How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

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kninebirddog
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How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:28 am

This relates to ALL Formats. American FIeld AKC NSTRA etc.

Personally I think having bird planters that can release birds that will stay in the area they are put/released and WHERE they put them can be crucial to the quality of a trial.

I see at some weekend trials where they don't have the same person releasing birds that one person puts birds at point A C and E then next person helping out put birds out at points B D and F and quickly dogs can't go 15 yards with out coming across the birds or what I call bottom feeders are the people that just drop birds in the tracks so that only the dogs that run the path or tracks of the course stumbles across the birds. I watched an AKC trial where a guy on a 4 wheeler lags way behind the gallery and literally was tossing birds to the side :roll: He had no concept of birds work for field trials he was used to hunt tests with little bird fields so there wasn't looking for objectives ..But he was trying to help get birds out for the trial.


So why do some clubs put very little thought to their bird planters? IN NSTRA they pay the bird planter so that way good bad or in different everyone gets the same job of planting through out the day.

When you are watching an All Age dog making a huge cast to some objective or area and you have a bird planter that won't reach for those spots to release birds, don't you think it only leads to average pointing work versus when that dog reaches for those areas and gets a find ( Literally getting rewarded for reaching out for that area)

What are your thoughts...Should clubs think more about it where birds have to be released in order to have a trial?

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by trueblu » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:58 am

I would say you've hit one of the major problems with field trialing and the supposed attempt to replicate bird hunting. Typically the bird planter is the person who is standing around doing nothing. The person who happens to be at a trial, maybe their first. They get stuck on a horse, they don't ride, they sure can't get the herd sour horse they're on to leave the gallery. So, where do birds end up? Right on horsepaths, trees right next to horsepaths, etc. The derby dog who hunts likely objectives, particularly the objectives that are far edges, near draws, where birds would likely congregate in a wild bird hunting situation, goes birdless. The puppy who stretches to far tree lines, to far draws, goes birdless. Yes, IMHO puppy stakes should have birds. The sad derby pup that doesn't hunt, runs the path, barely gets our from under the handler, if at all, has 6 finds. Then, the owner is "rewarded" with a win. Best dogs go home with nothing, time after time. If the bird planter was a hunter, an experienced trialer, who could ride well, could ride OFF away from the gallery. Who only planted more distant objectives and closer ones that required a dog to SEEK birds, then better dogs as a whole could be used. Having inexperienced bird planters is about even with having judges who are not hunters and who have only field trialed. Actually, same can be said for hunting tests. 'Cept it's FAR worse at those events!!

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by JKP » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:24 am

Can be a big problem. Would be nice if the test director or Senior judge, with knowledge of the course and taking conditions in to account, would instruct experienced planters. I have been at events where birds are put in the same place time and time again such that my grandmother could detect the scent cone from the local mall. Sometimes in an effort to provide equality for all, what we do is to deny exceptionalism. Its the tough birds that define a dog....the tough retrieve and that is best seen on the prairie or in the flooded timber.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:40 am

When I plant/seed/salt/release what ever term you prefer to call it I like to stick to Areas ( this doesn't mean the same bush or cover but a likely obective where the dogs will reach to for the type of stake being run. I do not like to see a course turn into a gauntlet of birds where a dog doesn't have a chance to show its field/course/seeking objective abilities. There is a fine line and when you only have one course to work with for each stake you make the best of it as you can.

Here in the west sometimes cover is pretty sparse and Hawks ravens crows and coyotes can be pretty frustrating to deal with :evil: :evil: :evil: .Specially the Hawks Ravens and Crows as if you are not putting the birds where they have protection from them the quail and chukar do not stand a chance for the next brace to have a chance at finding them.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Grange » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:01 pm

I have planted birds at several trials over the years and I hate it when a bird planter plants the birds in the same place brace after brace. When I'm planting, whether it's pheasant or quail, I do my best to make sure the bird won't immediately fly or run off the field, but I also don't want the bird to go into a coma. With quail it is fairly easy as simply covering them in cover is often all that is needed. Pheasant are somewhat trickier and putting them to sleep too deeply can kill them and to lightly they may leave the field.

When I'm planting I look for likely cover and try to be cognizant that the objective is for the dogs to show their abilities thus I try to place them in an area I know a dog has a chance to find them. I mean what's the point on planting a bird in a area the dog isn't likely to go whether it's poor habitat or the course takes the dog away from the area?

I've seen hawks pick off some birds that had already been planted and that's just part of a trial.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by dan v » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:17 pm

You can rank the importance of a few trial essentials pretty quick.

Good grounds.
Good bird planter.
Good birds.
Good Judges.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:19 pm

In planted bird trials there will never be any "limb" finds if the bird planters aren't sprinkling a couple to make it possible. Having birds stay absolutely put may be more important in a trial format where there is relatively limited space and birds can move out of bounds where they become unusable for the trial. I think that birds that move around a little from the place they are dropped actually increases the ability of the dogs to find the birds. Another thing that is important when selecting locations for planting is to pay attention to the wind direction. Tucked in birds that have not moved will not have much of a scent cone spreading out from them - putting them on the upwind side of a dense piece of cover 30 to 50 yards across will almost assure the bird will never be found.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by rinker » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:45 pm

I know that in some cases it is necessary, but I do not like dizzied birds. In a trial where there is a defined boundary, I'm sure that it has to be done. Generally if a bird is released it will fly to an edge or other cover of some kind. Yes, they will occasionally just drop to the ground also. If they are allowed to fly out, then they are not close to an atv, or horse track of any kind.

A decent judge should be able to figure out which dogs are running the path and finding birds and dogs that are really reaching and maybe having fewer finds.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Sharon » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Every post is right on - a first! :) Knowledgeable bird planter is essential.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:15 pm

It is extremely important, perhaps the most important, a judge can only judge the bird work if the dog finds them. As said, many times good dogs will run outside the planted birds.

It is not just drop down trials, many times in pre-released trials, the birds are anchored in unnatural places, places that would never hold wild birds.

I have written on how to do it properly, quoting Gerald Tracy and other Hall of Famers. Identifying the problem and presenting the solution is not enough.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by kninebirddog » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:27 pm

I also think it is important for the Bird planters to follow the braces closly enough that they can see where dogs are going so if one area isn't being run to that more birds are not wasted there as Neil stated and there is nothing more frustrating then watching brace after brace with big running dogs and a bird planter that just feeds the gallery path. It is about Bird Dogs and yeah there are those Blue Jay days where bird work is all about none exsistant with everyone wondering if the dogs could find a bird if it were pinned to the nose good bird planters or not. But yes rewarding dogs with thosebig reaches and rewarding judges with quality bird work makes for agood day at the trials.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by jetjockey » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:17 pm

If the dogs aren't hitting a certain area on a course, that's where I want the birds. Make the dogs go out and look for them. I HATE when birds are thrown down in the middle of the course. If my dog finds one or two birds in the middle of the course, that's where she stays. If she isn't finding birds, she goes looking for them. And that is much more impressive to the judges. And I say that knowing full well my dog has placed in, and won trials where she never had a limb find. But its not just about winning, its about the quality of the dog work. Id rather lose knowing my dog had a great race hunting all the proper locations and edges but came up birdless, than win with a run straight up the middle and 4 finds in the hour. Three weeks ago I placed in a trial where the exact thing happened. My dog had 4 finds in the hour and never had to run to the edges. After the second find I was hoping she would stretch her legs and pour it on like I know she can. However, she never did, and she ended up with 2 more finds right in the middle of the course with a substandard race for her. Absolutely drove me nuts, yet we placed. I think she could have won with 2 finds and a heck of a run, but there was no reason for her to run when every 15 minutes she'd find a bird in the middle of the course. IMO, bird planters should have some knowledge of wild bird hunting, what proper cover looks like, and what time of day the birds will use that cover. Too many of the weekend trials have WAY too many birds on the course. Believe it or not, its OK if dogs go birdless, it shouldn't be easy for them.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by JKP » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:17 pm

Hopefully a judging team and experienced planters know what likely cover is...the objectives that a good dog should hit. Isn't that where the birds should be?? one thing I found at the (few) MH tests I went to was that the back course was empty and the birds were in the middle of a bird field...not in likely cover (and I'm sure they're not all that way). The trials on liberated birds at Assunpink appeared to have a lot of dogs on the milk route, cruising the hedgelines until they found a bird. Its tough to simulate real conditions.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Grange » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:44 pm

slistoe wrote:In planted bird trials there will never be any "limb" finds if the bird planters aren't sprinkling a couple to make it possible. Having birds stay absolutely put may be more important in a trial format where there is relatively limited space and birds can move out of bounds where they become unusable for the trial. I think that birds that move around a little from the place they are dropped actually increases the ability of the dogs to find the birds. Another thing that is important when selecting locations for planting is to pay attention to the wind direction. Tucked in birds that have not moved will not have much of a scent cone spreading out from them - putting them on the upwind side of a dense piece of cover 30 to 50 yards across will almost assure the bird will never be found.
Not so much in my experience. The birds, especially quail, in the trials I plant often don't completely fly out of the area. One of the venues I run and plant is basically a big circle. I will plant a bird or two on the outer edges of the circle because in my opinion the dogs should be checking these areas out when the handler is walking the course properly. Where handlers run into problems is when they cut the course too close to the inside and thus the dog may not get to the outer edge.

I agree with you on the wind direction. I check it between braces when I'm planting.

Someone suggested the planter follow the dogs to see where they go. That is what the bird planters do in our trials do. If I see a flushed bird fly to one area I rarely will go there and plant another bird. The bird may "wash" it's scent with the flush, but by the time the next brace comes there should be enough scent.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:32 pm

I seem to recall the AKC rules saying to replant a bird from where one flushed, which shows how little the authors know about latent scent.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by shags » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:35 pm

The AKC red book suggests that birds be put in new spots between braces.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:43 pm

My pointer as a derby went birdless almost every time. He was always on the edges, never in the path. Yet his 8 month of old brace mate had 6 finds in the path. He won, I did not place.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:47 pm

shags wrote:The AKC red book suggests that birds be put in new spots between braces.
I was wrong. The AKC Rule Book says to "- replace birds that have been flushed off the course". Some bird planters take that to mean the same place. A faulty memory.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:58 pm

Elkhunter wrote:My pointer as a derby went birdless almost every time. He was always on the edges, never in the path. Yet his 8 month of old brace mate had 6 finds in the path. He won, I did not place.
And that is painful for a judge. I have often held a scond series to show the Derbies on birds. Which annoys the club officals and those that had bird work; and is often a train wreck, those big running Derbies are hard to keep in a bird field.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by dan v » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:59 pm

Elkhunter wrote:My pointer as a derby went birdless almost every time. He was always on the edges, never in the path. Yet his 8 month of old brace mate had 6 finds in the path. He won, I did not place.
Yeah...but he make YOU happy?

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:27 am

Absolutely, not too worried how they do as a derby. He is killing it as a broke dog so I am happy.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by ultracarry » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:23 am

Neil wrote:
shags wrote:The AKC red book suggests that birds be put in new spots between braces.
I was wrong. The AKC Rule Book says to "- replace birds that have been flushed off the course". Some bird planters take that to mean the same place. A faulty memory.
There should be a rule about having to plant a minimum of 75-100 yds off of the horse track....

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by whatsnext » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:46 am

This is a question because i am ignorant on this subject, How does a judge score a dog in a released trial as opposed to a wild bird trial ? Is a find at an objective the dog goes to and has a find at a wild bird trial scored differently as a find in a released bird trial in an unlikely or haphazardly placed location? I would think in a released trial that a dog's run or search would be worth more than a find,also are wild bird trial's worth more (if that is the correct wording) or viewed differently?

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:56 am

whatsnext wrote:This is a question because i am ignorant on this subject, How does a judge score a dog in a released trial as opposed to a wild bird trial ? Is a find at an objective the dog goes to and has a find at a wild bird trial scored differently as a find in a released bird trial in an unlikely or haphazardly placed location? I would think in a released trial that a dog's run or search would be worth more than a find,also are wild bird trial's worth more (if that is the correct wording) or viewed differently?

ABSOLUTELY wild bird trials are more prestigious.

Though some people dont have a choice to run wild bird trials, so they run what is available. Which is great, and there are some good lib trials also. Just depends on how much effort goes into making them good.

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Re: How important do you feel Bird Planters are to a Trial?

Post by jetjockey » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:14 pm

How about having to judge a trial with both, such as places like Di-Lane Plantation? You could have a dog with 1 amazing limb find on a wild covey, and a dog with 4 "trial finds", but looked great on its birds and ran a nice race as well. It makes it tough on a judge, and that's why the good ones don't count finds. People outside the trial world, or people without a ton on of experience in trials (which includes me), wont understand why the dog with the most finds didn't win. At a recent trial at Di-Lane the first day they moved 7 or 8 wild coveys, and the next day, not a single wild covey was seen.

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