Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

[Del Lolo]

As I said before, I want my dogs steady to F/S/F in all circumstances.
With that said, there can be instances where a dog breaking on shot might be alright, such as a lone Rooster.
But, what happens to marking ability when you are hunting early season grouse -- while the birds are still in Family Groups -- and you have the chance to shoot two birds (or maybe even 3 birds).
If a dog breaks and is chasing after the first one shot, not only might it put a dog in danger, but the dog is almost for sure not going to be able to mark that 2nd (or 3rd) bird.

[slistoe]

Looks like the thin skin is showing alright. Nothing personal at all from my end - I would say the same to anyone whose opinions about dogs and dog work were out of touch with reality. I did give you a pass the first time around, but when you felt compelled to reiterate your fallacy I pointed out how illogical your thoughts were. You can change that if you choose.
There is one definition of steady. Dogs are Staunch or they are Steady.
It is interesting that the retriever folk do not have the same view of having a steady dog being an insurmountable training obstacle.

[Grousehunter123]

As I said before, I want my dogs steady to F/S/F in all circumstances.
With that said, there can be instances where a dog breaking on shot might be alright, such as a lone Rooster.
But, what happens to marking ability when you are hunting early season grouse -- while the birds are still in Family Groups -- and you have the chance to shoot two birds (or maybe even 3 birds).
If a dog breaks and is chasing after the first one shot, not only might it put a dog in danger, but the dog is almost for sure not going to be able to mark that 2nd (or 3rd) bird.

Well, Del Lolo you did it; you drew me out when I said I was done. The OP has his answers and I guess now it's an internet pissing match so here goes....

You ain't a grouse hunter of any repute......you just can't be.....I can tell by your example which serves only to cause a debate and not be of much benefit other than that.

To fire off a likely killing shot at ONE......much less TWO OR THREE in early season grouse cover is hard enough to do. It is a rare thing for the human, much less the dog, to mark any fall. It's hard enough to kill ONE grouse at a time in early season. BUT TWO OR THREE.?? You're just being comical by using this example for anything BUT to start a pissing contest. A true ruffed grouse hunter who hunts as many days per week as I do knows exactly what I mean by all of the above.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You said: "As I said before, I want my dogs steady to F/S/F in all circumstances".

Then you turned 180 degrees from your earlier statement and said: "With that said, there can be instances where a dog breaking on shot might be alright, such as a lone Rooster". (I happen to agree here).

You then took off your hat, shyte right in it and came up with your cock and bull hypothetical grouse hunting TRIPLE KILL!! LOL!! LOL!!

I hope the new, young and enthusiastic hunters/trainers can separate the wheat from the chaff in this thread to save themselves years of frustration by following bad advice.

[JKP]

My experience has been that when hunting with other dogs, its really best to have them steady till sent. If dogs are running with the fall, how are are folks handling the situation? Are you shooting the wild flushes if a dog busts another bird?
How about two or three dogs running for the retrieve of one bird??

[MJB64]

Hey Grousehunter123,
I have seen those family groups get up one at a time. One time I actually hit more than one, and I can stink it up pretty bad with my shooting sometimes. The dog that I had at the time was not steady. He chased the first one and never marked the second. It can happen.

Mike

[Grousehunter123]

My experience has been that when hunting with other dogs, its really best to have them steady till sent. If dogs are running with the fall, how are are folks handling the situation? Are you shooting the wild flushes if a dog busts another bird?
How about two or three dogs running for the retrieve of one bird??

Depends on the bird species and which gun (# of shells). I do not shoot if the dog flushes (isn't staunch) the bird it is pointing. But generally yes. If I produce the bird to wing, shoot my gun and the dog then breaks (which I prefer when hunting) and more birds get up I shoot at them as well.

I only hunt with my dogs or dogs I know and it's first come first serve on the retrieve.

[Grousehunter123]

Hey Grousehunter123,
I have seen those family groups get up one at a time. One time I actually hit more than one, and I can stink it up pretty bad with my shooting sometimes. The dog that I had at the time was not steady. He chased the first one and never marked the second. It can happen.

Mike

Good shooting. I know it can happen. It's the exception not the rule. In fact it is rare enough that the Ruffed Grouse Society accepts your testimony on multiple grouse kills and gives recognition for it. It's like a hole in one. Have you submitted your story to them? Would you like their email address?

Edit... By the way, after that experience did you then train your dog to be steady to wing, shot and fall? Or did you figure it wasn't necessary and leave it alone?

[Grange]

To fire off a likely killing shot at ONE......much less TWO OR THREE in early season grouse cover is hard enough to do. It is a rare thing for the human, much less the dog, to mark any fall. It's hard enough to kill ONE grouse at a time in early season. BUT TWO OR THREE.?? You're just being comical by using this example for anything BUT to start a pissing contest. A true ruffed grouse hunter who hunts as many days per week as I do knows exactly what I mean by all of the above.

Early season grouse are a heck of a lot easier than late season grouse. They are more apt to hold than late season grouse so even though marking is more difficult early in the season than later due to the foliage a steady dog has less of a chance at busting the birds that may be holding tight. I'm a terrible shot, but I have opportunites to take more than one bird off a point because they all didn't flush right away. Had my setter not been broke to the fall much less the shot I'm not sure if I would have had that opportunity.

[Grange]

I don't know exactly who coined the phrase "And fall" but whoever that was didn't know that broke to "Wing and shot" includes the fall.

I use "and fall" a lot because to me there is a difference. I think this way because when I think of a broke dog stake in a trial (AF) there is no falling bird and blank pistols are used most of the time. At least with my dog and the dogs I've hunted with being broke in a trial did not always translate to being broke when hunting. I think a lot of dogs know the difference between a shotgun shot and blank pistol shot and the fall is another temptation compared to watching the bird fly away. I've seen some pretty quiet blank pistols in trials and it made me wonder why they were so quiet.

[Chukar12]

Oilcan, I think the pros and cons have probably been covered. When the blustering and posturing has subsided I think you will find this. It is harder to keep a dog broke than not, if your desire is manners in dog work and the only thing that will scratch your itch while hunting is shooting birds the way you want, rather than shooting birds at every opportunity then you need to keep them broke. Likewise if you intend to compete in traditional trials. The reasons for dogs being fully broke are legitimate and have been sacrificed out of convenience and convenience only, including the dogs I have let revert. Here is why...

Marking...this is purely physics. Two bodies in motion v 1 stationary and 1 moving. A dog not moving has a better chance of establishing where a bird goes, in thick cover the advantage can be negated, in the open as a bird sails a dog that sees where the bird comes down wastes no time in the search between here and there.

Safety ... a dog that breaks at the flush, shot or fall is at risk. that risk is greater the more guns birds and dogs there are. the argument to this is "I am safe and all I hunt with are" or "I hunt alone" these may be legitimate and you have to decide if you take the risk. There are an amazing number of dogs that spend their life with stray pellets in them, I would venture most of the rentals at the put in place pheasant farms.

Efficiency ... Covey birds often will hold for multiple flushes but not if a dog is running through it.

Again, in my opinion the only legitimate advantage of a dog that self releases is that the training of the dog ends a step before the most complicated piece and the piece that is the most difficult to maintain. Advanced trainers in all disciplines, pointers, flushers and retrievers have established this for decades and decades. The important thing to note is that it is not a lesser dog, it is simply one less step in training...I have yet to know anyone that has trained to that level that will tell you that the lesser level has any advantage other than convenience. However, you will find a plethora of people that have trained to half the equation that will explain to you why something they have not consistently experienced is the only way to go...especially in their neck of the woods.

[ultracarry]

^ well said.

[Grousehunter123]

I agree it's not a one size fits all. It does come down to individual preferences and experiences. I also think it comes down to the dog.

A couple years ago it was mid season (when you'd think the grouse weren't in groups) I was hunting a place without water. I stopped on a tote road to water my dog. When I stopped, 40 yards out in an unusual area which had a semi open area kind of like an island, out flew a grouse. CRAP!! After I watered the dog I sent him on. Naturally he hit this objective area and locked on point. I worked it just like I would if I thought there was a bird there for the dog. When I got in out flew ANOTHER GROUSE. I shot once and missed. The dog stayed on point. I too a step toward the dog to tap him to move on and boom, out goes number three which I did scratch down. Sorry if I offended anyone or their preferred methods. Seriously, I'm just trying to help the OP and get a few elbows in on the guys who poked at me first. There is enough anti hunters out there that we should all band together no matter how we chose to train our dogs.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

when i was thinking steady to shot it didn't even cross my mind i might miss.LOL

You're obviously a better than average shooter. Of course that is good positive thinking.

Nate

[polmaise]

Great thread (imo) ..including the passionate responses If it is any comfort , most of the UK forums are exactly the same !
I thought about starting a new one! Forgive me 'oilcan' ?..It would probably help me and possibly you and others if it were stretched out a bit?..Of course I understand if this is not suitable (admin) please remove.

I read all the comments from different folks on safety ,and 'Broke dogs' and marking ,different game types ,cover and lone roosters as well as covey birds and how they act ,along with the difference of 'fall' or wing shot etc...and that's all fine! ....I along with most could come up with a hundred different scenarios in the shooting/hunting world that could claim and counter claim each and every individual event or events?

oilcan's original question was obviously from a gsp hunters view where he was asking rightly , a simple question of steady to flush or shot? ..Most posters quite rightly reply from a personal experience and the 'perception' of what they believe the OP was 'visioning' ?...

The thread took a twist , and is normal and should be (imo) ..If we are all talking about the way we hunt /compete/train our dogs then that surely has to have some benefit for us all?
Talking about 'Steady to flush or steady to shot' ...Here is a clip taken on a driven shoot in the UK .I was handling 5 dogs at the time all non slip , one of them was 'In training' so forgive the squeak from the dog Laika' in the middle of the clip (that is what she is in training for) the other dogs are trained and two are spaniels.A colleague of mine and a member here (Trekmoor) was some 100 yards to my right but I couldn't see him or his cockers

There is No 'marking' here!..The dog(s) have to be steady to shot there is 8 guns so intense on shooting the birds being ''driven'' over them and towards 'US' that the dog(s) also have to be steady to game flying past and landing at our feet. They must also be acute enough to retrieve (when sent) to retrieve the shot bird amongst all the live game that has landed or 'is' in that area that they are sent! and ignore all the gunshot activity around. Ok, these are retrievers, but I believe an HPR (gsp) - should retrieve!
The first dog sent is a veteran of 3 years and she could find a dead bird in a lead tin box hidden in the Florida Everglades amongst 100 flamingos if she was sent in the direction of where the injured bird fell. The second dog sent is just a yearling cast into the abyss!..there are several dead birds in that area ,but 'we' want the cripple.
No one mentioned 'nose' or scent in any of the posts ?
This is clip (a) .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPvUQVgzTSE

[Neil]

But I did mention scent, it is very important. The dogs gets to the area from a mark or sent on a blind and hunts it out.

[Trekmoor]

I remember that drive ....or what I could see of it through the mist ! Yes, I was covering the woods about 100 yards off to your right with my 3 nutcase cockers. I also remember my craziest cocker , Charlie, sneaking off from heel as we headed back to the cars without either of us spotting him go. :roll: He came back with a bird we hadn't even known had fallen , that sort of retrieve may not be conducive to good steadiness but it does help put birds into the bag where they belong.

If I trial a dog, I get it steady and keep it steady but I must admit to giving non- trial dogs a bit more leeway after they are fully trained . The trouble with doing that is, of course, if I give them the inch they try to take the mile .... and too often succeed ! I only have one completely steady dog at present and that is the one I train and work for someone else. I don't feel I have the right to ruin her since she does not belong to me.

Bill T.