Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

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bhulisa
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Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by bhulisa » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:52 am

Hi All,

I am curious as to what is allowed, or not allowed, in terms of any sort of commands that are allowed to be used in a field trial during flushing of the bird, after the flush, and after the shot and/or retrieve.

In our field trials in South Africa, at Open or Championship Stake level, you may not give what are considered "checking commands" at any time your dog is on point, or during the flush, or after the flush, shot, retrieve. By checking command I refer to a command used to keep your dog steady, stationary, or to cause it to remain in place or sit to flush or shot etc. Many of the dogs here are trained to sit to flush and shot. However, whether they stand to flush/shot or sit to flush/shot is immaterial. They must just not move forward.

If a handler were to give a definite command while flushing or after the flush, such as WHOA, STEADY or SIT, STAY etc, the dog would be either heavily penalized or eliminated from the stake, depending on the circumstances. The same holds true for the shot - dogs must be steady to shot without command of any sort.

What is allowed, or not, in your trials? I refer mainly to AKC or AF trials, broke dog stakes.

Thanks, Trudi

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by shags » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:36 am

Commands are allowed, but if they're excessive it takes away from the dog's performance. Personally I don't mind a quiet "whoa" or "whup" as a caution during an extended flushing attempt, or even an easy one, but a handler who remains silent is showing me he really trusts his dog. Screaming "Whoa!!! Whoa!!!" in my opinion is poor handling and makes the dog look really bad; if the dog is steady it still looks like he can't be trusted, and if he breaks he definitely exposes himself as disobedient and unreliable.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by JKP » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:43 am

Given equal performance, will the dog not needing vocal help be looked on more favorably??

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by ultracarry » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:12 am

^ yes

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by Karen » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:19 am

If the dog stands there, high head, high tail and as intense as ever and the word "whoa" doesn't put any visible pressure on the dog, I really don't care what the handler does or says while flushing. A dog that wants to break will let down, it's tail will tick or drop, his head will move around....you'll SEE the pressure all over the dog.

Same goes for silent flusher. Watch them....most walk in front of the dog, hold up a finger to the dog...THAT can put pressure on a dog that wants to break...or that's been hammered on in training.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:31 am

An interesting question. In Britain most of the H.P.R.'s (versatile) gundogs taking part in trials would be eliminated under South African rules. It would appear your judges are stricter than ours are. I have heard handlers use the stop whistle and give vocal commands in order to ensure steadiness even in the HPR Championships. Personally, I think the bird flushing should be the dogs steadiness or "stay" command but my ideas differ from what I usually see in trials for these breeds.

Bill T.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:10 am

I knew a fellow had a trial wise dog so he clipped the CC on it every time in practice - the dog handled perfect because it knew it was hooked up. When approaching the dog on point he thumbed the clip on his CC. Dog performed perfectly.
Commands are an odd thing - sometimes when dogs do "weird" things we have to take a close look and see what we are doing that is cueing the dog into that behavior.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by DonF » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:35 am

Not familiar with the rules well any more. Used to be in AKC that the handler was allowed to quietly handle his dog but excessive handling was supposed to be frowned on. Standing in front of the dog yelling whoa could be defined not only as intimidation but also blocking, both frowned on. It is obvious to me that a handler doing that doesn't trust his dog. There's another handling problem that used to be out there, the handler turning his back on the flushing bird toward his dog to keep the dog there. Form of intimidation! And then the handler ask's the gunner, "up or down", referring to the bird. That was a no no that was always allowed, don't know if it is any more. Speaking of that in trials, in hunt test's the handler was, maybe still is, required to carry an empty gun and after flushing the bird, mount the gun and follow the flight of the bird, another mostly ignored rule! In your system exist's a similar flaw in bird dog performance that being the dog can't move. Actually the rule used to be here that the dog could move out of cover to mark a bird but if your dog did that, you were gone. My feeling is that the dog that moves out of cover to mark a fall is displaying exceptional skills. Well marked birds by the dog do not get away! One other thing here that maybe you have there is the dog relocating on it's own. There comes good work again that can really cost you here. The purpose of the dog is to find and locate accurately the bird for the hunter. If there is a bird running on the ground as your approaching and the dog does nothing about it, you may well turn a find into a non productive or what some judges might consider an poorly located bird. There are rule's that apply to the dog on point that if violated in real life hunting would show superior dog work. Very difficult for a dog to relocate on it's own to keep a bird accurately located for the handler. A lot of dogs will push it to a disaster. That is not meant to allow the dog to help in the flushing of the bird, a no no! So should the dog move at all on point? If you want a very good bird dog, at times if it can without moving the bird. But the rules of trialing deem it a fault, I have no idea why.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by ultracarry » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:43 am

The shouldering of a gun is something in hunt tests / not trials.

For trials I will turn and look at the dog because if I don't like the way my dog looks after the bird is shot I will pick it up. Even if it isn't an infraction. For my older dog I just watch the bird to make sure it's hit. Depends on the situation but you can always make sure the bird is hit or where it eventually landed after a blank.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:55 am

DonF wrote: In your system exist's a similar flaw in bird dog performance that being the dog can't move. Actually the rule used to be here that the dog could move out of cover to mark a bird but if your dog did that, you were gone. My feeling is that the dog that moves out of cover to mark a fall is displaying exceptional skills. Well marked birds by the dog do not get away!
There never was a rule stating the dog could move out of cover - the rule stated that a "reasonable move to mark the flight of a bird" was acceptable. The interpretation of that statement from somewhere in the era of the 40's in AFTCA was "no significant forward movement" (going from memory on the exact wording). Personally I have used a dog in judgement that moved forward through heavy cover to mark the flight - but it was the only time I ever witnessed it. I also placed once with a dog moving out of cover to mark the flight. Lots of dogs moved out of cover, supposedly to mark the flight, but the handler stopped them with a command leaving no option but to judge it as a controlled break.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by bhulisa » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:00 am

Don, in a retrieving trial here (HPR) the dog may move some if necessary to mark the fall, without penalty under the rules, although some judges might penalize the dog for it. In non-retrieving trials (British Breed or Pointer) moving to mark the fall would be heavily penalized, and most likely eliminating.

Our dogs may relocate on their own to establish the exact location of the bird(s), or to keep up with running birds, and are not penalized for it at all, provided birds are not flushed in the process.

Slistoe, I know of a handler that taught his dog to back at the sound of the safety catch on the shotgun :) (in the Pointer trials handler carry shotguns with black powder blanks). The judges caught it because the dog had been a rather notorious non-backer....suddenly rehabilitated :) click...click

This is an interesting discussion, thanks!

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:23 am

DonF wrote:There are rule's that apply to the dog on point that if violated in real life hunting would show superior dog work. Very difficult for a dog to relocate on it's own to keep a bird accurately located for the handler. A lot of dogs will push it to a disaster. That is not meant to allow the dog to help in the flushing of the bird, a no no! So should the dog move at all on point? If you want a very good bird dog, at times if it can without moving the bird. But the rules of trialing deem it a fault, I have no idea why.
There are no rules in trialing that fault a dog for relocating on a bird. Yes, a dog is faulted for knocking birds and the risk factor increases greatly on a relocate. Many handlers would rather risk the NP than the knock. Once the handler is in control of the situation the dog is also excluded from making decisions on its own and must then wait for the handler to instruct the relocate - display of proper manners.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:14 pm

bhulisa wrote:Don, in a retrieving trial here (HPR) the dog may move some if necessary to mark the fall, without penalty under the rules, although some judges might penalize the dog for it. In non-retrieving trials (British Breed or Pointer) moving to mark the fall would be heavily penalized, and most likely eliminating.

Our dogs may relocate on their own to establish the exact location of the bird(s), or to keep up with running birds, and are not penalized for it at all, provided birds are not flushed in the process.

Slistoe, I know of a handler that taught his dog to back at the sound of the safety catch on the shotgun :) (in the Pointer trials handler carry shotguns with black powder blanks). The judges caught it because the dog had been a rather notorious non-backer....suddenly rehabilitated :) click...click

This is an interesting discussion, thanks!
I wish that was the rule in AF. Definitely what I want in a hunting situation and would would make a trial more "natural".

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Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by ACooper » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:47 pm

slistoe wrote:I knew a fellow had a trial wise dog so he clipped the CC on it every time in practice - the dog handled perfect because it knew it was hooked up. When approaching the dog on point he thumbed the clip on his CC. Dog performed perfectly.
Commands are an odd thing - sometimes when dogs do "weird" things we have to take a close look and see what we are doing that is cueing the dog into that behavior.
Can't prove it but I'm fairly certain I've seen the same, but in a brow wipe with ball cap. Dog wouldn't back but could sure be whoa'd into a "back" when needed.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by ultracarry » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:03 pm

Nothing says you can't whoa a dog into a back in field trials though.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:04 pm

Sharon wrote:
bhulisa wrote:Don, in a retrieving trial here (HPR) the dog may move some if necessary to mark the fall, without penalty under the rules, although some judges might penalize the dog for it. In non-retrieving trials (British Breed or Pointer) moving to mark the fall would be heavily penalized, and most likely eliminating.

Our dogs may relocate on their own to establish the exact location of the bird(s), or to keep up with running birds, and are not penalized for it at all, provided birds are not flushed in the process.

Slistoe, I know of a handler that taught his dog to back at the sound of the safety catch on the shotgun :) (in the Pointer trials handler carry shotguns with black powder blanks). The judges caught it because the dog had been a rather notorious non-backer....suddenly rehabilitated :) click...click

This is an interesting discussion, thanks!
I wish that was the rule in AF. Definitely what I want in a hunting situation and would would make a trial more "natural".
While it is not expressly stated that it is permissable, there is also no rule excluding the behavior. I had the great fortune to attend a judging seminar with Freddie Epp one time and the question of relocation was brought up. His answer was to the effect that if you were hunting, what would you want your dog to do. If you read the guidelines to judicial practice you will find an interpretation that is very much the same as what is described from SA. That said, there is nothing that will excuse a lack of manners after the handler has taken control.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by shags » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:14 pm

Sharon wrote:
bhulisa wrote:Don, in a retrieving trial here (HPR) the dog may move some if necessary to mark the fall, without penalty under the rules, although some judges might penalize the dog for it. In non-retrieving trials (British Breed or Pointer) moving to mark the fall would be heavily penalized, and most likely eliminating.

Our dogs may relocate on their own to establish the exact location of the bird(s), or to keep up with running birds, and are not penalized for it at all, provided birds are not flushed in the process.

Slistoe, I know of a handler that taught his dog to back at the sound of the safety catch on the shotgun :) (in the Pointer trials handler carry shotguns with black powder blanks). The judges caught it because the dog had been a rather notorious non-backer....suddenly rehabilitated :) click...click

This is an interesting discussion, thanks!
I wish that was the rule in AF. Definitely what I want in a hunting situation and would would make a trial more "natural".
They can, can't they, as long as the handler hasn't moved in to flush. I've heard some guys say the beginning of the flush is once the handler dismounts. Others say when they've moved even with the dog.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by dan v » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:16 pm

The "problem" with a relocation, and why handlers will take the NP is pretty simple. If, while the dog is on the move, the bird or birds take flight you're out. Very hard to make the case it was a Stop to Flush....the dog knew the birds were there and his movement caused them to take flight. Stop to bump.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by bb560m » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:16 pm

Wyndancer wrote:The "problem" with a relocation, and why handlers will take the NP is pretty simple. If, while the dog is on the move, the bird or birds take flight you're out. Very hard to make the case it was a Stop to Flush....the dog knew the birds were there and his movement caused them to take flight. Stop to bump.
What if during the relocate the dog gets on the wrong side of the wind and the bird flies and the dog stops.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by Grange » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:17 pm

ultracarry wrote:Nothing says you can't whoa a dog into a back in field trials though.
I don't think it is that clear at least with shooting or AA dogs.

AFTCA states:
Backing
Section 14. In an All-Age or Shooting Dog Stake, it is mandatory that a judge order a dog up
if that dog demonstrates conclusively that is refused to back its bracemate.
NBHA states:
Section 15. BACKING STANDARDS
a. In a Shooting Dog Stake, it is mandatory that a judge order a dog up, if the dog, in the opinion of the
judge, demonstrates conclusively that it refuses to back its brace mate.
b. A handler may request permission from the judge to move a backing dog so as not to use up his allotted
time, if in the judge’s opinion, the pointed dog’s handler is taking too much time to flush.
c. Derby and puppy winners are not required to back.
So if in the judge's mind the only reason the dog stopped was because the whoa command was given then I think the dog should be picked up. Even if the dog isn't ordered up I doubt it looks good to a judge seeing a handler whoa the dog into a back.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by dan v » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:53 pm

bb560m wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The "problem" with a relocation, and why handlers will take the NP is pretty simple. If, while the dog is on the move, the bird or birds take flight you're out. Very hard to make the case it was a Stop to Flush....the dog knew the birds were there and his movement caused them to take flight. Stop to bump.
What if during the relocate the dog gets on the wrong side of the wind and the bird flies and the dog stops.
Did the dog cause the bird to take flight? The dog knew the bird was there somewhere, so you can't really say it's a stop to flush. He maybe didn't knock the bird on purpose but he knocked it, he's out of contention.....and there's yer double edged sword on relocation.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by DGFavor » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:50 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
bb560m wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:The "problem" with a relocation, and why handlers will take the NP is pretty simple. If, while the dog is on the move, the bird or birds take flight you're out. Very hard to make the case it was a Stop to Flush....the dog knew the birds were there and his movement caused them to take flight. Stop to bump.
What if during the relocate the dog gets on the wrong side of the wind and the bird flies and the dog stops.
Did the dog cause the bird to take flight? The dog knew the bird was there somewhere, so you can't really say it's a stop to flush. He maybe didn't knock the bird on purpose but he knocked it, he's out of contention.....and there's yer double edged sword on relocation.
I look it at it a little different than Dan regarding this scenario - I actually had this exact scenario judging this fall with finding dog pointed, handler made good flushing attempt without producing bird, relocated dog. While dog working briskly into wind on relocation sharptail comes up 10yds behind where dog originally pointed, remote from where dog currently working. Bird flew right past dog, dog styled up fine, watched it fly away. Not the ideal scenario by any means but the dog did nothing malicious - I pondered it, recorded an NP and STF in the book for the "event" and went on.

As far as "commands" or saying stuff to your dog...do what you feel you gotta do to handle your dog to win the thing. I'd advise not looking at it as commands but rather "helping" the dog - after all, we are the brains of the operation. It's hard to argue that less is likely better when it comes to talking/shouting/hollering/pleading but...but...well I could give a bunch of different scenarios where I'd advise saying something but suffice it to say most of the time when lamenting around the horse trailer after a disastrous outing I've never heard anyone say...."I'm glad I said nothing"...it's usually the opposite. :wink:

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by dan v » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:03 pm

Doc...my reply was pretty vague as to where the bird was compared to the dog when the bird took flight. You made the right call. That's the part of being there watching. Also, it one of the reasons I try not to be moving on the ground if the dog is on a relocate.

In reality...the scenario you describe is really a stellar piece of work. The dog had plenty of temptation to go with that bird.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by JKP » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:33 pm

I think a dog should be allowed to relocate while the judges observe. An experienced judge can tell when a dog bumped...they know caution when they see it. These should be hunting dogs too. Nothing more satisfying to see a dog relocate, even multiple times on moving game while maintaining manners. Don't get me wrong, I understand the rules and you have to play by them. But that is a quality of a great gun dog for me. I'm betting the majority of these dogs would have no problem with it.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by dan v » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:14 pm

JKP....at times a relocate can be a thrilling piece of bird work....handler taps the dog on the head, he goes off like a shot...BANG, sticks the bird. It's thrilling because of the other side of the coin.

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by Karen » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:05 pm

JKP, I can give you the name of a judge who will leave your dog down if a bird goes up on relocate. You have to be friends with him, but he'll leave your dog down :D (I don't waste entry fees to run under him anymore).

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Re: Field Trial Question - Commands allowed?

Post by original mngsp » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:43 pm

As far as "commands" or saying stuff to your dog...do what you feel you gotta do to handle your dog to win the thing. I'd advise not looking at it as commands but rather "helping" the dog - after all, we are the brains of the operation. It's hard to argue that less is likely better when it comes to talking/shouting/hollering/pleading but...but...well I could give a bunch of different scenarios where I'd advise saying something but suffice it to say most of the time when lamenting around the horse trailer after a disastrous outing I've never heard anyone say...."I'm glad I said nothing"...it's usually the opposite. :wink:
I always look at it as a handler im trying to paint a pretty picture for the judges. If the dog is doing its job well, just keeping quiet and letting that pretty picture develop on its own is usually a way to a win. That being said, you can say what you need to say to get your dog around. Good or bad, sometimes the blue ribbon boils down to the last dog standing ie....the one that gets around.

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