Another Question About "Singing"

[buckshot1]

I know this has come up before, but the information on this forum about this subject is very conflicting. I remember reading this thread last year on "singing": viewtopic.php?f=69&t=44053&p=405760&hil ... ng#p405760. The consensus in that thread seems to be that constantly "singing" to keep your dog aware of your location in a field trial is frowned upon by judges, competitors, and the AKC and possibly AFTCA rules. In particular, everyone seemed to agree that any singing that sounds anything like "whoa" is a big no-no.

So not having any experience with AF trials, I recently ordered the DVD of the 2013 National Championship out of curiosity. To my surprise, the one constant in every brace was that ALL the handlers were constantly making a loud noise that sounds a lot like whoa. It generally sounded something like "whoooooooooOOOOAAAAAAAA" repeated over and over again, with slight variations between handlers. I believe this video was posted in another thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FukGHrhm0&app=desktop. You can hear what I'm talking about starting at :35.

Now I'm totally confused. It does seem like most handlers are generally quieter at the AKC weekend trials that I've attended than what I was hearing on the AF National Championship DVD. Is it that "singing" more acceptable in AF than AKC or in all age than in gun dog, derby, or puppy? Please help me out if you can.

[bb560m]

Almost every AA stake in AKC I've watched the handlers were singing the whole time. "YOOOO" or similar like the video. You don't want to lose a dog and especially not at Ames after all that work.

Probably not as common in gun dog stakes in AKC because the dogs aren't the type that are running enormously huge and in fact should be keeping in contact.

[Trekmoor]

The theory here is that the human voice scares game so we try not to use it. Using voice does not seem to inconvenience the contestants in your trials , so, do you believe that the human voice does not scare off the very game that you want the dogs to find ?

Sorry for the red-herring. :roll:

Bill T.

[shags]

Huge difference between singing and hacking. In the thread you linked, the OP mentioned the handler "shouted" something that sounded like 'whoa'. Without hearing it, in my mind shouting would be hacking; but some handlers do something like "Yo! Yo! Yo!" So maybe that's what he meant. Nothing wrong with using anything that sounds like whoa...the dogs figure out inflection pretty darn fast. The Long O sounds carries very well, and can be done in a lower octave. Try using Long I or Long E. Screechy.

In the video you have to remember that those dogs could be far to the front or out of sight because of cover. So that's how the handler maintains contact. He sure doesn't want his dog coming back to see if he's still following.

Shooting dogs should handle kindly, and gun dogs kindlier still. Showing off that handling is enhanced by less vocalizing. I'd say that's why it might seem quieter in gun dog stakes.

[buckshot1]

Almost every AA stake in AKC I've watched the handlers were singing the whole time. "YOOOO" or similar like the video. You don't want to lose a dog and especially not at Ames after all that work.

Probably not as common in gun dog stakes in AKC because the dogs aren't the type that are running enormously huge and in fact should be keeping in contact.

That makes total sense. Obviously the dog can't keep track of you if he's out of sight unless you're making noise.

The poster in the other thread was referring to a puppy stake. Would it be ok to do some singing in a puppy or derby stake if you view your dog as an all age prospect? It seems like it might be confusing to a dog if you stayed quiet while he's a puppy/derby, then started singing at him in broke dog stakes.

[buckshot1]

The theory here is that the human voice scares game so we try not to use it. Using voice does not seem to inconvenience the contestants in your trials , so, do you believe that the human voice does not scare off the very game that you want the dogs to find ?

I believe it depends on the game. I'm with you in that I want to be ninja quiet when hunting most wild birds, especially pheasants. Most field trials, however, use planted bobwhites, which aren't usually scared off by noise. Also, I think that stealth is already out the door at a field trial whether or not the handlers are making noise given that the birds have a herd of horses, spectators, and a dog wagon coming at them.

[shags]

Almost every AA stake in AKC I've watched the handlers were singing the whole time. "YOOOO" or similar like the video. You don't want to lose a dog and especially not at Ames after all that work.

Probably not as common in gun dog stakes in AKC because the dogs aren't the type that are running enormously huge and in fact should be keeping in contact.

That makes total sense. Obviously the dog can't keep track of you if he's out of sight unless you're making noise.

The poster in the other thread was referring to a puppy stake. Would it be ok to do some singing in a puppy or derby stake if you view your dog as an all age prospect? It seems like it might be confusing to a dog if you stayed quiet while he's a puppy/derby, then started singing at him in broke dog stakes.

Definitely, just no hacking. What are puppy and derby stakes besides groundtime anyway? ( well, besides the derby win qualifier )

[MillerClemsonHD]

Almost every AA stake in AKC I've watched the handlers were singing the whole time. "YOOOO" or similar like the video. You don't want to lose a dog and especially not at Ames after all that work.

Probably not as common in gun dog stakes in AKC because the dogs aren't the type that are running enormously huge and in fact should be keeping in contact.

That makes total sense. Obviously the dog can't keep track of you if he's out of sight unless you're making noise.

The poster in the other thread was referring to a puppy stake. Would it be ok to do some singing in a puppy or derby stake if you view your dog as an all age prospect? It seems like it might be confusing to a dog if you stayed quiet while he's a puppy/derby, then started singing at him in broke dog stakes.

You shouldn't wait to start singing to your dog in broke stakes. That is something you have to train. If you are only going to sing during your brace then your not going to accomplish much. A good handler that is singing to their dog is telling them to do something with everything they are singing and the dog understands what is being asked of it. The pitch and tone of your voice means something too. You might think the same thing is being sung the whole time but that handler might be telling his dog to go on, you are good where you are, or come check in. Others you can watch them a few times and be able to tell what they are asking a dog to do.

I've seen attempts to sing to a dog look like hacking and hollering bc the dog had no clue what the handler was asking.

[buckshot1]

Almost every AA stake in AKC I've watched the handlers were singing the whole time. "YOOOO" or similar like the video. You don't want to lose a dog and especially not at Ames after all that work.

Probably not as common in gun dog stakes in AKC because the dogs aren't the type that are running enormously huge and in fact should be keeping in contact.

That makes total sense. Obviously the dog can't keep track of you if he's out of sight unless you're making noise.

The poster in the other thread was referring to a puppy stake. Would it be ok to do some singing in a puppy or derby stake if you view your dog as an all age prospect? It seems like it might be confusing to a dog if you stayed quiet while he's a puppy/derby, then started singing at him in broke dog stakes.

Definitely, just no hacking. What are puppy and derby stakes besides groundtime anyway? ( well, besides the derby win qualifier )

I know it's hard to describe noises with a keyboard, but would it be wrong to say that "hacking" is any noise that is more harsh and sounds like a correction?

[JKP]

Is singing the norm so that the dog won't come back toward the handler...in other words, allows the dog to keep track of you and stay to the front?? What would happen in most cases if a handler didn't 'sing"?

I've seen this discussed before but I think those unacquainted might like to know.

[RoostersMom]

I am so going to learn to be "Ninja Quiet" on pheasants.

But I'm also just starting out with some horseback trials and I'm going to learn to sing! Whoopie. I never was any good at the traditional, shower-stall kind of singing.

[shags]

Is singing the norm so that the dog won't come back toward the handler...in other words, allows the dog to keep track of you and stay to the front?? What would happen in most cases if a handler didn't 'sing"?

I've seen this discussed before but I think those unacquainted might like to know.

Look at MillerClemson's post above...it's all about handling.
No singing, depends on the dog. Some might come looking, others might head for the horizon.

[dan v]

Is singing the norm so that the dog won't come back toward the handler...in other words, allows the dog to keep track of you and stay to the front?? What would happen in most cases if a handler didn't 'sing"?

I've seen this discussed before but I think those unacquainted might like to know.

Look at MillerClemson's post above...it's all about handling.
No singing, depends on the dog. Some might come looking, others might head for the horizon.

Yep...depends on the dog.