BO REPEATS

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BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:13 am

Bo is a two time National Champion!!!!!!!!

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:18 am

Shadow_Oak_Bo.jpg
Congrats to the owners, handlers and scout!
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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by topher40 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:54 am

Cant wait to see what his pups go for now! :roll: Congrats to him and his crew though.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:57 am

And let's not forget Buddy Smith, who developed Bo and directed the breeding.

Oh, saw that Luke Esienhard was the scout, and not Robin's son, Hunter.

This is a big deal. It has been like 88 years since a setter has one it twice and 50 some since any dog has done it consecitively.

Look for Bo to be on the cover of PDJ, Ross Young painted his 2013 portrait vertically, do you think he was planning ahead?

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by fuzznut » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:01 pm

Very very cool!!!!! Congrats to everyone involved, from the breeders to the owners, handlers, scouts and to all who believed in him over the years!!!

Cannot believe the "boys" allowed it to happen!
While I have never been to this event, I follow it every year. Just love the tradition and all the drama involved. When we got to run there for the AKC Gun Dog.... I felt very honored.

Congrats Bo

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Grange » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:36 pm

That is pretty darn cool.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by DonF » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:40 pm

Anyone know how old he is? Great for field trialing that a setter broke the strangle hold on the pointer's not one but two times in a row. I do not believe there are not more Bo's out there!

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:44 pm

DonF wrote:Anyone know how old he is? Great for field trialing that a setter broke the strangle hold on the pointer's not one but two times in a row. I do not believe there are not more Bo's out there!
I understand 8...

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:02 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
DonF wrote:Anyone know how old he is? Great for field trialing that a setter broke the strangle hold on the pointer's not one but two times in a row. I do not believe there are not more Bo's out there!
I understand 8...
Yes, he is an honest 8, I saw him as a wee pup. Buddy used to be a neighbor.

Could he 3 peat?

Doubtful, but he has a couple more chances at it.

He has already made history.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by NC Quailhunter » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:34 pm

Way to go Bo !!! That is anamazing accomplishment. talk about setter revenge. Congratulations to all that made it to the National Championship.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:56 pm

That is awesome ! :D :o :)

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Gertie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:57 pm

Is it weird to have a crush on a dog? :lol: Simply awesome! Couldn't be happier than if he was my own. Well... maybe that's not entirely true but regardless. Go Bo!

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:07 pm

Tremendous accomplishment. I personally believe that a national champion should be given to the dog that has the best season. I don't believe Bo had that great of a year.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by slistoe » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:11 pm

sckwest1 wrote:Tremendous accomplishment. I personally believe that a national champion should be given to the dog that has the best season. I don't believe Bo had that great of a year.
I believe every venue has a dog of the year standings. Personally you can put whatever weight you want on each different accomplishment. Doesn't take away from the fact that this dog won the NC.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:52 pm

Wasn't trying to take away from any accomplishment in fact I stated that it was a tremendous accomplishment. Then I simply stated my own opinion that I believe a National Champion should be awarded to the Purina Points winner to be more specific. I will go further though and say that I think way to much emphasis is placed on one trial. There was almost no bird work the first week and everyone has admitted that luck of the draw plays a major role. Luck and best don't go together in my personal dictionary.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by dan v » Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:55 pm

sckwest1 wrote:Wasn't trying to take away from any accomplishment in fact I stated that it was a tremendous accomplishment. Then I simply stated my own opinion that I believe a National Champion should be awarded to the Purina Points winner to be more specific. I will go further though and say that I think way to much emphasis is placed on one trial. There was almost no bird work the first week and everyone has admitted that luck of the draw plays a major role. Luck and best don't go together in my personal dictionary.
That's BS.....While I don't have a dog the caliber of any of these dogs, I think I have a pretty nice one. Fact is, he is run very sparingly.....I just drag him out to win something important.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Melvin4730 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:22 pm

sckwest1 wrote:Wasn't trying to take away from any accomplishment in fact I stated that it was a tremendous accomplishment. Then I simply stated my own opinion that I believe a National Champion should be awarded to the Purina Points winner to be more specific. I will go further though and say that I think way to much emphasis is placed on one trial. There was almost no bird work the first week and everyone has admitted that luck of the draw plays a major role. Luck and best don't go together in my personal dictionary.

Isn't luck involved in every trial?

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by shags » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:32 pm

sckwest1 wrote:Wasn't trying to take away from any accomplishment in fact I stated that it was a tremendous accomplishment. Then I simply stated my own opinion that I believe a National Champion should be awarded to the Purina Points winner to be more specific. I will go further though and say that I think way to much emphasis is placed on one trial. There was almost no bird work the first week and everyone has admitted that luck of the draw plays a major role. Luck and best don't go together in my personal dictionary.
So a dog that's campaigned heavily and wins several hour stakes trumps a dog that runs fewer but wins several hour stakes AND a three hour marathon?

The same birds were out there for every one of those 38 dogs. Three dogs dug them up. It ain't all luck.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:39 pm

Melvin4730 wrote:
sckwest1 wrote:Wasn't trying to take away from any accomplishment in fact I stated that it was a tremendous accomplishment. Then I simply stated my own opinion that I believe a National Champion should be awarded to the Purina Points winner to be more specific. I will go further though and say that I think way to much emphasis is placed on one trial. There was almost no bird work the first week and everyone has admitted that luck of the draw plays a major role. Luck and best don't go together in my personal dictionary.

Isn't luck involved in every trial?
Luck is the product of talent and preparedness.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:39 pm

sckwest1 wrote:...I personally believe that a national champion should be given to the dog that has the best season...
NFL - No
NBA - No
NHL - No
MLB - No
NASCAR - No

They all have a playoff or "chase" to determine the winner. The team with the best season doesn't always win the championship. Wonder if it ever happened that the top dog of the year DID win the NC...hmmm...

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:48 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
sckwest1 wrote:...I personally believe that a national champion should be given to the dog that has the best season...
NFL - No
NBA - No
NHL - No
MLB - No
NASCAR - No

They all have a playoff or "chase" to determine the winner. The team with the best season doesn't always win the championship. Wonder if it ever happened that the top dog of the year DID win the NC...hmmm...
In part because of the bonus points, I would guess about half of the time the NC is the dog of the year. I have never calculated it, so it is just a guess.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Melvin4730 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:12 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
Melvin4730 wrote:
sckwest1 wrote:Wasn't trying to take away from any accomplishment in fact I stated that it was a tremendous accomplishment. Then I simply stated my own opinion that I believe a National Champion should be awarded to the Purina Points winner to be more specific. I will go further though and say that I think way to much emphasis is placed on one trial. There was almost no bird work the first week and everyone has admitted that luck of the draw plays a major role. Luck and best don't go together in my personal dictionary.

Isn't luck involved in every trial?
Luck is the product of talent and preparedness.

The wind, location of the birds, temperature, moisture in the air at the time of the brace and movement of the birds at the time of the brace are all out of the hands of the dogs and their handlers. There is always a bit of luck involved with any type of trial, be it squirrel hunts, rabbit hunts, bird hunts, etc. There is no way around this, because all the dogs cant be run on the same ground at the same time. Thats just the nature of the game. The most fair trials ive been around are coon and squirrel hunts/trials where they are full elimination hunts...you win your brace/cast...you move on to the next round. It takes some of the luck out of it. But, bird dog trials arent run this way.
Last edited by Melvin4730 on Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by DonF » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:13 pm

Melvin4730 wrote:Isn't luck involved in every trial?
I think it is. Probably at any level but at that level especially every dog has the stuff to win it, if, they get the right conditions on the right day. Not much different than when you go hunting and some day's you find a gold mine and some day's squat. But the performance of the dog's can't be very flawed. The last time I talked to Eric mauck, years ago, was the year Sunrise came so close. He was there and told me it's turned into a bird finding game. Well it surely may seem that way but for the most part I suspect the dog's are so evenly matched, to win the had better find birds, more than anyone else. I believe that it is also possible that a dog can put on such an amazing performance to overcome a find or two less. Pretty rare that a dog dominate's that way.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by hustonmc » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:09 pm

Melvin4730 wrote:
The wind, location of the birds, temperature, moisture in the air at the time of the brace and movement of the birds at the time of the brace are all out of the hands of the dogs and their handlers. There is always a bit of luck involved with any type of trial, be it squirrel hunts, rabbit hunts, bird hunts, etc. There is no way around this, because all the dogs cant be run on the same ground at the same time. Thats just the nature of the game. The most fair trials ive been around are coon and squirrel hunts/trials where they are full elimination hunts...you win your brace/cast...you move on to the next round. It takes some of the luck out of it. But, bird dog trials arent run this way.
NSTRA Purina Endurance Championship. 128 dogs entered, beat your brace mate. 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:27 pm

hustonmc wrote:
Melvin4730 wrote:
The wind, location of the birds, temperature, moisture in the air at the time of the brace and movement of the birds at the time of the brace are all out of the hands of the dogs and their handlers. There is always a bit of luck involved with any type of trial, be it squirrel hunts, rabbit hunts, bird hunts, etc. There is no way around this, because all the dogs cant be run on the same ground at the same time. Thats just the nature of the game. The most fair trials ive been around are coon and squirrel hunts/trials where they are full elimination hunts...you win your brace/cast...you move on to the next round. It takes some of the luck out of it. But, bird dog trials arent run this way.
NSTRA Purina Endurance Championship. 128 dogs entered, beat your brace mate. 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1
Also the Invitationals, most are 12 dogs, ran the first day for an hour, rebraced an ran another hour on day 2 (if am, then pm), call back dogs run an hour and half, winner's performance is judged on the whole 3 1/2 hours. Takes most of the luck out of it. They run on different courses with different bracemates at different times of the day.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:46 am

A few interesting points here. Someone said they dug the birds up, really? I think you could've taken a ton of good meat dogs and yes some of the followers of this boards German short hairs and Brittanys out there and dug up more birds. They would've hunted hard and got in the brush deep where the birds most likely were when they weren't moving, instead of just running the edge. If you're not finding birds should you just keep running the edge nice and fast or should you start working harder at finding the birds? Someone else quoted that they didn't have a dog of the caliber of the dogs running, are you sure? Have you ever ran with these so called "first class" dogs? Sorry I don't judge a dog by his run, but by how hard he hunts. That's right I used the fowl word for trialing HUNT. These dogs aren't super dogs, they're not Underdog or even Mr. Peabody. What they are is "bleep" good dogs, with good training, good owners(for the trialing game), and good handlers. I have stated for a long time that I believe the gundog folks would breed a better animal than the trial folks if it weren't for the fact that most of them make a commitment to the dog, good or bad. Where as the competitors cull much harder.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:55 am

As for the sports analogies most of them have playoffs not a single brace. And most of those playoffs involve a series of contests/games.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by bonasa » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:56 am

Congratulations to Bo and all that were involved.

Sckwest1,
By gundog folks breeding better dogs are you talking backyard breeding? What are you breeding for? Are you taking the best individual dogs and breeding them? What of the subpar dogs? Do you have a rubric to evaluate dogs abilities on so others can do the same and the breeds prosper? This is already in place, many places and breed specific at times. Or do you just want to have an us vs. them , trialer vs. hunter conversation?

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:35 am

Some of you folks really take stuff literally. I think and let me stress while making conversation these are my opinions simply meant to invoke conversation not arguments or insults. It's my belief that a lot of the trial folks are breeding putting to much focus on run. It is also my belief that a lot of gundog folks don't breed as selectively as the trial folks, note I did not say all. I believe a fair percentage of hunters/gundog folks consider a dog a commitment and they keep the dog unless he is absolutely horrible and even then sometimes rather than culling. Some of these gundogs are aces others are mediocre meat dogs. What separates them you ask, we all have our own opinion on that as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The point I am trying to make is I believe trial dogs are more selectively bred than gundogs on the average, thus most of us myself included get our dogs from proven trial stock. I also don't believe that these great trial dogs are better than the good gundogs and yes I do judge a dog mainly on his bird finding ability, of course he has to handle them correctly after finding them.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by JKP » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:40 am

Some of these gundogs are aces others are mediocre meat dogs.
I hope the term "meat dog" isn't being used as a pejorative. Be careful...you need folks to buy all those dogs that don't make it....those "meat dogs"...which are the vast majority of what you're producing.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:53 am

I have observed 100's of braces at Ames, and have ran two of my hunting dogs in the Ames Amateur, and I can tell you those that run in the NC are super dogs! They are just better in every measure I know; run harder, hunt harder, cooperate better, cover more objectives, have more strength, endurance, style, and class.

Head to head, on the same ground, in the same conditions, they are just better than any hunting dog I have ever seen.

Since we were using sport analogy, it is like comparing Lebron James to the star of the local playground. No contest.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by slistoe » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:45 am

sckwest1 wrote:Someone else quoted that they didn't have a dog of the caliber of the dogs running, are you sure? Have you ever ran with these so called "first class" dogs?
Have you? I would think it rather obvious you have not. Neither have I = but I have run against many dogs who did not quite make the grade to be in the National - great trial dogs that couldn't quite make it to the level of the dogs that just ran. I will state unequivocally that the best hunting dog I ever owned was better than virtually every dog I ever hunted her with and she did not hold a candle to the dogs I competed against. The top dogs are simply better in almost every way and it is the competition system that has been set up over the last century to evaluate and develop those dogs that has made them that way. You an poo-poo the dogs and the system all you want but you will still be running and breeding sub-par dogs on average.

PS - the best hunting dogs I ever hunted with were the best trial dogs I ever competed with.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Meller » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:57 am

In my opinion you can call it Luck and good fortune, if it happens once; but I've found it hard to have it happen twice. So I think it is a rightfully deserved win. This is the top honor, and took a top performance.
Congratulations Bo. :D

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:38 pm

hustonmc wrote:
Melvin4730 wrote:
The wind, location of the birds, temperature, moisture in the air at the time of the brace and movement of the birds at the time of the brace are all out of the hands of the dogs and their handlers. There is always a bit of luck involved with any type of trial, be it squirrel hunts, rabbit hunts, bird hunts, etc. There is no way around this, because all the dogs cant be run on the same ground at the same time. Thats just the nature of the game. The most fair trials ive been around are coon and squirrel hunts/trials where they are full elimination hunts...you win your brace/cast...you move on to the next round. It takes some of the luck out of it. But, bird dog trials arent run this way.
NSTRA Purina Endurance Championship. 128 dogs entered, beat your brace mate. 128,64,32,16,8,4,2,1
What about the first 64 eliminated. Sounds like that might have been bad luck they encountered. But overall I think you have a point.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by mask » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:02 pm

Neil, I don't know if you were there this year. The weather was a determining factor. The first few days the birds were kegged up in the brush and some dogs did go in after them. Some were lost and had to be located with the tracker and picked up even though they had birds which is the rule. The luck of the draw at ames, because of conditions, plays an important role for sure, however the best dog THAT DAY won.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:37 pm

mask wrote:Neil, I don't know if you were there this year. The weather was a determining factor. The first few days the birds were kegged up in the brush and some dogs did go in after them. Some were lost and had to be located with the tracker and picked up even though they had birds which is the rule. The luck of the draw at ames, because of conditions, plays an important role for sure, however the best dog THAT DAY won.
I was there for the first few days, in a two week trial luck of the draw is all important. Had Bo drawn eariler in the first week, most would have predicted a different outcome.

But they draw it out of a Bingo cage, it is fair.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:19 pm

Glad to hear that Neal, I probably would've culled your 2 dogs then if they weren't as good as hundreds of dogs that you seen run. Obviously I haven't run with a first class dog, you have no idea what I've run with. I have run with a multi time shooting dog champion, and AA champion that has defeated several dogs that were ran at Ames, along with a walking champion and have observed other walking dogs. Recently purchased a dog that ran on one of the top strings for yrs and is a brother to a couple champions and he wasn't half the dog of my top dogs. I would not trade my top dog for any of them!! I have culled hard and went thru a large amount of dogs to get him and purely lucked into him. I have seen some trial grounds that were run along plowed fields and all the dogs did was run the edges. A very very large % of the trial pics I see and yes AA and shooting dog etc show the dogs pointing along the beaten down horse path. They run harder Neal? How hard is it to run? They hunt harder? I think running is extremely easy for a dog. You may be in great shape and run miles everyday. Go get in a fight or wrestle someone for a few minutes and see how tired you are. I have heard of way to many trial dogs that were wash outs because they hunt to much. A dog that is hunting hard takes as much stamina as a dog that is running hard if not more. Wouldl've liked to seen some good meat dogs and maybe some cover dogs turned loose that first week and seen if they find birds. By no means do I use the terms gundog or meat dog in a derogatory way to clear that up. Once again these are my opinions. Also let me state that a dog only needs to satisfy the man that owns him to be a good dog. I think super dogs are very few and far between and Bo just may very well be one. The trial dogs are in trial homes with trial owners and good handlers, there have been a lot of other dogs that may have had the potential to shine and have in the hunting homes that they went to. To sum it up, I don't believe that trial dogs are superior. Again let me reiterate that these are simply my opinions which I am sharing to invoke conversation, not insults and arguments. Scott

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by JKP » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:40 pm

Don't want to get into the middle here but i was surprised after reading the brace reports that so few dogs really ended up contending (at least it appears that way) among these best of the best dogs. Was it weather, ground conditions or the difficulty of the course? Have there been more contenders in the past or is there usually a pretty obvious few?

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:52 pm

Swell....I hear that some believe this latest win makes him a 3-time champion .

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:20 pm

Well Scott my culls have over 80 wins and have had 100's of wild birds killed over them, so even though they are not competitive with those running in the National, they suit me.

I didn't say anything about what you might have seen in dogs, don't know and don't care.

I was sharing my unbiased first hand observations.

It would be easy enough to prove your assertions, just saddle up and show us. Otherwise it is just keystrokes.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by midwestfisherman » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:26 pm

An awesome accomplishment by ANY measure!! Congrats to Bo, his handler and owners!

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:43 pm

sckwest1 wrote:Glad to hear that Neal, I probably would've culled your 2 dogs then if they weren't as good as hundreds of dogs that you seen run. Obviously I haven't run with a first class dog, you have no idea what I've run with. I have run with a multi time shooting dog champion, and AA champion that has defeated several dogs that were ran at Ames, along with a walking champion and have observed other walking dogs. Recently purchased a dog that ran on one of the top strings for yrs and is a brother to a couple champions and he wasn't half the dog of my top dogs. I would not trade my top dog for any of them!! I have culled hard and went thru a large amount of dogs to get him and purely lucked into him. I have seen some trial grounds that were run along plowed fields and all the dogs did was run the edges. A very very large % of the trial pics I see and yes AA and shooting dog etc show the dogs pointing along the beaten down horse path. They run harder Neal? How hard is it to run? They hunt harder? I think running is extremely easy for a dog. You may be in great shape and run miles everyday. Go get in a fight or wrestle someone for a few minutes and see how tired you are. I have heard of way to many trial dogs that were wash outs because they hunt to much. A dog that is hunting hard takes as much stamina as a dog that is running hard if not more. Wouldl've liked to seen some good meat dogs and maybe some cover dogs turned loose that first week and seen if they find birds. By no means do I use the terms gundog or meat dog in a derogatory way to clear that up. Once again these are my opinions. Also let me state that a dog only needs to satisfy the man that owns him to be a good dog. I think super dogs are very few and far between and Bo just may very well be one. The trial dogs are in trial homes with trial owners and good handlers, there have been a lot of other dogs that may have had the potential to shine and have in the hunting homes that they went to. To sum it up, I don't believe that trial dogs are superior. Again let me reiterate that these are simply my opinions which I am sharing to invoke conversation, not insults and arguments. Scott
So then it would be easy for you to win some of the big trials then?

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:44 pm

Do not ride horses and have no desire to. I wasn't trying to insult your dogs as mentioned if you are happy with them that is all that matters. You stated you have seen hundreds of braces at the national, so that could be anywhere between 200-1800 dogs. If i was a trialer and my dogs were not as good as any of them, then i would consider my dogs subpar.
Last edited by sckwest1 on Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Neil » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:29 pm

sckwest1 wrote:Font ride horses and have no desire to. I wasn't trying to insult your dogs as mentioned if you are happy with them thst is all that matters. You stated you have seen hundreds of braces at the national, so that could be anuwhere between 200-1800 dogs. If i was a trialer and my dogs were not as good as any of them, then i would consider my dogs subpar,
Keystrokes

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:39 pm

Opinions read the message!

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by slistoe » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:52 am

sckwest1 wrote:Font ride horses and have no desire to. I wasn't trying to insult your dogs as mentioned if you are happy with them thst is all that matters. You stated you have seen hundreds of braces at the national, so that could be anuwhere between 200-1800 dogs. If i was a trialer and my dogs were not as good as any of them, then i would consider my dogs subpar,
I am sure you will be able to find someone to front a little cash for a pro - who wouldn't want to get in cheap on the next Nat. Ch.
As for the insults, yeah, it wasn't personal to Neil, you were just insulting every dog that ever ran in a trial.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:10 am

Was the insult saying they're not super dogs and that they aren't a hundred times better than everyone elses dogs? Not exactly my idea of an insult. Have u seen the statistics of birds found at this years trial on a well groomed giant preserve? I think you could have took good hunting dogs with as much drive and determination and found more birds. I do not care how you ran if you do not produce birds! That is what defines a bird dog and why the word bird is in front of their name. They cannot run with a greyhound and if that is what it is all about give me a greyhound, would not bring a shephard to a dog fight LOL, now that was an insult.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by Elkhunter » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:46 am

sckwest1 wrote:Was the insult saying they're not super dogs and that they aren't a hundred times better than everyone elses dogs? Not exactly my idea of an insult. Have u seen the statistics of birds found at this years trial on a well groomed giant preserve? I think you could have took good hunting dogs with as much drive and determination and found more birds. I do not care how you ran if you do not produce birds! That is what defines a bird dog and why the word bird is in front of their name. They cannot run with a greyhound and if that is what it is all about give me a greyhound, would not bring a shephard to a dog fight LOL, now that was an insult.
Have you ever ran a dog in a CH? Have you ever even attended a CH?

Also if your burning through dozens of dogs trying to find a "good one" I would rethink your methods. Great dogs are developed, not born. Breeding plays a big role, but without hard work and exposure/training no dog will ever be "great". JMO
Last edited by Elkhunter on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by slistoe » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:03 am

sckwest1 wrote: I think you could have took good hunting dogs with as much drive and determination and found more birds.
These are the key words. You don't know anything about it.

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Re: BO REPEATS

Post by sckwest1 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:02 pm

Elk Hunter make up your mind or you want your cake and eat it too? Great dogs are developed, not born. Breeding plays a big role, but without hard work and exposure/training no dog will ever be "great". JMO? So is it breeding or training, oh wait it's both. To straighten out your statement one must come before the other, so they must be born first is a fact! Breeding plays a major role! We have cleared that up correct? So if breeding is very important then it would be possible for us to start off with dogs as good correct? That would be according to you. I however believe that they are not created equal even if they share the same DNA some are better than others in every litter, so yes I have gone thru some dogs to find the ones I want to keep, it's called the culling process and all the big time trial folks-breeders do it. Hard to include the top handlers as they are paid, but even they select which dogs they want on their string. Exposure means a ton, sure wish I lived somewhere that had more wild birds. Development, I think many people are capable of developing good dogs.
Slistoe as for your comment "I don't know anything about it". To some extent you are totally correct. I don't know a ton about trialing. I do know that I have ran on numerous occasions with a dog that has won over the top dogs in the country on multiple occasions and that dog is no better than my top dogs. I have also had a dog that was brought up by a top trial person as a high prospect and then spent a couple years on one of the top strings in the nation. That dog was not as good as my dogs and was broke no better than my dogs. I will not get into a name dropping fiasco so don't even ask me to drop names!!! Now to clear things up, I am not saying that I am superior or that my dogs are superior, it is however my strong belief that mine, yours, and a ton of other guys on this board dogs are not as inferior as you want to believe. Nothing about my posts have meant to be insulting to anyone, I am simply trying to give my opinion that there are a lot of good gundogs out there. By the way this is the gundog forum not the field trialer where I would not have this discussion because the genre there is and should be only field trialing. Best of luck to you all, Scott

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