New bread: American field pointer?

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:41 am

Just putting it out there, but do you think that the American EP field dog is so far removed from the conformation standard that it should be a stand alone bread ?after all ,when was the last duel champion? Where is in Europe and Australia Duel Champions are not that uncommon
No disrespect but the English Pointers I see from photos in this forum look nothing like the Pointers I see in other parts of the world and I'm talking about show and field

Cheers

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:48 am

This going to get. I'll get the popcorn:-)

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:51 am

Hattrick wrote:This going to get. I'll get the popcorn:-)

No need for popcorn, the recipes for bread will be fun to try at home.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:59 am

I like the all white variety myself - it makes better toast.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:05 am

Absolutely!!! Why not take pride in what has been created and signal clearly that a variation of the original breed has been made. You have English Foxhounds and American Foxhounds...and Harriers as well...and they are all regarded as separate breeds. Would seem pretty much the same to me. I'm sure the AKC would love to have another breed to boost show entries

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:07 am

I like pumpernickel, coffee in anything is good. Stand alone coffee is just fine too.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:37 am

I am not sure this is a popcorn event? Does American Field list conformation anywhere? The preponderance of pointer folk I know could not give a rat's fat elbow what the AKC has to say. What little fussing there is at those trials is reserved for arguing over field related performance and rules.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:44 am

So the improvements to the Pointer, as done in 'Murica, are wrong?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:45 am

Vision wrote:
Hattrick wrote:This going to get. I'll get the popcorn:-)

No need for popcorn, the recipes for bread will be fun to try at home.

Lol spell check won't catch that.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:52 am

Soarer31 wrote:Just putting it out there, but do you think that the American EP field dog is so far removed from the conformation standard that it should be a stand alone bread ?after all ,when was the last duel champion? Where is in Europe and Australia Duel Champions are not that uncommon
No disrespect but the English Pointers I see from photos in this forum look nothing like the Pointers I see in other parts of the world and I'm talking about show and field

Cheers

The AF pointer is nowhere near as far removed from someone else's "ideal" of what a pointer should look like as the AF English setter is from the AKC version. We won't even get into the Red Setter versus the Irish.

As someone so correctly stated, the FDSB could not care less what the dog looks like. Color is irrelevant. Size is irrelevant. The shape of the nose and the set of the ears is irrelevant. WHAT it does and HOW it does what it does...is what is most important to the folks who gravitate toward FDSB dogs in general and pointers in particular.

The AF German Shorthaired Pointer is also very much a different animal than its AKC counterpart...not so much in the looks department, but most assuredly in the performance department. Again, performance...not outward appearance, is the driver.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some prefer to define that beauty in terms of physical appearance. Some prefer to define that beauty in terms of performance in the field. Some want both, in varying proportions.

They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but as with anything, if you focus on and emphasize one aspect of a thing and someone else focuses on and emphasizes a different aspect of the same thing... well lets just say: "Results may vary."

RayG

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:18 am

I have found the FDSB pointer breeders very much concerned about confirmation, they do not use the same language as the show crowd, but they tend to emphasize the same physical attributes. They know the dogs must have the physicality to compete. Dogs that are not "made up properly" can't win.

It might be informative to actually read the AKC pointer standard before "bleep" it, it does fit the FDSB dog. Now the interpretation of the standard has caused some divergence, but there is a reason the logo dog of Westminster is a pointer and that it is called a pointer, without modifier (there is no such thing as an English pointer in AKC or FDSB).

art hubbard · Post by **art hubbard** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:22 am

How about yellow eyed pointers? any problems with that?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:38 am

Neil, the bigger question. Who changed? The field bred Pointer? Or the show bred Pointer?

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:08 am

There is quite a difference in "type" between working British pointers and setters and setters and the show dogs. Some of the working dogs are considerably smaller and less heavy, have less feathering and in my opinion, have more brains ! They wouldn't have a hope in a show ring.

Dual champions ??? I think it has been a long, long time since there was a dual champion pointer here. The last two dogs to achieve dual champion status in Britain were, I think, both French type Brittanies. That happened during the last 4-5 years.

One kennels called "Crookrise" did for many years try to breed dual purpose pointers but I don't think they managed dual champions ... I could be wrong about that however. I trained a pointer bitch of Crookrise breeding about 10 years ago. She was fairly small for her breed and she hunted well and she liked retrieving but I did not run her in trials for she didn't often run out more than 80-100 yards from me. She did not do well in shows either .... she wasn't quite good enough for either trials or shows. She made a very nice little shooting dog but had no chance of becoming a Dual Champion.

This is her as a puppy.

Bill T.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:22 am

Wyndancer wrote:Neil, the bigger question. Who changed? The field bred Pointer? Or the show bred Pointer?

The show people changed their interpretation, the standard did not. As already said the show dogs tend to be at the upper range of size.

The pointer, Mary Montrose won the National Championship and was put on a train and took top honors for a female at Westminster.

The Brittany has well over 500 Dual Champions, including many National Champions.

It is not the dogs its the people.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:31 am

Neil wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:Neil, the bigger question. Who changed? The field bred Pointer? Or the show bred Pointer?
The show people changed their interpretation, the standard did not. As already said the show dogs tend to be at the upper range of size.

The pointer, Mary Montrose won the National Championship and was put on a train and took top honors for a female at Westminster.

The Brittany has well over 500 Dual Champions, including many National Champions.

It is not the dogs its the people.

Well, but carefully, stated. I'll not argue that some aspects of the pointing breeds haven't changed...field bred....since the 1900's, but all in all the Setters/Pointers are really remarkably the same as in 1900 and today.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:31 pm

slistoe wrote:I like the all white variety myself - it makes better toast.

Ezzy's going to yell at you for making fun of the guy's spelling.

I got the message the first time.

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:34 pm

Soarer31 wrote:?after all ,when was the last duel champion?

Heller's Fiddling Jack. Just recently
http://firestarterkennels.com/show.html

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:46 pm

Sharon wrote:
slistoe wrote:I like the all white variety myself - it makes better toast.
Ezzy's going to yell at you for making fun of the guy's spelling. I got the message the first time.

Sometimes I even fool myself. The white ones are much better at making all the other dogs toast.

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:15 pm

http://remingtons.tripod.com/ranger.htm

Here is a dual champion pointer that I saw run several times. I believe that he also has a MH title now in addition to the DC. He has two other DC's in his pedigree as well.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:28 pm

I hope they don't for the sake of genetics. I know you pointer men/women don't want to run to a show dog to sire a litter, and I know show people aren't breaking down your door to breed to your recent championship winners... But splitting the breeds would inhibit that ability like it was with Irish and Reds. The ending of the reciprocal was a disservice to my breed for the sake of genetic variety.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:20 pm

New bread

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:47 pm

Roanie, Roanie

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:20 pm

madmurph wrote:Roanie, Roanie

. Well, it's true. It's new.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:26 pm

They haven't been english pointers for 100 years......and as is evidenced by all the great pointers available.....we don't need no stinking show champions.

tell me about a breed that's been bettered by being involved in shows?

Boxers - nope
Labs- nope
dalmations- nope
bull dogs- NOWAY

and the list goes on.....

Soarer31 · Post by **Soarer31** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:41 am

Well your right about that......100 years.... just had a look at the Ames field trial hall of fame and in the early 1900"s they started off with English pointers and now you have??
So you basically you agree a new bread ? ( just keeping the theme going , breed)

Correct me if I'm wrong but its the show folk that keep all the breeds true to type , other wise you wouldn't be able to differentiate between a boxer , lab ,Dalmatian......

Cheers

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:59 am

It's majority show people who run the AKC Breed clubs. They define the breed standard and they and judges interpreted it at will. I can't get on board with saying show people have done a disservice to all breeds. I see a lot of money from the show people in my breed going towards health studies and health registries, and it isn't just show dog which are affected by these issues... The CHF is a darn good orgibization, and most breeds have their own health foundation/committees. Interpretation...if it weren't for show people, some of today's breeds would not exist.
And at the end of the day, I appreciate a setter who looks like a setter, and a Brittany who looks like a Brittany... Neither of which should look like a Setney. Same for GSPs and pointers... And all of our breeds. But majority don't have to look like today's show dog. I admire the Brit, Shorthair, WPG, etc breeds which still have that strong link between the two worlds.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:28 am

Kwikirish....you cannot deny the post by birddog1968. I don't think the thinking in the show world, of "bringing a breed to perfection" being so extreme in the non-sporting breeds is exclusive to them. Every AKC breed club, on the show side, thinks this way....bring the breed to perfection....in the eyes of the show fancy. Conversely, field people try to bring their chosen breed to perfection as well. But even without a written conformation standard, AF Pointers today still look like AF Pointers of over 100 years ago. Same with field English. Yet the same cannot be said of the show counterparts in those breeds....it just can't.

So I challenge you to look at how the Bulldog has changed through the influence of show breeds over the course of time. Look at the bites of today's Bulldogs...that wasn't done by field breeders, show breeders did that...it's undeniable.Nearly 73% of Bulldogs suffer from CHD...73%! Over 80% require a c-section to whelp, because their heads are too large to pass.....it wasn't field breeders that did that...the show fancy did it.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:49 am

I am distrusting of any who put winning above all...whether that is in the show ring, in FT or folks who put "scores" at the top of their priority list. Most are honest but enough aren't and that is troublesome....but its life. Show dogs that couldn't find a bird in a food bowl, FT dogs that are only identifiable by the breed name on the registration or high scoring test dogs that want to eat me through the wire crate are all examples where folks that put their ego above any concept of breed. I admire the Pointer crowd...they make no excuses....they are up front that performance is everything and looks second. Performance has dictated what these dogs look like,not a fanciful literary vision. However, it seems pretty clear that there is some creative breeding going on in other breeds....for the sake of winning..and among show dogs, too often no interest in anything beyond plucking, trimming, powdering and the Winnebago.

Hats off to the folks trying to put together a good complete package. Its not easy and there are disappointments along the way.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:56 am

All the hunting breeds, and there are many if you include all types of hunting, were originally designed for a certain purpose. I have to believe it was the show fanciers that changed direction pertaining to a specific breeds form and function. It is unfortunate that the field and show people didn't work together on pointers. Britneys are a different story though.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:35 am

1930's show CH

Show CH of today

The pointers don't seem as far apart thru the years and across registries but i just wonder about ability. Here's an interesting webpage.
http://englishriverwebsite.com/PointerHistory/Trivia/

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:54 am

birddog1968 wrote:1930's show CH

Show CH of today

The pointers don't seem as far apart thru the years and across registries but i just wonder about ability. Here's an interesting webpage.
http://englishriverwebsite.com/PointerHistory/Trivia/

Is that one in the bottom photo a Cornwall Black boar or a lab? No wonder obesity and hip dysplasia are rampant.

Nate

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:24 am

Tipping "the genetic Petri dish" has gone on for as long as there have been dogs. That's how we got dogs and all these breeds. Mankind seems to have a fascination with breeding/crossbreeding animals. I lack that gene myself, although I've been to the barn to cover a mare or two during my horse days. One of which was my registered Paint mare at the insistence of the registered Arabian stud's owner. :roll: Everybody needs a hobby, I suppose.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:51 am

JKP wrote:I am distrusting of any who put winning above all...whether that is in the show ring, in FT or folks who put "scores" at the top of their priority list.

I admire the Pointer crowd...they make no excuses....they are up front that performance is everything and looks second. Performance has dictated what these dogs look like,not a fanciful literary vision.

I guess I'm confused by these two statements.
Do you admire them but just don't trust them? Performance is everything because they want to have a competitive dog. Time might have dictated this but it is what it is we all want the best dog.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:21 am

Quailcommando wrote:
JKP wrote:I am distrusting of any who put winning above all...whether that is in the show ring, in FT or folks who put "scores" at the top of their priority list.

I admire the Pointer crowd...they make no excuses....they are up front that performance is everything and looks second. Performance has dictated what these dogs look like,not a fanciful literary vision.
I guess I'm confused by these two statements.
Do you admire them but just don't trust them? Performance is everything because they want to have a competitive dog. Time might have dictated this but it is what it is we all want the best dog.

Quailcommando -

Perhaps you are confused because you are interjecting something of your own personal biases into what was actually stated.

Pointer folks have been breeding for field performance in this country since the breed came here. Looks were secondary. Conformation was only considered as it impacted on performance. American Field and FDSB pointer folks still breed this way. And it shows, both in the field for hunters and in the field for trialers. When someone wants a pointer for hunting, do they go to show breeding or field trial breeding?? You know the answer. So does everyone.

This all has nothing to do with winning or losing at field trials. It has to do with performance in the field. The fact that those dogs whose field abilities exceed the norm tend to be successful at AF field trials is a result of breeding for performance, not the other way 'round.

The dog with the best skill set in the field will often be the dog that is competitive. Of those dogs with the best skill sets...one(and only one) will win.

No one comes to a field trial to lose. However, everyone knows, going in, there can be only one winner. That does not mean that everyone who comes is a dirty scoundrel who will do whatever is necessary to win, as is the case in Washington, and politics and business in general. It means everyone who comes will be as prepared as they can be and do the very best job they can of showcasing their dog.

RayG

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:38 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:
JKP wrote:I am distrusting of any who put winning above all...whether that is in the show ring, in FT or folks who put "scores" at the top of their priority list.

I admire the Pointer crowd...they make no excuses....they are up front that performance is everything and looks second. Performance has dictated what these dogs look like,not a fanciful literary vision.
I guess I'm confused by these two statements.
Do you admire them but just don't trust them? Performance is everything because they want to have a competitive dog. Time might have dictated this but it is what it is we all want the best dog.
Quailcommando -

Perhaps you are confused because you are interjecting something of your own personal biases into what was actually stated.

Pointer folks have been breeding for field performance in this country since the breed came here. Looks were secondary. Conformation was only considered as it impacted on performance. American Field and FDSB pointer folks still breed this way. And it shows, both in the field for hunters and in the field for trialers. When someone wants a pointer for hunting, do they go to show breeding or field trial breeding?? You know the answer. So does everyone.

This all has nothing to do with winning or losing at field trials. It has to do with performance in the field. The fact that those dogs whose field abilities exceed the norm tend to be successful at AF field trials is a result of breeding for performance, not the other way 'round.

The dog with the best skill set in the field will often be the dog that is competitive. Of those dogs with the best skill sets...one(and only one) will win.

No one comes to a field trial to lose. However, everyone knows, going in, there can be only one winner. That does not mean that everyone who comes is a dirty scoundrel who will do whatever is necessary to win, as is the case in Washington, and politics and business in general. It means everyone who comes will be as prepared as they can be and do the very best job they can of showcasing their dog.

RayG

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, As for biased I'm not one sided on this I do believe some of it has to do with field work but also believe its more so for how it looks in front of a horse.And if you don't think wanting to win had nothing to do with the pointer of today I'm not the biased one.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:43 am

RayGubernat wrote: ... Conformation was only considered as it impacted on performance. ...

RayG

As it should be. Form follows function.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:06 am

I wonder if any of the top level sled dog teams run purebreds? Or, as I think, they are concerned about one thing...performance, get the sled to the finish before anybody else. But I guess the flip side is...they aren't restrained by a registry either.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:22 am

I would have to say that our memories are so short. Historically the field pointer and the show pointer were one and the same. The modern show pointer has moved somewhat away from the original, but the American bred field pointer has physically been altered way more than the show pointer. If we look globally the present day version of the American Field Pointer is the odd man out with the International field bred pointer.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:24 am

Photos of NFC Pointers

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:34 am

Quailcommando wrote:RayG

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, As for biased I'm not one sided on this I do believe some of it has to do with field work but also believe its more so for how it looks in front of a horse.And if you don't think wanting to win had nothing to do with the pointer of today I'm not the biased one.[/quote]

Nothing to disagree with from where I sit.

If a dog looks good in front of a horse, it is almost always true that when you dial it down a notch, that same dog...or most of it's offspring are gonna look pretty good in front of a walking hunter.
Very few folks foot hunt behind a true all age pointer...but some can and do. A whole lot of folks foot hunt behind competitive horseback shooting dogs. Even more folks foot hunt behind walking shooting dogs and cover dogs. Why?? Because they can.

I said plainly..."No one comes to a field trial to lose." Everyone does their best to showcase their dog. I said plainly..."No one comes to a field trial to lose." Everyone does their best to showcase their dog.

BUT field trials are not really about winning. Very few dogs and very few handlers do any amount of winning. As I said, at a field trial there is only one winner. All the rest are losers. The second place dog is a loser. If it were truly all about winning, field trialing would have died out long ago.

Field trials are really about finding and rewarding the best dog that day, at that venue.

Why else would someone do their very best to show off their dog, and in the very next brace, do everything they can to help a competitor show of THEIR dog? If winning were the only thing... that sort of sportsmanship would not happen. In fact it happens all the time in amateur competition... and is the norm, not the exception.

WHY?? Because most of the amateurs that play the game are looking for the best dog, even if it happens to be someone else's dog that day.

RayG

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:06 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Quailcommando wrote:RayG
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, As for biased I'm not one sided on this I do believe some of it has to do with field work but also believe its more so for how it looks in front of a horse.And if you don't think wanting to win had nothing to do with the pointer of today I'm not the biased one.

Nothing to disagree with from where I sit.

If a dog looks good in front of a horse, it is almost always true that when you dial it down a notch, that same dog...or most of it's offspring are gonna look pretty good in front of a walking hunter.
Very few folks foot hunt behind a true all age pointer...but some can and do. A whole lot of folks foot hunt behind competitive horseback shooting dogs. Even more folks foot hunt behind walking shooting dogs and cover dogs. Why?? Because they can.
RayG[/quote]

And in this you are plainly saying you dial down a trial dog to hunt , Not push a hunting bred dog for range to trial.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:32 pm

I think your definition of breeding "performance" in the field and mine are different that's why I agree to disagree with you.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:49 pm

Quailcommando wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
Quailcommando wrote: I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, As for biased I'm not one sided on this I do believe some of it has to do with field work but also believe its more so for how it looks in front of a horse.And if you don't think wanting to win had nothing to do with the pointer of today I'm not the biased one.

Nothing to disagree with from where I sit.

If a dog looks good in front of a horse, it is almost always true that when you dial it down a notch, that same dog...or most of it's offspring are gonna look pretty good in front of a walking hunter.
Very few folks foot hunt behind a true all age pointer...but some can and do. A whole lot of folks foot hunt behind competitive horseback shooting dogs. Even more folks foot hunt behind walking shooting dogs and cover dogs. Why?? Because they can.
RayG

And in this you are plainly saying you dial down a trial dog to hunt , Not push a hunting bred dog for range to trial.

He would be saying that because it is pretty common knowledge that you can reign them in but you can't push them out. So there is not such thing as "push a hunting bred dog for range to trial."

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:53 pm

I believe that the mind of the show enthusiast and the mind of the FT enthusiast are alike. They share a common psychology...to win...that can be equally perverted. For some show folks (notice i said some!!), the priority begins and ends with how the dog presents in the ring and the politics of being a top winning breed dog and sporting group dog. For some FT enthusiasts (I said some...notice!!!), the priority begins and ends with how the dog presents on the course,how many dogs beaten and the number of important venues won. Taken to their extremes, both the perfectly bred show dog and the dominant AA dog are a perversion of the breed and done for the sake of notoriety. Not 1% of Pointer enthusiasts are interested in the show ring and not 1% of enthusiasts really need a dog a mile away. In both cases, IMO...the breed is not the focus only self gratification.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:44 pm

Wyndancer wrote:I wonder if any of the top level sled dog teams run purebreds? Or, as I think, they are concerned about one thing...performance, get the sled to the finish before anybody else. But I guess the flip side is...they aren't restrained by a registry either.

I can answer this. The top level sled dog people run what's called the Alaskan Husky. We don't care what color it is, how long it's tail is, if it has blue, brown, or a mix of eyes. We don't care if it's ears stand up or hang down. We solely look for performance. A desire to pull, good feet, good coat and a voracious appetite. And yet the dog still has a look about it that says Alaskan Husky. The Alaskan husky is basically a mutt with a very long pedigree. It is also a dog with very few health issues. Now there are a few Siberian husky teams out there. There is a kennel of siberians that has been breeding dogs for over 60 years and breeding them for performance. While they can't outrun a good Alaskan Husky team, they are usually only a few minutes behind. They are athletic and pretty, but would probably be laughed out of the show ring. Now take your typical Siberian show dog. Fluffy coat, short legs, tail set too high and curled. Put them in a race with Alaskan Huskies and they will be 30 to 40 minutes behind in a short 6 mile race. As far as I can see akc show ring has done a great disservice to the breed. Now in Europe you were required to run purebred teams. Since the siberians were so slow they started running German Shorthairs in their races. In short races they are hard to beat and you can hunt them in the off season.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:44 pm

Slistoe In your attempt to make someone else look bad you proved my point.

Ray, I think this is our difference when I'm told a dogs breeding is for performance in the field I think of a easy handling hunting dog that hits all the cover along his way and so on. In MY opinion if all pointers had this breeding you would not have any shooting or all age as our resident professional pointed out to us above.I would not consider all age dog easy handling in the field in the sense that they are allot of dog to be handled by your average hunter to keep reeled in and handling in general .Like I said I think it goes both ways you have what I consider performance breed dogs for the field (hunting) and performance breed dogs for trial in mind (bigger running dogs) which most people breed with winning in mind.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:53 pm

Quailcommando wrote:Slistoe In your attempt to make someone else look bad you proved my point.

Ray, I think this is our difference when I'm told a dogs breeding is for performance in the field I think of a easy handling hunting dog that hits all the cover along his way and so on. In MY opinion if all pointers had this breeding you would not have any shooting or all age as our resident professional pointed out to us above.I would not consider all age dog easy handling in the field in the sense that they are allot of dog to be handled by your average hunter to keep reeled in and handling in general .Like I said I think it goes both ways you have what I consider performance breed dogs for the field (hunting) and performance breed dogs for trial in mind (bigger running dogs) which most people breed with winning in mind.

Quailcommando -

If a dog handles kindly and goes with you when it is in front of you and in view that is commendable. If a dog handles kindly and goes with you when it is fading in and out of sight...is that not even MORE commendable?? Which is a harder thing for the dog? To handle and respond when the boss is fifty steps behind or when the boss is out of sight?

Think about it.

As for me, I suppose I am something of an anachronism anymore. I think I was about twenty five years old when I realized that most folks hereabouts wanted to see their dogs...ALL of the time. They often panicked when the dog went out of sight and I never really understood why.

I like a bold, independent dog. That is what I grew up hunting behind. Cut 'em loose and if they didn't come back around in about five minutes after they faded out of sight...go find them on point...because that is where they would be.

My uncle always said: "I need a dog to go to the places I can't. If I can walk there and find out if there is a bird...what am I feeding the dog for?" There was and is a lot of truth to that...for me. I don't need a dog to go to the places I can walk to. As far as "pushing them out", if they didn't cover ground and find birds., they didn't stay around long with him.

The thing with pointers is this...if the dog likes you, if it respects you, it will want to hunt with you and for you. I buy the boldest, most independent pups I can find. Always have. Then I do everything I can to make that little lunatic think the sun rises and sets on me and that I KNOW where the birds are.

If a pointer likes you and respects you, it will come back for you...no matter how far it has gone. You will not lose the dog because the dog WILL NOT LOSE YOU. On the other hand, if a pointer does not like you and does not respect you...you will not keep that dog no matter what, e-collar or not. It will find a way to get away from you because it does not want to be with you and does not want to hunt for you.

I have had hunting dogs out of some of the baddest field trial dogs ever born. Dogs like Saladin, Bonafide, Guard Rail, Warhoop Jake, Redemption's Reward were and are in some of my bird dog's pedigrees pretty close up. I ain't lost one yet(in over fifty years) and yes...they all hunted to the gun...my gun. Oh and I hunted, for the most part, on crowded state managed and state stocked areas and more recently on commercial preserves. My forays for wild birds were infrequent in the past and in the last ten years or so, there have been none.

I gave my son a dog that I had brd, rasied and trained myself. He had been run in everything from one hour AF Walking Shooting dog stakes, to horseback Shooting Dog stakes and even a few one hour All Age stakes. He was run in AKC All Age and Gun Dog stakes as well. He did his share of winning. He "dialed down" fairly nicely to become a family pet and a hunting dog.

He might have been a lot of dog for some folks, but my son grew up with this kind of dog and knows how to work with it. That can make all the difference.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

RayG

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:16 pm

An example.... i have a snowatch daughter, she will run 500 yds + in front of a horse and I've not developed her to do that. Today she hunted inside 100 yrds on phez, then she stood as a retriever for a driven phez hunt at a preserve a friend asked me to help with, retrieving dozens of birds as essentially a retriever. She's not been FF. Same HBAA bred pointer working in very different ways. Development period.

I think the biggest difference between FDSB HBAA Pointer and and AKC bench or dual dog is what's between their ears. The mental makeup that allows them to be so versatile.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:05 pm

Quailcommando wrote:Slistoe In your attempt to make someone else look bad you proved my point.

Ray, I think this is our difference when I'm told a dogs breeding is for performance in the field I think of a easy handling hunting dog that hits all the cover along his way and so on. In MY opinion if all pointers had this breeding you would not have any shooting or all age as our resident professional pointed out to us above.I would not consider all age dog easy handling in the field in the sense that they are allot of dog to be handled by your average hunter to keep reeled in and handling in general .Like I said I think it goes both ways you have what I consider performance breed dogs for the field (hunting) and performance breed dogs for trial in mind (bigger running dogs) which most people breed with winning in mind.

Never tried to make anyone look bad - just pointed out the obvious that you had missed.

I don't know what point it is you thought you were making, because for sure you didn't want to say that the epitome of hunting pointing dog breeding is a dog that won't range out when necessary, did you?

Dogs that handle kindly - that is sure enough what I want. Let them go as precocious adolescents and see which ones will handle kindly - no commands required because the dog doesn't even know any yet. 500 yards out, going to the front, and I change where the front is - does the dog respond? That is the dog that handles kindly. I can teach anything to handle, even a mongrel that doesn't get 50 yards away from me, but the ones you don't need to teach are the ones to keep for hunting dog stock.

About the 500 yards - if the precocious young dog that hasn't learned anything much yet won't go there, then it really isn't something I would call an ideal hunting dog prospect.