trial hunting ranges

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by DGFavor » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:15 pm

Just heard about a field trial for pointers and setters held in the north of Scotland up in what we call "The Floe Country." This is a colossal and mainly flat moor of poor quality heather which means the grouse on it are few and are very widely dispersed. It is just about the only trial ground in Britain where the dogs can really run out to long distances as they need to do in order to find birds there.
Cool stuff! Sounds exactly like what we do here in the western US. We have lots of open space and quite often a lot of open space between birds...the prototypical few and far between scenario!! :lol: Doesn't seem to matter where you put 'em down, the dogs'll do what they gotta do to find birds. :wink:
When a dog dog does point a bird that far away, and I have seen it several times on wild birds, they indeed do hold the birds.
Yah, dogs will pick 'em up and point from a huuuge distance sometimes for sure...when and where they decide to lock up on that scent varies dog to dog. About the only way they can do it wrong is to put the bird in the air. Point 'em or knock 'em...that's their options.

As far as birds not holding for dogs locating and pointing them at long distances from handlers...like Matt says, total BS. I've certainly had dogs point at ridiculous ranges thru the years, taken me as long as 30" to get to points and not uncommonly 5-10". I've had every possible outcome in those deals - birds "perfectly" located, birds that took a relocation or two to find, and some NP's thru the years...interestingly that's pretty much the same outcomes I get when I see the dog go on point. :lol: I can give a gazillion examples of some loooong distance (from handler) finds, even have a few on videos that I've posted here and there of me huffin' and puffin' to get to 'em. One of my favorite of all time was 'ol Stitch one time rolled out of a little valley to a nice long ridge above me. I got a point signal on the Tracker and headed after him. I was horseback in biiig CRP country - could see forever when I gained the ridge...just could not see the dog. I tracked...and I tracked...and I tracked to the point I got to an area where I started goin' in circles...swirling in on where the signal was coming from...but no dog. Walking along I just happened to glance down and there was Stitchy all sprawled out - hind legs sticking backward, one front leg out sideways and the other up underneath him, head out straight flat with his lip all curled up...big skid mark thru the grass. Almost stepped on him. Thought he might be injured and just as I stepped off the horse a covey of about a dozen huns got up, I swear, no more than 2 ft. off his nose. Probably 20 minutes they all stared at each other till I got there. :lol: :lol:

It is very common when a dog goes on point at extreme distances, to "hear" them relocate on the Tracker (or "see" 'em moving on the Garmin)...point signal...moving signal...point signal...moving signal...birds move...dog moves...bird moves...dog moves. Kinda like what I see happen sometimes when the dog goes on point right in front of me. :wink: Seems to me birds behave about the same close or far...freakin' birds - not readin' the GDF rulebook!! :lol:
Last edited by DGFavor on Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by birddog1968 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:18 pm

Anyone can handle a AA PUP, they become what you make them plain and simple. I hunt out west with them, guide on a preserve with them play bdc and nstra with them....same dog will do it all, I've even run them in open AA even tho I'm really not a trialer.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Neil » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:35 pm

I really do not have the energy to enter this debate, that and my general indifference.

I have hunted most parts of the US, and I have never been where there were not objectives, there are always places that are more likely to hold birds. The dog's job is to find those I would not walk up without him.

I just hope you all enjoy your dogs as much as I have mine.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by SCT » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:39 pm

Good post Doc. And, it really doesn't matter how far our dogs can smell. What matters is the hot scent the wind puts in front of them. While in ID last week I had two dogs get birdy and they both followed the scent, with skill, to birds 450 yards away, two separate occasions in two days. The wind was moving at 15-20mph but they went right to those grouse. I've seen it many times.

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Re:

Post by Grousehunter123 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:11 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Anyone can handle a AA PUP, they become what you make them plain and simple. I hunt out west with them, guide on a preserve with them play bdc and nstra with them....same dog will do it all, I've even run them in open AA even tho I'm really not a trialer.

Boy, it's opinions like that which if believed and put into practice can really be detrimental to a hunter.

You said, "Anyone can handle a AA PUP, they become what you make them plain and simple". Sorry to burst your bubble....Not everyone can. It ain't plain and it ain't simple.

It's difficult for me to read a comment like this knowing that there is a wide variation of dog handlers reading this, and hold my tongue.

You make it sound so simple.

No, not ANYONE can handle an AA pup. They do NOT become what you make them. They generally become what their DNA dictates they will be. An EXPERIENCED hand does have an influence on molding it one way or another, but it's is NOT as simple as you make it out to be and is very misleading to the newer, less experienced hunter.

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Post by birddog1968 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:20 pm

Explain how this can be detrimental to a hunter??? First thing u do is teach a very young pup birds are found in conjunction with u not in spite of you. ...and that's 8/10ths of it right there.....I think its a shame people make a line of dogs into some voodoo that they aren't. Fact u don't think a dog becomes what u make it has me questioning your knowledge of dogs period. The certainly do become what you make/ develop them as.

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Re:

Post by Grousehunter123 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:45 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Explain how this can be detrimental to a hunter??? First thing u do is teach a very young pup birds are found in conjunction with u not in spite of you. ...and that's 8/10ths of it right there.....I think its a shame people make a line of dogs into some voodoo that they aren't. Fact u don't think a dog becomes what u make it has me questioning your knowledge of dogs period. The certainly do become what you make/ develop them as.
I thought I already explained it, but I'll expand on it.

You obviously have tons of experience and you are assuming everyone else reading this thread does too. I'd venture to guess in a Forum titled Gun Dog there are more hunters than trailers of TRUE AA dogs reading the content. This includes young folks, newbies, retriever folks contemplating their first pointing dog, etc...

To make the statement that anyone can handle an AA pup is in my opinion very bad advice given the variety of folks potentially reading this thread. I have close to 40 years of pointers/Setters under my belt and am familiar with TRUE AA bred dogs having grown up around them. With that said, there is no way on God's green earth I would take an AA bred pup up here in Northern Michigan and make a grouse and woodcock dog out of it. There is no up side to it for me and I am experienced. I'd hate to have an inexperienced guy try it.

I never made some kind of voodoo out of AA dogs. I have nothing against them at all.

If it's so easy to take a dog and "make out of what you want" is so easy, then why not look at the flip side of the coin? I guess you would recommend "ANYBODY" can take an Old Hemlock / Ryman type grouse dog and make a horseback AA type quail dog out of it? You see where your generalities break down?

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Post by birddog1968 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:00 pm

Can't put in what ain't there....but you can harness what is. Most of what is an AA dog is, is between the ears. And they are probably easier to train than ryman type dogs, who are notoriously soft. Have you seen whats in some of todays grouse Champions?

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Re:

Post by Grousehunter123 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:35 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Can't put in what ain't there....but you can harness what is. Most of what is an AA dog is, is between the ears. And they are probably easier to train than ryman type dogs, who are notoriously soft. Have you seen whats in some of todays grouse Champions?
Are you guessing or do you know by experience? I have trained both.

Yes I have seen what's in today's grouse champions. In fact I'm looking down at my feet at two "get" from among the very best multiple grouse and woodcock champions of today. I really don't know what your point is.

I'll end my participation in this thread with a repeat....no, not "EVERYBODY" should assume its "plain and simple" to make an AA pup into "anything you want".

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:45 pm

Worked with half a dozen Ryman type dogs last spring, what a PIA that was. IMHO its much easier working with HB bred dogs, you don't have to walk on eggshells, they are naturals.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by JKP » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:34 am

I'll end my participation in this thread with a repeat....no, not "EVERYBODY" should assume its "plain and simple" to make an AA pup into "anything you want".
While this is true, you won't find anyone here who will admit it. IMO...there is a lack of honesty, balanced discussion whenever this subject comes up. There are constant references to the fabulous dogs
and no frank talk about the side effects of pushing the envelope. You never hear about a ripper or a renegade...other breeds have that problem. Its as if you are constantly being sold something. After a while trust is the issue, not the dogs. I think it is a by product of competition....you focus on the winning car...the crashes or wrecks in the garage are unimportant.

I have trained or worked with many breeds and one thing I am sure of....none of them has a lock on perfection, all have disappointments..some folks can even talk about them. :lol:

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by RoostersMom » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:58 am

ezzy333 wrote:I can't say how far a dog can smell and I doubt if any of you can either. I have had dogs point and when I get there the birds may be 100 yds away but it didn't appear they were when the dog pointed. But we will never know. I have seen studies done that says 75 yds is about max for a dog but there are so many variable we probably will never know.

Ezzy
Every study I've seen (or participated in) have figures much closer to 50%. Radio telemetry studies on wild quail in Missouri and Georgia show that dogs miss about 50% of the birds that are available in the area for them to point.

Shocked me - and I was a radio-telemetry person on the Missouri study.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by shags » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:07 am

If you'd stop with the derision and defensiveness you would understand that nobody said that all age dogs are perfect in every way. Didn't you notice a while back when someone mentioned making a dog? Making a dog means training the ripper out, and taming the youthful renegade all while retaining the qualities that are valued in a true AA. If you had a clue about what an all age dog is, you would know this.

Dogs are dogs, and they do crazy dog stuff. A 25 yard dog can rip as well as a 900 yard dog; a 25 yard dog can refuse a command as well as a dog that is hitting the horizon. AA dogs do not own the market on occasional mishaps and lapses, and any honest trainer would know and admit that. Frankness and honesty are not necessarily snubbed out by competitiveness; they can be snubbed out by a refusal to see and appreciate qualities in dogs that vary from our own ideals.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Wagonmaster » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:31 am

I have seen exactly one, one hundred yard (or possibly better) point out of gazillions. It happened under perfect scenting conditions, short grass prairie, early in the morning, moisture in the air, just a slight breeze. It is also possible those birds ran before they flushed, but I doubt it, they were in a popple stand. Sharptail, in front of the German wirehair who really, really knew birds, in the Douglas County Management Area, Spooner, WI, about 40 years ago. It can certainly happen, but is not frequent. That was not an AA dog, but he sure was a bird dog and he was my friend.

That does not mean that dogs do not "make game" at those ranges, but when they are making game who knows what the range is, it could be scent on the ground from a running bird, or air scent from a distance. All we know, is that the dog has game but it is not pinned.

In my experience points beyond 25 yards are not common. Even 25 yards is not common. It is more common that when you find a bird 25 yards or more out in front of a dog, it has moved. A smart handler knows his dog, and knows when to go out in front and flush back towards the dog to stop those runners.

We do not know what the dog scents.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by bonasa » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:29 am

JKP wrote:
You never hear about a ripper or renegade lol:
I do all the time, called bumping and chasing. To the latter , gaining independence. Later the dog is either broke or its not. With a proven training program all those variables are worked out. Recall and staying to be front take care of your renegade. Steady to wing and shot in addition to stopping on first scent take care of the ripping. Anything less is unacceptable.

What happens to all these boot licking dogs that rip birds, chewing birds and running off with them and bottom out an hour into the hunt? What I see is many people shooting the birds, fighting the dog and gawking at another's well trained dog asking " how did you get them to do that"?

Any neophyte knows that a pointing dog that is a renegade or rips birds is useless. Train the dog to do what you find acceptable.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by slistoe » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:37 am

Long range points? Whats the point?
I'll say that I cannot recall ever walking up to a dog that had birds pointed from anything close to 100 yards. I have, however, witnessed dogs getting scent of birds from that distance and maybe even further. That whiff told the dog there were birds in the vicinity and he better hunt them down to get a positive location and fix them with a point. IMO this "first scent" fallacy is just that - a fallacy. The more folks artificially interject such rules between the dog and the bird the more they will be walking to fruitless points.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by DonF » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:52 am

slistoe wrote:Long range points? Whats the point?
I'll say that I cannot recall ever walking up to a dog that had birds pointed from anything close to 100 yards. I have, however, witnessed dogs getting scent of birds from that distance and maybe even further. That whiff told the dog there were birds in the vicinity and he better hunt them down to get a positive location and fix them with a point. IMO this "first scent" fallacy is just that - a fallacy. The more folks artificially interject such rules between the dog and the bird the more they will be walking to fruitless points.
That I can agree with!

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Elkhunter » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:17 am

Wagonmaster wrote:I have seen exactly one, one hundred yard (or possibly better) point out of gazillions. It happened under perfect scenting conditions, short grass prairie, early in the morning, moisture in the air, just a slight breeze. It is also possible those birds ran before they flushed, but I doubt it, they were in a popple stand. Sharptail, in front of the German wirehair who really, really knew birds, in the Douglas County Management Area, Spooner, WI, about 40 years ago. It can certainly happen, but is not frequent. That was not an AA dog, but he sure was a bird dog and he was my friend.

That does not mean that dogs do not "make game" at those ranges, but when they are making game who knows what the range is, it could be scent on the ground from a running bird, or air scent from a distance. All we know, is that the dog has game but it is not pinned.

In my experience points beyond 25 yards are not common. Even 25 yards is not common. It is more common that when you find a bird 25 yards or more out in front of a dog, it has moved. A smart handler knows his dog, and knows when to go out in front and flush back towards the dog to stop those runners.

We do not know what the dog scents.
I hunt mainly chukars, and the large majority of my dogs finds are beyond 25 yards.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:20 am

When I was 16 I fell victim to the All-Age hype, paid $35.00 for a trial reject that was often lost. When I picked her up Walter Jhonson included a truck snow chain, saying "This ought to keep her close enough to kill a few birds". It didn't.

Even at 16 I figured out that we needed a better relationship, so despite Mom's objections, I snuck her into my bedroom and in the field I would call her back before she got further than 50 - 60 yards for a treat. She would stiill take a stroll now and then, leaviing me to hunt alone. But we did learn to adaptt to one another.

So if a backwoods Ozark boy could learn to train a renegade adult All-Age dog to foot hunt, I got to believe most that come here could, too.

It was not easy, but was pretty siimple, or I could not have done it.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:48 am

So let me get this straight: you'd have us believe a 16 year "backwoods Ozarks Boy" with dog treats in his pockets was able to produce an on again-off again "foot hunting dog" with a "renegade adult field trial reject AA" dog, which a professional trialer, could not? LMAO!! I get it...it's so easy even a caveman (or teenager) can do it!! :D :D

To the new and inexperienced readers: BUYER BEWARE. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE ASSUMING A TRUE AA BRED DOG IS RIGHT FOR YOU AND YOUR PARTICULAR SITUATION. IT MIGHT BE, AND IT MIGHT NOT BE. DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON MESSAGE FORUMS.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:08 am

I like these range threads. You always get the people who have never seen a dog handle at range telling everyone else that it is impossible or impractical to have a 1000yd dog. Maybe. In southern Indiana there is little need for me to have a dog that runs much more than 5-600yds. but then again I wouldn't kill very many quail if I hunted over dogs that were at 100yds.

The comment that "You never hear about a ripper or a renegade...other breeds have that problem" Is rediculouse. You constantly hear about these AA dogs going to sumercamp and being pushed around and letting the dogs chase till they figure it out. You also hear constant stories about washouts. The fact is (I believe Wagonmaster if not im sorry)made the comment that it takes 4-5years to MAKE one of these type of dogs. While the run is there, and the potential is there you still have polish and train them to do the job.

If you dont want a big running dog then dont buy one, but dont tell a guy that like a big running dog the only reason to own it is for "Amusement" Im pretty sure WE ALL own these dogs for ammusement. I guarantee if I was hunting for the sake of NEED i wouldnt be feeding a dog to do it, and I sure as heck wouldnt be shooting birds.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:27 am

JKP you have a lot of nerve talking about honesty when you posted on this forum that you did not send me a PM stating you don't like ONE WINNER takes all venues because they are about the people & not the dogs.

Then you post how testing is the same as competition in another thread but above you again bring up competition as the reason for F Trials ruining F Trial dogs.

If Competition & testing are the same as you claim how is one about the people & the other about the dogs??

Your talking out both sides of your mouth!

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by mask » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:58 am

If anyone is laughing about this thread it is Trekmoor. Either that or he's wondering why these crazy yanks are making such a fuss. As far as not believing everything you read here, well I know right were to start. Here is a fact, no matter a dogs range they still have to have a handle on them. If you think the dogs that qualify for the NC at Ames are just run offs that happen to have a good day and win you are delusional. The pressure that those dogs endure and the ability to handle it is one of the many things that set them apart. Most of these AA bred pointers go to hunting homes and like all hunting dogs they require a bit of training. I'll try this again. It depends on what and where you hunt.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:05 pm

Of course there are blackhearted dogs in any breed, who ever denied that? But there are also dogs that for whatever reason don't make the cut and can be turned into fine hunting dogs. I had one on a prairie trip few years back could of seemingly cared less about the handler and ran like the wind, paying no mind of anything. I took that dog and sat on the porch of the cabin every night and in a week he was a different dog. and turned out to be my favorite on the trip. He needed to be invested in, made a buddy of.

Had another that thru unskilled and unthinking hands had been nearly ruined, he was a BIG runner and regularly ran off. I brought him home and made him part of the family for some months, and he soon was a different dog. He's now foot hunting grouse in Maine and i get emails from his new owner now and then and they love him.

There are exceptions to every rule and every breed as well as every line.....but for the most part dogs from AA parents can be made fine, even great foot hunting dogs, dogs with that little extra to make the hair stand on the back of your neck. And it can be as easy as treats, or buddying up, or dropping some pigeons for the youngin. In fact I think your chances of ending up with something special is greatly enhanced by choosing a pup from the top of dog trials.

Its funny cause i heard this same BS i hear here , just last weekend, from a fella with 3 DD's that couldn't find a pork chop, and more than just I , witnessed my runoffs :lol: finding birds from foot directly behind and over ground as the naysayers dogs just went over. I even hear it from a certian kennel owner and breeder of bootlicker type (setter) dogs. He has no answer when my dogs are brought into the conversation.

Very often its easier to make that big running dog serviceable because there is so much more there to work with. Make a few bad mistakes with a super soft Ryman dog see what happens. or get a good one and wait for that super slow maturity. Yup just about anyone can own and foot hunt a pup from AA lines, it takes some research and thoughtful application just like it would with a bootlicker pup or these great Euro dogs. :roll:

In the end to each his own, but don't have people thinking only the best pro's can handle the AA dog, its just not true.
Last edited by birddog1968 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:09 pm

mask wrote:If anyone is laughing about this thread it is Trekmoor.
Not on his own :) :)

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:17 pm

It's hard to understand what you haven't experienced...how long would you last with birds a mile a part and in a 1000 foot of elevation change? is the world small or just the mind?
Image
Image

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:48 pm

Chukar12 wrote:It's hard to understand what you haven't experienced...how long would you last with birds a mile a part and in a 1000 foot of elevation change? is the world small or just the mind?
Perhaps some don't see what is in front of their nose?
Image

Or appreciate what is further than their mind?
Image

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by polmaise » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:49 pm

Small world Indeed!

Image

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Vision » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:54 pm

Here is a video of what Chukar12 is describing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4MrLVwGUzI
Last edited by Vision on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:57 pm

Polmaise, Beautiful country, looks quite comfortable for a walk, and I suspect i would be drunk with the history and romance on a hunt there...

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:16 pm

And here is why I dispute that the AA bred dog is not necessarily the best choice for every situation as has been espoused on this thread.


Welcome to the first month of Ruffed Grouse and Woodcock hunting habitat.
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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Jakezilla » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:38 pm

A properly trained dog should adjust its range to the cover in order to maintain contact with its handler.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:54 pm

I do not believe pointing dogs, All-Age or otherwise, are right for all conditions. It is why I have flushing dogs, also. Flushing dogs for thick, tight cover where birds are bunched up, pointing dogs for open areas where birds are scarse.

And I did not explain that it was 1960 when I had to train a run-off, well before reliable, adjustable e-collars, now they are readily available and inexpensive it should allow most anyone to put a handle on a dog, any dog. Again it is not quick and easy, but pretty simple. Simplier than retrieving, backing, even pointing that we often teach here.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:17 pm

Jakezilla wrote:A properly trained dog should adjust its range to the cover in order to maintain contact with its handler.

I was properly trained not to drink too much single malt scotch or overeat but it doesn't always work. It is disingenuous to portray the ease with which "anyone" can take a true AA bred dog and "make anything out of it you want".

I've read everything on this thread from- all it takes to do it is dog treats to E collars.

If it's in its DNA....ITS GONNA MANIFEST ITSELF SOONER OR LATER. I don't care if you let the the pup live in your bedroom. Plant training birds every ten yards. Give it dog biscuits till it weighs 100 lbs. When that dog is out hunting wild birds and not finding them....HE IS GONNA DO WHAT HIS DNA DICTATES AND THAT MEANS DISTANCE AND RANGE. When he starts finding them at great distance, and he will....you have something you might not bargained for.

I have nothing against big running dogs. I've had them all my life. I now have grouse dogs that hit 350 yards per my Garmin unless I hit the tone on the E collar to bring them in. Growing up hunting in Oklahoma that would have been a boot licker. 350 yards in the grouse woods is considered very big running. In fact I usually will "tone" them back @ 200 yards.

The point of the discussion is not to degrade any dog. I just think some bad information is being spread and I want to give some balance to new and young guys trying to figure this out.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:23 pm

Neil wrote:I do not believe pointing dogs, All-Age or otherwise, are right for all conditions. It is why I have flushing dogs, also. Flushing dogs for thick, tight cover where birds are bunched up, pointing dogs for open areas where birds are scarse.

And I did not explain that it was 1960 when I had to train a run-off, well before reliable, adjustable e-collars, now they are readily available and inexpensive it should allow most anyone to put a handle on a dog, any dog. Again it is not quick and easy, but pretty simple. Simplier than retrieving, backing, even pointing that we often teach here.

Explain how you "put a handle on ANY dog" with an E collar. Take a hypothetical line bred Shadow Oak Bow prospect and turn him into a foot hunting grouse dog for a 50 year old man. I mean this sincerely. How would you do it? I'm open to learn.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Jakezilla » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:27 pm

LOL now I remember why I don't hang out here.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:44 pm

Grousehunter I like you guys that say one thing in a thread & then in the next you contradict what you just said.Like this how do you use an E-collar to put a handle on any dog but then say you Tone a 350 Yrd dog back to 200 yards in the grouse woods?? Here is another thing you don't say or understand,you can take 2 of the biggest running AA dogs in the country,breed them & not get a single AA dog from that breeding but end up with some dam nice hunting dogs.I will take all the AA breeding I can get & still end up with dogs I can train & hunt over & we are here to try an educate the newbies & young just as much as you are.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:55 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Grousehunter I like you guys that say one thing in a thread & then in the next you contradict what you just said.Like this how do you use an E-collar to put a handle on any dog but then say you Tone a 350 Yrd dog back to 200 yards in the grouse woods?? Here is another thing you don't say or understand,you can take 2 of the biggest running AA dogs in the country,breed them & not get a single AA dog from that breeding but end up with some dam nice hunting dogs.I will take all the AA breeding I can get & still end up with dogs I can train & hunt over & we are here to try an educate the newbies & young just as much as you are.
Try to keep up. It's not a contradiction. I'm taking exception to the comments that were made earlier in the thread. I'm NOT going to rehash it again. Re read the thread. My dogs are coverdog ch. Bloodlines. They ain't a drop of AA blood in them that I can see on paper.

You missed the point again on the HYPOTHETICAL example. A TRUE AA dog is not a common dog. Folks bandy it about like it is. Pick your own hypothetical AA dog. I'm looking to hear from Neil how he could take a TRUE AA pup and turn him into a foot hunting grouse dog for a 50 year old man to comfortably hunt with.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by birdogg42 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:07 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Grousehunter I like you guys that say one thing in a thread & then in the next you contradict what you just said.Like this how do you use an E-collar to put a handle on any dog but then say you Tone a 350 Yrd dog back to 200 yards in the grouse woods?? Here is another thing you don't say or understand,you can take 2 of the biggest running AA dogs in the country,breed them & not get a single AA dog from that breeding but end up with some dam nice hunting dogs.I will take all the AA breeding I can get & still end up with dogs I can train & hunt over & we are here to try an educate the newbies & young just as much as you are.
Try to keep up. It's not a contradiction. I'm taking exception to the comments that were made earlier in the thread. I'm NOT going to rehash it again. Re read the thread. My dogs are coverdog ch. Bloodlines. They ain't a drop of AA blood in them that I can see on paper.

You missed the point again on the HYPOTHETICAL example. A TRUE AA dog is not a common dog. Folks bandy it about like it is. Pick your own hypothetical AA dog. I'm looking to hear from Neil how he could take a TRUE AA pup and turn him into a foot hunting grouse dog for a 50 year old man to comfortably hunt with.
I think a pup has to become an adult dog before it becomes an AA dog. Your dead horse has decomposed and bugs and worms are eating it.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:20 pm

Grousehunter explained how simple it is to restrict the range of a dog. You collar condition the dog, get a reliable recall on him, and when he hits the end of your comfortable range, you reel him in. As he learns he will not have to be forced to come all the way back, less yoyoing and more application toward nearer objectives. Then you train a turn command and you steer him where you wish.

It does annoy some older dogs, but if trained from a wee pup most adapt.

Now what is hard and very complex is putting a pattern and control on a steady dog at extreme range while training it to find wild birds. That takes genetics in the dog and skill in the trainer.

I am not advocating All-Age dogs to all, but not due to difficulty in training, but the time few are willing to invest. Well, that and it is not a lot of fun.

And about the Bo pup for a foot hunter, I have seen Bo himself kept in a 1/4 acre bird field. Buddy Smith used to take Bo to seminars and work him off lead in a motel parking lot. People, cars, noise, airplanes, etc not even a distraction, but Buddy is a master trainer that spent the needed time in developing him.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:41 pm

Neil wrote:Grousehunter explained how simple it is to restrict the range of a dog. You collar condition the dog, get a reliable recall on him, and when he hits the end of your comfortable range, you reel him in. As he learns he will not have to be forced to come all the way back, less yoyoing and more application toward nearer objectives. Then you train a turn command and you steer him where you wish.

It does annoy some older dogs, but if trained from a wee pup most adapt.

Now what is hard and very complex is putting a pattern and control on a steady dog at extreme range while training it to find wild birds. That takes genetics in the dog and skill in the trainer.

I am not advocating All-Age dogs to all, but not due to difficulty in training, but the time few are willing to invest. Well, that and it is not a lot of fun.

And about the Bo pup for a foot hunter, I have seen Bo himself kept in a 1/4 acre bird field. Buddy Smith used to take Bo to seminars and work him off lead in a motel parking lot. People, cars, noise, airplanes, etc not even a distraction, but Buddy is a master trainer that spent the needed time in developing him.
Dang man, I was born in Arkansas (I see you are from there) but you got all kinds of dumb on that post. To give the example of keeping Bo in a 1/4 acre field or parking lot in the context of the CHALLENGE I GAVE YOU concerning a foot hunting grouse dog is "bleep" DISINGENUOUS AND MORE BAD ADVICE FOR NOVICES. That is embarrassingly bad advice in the context of this discussion.

You MOST ASSUREDLY DID SAY THE TRUE AA DOG IS A ONE SIZE FITS ALL DOG. Here is your quote: ...."So if a (16 year old) backwoods Ozark boy could learn to train a renegade adult All-Age dog to foot hunt, I got to believe most that come here could, too. How, you ask? He did it by......." I snuck her into my bedroom and in the field I would call her back before she got further than 50 - 60 yards for a treat".

AND HE SAID THIS..."...reliable, adjustable e-collars, now they are readily available and inexpensive it should allow most anyone to put a handle on a dog, any dog".

Funny you just don't hear about many hunters hunting with TRUE AA bred dogs for ruffed grouse and woodcock.

So therefore I'm interested in seeing how you would take an AA bred pup and turn it into a serviceable foot hunting Grouse and woodcock dog for a 50 year old man. E collar or dog treat-it's very misleading to the general public looking for advice to post such fantasy.

Could a professional do it? Most likely he could, but wouldn't waste his time due to the effort involved as you're rowing upstream against his DNA. Imagine a novice taking it on.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by JKP » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:47 pm

The vast majority of folks who buy pups of any breed in this country don't have the skills of Rick Smith or most of the folks on this Board. Seems to me what is being said is that these dogs aren't being bred for the average guy...or even the intermediate. We've had this discussion in Euro dog circles too...of breeding hotter and hotter dogs (yeah, we actually have a few!!!). The question I have is who are we breeding them for?? Whenever you're pushing the desire, you're also pushing the limits of cooperation....and folks we don't know get to deal with it. In Rick Smith's hands, these dogs become something else than what the normal owner/hunter can make out of them. I assume the response to this will be that the product of NC quality dogs are cooperative out of the womb :wink: Don't get me wrong, I've seen dogs of many breeds that I would have loved to have but with owners that were totally over matched.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Jakezilla » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:57 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
Funny you just don't hear about many hunters hunting with TRUE AA bred dogs for ruffed grouse and woodcock.

So therefore I'm interested in seeing how you would take an AA bred pup and turn it into a serviceable foot hunting Grouse and woodcock dog for a 50 year old man. E collar or dog treat-it's very misleading to the general public looking for advice to post such fantasy.

Could a professional do it? Most likely he could, but wouldn't waste his time due to the effort involved as you're rowing upstream against his DNA. Imagine a novice taking it on.
I developed a dog out of Caladen's Rail Hawk and one of Ross's bitches. Started him in the woods and kept him int he woods. I ended up selling him to a family as a hunting/house dog because he didn't have the style I was looking for to compete in high level coverdog trials. A teenage girl takes him grouse hunting with her grandfather and they do just fine. It can be done.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by jetjockey » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:02 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:Could a professional do it? Most likely he could, but wouldn't waste his time due to the effort involved as you're rowing upstream against his DNA. Imagine a novice taking it on.
Wanna bet? It's called learning the game. Many people do it, you just don't realize it. You will want to pay attention to what is said around the 4-4:30. Sounds like your grouse dogs run bigger than an AA National champion when it's foot hunting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC6d9McOdS8
Last edited by jetjockey on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:06 pm

Jakezilla wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:
Funny you just don't hear about many hunters hunting with TRUE AA bred dogs for ruffed grouse and woodcock.

So therefore I'm interested in seeing how you would take an AA bred pup and turn it into a serviceable foot hunting Grouse and woodcock dog for a 50 year old man. E collar or dog treat-it's very misleading to the general public looking for advice to post such fantasy.

Could a professional do it? Most likely he could, but wouldn't waste his time due to the effort involved as you're rowing upstream against his DNA. Imagine a novice taking it on.
I developed a dog out of Caladen's Rail Hawk and one of Ross's bitches. Started him in the woods and kept him int he woods. I ended up selling him to a family as a hunting/house dog because he didn't have the style I was looking for to compete in high level coverdog trials. A teenage girl takes him hunting with her grandfather and they do just fine. It can be done.
That's great, I'm sure you did. Could this guy do it? A 25 year old guy that grew up grouse hunting with his grandpa around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had his second child. He moves to northern Wisconsin and wants to grouse and woodcock hunt 5 or 6 weekends and maybe a long weekend or two. Would that same Rail Hawk pup be one you recommend he buy?

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by jetjockey » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:10 pm

Did you watch the video? What was said around the 3:45-4 minute mark?

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:14 pm

Where is that video posted jetjockey? Nice to see a video like that especially with Bud.....

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:14 pm

jetjockey wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:Could a professional do it? Most likely he could, but wouldn't waste his time due to the effort involved as you're rowing upstream against his DNA. Imagine a novice taking it on.
Wanna bet? It's called learning the game. Many people do it, you just don't realize it. You will want to pay attention to what is said around the 4-4:30. Sounds like your grouse dogs run bigger than an AA National champion when it's foot hunting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC6d9McOdS8

Number 1 you, nor I nor is 99% of the folks out there on par with Gary Lester.
Number 2 I'll just about gosh darned guarantee you that comment about hunting a bird dog for quail at 200 yards was said to dispell the whole AA range discussion to promote AA dogs. Who the heck would chose to hold an AA dog to 200 yards on a wild quail hunt? He's "talking to the camera".

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Jakezilla » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:16 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
That's great, I'm sure you did. Could this guy do it? A 25 year old guy that grew up grouse hunting with his grandpa around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had his second child. He moves to northern Wisconsin and wants to grouse and woodcock hunt 5 or 6 weekends and maybe a long weekend or two. Would that same Rail Hawk pup be one you recommend he buy?

Never know until you try, I did it because I was told it "couldn't" be done and that I was crazy to bring an AA bred dog in the woods. He wasn't any harder than any other dog I have trained. The best thing for someone like you described is to go buy a finished dog because it sounds like no matter what type of pup he buys he won't have the time required to train it.
Last edited by Jakezilla on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: trial hunting ranges

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:17 pm

Ok...ok...ok...you new people out there, listen carefully, if you intend to hunt grouse or woodcock in Michigan or Pennsylvania (I think it was PA.?) do not buy an all age breeding. Furthermore, i you happen to own dog of this ilk I will have to ask that you surrender it immediately to the proper authority. You will know the authority by the proper amount of pomposity, tweed and the smell of Scotch. Should you not be able to smell the Scotch look for someone typing in capitals calling folks with experience dumb...

As Zep said, there are very few All-Age dogs born from simply all-age to all age, certain lines do increase your odds and I believe tighter line breedings more so (and most of these breedings are private by the way meaning Joe Blow cant even buy one). All that being said, there are more potential "all-age" dogs that never prove it, than actually get campaigned and labeled as such. Where are they? Happily hunting with folks who didn't know any better and spent their time and experiences shaping the behavior early on in a dog and through association the dog is conditioned to behave in a manner that makes it successful. Now, there are those that may argue that the average guy just wants a dog to take hunting a handful of times in the fall (if their football team is failing) and live in the yard the rest of the year, and a certain type of dog is just "too crazy." They really don't need a pointing dog at all...they need an over weight Labrador that flushes naturally and hangs around.

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