Decline of Field Trials

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dan v
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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:20 pm

shags wrote:
I'm sorry to hear that Minnesota grounds are in jeopardy. Is US Fish behind the trouble?
Nothing like that. Our historical spring FT grounds are in fact a county park called Three Rivers Park District. We have been eventing on this parcel since the mid 1980's. During that time the Park was, and currently is, trying to restore native tallgrass prairie. And now after 25 or so years, they have decided that in an effort to promote migratory birds to take up residence (and non-migratory such as phez) in a larger population, they have decided that all the commotion FT's have in the spring are preventing the birds from calling the park home. In essence, they is so much use that the wildlife sees little "down time" during their nesting season. So we have made some concessions such as the gallery has to stay on the designated bridle paths (the park is open to equestrian riding)...now only the handlers/judges/scouts and bird planter may ride where they need to. We have also made other concessions as to the staking out of dogs and horses.

Also back in the mid '80's the Park as a whole had 1.5 million visits/year. The last year they have data for, the Park had 10 million visits. So we used to be out there by ourselves...and now we have some conflicts, trail riders and FT dogs being the primary one.

If there is/was any good that came from the meeting is that we hopefully are using some leverage of the Park against the MN DNR to find a suitable place to FT dogs. We have off leash parks for dogs, we have off road recreational parks parks...now we need something for horseback recreation.
Last edited by dan v on Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:23 pm

DonF wrote: Where is that rule? I could go for all walking stakes.
Right here in the AKC FT Guidelines:
Section 2. Regular stakes that may be offered: A club may not offer more than one of these stakes at any given trial. Puppy Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs 6 months of age and under 15 months of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Puppy stake at a trial which starts on April 30, 1990). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Puppy stakes.
Derby Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs six (6) months of age and under two (2) years of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Derby stake at a trial which starts on January 30, 1991). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Derby stakes.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:21 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
DonF wrote: Where is that rule? I could go for all walking stakes.
Right here in the AKC FT Guidelines:
Section 2. Regular stakes that may be offered: A club may not offer more than one of these stakes at any given trial. Puppy Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs 6 months of age and under 15 months of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Puppy stake at a trial which starts on April 30, 1990). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Puppy stakes.
Derby Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs six (6) months of age and under two (2) years of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Derby stake at a trial which starts on January 30, 1991). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Derby stakes.
se

Is this new? or relatively new, like several years old?

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Middlecreek » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:22 pm

fuzznut wrote:Some numbers to chew on - AKC FT's
2001- 38,922 entered
2011- 32,317
2012-32,376
There is your answer..... i would be curious to see the numbers for the ten years in between. My guess would be the entries dropped off in 2008-2009 when the economy did just like everything else related to disposable income. For the most part there is no decline and field trials have never been domoinated by the younger crowd. The demographics have changed with the economy, but for the most part from what I have seen for entries it is far from dwindling out of existance.

The demograhics will swing more toward the younger crowd when the economy is fully back on track. The costs of trialing is as cheap or cheaper than ever before now when you really look at what a dollar could buy back in the day compared to right now

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by DonF » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:18 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
DonF wrote: Where is that rule? I could go for all walking stakes.
Right here in the AKC FT Guidelines:
Section 2. Regular stakes that may be offered: A club may not offer more than one of these stakes at any given trial. Puppy Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs 6 months of age and under 15 months of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Puppy stake at a trial which starts on April 30, 1990). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Puppy stakes.
Derby Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs six (6) months of age and under two (2) years of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Derby stake at a trial which starts on January 30, 1991). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Derby stakes.
Sorta looks to me like you could have walking or horseback puppy and derby stakes but no horseback handling in walking stakes. HUH. You can't horseback handle in any walking stake. Maybe I'm missing something here.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by shags » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:24 pm

Dan,

Thanks for the explanation and good luck with procuring grounds.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:41 pm

DonF wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
DonF wrote: Where is that rule? I could go for all walking stakes.
Right here in the AKC FT Guidelines:
Section 2. Regular stakes that may be offered: A club may not offer more than one of these stakes at any given trial. Puppy Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs 6 months of age and under 15 months of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Puppy stake at a trial which starts on April 30, 1990). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Puppy stakes.
Derby Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking) for dogs six (6) months of age and under two (2) years of age on the first advertised day of the trial (e.g., a dog whelped on January 30, 1989, would not be eligible for entry in a Derby stake at a trial which starts on January 30, 1991). Horseback handling is not permitted in Amateur Walking Derby stakes.
Sorta looks to me like you could have walking or horseback puppy and derby stakes but no horseback handling in walking stakes. HUH. You can't horseback handle in any walking stake. Maybe I'm missing something here.
.....................................................

I was thinking that too . LOL The judge never rides in our AF puppy stakes but he sure better ride in the Derby stakes. )

I know a Judge who walks in all walking stakes- in his 60s.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:00 pm

JKP wrote: Ya gotta figure that other organizations that are holding training days every week end and training owners to train their dogs and get them ready to go hunting look pretty attractive.
When the trailers are out competing with their dogs every weekend, who is going to hold the training seminars?

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:54 pm

DonF wrote: Sorta looks to me like you could have walking or horseback puppy and derby stakes but no horseback handling in walking stakes. HUH. You can't horseback handle in any walking stake. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Do...I'm confused at your confusion. The AKC states, " A club may not offer more than one of these stakes at any given trial. Puppy Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking)..." So that means you can offer a Open Puppy, which CAN be horseback, and/or and Amateur Puppy, which MUST be walking. And that been the case as long as I can recall.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by QuillGordon » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:57 pm

I will be honest...the four pages of this thread made my eyes glaze over.
Yep, five pages now & have yet to read anything too inspire youth
Good luck gent's...

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Quailcommando » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:41 am

You can sit on this forum all day long and ask what are THEY doing to promote OUR sport! What should be asked is what are each and everyone of us doing to promote it.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by deke » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:52 pm

I didn't read all of the posts, but figured I would give my 2 cents, based on my experiences at another venue. When I was 12 I started working for our local trap and skeet club, I worked there until I was 18, and have been back to help them out on many of their tournaments. When I walk through the door, they all jump up and come talk to me, shake my hand, pitch me "bleep" about my dog, gun, truck, etc. But I have seen on many occasions, another " kid " my age go in there and get the cold shoulder, much like I got the first time I walked in the door showing up for work. I know that I didn't want to go back, it wasn't fun, and being around people that wouldn't even give me a chance was frustrating. My father being a fairly sharp fella made me go back, day after day, week after week. After I had worked there for about a year I started figuring the " old " men out a bit more, and actually started to enjoy work. Most of them started trying to teach me things, whether it be trap shooting, electrical, or how to pour a good drink. In the end most of them became what I would consider friends, or father figures. I could go on till next week telling about all the shenanigans that went on in that clubhouse. Had my father not sent me back, maybe my love of shooting or hunting would of never developed into what it is today.

I guess what I am trying to say is that both generations are guilty, and both are innocent. Young men need to ask for help instead of getting frustrated and quitting, and older men need to go out of their way to help the younger guys, instead of being frustrated by their lack of skill/knowledge.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:08 pm

Quailcommando wrote:You can sit on this forum all day long and ask what are THEY doing to promote OUR sport! What should be asked is what are each and everyone of us doing to promote it.
I think I came up with a catchy slogan.

"Ask not what Field Trials can do for you but what you can do for Field Trials"


Its amazing what I come up with during cocktail hour! I call it Budweiser inspirations! :D

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Quailcommando » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:29 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:You can sit on this forum all day long and ask what are THEY doing to promote OUR sport! What should be asked is what are each and everyone of us doing to promote it.
I think I came up with a catchy slogan.

"Ask not what Field Trials can do for you but what you can do for Field Trials"


Its amazing what I come up with during cocktail hour! I call it Budweiser inspirations! :D
That's funny, Growing up I would tag along with my uncle he would take me to the moose lodge I learned a lot about bird dogs during cocktail hour.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by birddogger » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:54 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:You can sit on this forum all day long and ask what are THEY doing to promote OUR sport! What should be asked is what are each and everyone of us doing to promote it.
I think I came up with a catchy slogan.

"Ask not what Field Trials can do for you but what you can do for Field Trials"


Its amazing what I come up with during cocktail hour! I call it Budweiser inspirations! :D
Hey AZ, I often think the same thing until the next morning. :lol:

Charlie

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:04 pm

birddogger wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:You can sit on this forum all day long and ask what are THEY doing to promote OUR sport! What should be asked is what are each and everyone of us doing to promote it.
I think I came up with a catchy slogan.

"Ask not what Field Trials can do for you but what you can do for Field Trials"


Its amazing what I come up with during cocktail hour! I call it Budweiser inspirations! :D
Hey AZ, I often think the same thing until the next morning. :lol:

Charlie
Yep, In the morning I usually say "oh crap, did I say that?" :oops:

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by MJB64 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:46 pm

I think that Neil has nailed it for some of us with this quote.
most importantly he did not want to be away from his family or drag them unwillingly along
My wife asked me "What kind of people do you see at these trials". I told her that the main groups were rich people, retired people, and divorced people.

I don't fit into any of those groups yet.

Mike

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by larue » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:12 am

I understand the cost portion of not running in trials.I also am part of a club the four lakes gsp who as a club only hold field trials.Our club consists of a handfull
of members,around 10 members total with some not being able to attend all trials.We are all still working and many have families to raise yet.
The small amount of members has limited what we can do,or are willing to do as a club,and we have made efforts to increase our membership but with very limited success.
15 years ago there was a gsp club that ran trials at eagle,at bong and ours,lots of gsp trials to go run at.Now we are the only one who runs trials at all,and we have great trials but we are hanging on with just the bare minimum of help to hold a trial.
Try getting committee members and judges out of a club that has 8 members showing up,with judges not being able to be on those.
this year we are scaling back our spring horseback trial,from a 5 day to a 3 day event,just not enough bodies for 5 days.
So where do we go? I am running our spring walking trial,and considering a fall walking trial,as i believe walking trials are a big part of the future.
I am considering a water test,along with club held training days open to the public.
I started trials looking for a new thing to run with my max after he had his mh and ut,it was easy to show up at a walking trial with him.
This is the path most are willing or able to take and i feel we must promote walking trials to expose people to the trial format.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by jimbo&rooster » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:40 am

AZ Britt Guy, if you do a quick Google search of "field trialing in Indiana" there is an essay put out by the state that is the readers digest version. If I can get to a computer I will post a link.

But from what I gather. It has to do with permanent structures, such as barns and clubhouses often connected to FT grounds. The trails and land destruction caused by horses, and potential profits made on state land procured by these funds.

Jim

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by JKP » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:57 am

Are we missing the point? I don't train my dog to get test scores? I don't test to impress anyone or to sell puppies? I do it to get my dog ready to go hunting and to support an organization that helps me do that....and as long as these
aging legs will walk me over the land in ND, upstate NY, Arizona, Canada and carry a bag of decoys to the blind, I will continue to do that. Yes, find ways of getting folks involved in FT and all the working dog groups but if its just about the games, its not about the purpose....to go hunting....and THAT we need to keep alive. 7 times out of 10 when I see hunters take off their hats at the local diner in ND, I'm looking at grey hair (like me) and that should concern us more.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AlbertaChessie » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:25 am

JKP wrote:Are we missing the point? I don't train my dog to get test scores? I don't test to impress anyone or to sell puppies? I do it to get my dog ready to go hunting and to support an organization that helps me do that....and as long as these
aging legs will walk me over the land in ND, upstate NY, Arizona, Canada and carry a bag of decoys to the blind, I will continue to do that. Yes, find ways of getting folks involved in FT and all the working dog groups but if its just about the games, its not about the purpose....to go hunting....and THAT we need to keep alive. 7 times out of 10 when I see hunters take off their hats at the local diner in ND, I'm looking at grey hair (like me) and that should concern us more.
^^^^THIS!

Possibly one of the best and most correct posts ive ever seen on this forum. You have nailed it to a tee JKP. I more or less stated the same thoughts and was labelled someone that 'couldn't compete' by one of the 'all show and no go' crowd.

Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.

Well said JKP. Well said.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:46 am

AlbertaChessie wrote:
Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.

Well said JKP. Well said.
If I felt that way I would make sure there were no titled dogs in my dog's pedigree. Not even the 8th generation, it still might taint the dog, trials and tests being so gimmicked up and all. Nope, I would just take the breeder's word for the quality of the dogs, including those he had never seen.

Neil

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by DonF » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:28 am

Wyndancer wrote:
DonF wrote: Sorta looks to me like you could have walking or horseback puppy and derby stakes but no horseback handling in walking stakes. HUH. You can't horseback handle in any walking stake. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Do...I'm confused at your confusion. The AKC states, " A club may not offer more than one of these stakes at any given trial. Puppy Stake (Open and/or Amateur Walking)..." So that means you can offer a Open Puppy, which CAN be horseback, and/or and Amateur Puppy, which MUST be walking. And that been the case as long as I can recall.
That makes more sense! Thanks!

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by trueblu » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:48 am

Now Neil, you know that the best place to find pups are products of field trial dog breedings. NFC, AFC, FC, NASD, etc. etc. means a heck of a lot more than "well old Bill says his dawg is the best huntin' dog in these here parts" However, the true proving ground is a combination, a dog that has the pedigree from titled dogs, who were hunted. A sire and dam that have proven themselves in the national field trial arena or had shown the raw abilities, AND were HUNTED on WILD BIRDS. I think what they are saying is that we have far too many who trial. Who go and go!! Finally put a FC title on their dog after running the thing for years, then go to breeding. The people who have never hunted wild bird one and whose dog has never seen west Texas or northwest Kansas or the prairies and been hunted like the dog was put on earth to do.

'Course we propagate the hunting dog fallacy by not actually hunting the dogs but running trials, while asking those to judge who have never hunted a wild bird in their lives. What do you expect?

By the way, hope you are doing well Mr. Mace.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AlbertaChessie » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:56 am

trueblu wrote:Now Neil, you know that the best place to find pups are products of field trial dog breedings. NFC, AFC, FC, NASD, etc. etc. means a heck of a lot more than "well old Bill says his dawg is the best huntin' dog in these here parts" However, the true proving ground is a combination, a dog that has the pedigree from titled dogs, who were hunted. A sire and dam that have proven themselves in the national field trial arena or had shown the raw abilities, AND were HUNTED on WILD BIRDS. I think what they are saying is that we have far too many who trial. Who go and go!! Finally put a FC title on their dog after running the thing for years, then go to breeding. The people who have never hunted wild bird one and whose dog has never seen west Texas or northwest Kansas or the prairies and been hunted like the dog was put on earth to do.

'Course we propagate the hunting dog fallacy by not actually hunting the dogs but running trials, while asking those to judge who have never hunted a wild bird in their lives. What do you expect?

By the way, hope you are doing well Mr. Mace.
That is exactly my point.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Karen » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:17 am

It's been my recent experience that, at least with the breed clubs in my general vicinity, are all about power & control, and the dogs are a VERY distant third in the list of priorities (if the dogs are even on the radar). I've had it, to be honest. The club politics, the power struggles, the recruiting members from all over the country to stack the deck in one direction or the other, the blatant disregard for the by-laws to try and vote down member applications from people who are national members in good standing. Heck! One club wouldn't accept the membership application from an AKC conformation judge who has bred Brittanys AND supported our shows for 20+ years AND who personally judged sweepstakes for me just a couple years ago.

How do we expect to retain existing membership, no less encourage new membership, when we're so busy playing politics, and in-fighting? I pray the clubs I'm dealing with are unique, but fear they're not.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by buckshot1 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:42 am

AlbertaChessie wrote: Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.

Well said JKP. Well said.
I think what JKP was saying was that field trials are an extension of hunting that will continue to decline as long as bird hunting participation declines, not that field trials are useless for determining a dog's ability. I agree with JKP on that point.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:53 am

I never quite understand the mentality of people who make unsubstantiated suppositions. Field trials and tests in all their forms with positives and negatives acknowledged are a measurable way to determine abilities in a dog you may never see. If you are a hunter and you choose dogs from highly successful practitioners in any of these disciplines, you are likely to get a dog with enough natural ability to satisfy your needs. Whether or not your practical application matches the venue is of minor concern when you compare the risk of buying a pup from a friend of a friend.

The shooting sports are full of humans reflective of some crazy behaviors in the species. They talk, show and tell a lot more than they listen; begging for recognition that they are relevant to the point that they actually find justification to stratify and prioritize the importance of all venues and purpose based on their corner of the world. The weather, tailgate pictures, geography, species hunted, type of gun you shoot, your brand of long johns, thickness of your beard, dialect, stickers in your truck window, your rims, lift kit, dog box, etc... and the 12 dogs you your dad and uncles have owned in your life do not necessarily qualify you as an expert that people will recognize. It does not mean you are not, but experience tells us that most of us are full of sh**. That leaves us with either observations of dogs to breed to (fairly impractical for large numbers) OR using measurable venues. However, the loudest among us will demand that others recognize their specific life experiences as qualifications to be revered.

The uneducated may be duped by titles, they too are imperfect. Some are long fought and struggled for, finally achieved through perseverance and opportunity afforded a mediocre dog. However, it doesn't take much research to find organizations that can steer you to the right breeders. They are generally associated in some way with successful handlers or they are so themselves. Most that I know are hunters as well. The best field trial handlers/dog trainers in the horseback field trail world, will not advise a client to buy an AA white pointer to hunt throw down pheasants in the 20 acre club field, retrieve doves, and to sit in your duck blind. Nor will they run down a dog better suited for that purpose engaged in that purpose...

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by buckshot1 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:03 pm

trueblu wrote:I think what they are saying is that we have far too many who trial. Who go and go!! Finally put a FC title on their dog after running the thing for years, then go to breeding. The people who have never hunted wild bird one and whose dog has never seen west Texas or northwest Kansas or the prairies and been hunted like the dog was put on earth to do.

'Course we propagate the hunting dog fallacy by not actually hunting the dogs but running trials, while asking those to judge who have never hunted a wild bird in their lives. What do you expect?
I keep hearing on this forum about all these people who field trial but don't hunt. Maybe they're all blowing smoke up my rear end, but most of the people I talk to at field trials seem to hunt quite a bit. I can't imagine anyone having a world class bird hunting machine that they've poured loads of time and money into and not actually hunting it. Just curious, why does everyone believe that people who field trial don't like to hunt?

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:28 pm

buckshot1 wrote:
trueblu wrote:I think what they are saying is that we have far too many who trial. Who go and go!! Finally put a FC title on their dog after running the thing for years, then go to breeding. The people who have never hunted wild bird one and whose dog has never seen west Texas or northwest Kansas or the prairies and been hunted like the dog was put on earth to do.

'Course we propagate the hunting dog fallacy by not actually hunting the dogs but running trials, while asking those to judge who have never hunted a wild bird in their lives. What do you expect?
I keep hearing on this forum about all these people who field trial but don't hunt. Maybe they're all blowing smoke up my rear end, but most of the people I talk to at field trials seem to hunt quite a bit. I can't imagine anyone having a world class bird hunting machine that they've poured loads of time and money into and not actually hunting it. Just curious, why does everyone believe that people who field trial don't like to hunt?
Because it is much easier for them to suppose they are superior that way.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:03 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:AZ Britt Guy, if you do a quick Google search of "field trialing in Indiana" there is an essay put out by the state that is the readers digest version. If I can get to a computer I will post a link.

But from what I gather. It has to do with permanent structures, such as barns and clubhouses often connected to FT grounds. The trails and land destruction caused by horses, and potential profits made on state land procured by these funds.

Jim
It makes my blood boil when I hear from our Gov agencies about how field trailers hurt the land. Our Government tells us how we hurt the land and I look at the devastation cause by grazing leases issued by the NF and STL. I don't even own a horse but get angry when they make Field Trialers shovel up the horse manure and remove it from the property. Believe me, when we get several feet of snow up here and the cattle need to be fed, the ranchers dump bails of hay off of their flat bed truck thats I can guarantee is NOT certified "weed free hay". The whole thing is disingenuous at best. :x

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by JKP » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:56 pm

WOW!!! How the heck did my comment about the need for the next generation of hunters...who will be members of the competing/testing ranks...get turned into another squabble??

Maybe the problem is we're to busy kicking each other in the "tukas"....makes us ripe pickins for those that would like to see us go away. Squabble on....mano a mano...ego a ego....

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by ChetB » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:26 pm

JKP wrote:WOW!!! How the heck did my comment about the need for the next generation of hunters...who will be members of the competing/testing ranks...get turned into another squabble??

Maybe the problem is we're to busy kicking each other in the "tukas"....makes us ripe pickins for those that would like to see us go away. Squabble on....mano a mano...ego a ego....
I've noticed a lot that sort of thing going on here. Kind of sad ...

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:03 pm

JKP wrote:WOW!!! How the heck did my comment about the need for the next generation of hunters...who will be members of the competing/testing ranks...get turned into another squabble??Maybe the problem is we're to busy kicking each other in the "tukas"....makes us ripe pickins for those that would like to see us go away. Squabble on....mano a mano...ego a ego....
It shouldn't have. I read what you wrote and while we certainly don't always agree, I think you were stating the reasonable...still something must have happened...Maybe someone wasn't reasonable. Someone on one side of the aisle or the other must have made an unsubstantiated argument that caused folks to take a different tone. Ahh...seems I have found it, see below. Another worldly, well spoken advocate for the shooting sports...exactly the kid that has owned a few dogs, knows it all, seen it all, done it all, lives in the right place, hunts the right critters, and cannot understand why the public accolade and recognition is lacking for all their abilities..
AlbertaChessie wrote:Possibly one of the best and most correct posts ive ever seen on this forum. You have nailed it to a tee JKP. I more or less stated the same thoughts and was labelled someone that 'couldn't compete' by one of the 'all show and no go' crowd.Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Middlecreek » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:18 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:
Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.
It's too bad things are like that in Canada, that must be a terrible place to live if you appreciate what a good dog is. Here in the states I don't know one single trialer that does not hunt, not a single one. They may not take their $10k+ champion hunting all that often for obvious reasons, but they all take their dogs hunting at some point in their develooment.

Back to the topic though, it's teaching people like this what trials are all about and helping them to understand their value to the betterment of the breeds. Some are envious or full of excuses or simply don't have the time or money to get involved and actually compete for a win, but there is a lot more to trials than just handling your dog in a brace. We must fight the ignorant, embrace the willing, and support the successful.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AlbertaChessie » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:45 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
JKP wrote:WOW!!! How the heck did my comment about the need for the next generation of hunters...who will be members of the competing/testing ranks...get turned into another squabble??Maybe the problem is we're to busy kicking each other in the "tukas"....makes us ripe pickins for those that would like to see us go away. Squabble on....mano a mano...ego a ego....
It shouldn't have. I read what you wrote and while we certainly don't always agree, I think you were stating the reasonable...still something must have happened...Maybe someone wasn't reasonable. Someone on one side of the aisle or the other must have made an unsubstantiated argument that caused folks to take a different tone. Ahh...seems I have found it, see below. Another worldly, well spoken advocate for the shooting sports...exactly the kid that has owned a few dogs, knows it all, seen it all, done it all, lives in the right place, hunts the right critters, and cannot understand why the public accolade and recognition is lacking for all their abilities..
AlbertaChessie wrote:Possibly one of the best and most correct posts ive ever seen on this forum. You have nailed it to a tee JKP. I more or less stated the same thoughts and was labelled someone that 'couldn't compete' by one of the 'all show and no go' crowd.Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.
lol chukar. I have not seen it all. I have not owned a few dogs, I haven't done it all. Im 31. Still a long ways to go. Youre intentionally missing the point. While you spend countless hours training and testing your dogs on their aptitude to bring back synthetic bumpers and planted birds. I hunt mine :)

I have to ask....how many days do you actually spend In the field? Hunting that is.....trialing does not constitute in the field.

This is one of the problems guys. You've had myself, and a couple other guys physically put in front of you why we don't bother with it anymore....and you completely discount those reasons. you ask why less people are doing it, and when you get your answers you lose your minds, thus proving our points! In Canada theres not a decline in hunters. Theres massive growth! Theres also a massive decline in trialing and to a lesser extent hunt tests. So no, theres no correlation from our end to 'hunter decline'. shouldnt feedback not help the cause as oppose to just tick you off? If you are actually concerned with the future of your clubs i would suggest taking feedback and running with it. Even if trialing and testing does go back to its original purpose, I personally still couldn't be bothered but that's just me. I personally prefer to spend my time, with my hunting dog, hunting. I was privileged to spend 60 days in the field with my dogs this year that I otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to do had I still been doing comps.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AlbertaChessie » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:47 pm

Middlecreek wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote:
Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to.
It's too bad things are like that in Canada, that must be a terrible place to live if you appreciate what a good dog is. Here in the states I don't know one single trialer that does not hunt, not a single one. They may not take their $10k+ champion hunting all that often for obvious reasons, but they all take their dogs hunting at some point in their develooment.

Back to the topic though, it's teaching people like this what trials are all about and helping them to understand their value to the betterment of the breeds. Some are envious or full of excuses or simply don't have the time or money to get involved and actually compete for a win, but there is a lot more to trials than just handling your dog in a brace. We must fight the ignorant, embrace the willing, and support the successful.
please 'enlighten' me as to what a good dog is? im assuming you are referring to a good dog being one that competes? that's idiocy at its finest if that's what you truly mean. A good dog works. and working is not competing.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:58 pm

Why don't we get back to the topic .....Maybe the decline is people feeling like what they enjoy is being berated because it doesn't stand up to someone elses ideal of what should be enjoyed.

OH and azbrittanyguy ...I still get a chukle :roll: how one club is told to bag their horse manure in the midst of the cow manure while anther club is only asked to spread their horse manure around at the very same location the weekend before. Gotta love the Bureau of Lies and Miss-Management

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Sharon » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:02 pm

[quote="AlbertaChessie"][
Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to." quote

Really? Not in my part of Canada.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:14 pm

Why would you use an LOL or defend yourself, did you see what was written in bold in your quote? You are wrong and yet you still blindly pursue the same path. Field trials and or any volunteer organizations including the PTC and Little League are far better off without people that lack the self esteem to learn from others, this self esteem issue is in almost all "whiners." I hunt between 30 and 60 days every year and I don't need to provide you a resume', it is more likely to prove a point letting you run head long into your ignorance. Is this where one of your eloquence would put a smiley face to prove their bemusement?

Trials, games and tests are not dying. They have grown. A specific or given format may wane, but more people compete and test with dogs than ever before there are just more choices than AKC, CKC and AF. However, that was not the subject that you espoused your ignorance under...you took it off topic and denounced all tests and trials as a manner for measuring dogs, and outside your own little world and ability to personally observe the dogs, you are wrong; and therefore, your statement about the venue and usefulness is wrong.

As for your comment that trialing does not account for time in the field, I will tell you this... I want information and opinions from people that know dogs, if they can combine that with hunting experience all the better. But great hunters, wherever that metric derives may or may not know dogs. I have killed many dozen limits of chukar, quail, pheasants, ducks, geese, bears, bobcats, coons and grouse with no dogs and or poorly trained dogs all because we were young, strong, committed and our goal was only game in the bag. It didn't mean I knew dogs. Real trainers touch more dogs in a year than I would have touched or seen in a lifetime. You have a ways to go before you will actually earn respect that you are trying desperately to demand...how does it go? LOL....

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Middlecreek » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:23 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:
I was privileged to spend 60 days in the field with my dogs this year that I otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to do had I still been doing comps.
Maybe that is why you were not successful at trials and quit? It takes a certain level of dedication and commitment to be successful at trialing. A win in the bird fields (limit of roosters for example) doesn't even require a dog much less an exceptional one. 60 days in the field is not enough to take a dog with the right tools and make it an exceptional one that reaches its full potential...

AlbertaChessie wrote:

please 'enlighten' me as to what a good dog is? im assuming you are referring to a good dog being one that competes? that's idiocy at its finest if that's what you truly mean. A good dog works. and working is not competing.
Here is a decent discussion about what a good dog is:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=39735

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:09 pm

kninebirddog wrote:Why don't we get back to the topic .....Maybe the decline is people feeling like what they enjoy is being berated because it doesn't stand up to someone elses ideal of what should be enjoyed.

OH and azbrittanyguy ...I still get a chukle :roll: how one club is told to bag their horse manure in the midst of the cow manure while anther club is only asked to spread their horse manure around at the very same location the weekend before. Gotta love the Bureau of Lies and Miss-Management
Pretty arbitrary isn't it..? Makes me angry! It's a message to field trailers on how much latitude is given to the front line management.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:35 pm

Sharon wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote: Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to."
Really? Not in my part of Canada.
Not in his part of Canada either.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:48 pm

slistoe wrote:
Sharon wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote: Too many guys and gals forget that trialing and testing is wonderful, but it really doesn't mean squat when it comes to gauging a dogs ability. Testing is meant to be a gimmicked up display of how the dog performs in the field.....unfortunately the testing has become overrun with folk that test, and only test....and couldn't differentiate between a 12 gauge and a 20 gauge if they had to."
Really? Not in my part of Canada.
Not in his part of Canada either.
Alberta must be talking about the retriever people. :wink:

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:57 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote: In Canada theres not a decline in hunters. Theres massive growth! Theres also a massive decline in trialing and to a lesser extent hunt tests.
Because I have been involved in this stuff up here and because I had the time to look back at some of the statistics I thought it prudent to address this gross misinformation. Hunting in Alberta peaked around 1980. At that time app. 7.6% of the population purchased a hunting licence. Since then there was a steady and significant decline in hunter numbers to the point that the government of Alberta commissioned a study in the late 90's to see what could be done to reverse the trend. In 1996 licence sales were about 3.6% of the population of the province. Since then there has been a considerable slowing of the decline but no reversal of the trend. The province has seen a 45% growth in population since 1996 which has resulted in there being 15% more hunters in the field today than in 1996 but the overall numbers for 2012 shows that licence sales accounted for less than 3% of the population of the province - certainly not a growth trend.
As to the field trials - I started trialing in 1988. There are more pointing dog trials within an 8 hour drive of my place today than there were then. In addition I can attend hunt tests that were not available then as well as a new chapter of NAVDHA is active and available to test dogs. There is more opportunity to participate in dog games now than ever. I am not as closely connected to the retriever scene as I once was but I can still find events to go to should I choose, both trials and 2 different venues of tests.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:29 pm

Thanks for the facts. That might slow down some of the self made info that has been spread. Lets hope anyway.

I am disturbed by the number of younger individuals who are taking part in many of the discussions and they seem to be lacking in the skill of reasonable dialogue. It is not what they are saying that is so bad though not always good either, but there is just no writing skills in how to say something without going out of their way to offend and be just plain obnoxious. And then the blame the older poster for picking on them, not knowing what they are talking about, and complaining about the moderation either on the board or by PM.

I look forward to having new people come aboard and take part but we also expect a certain decorum and without it we have nothing going that is helpful to anyone. So if any of you get called on your attitude or method of posting do not be surprises and the chances are a second one may result in further action. This is not meant to be a threat but just providing information you will need to remain a productive member of our group.

Ezzy

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:55 pm

Albertachessie
lol chukar. I have not seen it all. I have not owned a few dogs, I haven't done it all. Im 31. Still a long ways to go. Youre intentionally missing the point. While you spend countless hours training and testing your dogs on their aptitude to bring back synthetic bumpers and planted birds. I hunt mine :)

I have to ask....how many days do you actually spend In the field? Hunting that is.....trialing does not constitute in the field.

This is one of the problems guys. You've had myself, and a couple other guys physically put in front of you why we don't bother with it anymore....and you completely discount those reasons. you ask why less people are doing it, and when you get your answers you lose your minds, thus proving our points! In Canada theres not a decline in hunters. Theres massive growth! Theres also a massive decline in trialing and to a lesser extent hunt tests. So no, theres no correlation from our end to 'hunter decline'. shouldnt feedback not help the cause as oppose to just tick you off? If you are actually concerned with the future of your clubs i would suggest taking feedback and running with it. Even if trialing and testing does go back to its original purpose, I personally still couldn't be bothered but that's just me. I personally prefer to spend my time, with my hunting dog, hunting. I was privileged to spend 60 days in the field with my dogs this year that I otherwise wouldn't have had the opportunity to do had I still been doing comps.
What about guys who do both? Their dogs must be exceptional! :D

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by QuillGordon » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:04 pm

Field trials lack purity... Purity of hound and wild bird's & the terrain in which they live... Wild bird hunters pursue this as if a religion without arrogance, egotists or snobs regarding our dogs... No back slapping or watching paint dry viewing handlers yell command's at over priced hounds on pen raised birds. No sixty thousand dollar trucks (well, maybe a few fifty grand trucks) with thirty thousand dollar trailers with horses of God knows what $$$ amount. No kennel's filled with under appreciated or quite possibly abused hounds. We rely on commitment from day one that this pup will turn out, as we only have one, two or possibly three. In the end we do not require a ribbon or trophy just a honest days work, bird's in the bag or not... Which would appeal more to youth today, the purist or the phony?
You SFB's wonder why field trial's are in decline, go look in the mirror...

That's a good ole boy Creek, I just failed to shoot straight. Sorry amigo... :lol:

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Get yer hand off yer back Elk, it's not purdy
And yes I'm almost sober...
Last edited by QuillGordon on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:15 pm

QuillGordon wrote:Field trials lack purity... Purity of hound and wild bird's & the terrain in which they live... Wild bird hunters pursue this as if a religion without arrogance, egotists or snobs regarding our dogs... No back slapping or watching paint dry viewing handlers yell command's at over priced hounds on pen raised birds. No sixty thousand dollar trucks with thirty thousand dollar trailers with horses of God knows what $$$ amount. No kennel's filled with under appreciated hounds. We rely on commitment from day one that this pup will turn out, as we only have one, two or possibly three. In the end we do not require a ribbon or trophy just a honest days work, bird's in the bag or not... Which would appeal more to youth today, the purist or the phony?
You SFB's wonder why field trial's are in decline, go look in the mirror...

That's a good ole boy Creek, I just failed to shoot straight... :lol:

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Get yer hand off yer back Elk, it's not purdy
And yes I'm sober, almost...
If this post reflects the height of hunter purity, I am ashamed to call myself a hunter.
I have never met anyone that trialed their dog who displayed the arrogance and conceit that is in this post. Unfortunately Quill is not the only so called "hunter" to extoll such vitriol. Not only is this poor behaviour from a supposed hunter and sportsman, it is just plain poor behaviour for a fellow human.
Get drunk - maybe your perspective will improve. It certainly can't get worse and at least you will have an excuse.

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Re: Decline of Field Trials

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:38 pm

QuillGordon wrote:******************************************************************************** EDITED FOR LACK OF CONTENT


HMMM Guess it is time for this post to be locked ..as I see who has stooped to the name calling here.

Locked