which gets you a placement

[vols fan]

Which do you think gets you a higher placement? Great ground race but with average bird work or average ground race with super bird work? I've seen both , I will comment later on what I think but just want to see where everyone else goes on this.

[big swill]

Are you talking NSTRA, AF, AKC...?

[Adam]

Depends on the judge..

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Depends on the judges more then anything.What are you calling super & average bird work,no of finds,style,?

[jetjockey]

All Age or SD/GD? Too many variables to really give a solid answer.

[mudhunter]

Be more specific on average vs great bird work. Clean bird work is a must in my book, the dog needs to be tight on its birds and intense. Now if the dog doesn't have picture perfect style or let's down after the flush I wouldn't hold that against him. I will look more favorably on a dog with superior application and clean bird work than a super good looking dog with a lesser ground application.

[vols fan]

Talking more about sd/gd stakes ,AF,AKC. Average bird work to me is pointed bird in the same pinch point and every dog points in that area with some what accurate location. Super bird work is same coarse where a dog gets off beaten path and uses his nose and intelligence , accurately pin points birds and staunchly points them. Style is a bonus.I have seen where you find a dog standing 3-4 times ahead on coarse and never off horse path, they would go birdless probably if no one put a bird 5 feet off coarse. Many variables I know. So I guess my question should had been, which one would you like in a dog ?

[ezzy333]

I think great ground work will beat great bird work in most stakes and that is exactly wrong in my book.

[jetjockey]

I think great ground work will beat great bird work in most stakes and that is exactly wrong in my book.

Great ground work will often lead to great bird work, especially with wild birds involved. If the bird planters suck and release all the birds right off the path, then you get what you get. That's why one great find will often beat dogs with several "field trial" finds.

[JKP]

I think great ground work will beat great bird work in most stakes and that is exactly wrong in my book.

So method and style are more important than production???

[Sharon]

I would expect all of these criteria to be considered by the Judge in any shooting dog placement( any level above derby dog)

. under reasonable control of its handler.
.show a keen desire to hunt,
.must have a bold and attractive style of running, and must show independence in hunting. It must range well out in a forward moving pattern, seeking the most promising objectives, so as to locate .
game on the course. Excessive line-casting and avoiding cover must be penalized.
.dog must demonstrate its independent judgment in hunting the course, but must show a willingness to handle when called upon.
. dog must find game, must point staunchly, and must be steady to wing and shot.
.intelligent use of the wind and terrain in locating game, accurate nose, and style and intensity on point, are essential.

AKC guidelines /similar to our CKC guidelines for pointing breeds

[dan v]

All Age or SD/GD? Too many variables to really give a solid answer.

+1...adlu or juvi stake?

[mudhunter]

Talking more about sd/gd stakes ,AF,AKC. Average bird work to me is pointed bird in the same pinch point and every dog points in that area with some what accurate location. Super bird work is same coarse where a dog gets off beaten path and uses his nose and intelligence , accurately pin points birds and staunchly points them. Style is a bonus.I have seen where you find a dog standing 3-4 times ahead on coarse and never off horse path, they would go birdless probably if no one put a bird 5 feet off coarse. Many variables I know. So I guess my question should had been, which one would you like in a dog ?

Thanks for clarifying, In my brain the dog with the limb find going to places no other dog has been is showing superior ground effort! I consider the bird work what happens once the dog gets scent in his nose. The ground application is how did the dog get to the location he found the bird.

You can't fault a dog for pointing a bird on the path, what is he suppose to do?? But you can certainly reward the dog that got off the path and found a bird no other dog found!! I have no time for a dog that wouldn't leave a horse path! The bird planter can make or break a trial!

[Georgia Boy]

I think great ground work will beat great bird work in most stakes and that is exactly wrong in my book.

From what I have seen of trials I would agree with you.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

This is why it all depends on the judges.

[cmc274]

Big difference between a point and a find.

Unfortunately I think a lot of judges use one of those clickers that baseball umps use and count finds. I also think some judges that have grown up playing the game honestly dont recognize good application. I didnt say all and thats just my opinion.

[orbirdhunter]

Keep in mind that I am pretty much a newbie....but here is my thoughts..

Ground application seems to be the determining factor most of the time. At broke dog stake levels, most of the dogs are at the least competent bird work, and for the most part good bird work. Most of the dogs are solid and intense on birds...So the difference usually because the ground race.
I think that it would be tough for your dog to separate itself on bird work alone. There are going to be plenty of dogs that look great on point in most stakes.
Sometimes its hard to explain with being there and watching it all the time.
Bird planting can obviously make a difference, at our trials most of the people that plant are experienced handlers/judges etc. They know where to put the birds that rewards a dog hitting the objectives...

[DonF]

Keep in mind that I am pretty much a newbie....but here is my thoughts..

Ground application seems to be the determining factor most of the time. At broke dog stake levels, most of the dogs are at the least competent bird work, and for the most part good bird work. Most of the dogs are solid and intense on birds...So the difference usually because the ground race.
I think that it would be tough for your dog to separate itself on bird work alone. There are going to be plenty of dogs that look great on point in most stakes.
Sometimes its hard to explain with being there and watching it all the time.
Bird planting can obviously make a difference, at our trials most of the people that plant are experienced handlers/judges etc. They know where to put the birds that rewards a dog hitting the objectives...

I'm thinking your a Wirehair Club member?

[Chukar12]

It is a rare day that a dog can win without genetic given style nurtured by a competent trainer in an open stake. Ground application, intensity and bird sense can all be mutually exclusive but not In a consistently winning dog. These questions are not about the dog they are about people. Field trials must be judged and not scored as conditions change dramatically. The exact metrics that many pine for ... The absolutes... Ruin the purpose of a trial. It is why the rules are ambiguous and possibly why many struggle with their place in the activity. What makes this musician better than that one? This artist, or writer more accomplished than that one? You know you like when you see or hear it, and the accomplished in a discipline can largely agree on greatness. If you can only relate to sports and a score board you will need a different path than something that you have to trust someone's judgment on.

If it comes down to finds or run in a gun dog stake and it seems wrong, wait a week, better yet a month. It will correct itself.

[orbirdhunter]

That is a good point....When I think about it, the dogs that are the most intense on point, the ones that look like 10K on point, are often times the same dogs that burn the course up and seem to be in rhythm with their handler. The dog is showing its confidence, and its desire to find birds by digging a little harder, going a little deeper, finding the birds that others wouldn't....usually they all go together, and its a lot of fun to watch it unfold...
I hope I own one someday.

[dan v]

That is a good point....When I think about it, the dogs that are the most intense on point, the ones that look like 10K on point, are often times the same dogs that burn the course up and seem to be in rhythm with their handler. The dog is showing its confidence, and its desire to find birds by digging a little harder, going a little deeper, finding the birds that others wouldn't....usually they all go together, and its a lot of fun to watch it unfold...

I hope I own one someday.

I truly hope you do someday, they are a rare beast, more so in the "off" breeds. And when you do get one, and bring it up right, get it trained up right, a dog like that will always make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. and others. Everybody should have the opportunity to own a "once in a lifetime" dog.

[slistoe]

Talking more about sd/gd stakes ,AF,AKC. Average bird work to me is pointed bird in the same pinch point and every dog points in that area with some what accurate location. Super bird work is same coarse where a dog gets off beaten path and uses his nose and intelligence , accurately pin points birds and staunchly points them.

Average ground race does not normally get you a find off the beaten path.

[birddogger]

Great post Chukar12! Not being a HB trialer myself, this is the best explanation I have heard. Makes perfect sense to me.

Charlie

[Neil]

I will place the dog that shows he will find wild birds (were they available) that I would not find without him. GD/SD or A-A. It is that simple. Style, class, intensity, intelligence, endurance, cooperation, etc. All can add to it.

But a pointing dog's purpose is to find birds I wouldn't walk up.

[Elkhunter]

In a throw down trial I would place ground application over number of finds any day. I have seen dogs that go to all the right places that they would find wild birds and go birdless, all the while their brace mate is in the horse path pointing birds like crazy. Obviously the planter is the problem, but I want to see a dog get off the horse path and find birds.

[Meller]

In a throw down trial I would place ground application over number of finds any day. I have seen dogs that go to all the right places that they would find wild birds and go birdless, all the while their brace mate is in the horse path pointing birds like crazy. Obviously the planter is the problem, but I want to see a dog get off the horse path and find birds.

So a dog that has not displayed any style on point and has not shown any control on point (as letting down or breaking) but only displayed good ground application should win against a dog that has pointed with style, held the point and displayed style in every matter because the ground application dis played by run was better, with no way to see how he handled his point.
I have heard about dogs winning trial's without finds.

[shags]

In a throw down trial I would place ground application over number of finds any day. I have seen dogs that go to all the right places that they would find wild birds and go birdless, all the while their brace mate is in the horse path pointing birds like crazy. Obviously the planter is the problem, but I want to see a dog get off the horse path and find birds.

So a dog that has not displayed any style on point and has not shown any control on point (as letting down or breaking) but only displayed good ground application should win against a dog that has pointed with style, held the point and displayed style in every matter because the ground application dis played by run was better, with no way to see how he handled his point.
I have heard about dogs winning trial's without finds.

Where did you get that an unmannerly, poor-styled dog should win anything?

[Neil]

In a throw down trial I would place ground application over number of finds any day. I have seen dogs that go to all the right places that they would find wild birds and go birdless, all the while their brace mate is in the horse path pointing birds like crazy. Obviously the planter is the problem, but I want to see a dog get off the horse path and find birds.

So a dog that has not displayed any style on point and has not shown any control on point (as letting down or breaking) but only displayed good ground application should win against a dog that has pointed with style, held the point and displayed style in every matter because the ground application dis played by run was better, with no way to see how he handled his point.
I have heard about dogs winning trial's without finds.

YES.

They will all point, but not all can find birds.

I have never had to place a dog without a find, I have held a second series.

[Chukar12]

I have only been in trials for 5 years but I have yet to see or hear of a birdless dog winning a broke dog stake....AF included. I am sure there are examples but they are few and far between...

[Neil]

I have only been in trials for 5 years but I have yet to see or hear of a birdless dog winning a broke dog stake....AF included. I am sure there are examples but they are few and far between...

It mostly happens in AF Derby, rarely in adult stakes. A couple times I have seen a championship converted to 1-2-3 due to a lack of birdwork, the conditions so bad, with no hope of improvement, there was no reason for a second series.

But it is so rare the discussion is hypothetical.

Most often we have several dogs with both a great application matched with bird work.

[slistoe]

In a throw down trial I would place ground application over number of finds any day. I have seen dogs that go to all the right places that they would find wild birds and go birdless, all the while their brace mate is in the horse path pointing birds like crazy. Obviously the planter is the problem, but I want to see a dog get off the horse path and find birds.

So a dog that has not displayed any style on point and has not shown any control on point (as letting down or breaking) but only displayed good ground application should win against a dog that has pointed with style, held the point and displayed style in every matter because the ground application dis played by run was better, with no way to see how he handled his point.
I have heard about dogs winning trial's without finds.

:roll: Yeah, that is just about exactly what he said.

[Sharon]

I have only been in trials for 5 years but I have yet to see or hear of a birdless dog winning a broke dog stake....AF included. I am sure there are examples but they are few and far between...

It mostly happens in AF Derby, rarely in adult stakes. A couple times I have seen a championship converted to 1-2-3 due to a lack of birdwork, the conditions so bad, with no hope of improvement, there was no reason for a second series.

But it is so rare the discussion is hypothetical.

Most often we have several dogs with both a great application matched with bird work.

Yes , that's my experience too. For our weekend trials not uncommon to with hold second/third placements, a decision which I definitely support - unless it's my dog.

[slistoe]

Placements without birds. The closest I saw was when I won a weekend stake with a stop to flush on a Sharptail. I am sure there were other dogs in the stake that had better ground application than my dog, but there was a sparcity of birds and the only other dog to find a bird handled it well but went missing and was not returned to judgement. So they gave the dog with a mannerly stf the win over better ground races with no bird contact. Second and third places went to the dogs that the judges liked on ground race.

In CKC/AKC there is a requirement to find a bird to be considered for placement in all stakes except puppy.

[Grange]

My setter won a wild bird AF open shooting dog trial with out having a bird during the brace. The judges had a call back with the top 4 dogs and put them on released quail to see the bird work. My setter handled it perfectly and was named the winner. I was so nervous because I had been training on wild bird all fall and hadn't used quail for close to a year so I wasn't sure how she was going to react to a planted bird. I remember when she solidly locked on point while looking like a million bucks I let out a quiet sigh. I went to work the bird and it flushed maybe 10 yards before it went down. I didn't care I just stood there staring at my setter until someone told to me collar my dog.

On the flip side my setter was in a released bird AF Open Shooting Dog Trial where under terrible conditions only three dogs made it through cleaning. My dog was technically one of them but since she didn't have a bird the third place was withheld. I was disappointed at the time because it was just a weekend trial and it would have my setter's first open shooting dog placement, but I understood why it was withheld.