe NASTRA is different, I dont know.

I would say that if the true reason for the decline in numbers was Horses than the simpl solution would be for clubs to host more walking stakes, but if that was the fix I would imagine we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Jim