trial hunting ranges

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:18 pm

Grousehunter,

I answered your questions as honestly as I know how without calling you dumb or disingenuous as you have me. There is just no need for personal insult.

But I will make it clearer for you.

I am a 66 year old infirmed man and I have trained All-Age dogs to hunt grouse and woodcock and could do it again.

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:18 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:That's great, I'm sure you did. Could this guy do it? A 25 year old guy that grew up grouse hunting with his grandpa around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had his second child. He moves to northern Wisconsin and wants to grouse and woodcock hunt 5 or 6 weekends and maybe a long weekend or two. Would that same Rail Hawk pup be one you recommend he buy?

Come on. A guy who can't train a dog to come in, and turn, has no business hunting over one.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:22 pm

Jakezilla wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:
That's great, I'm sure you did. Could this guy do it? A 25 year old guy that grew up grouse hunting with his grandpa around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had his second child. He moves to northern Wisconsin and wants to grouse and woodcock hunt 5 or 6 weekends and maybe a long weekend or two. Would that same Rail Hawk pup be one you recommend he buy?

Never know until you try, I did it because I was told it "couldn't" be done and that I was crazy to bring an AA bred dog in the woods. He wasn't any harder than any other dog I have trained. The best thing for someone like you described is to go buy a finished dog because it sounds like no matter what he buys he won't have the time required to train it.

Can't let you off that easily. In the context of this thread...the guys wife is dead set on a puppy. The guy reads Gundog forum and between reading Neil and Birddog 1968's posts he figures to get the best AA bred puppy, a box of dog treats and a Tri Tronics E collar and he's pumped to do it himself.

I'll ask you again.....WOULD THAT SAME RAIL HAWK PUP BE ONE YOU RECOMMEND HE BUY"?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:24 pm

No I'd suggest a snowatch pup

Or a dog like the PA state phez champion. ( chiefs honcho Joe)

Or a Joe shadow dog on woodcock

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:25 pm

shags wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:That's great, I'm sure you did. Could this guy do it? A 25 year old guy that grew up grouse hunting with his grandpa around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had his second child. He moves to northern Wisconsin and wants to grouse and woodcock hunt 5 or 6 weekends and maybe a long weekend or two. Would that same Rail Hawk pup be one you recommend he buy?
Come on. A guy who can't train a dog to come in, and turn, has no business hunting over one.

Yet this forum and the hunting lands of North America are replete with those who own dogs right now but their dogs aren't as reliable as you make it sound so easy for folks to obtain. Thank heavens for pro trainers who can help.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:26 pm

They just can't believe a dog has enough brains to know the difference between a handler on Foot & a man on a Horse.The first placement my dog ever had was a walking trial in Pa,the first time she ran at the GSPCA Nats at Uereka Kan they lost her but tracker found her standing on point .7 miles away they road to her & flushed the birds said looked like a wild covey & they were still there,If it was wild was the only wild birds found during that 2 wk event.They had been searching for her for 15 to 20 minutes then another 6 to 10 minute ride.I can hunt her off foot I won't trip over her but she stays in contact.

Jakezilla · Post by **Jakezilla** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:30 pm

Sorry I must have missed the post. Where did the 25 year old guy come into it? If he is listening "What ever you do, don't challenge yourself. You might learn something."

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:32 pm

A guardrail x rock acre blackhawk makes a dang fine grouse seeking missile.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:34 pm

Jakezilla wrote:Sorry I must have missed the post. Where did the 25 year old guy come into it? If he is listening "What ever you do, don't challenge yourself. You might learn something."

You giving up that quickly? Go back just a couple posts up. Just answer the question.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:39 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:So let me get this straight: you'd have us believe a 16 year "backwoods Ozarks Boy" with dog treats in his pockets was able to produce an on again-off again "foot hunting dog" with a "renegade adult field trial reject AA" dog, which a professional trialer, could not? LMAO!! I get it...it's so easy even a caveman (or teenager) can do it!!

To the new and inexperienced readers: BUYER BEWARE. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE ASSUMING A TRUE AA BRED DOG IS RIGHT FOR YOU AND YOUR PARTICULAR SITUATION. IT MIGHT BE, AND IT MIGHT NOT BE. DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON MESSAGE FORUMS.

I'm done with this thread. I'll bring up one of my own posts and repeat what I want to get across...and if I help a novice separate the wheat from the chaff I feel good about my participation in this thread. Some of you guys treat this AA dog thing like a religion. LOL.

READ BELOW...

"To the new and inexperienced readers: BUYER BEWARE. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE ASSUMING A TRUE AA BRED DOG IS RIGHT FOR YOU AND YOUR PARTICULAR SITUATION. IT MIGHT BE, AND IT MIGHT NOT BE. DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON MESSAGE FORUMS".

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:41 pm

Beware that rebel might even retrieve ducks

And their terrible as pets too.

Jakezilla · Post by **Jakezilla** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:42 pm

I was that guy. The first dog I trained from scratch was way too hot for me. It was a real challenge, I had a steep learning curve and I could have easily threw in the towel but I stuck with it and did what I had to to get the job done (Rick Smith Seminars and guidance from a pro Rick recommended). Looking back I wouldn't have it any other way, that dog and the experience taught me a lot.

So to answer your question, "Ya why not?" If that's what he wants I am not going to try to talk him out of it. Who am I to say whether he has it in him or not.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:53 pm

Is this GDF.COM or GDF.CO.UK?..Looks the same,sounds the same. Where is Sh***n/Judy , anyway?...when you need them

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:02 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:JKP you have a lot of nerve talking about honesty when you posted on this forum that you did not send me a PM stating you don't like ONE WINNER takes all venues because they are about the people & not the dogs.

Then you post how testing is the same as competition in another thread but above you again bring up competition as the reason for F Trials ruining F Trial dogs.

If Competition & testing are the same as you claim how is one about the people & the other about the dogs??

Your talking out both sides of your mouth!

What does PM mean?

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:32 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
shags wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:That's great, I'm sure you did. Could this guy do it? A 25 year old guy that grew up grouse hunting with his grandpa around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Just had his second child. He moves to northern Wisconsin and wants to grouse and woodcock hunt 5 or 6 weekends and maybe a long weekend or two. Would that same Rail Hawk pup be one you recommend he buy?
Come on. A guy who can't train a dog to come in, and turn, has no business hunting over one.
Yet this forum and the hunting lands of North America are replete with those who own dogs right now but their dogs aren't as reliable as you make it sound so easy for folks to obtain. Thank heavens for pro trainers who can help.

Training takes a little effort. Don't blame a dog's pedigree for the results of an owner's laziness.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:52 pm

shags wrote: Training takes a little effort. Don't blame a dog's pedigree for the results of an owner's laziness.

Training takes an 'Immense' amount of effort'...dare I also say 'Skill'.and a whole lot more sacrifice depending on the Family and life commitments.
The 'Pedigree' (imo) just gives something to build upon.....'Laziness' can also be seen as 'unable' ?...But to 'Label' it with Lethargic' would be wrong (imo).
I blame every 'Pedigree' winner for selling a pup from Pedigree winners to people in the belief that those pups will be the same

shags · Post by **shags** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:29 pm

Put the dog on a checkcord. Tug it. Reel the dog in. Say "good boy!"
Repeat.
Repeat, but add the command 'here' tug the checkcord. Reel the dog in. Say "good boy"!

Takes about 3 minutes a day, and the IQ of a turnip.

Hardly difficult, complicated, requiring expensive equipment or the counsel of a pro :roll:

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Polmaise, with today's american pointers your chances if getting something consistent is pretty good, and with the natural abilities and trainability you at least get a fair chance....the rest is up to the owner......

Is line breeding prevalent in pointing dogs on that side of the pond?

If you look at the video above with the pointer near the end and then my picture where I mention snowatch they are father daughter and very much alike in more than looks.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:41 pm

Jeeeeeeeeeez

:roll: I certainly did not intend or anticipate that just a short post from me about a rather unusual trial would kick off in this way.

In answer to a posters question....yes we do line breed this side of the pond and sometimes we get what we want and sometimes we don't. I happen to like hard hunting, wide ranging dogs (by British standards.) As I used to tell competitors just before the few HPR trials I judged ...." If I have time to yawn and scratch my backside as your dogs hunt then you will be unlikely to win." I had trial winning HPR's myself but just to try to give you some idea of the gap between HPR open ground trials here and those for pointers and setters I will tell you about a demonstration day for gamekeepers and landowners I once took part in.

I took part with a GSP bitch and her son. My fellow demonstrator had won the British pointer/setter Championships just the previous year. He brought two pointers with him. A novice trial winner and the dog that had won the Championships. I thought the Novice standard dog hunted and pointed on that grouse moor very well. A Scottish grouse moor is not always a fairly flat bit of ground and this ground was high, rolling hills. The keepers and landowners liked the Novice dog too and the man (a good friend of mines) got a big clap as the dog was called back in.

Then he let loose the F.T.Ch. it took off like a rocket and kept right on going up and up and up until it vanished over the top of a hill. There was utter silence from the spectators until an old keeper said loudly .... " Nah, nah ! That'll no dae at aw ! I've got plenty of dugs like that yin in the kennels !" I'm afraid we all burst out laughing.

The difference between a spectacular performance from a pointer here and a dog that is "nae use at aw" is often a matter of control. In those circumstances on that moor the very hard going dog was not what was wanted .
I felt my own dogs performance was O.K. but no more than that yet I got a bit of a clap at the end and a lot of pleasing comments. My dogs and the Novice pointer would not have pleased a good number of the folk who have posted in on this thread but they could do the job in a way that the people present seemed to like.

I think my friend had given his F.T.Ch. a bit too much free-rein just prior to this demo in the hope of a spectacular performance and the dog made it more spectacular than he had bargained for ! He caught up with his vanished dog but he had to go traipsing over the hill to do it .

It really is "horses for courses" where hunting ranges are concerned. Britain does not have many courses suitable for a really wide ranging dog and we are all foot hunters here so we don't want to walk half a mile to points anyway.

Bill T.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:44 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Britain does not have many courses suitable for a really wide ranging dog and we are all foot hunters here so we don't want to walk half a mile to points anyway.

Bill T.

Just curious - if you were to spend a full morning hunting how many miles do you think you would walk on the moors? I figure I will cover about a 6 mile line in a mornings hunt on the prairie.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:33 am

slistoe wrote: Just curious - if you were to spend a full morning hunting how many miles do you think you would walk on the moors? I figure I will cover about a 6 mile line in a mornings hunt on the prairie.

About half that distance would be normal over here slistoe,however it would appear 3 times the distance as the 'Heather' is often knee high and the topography appears that you are always going Up Hill , even on the way back

A wise hunter would leave or dismiss shooting Mountain Hare unless it was a few hundred yards from the truck

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:49 am

I agree , I'd expect to walk no more than 4 miles during a mornings hunt. Heather is a sort of small bush that can grow to about thigh height in some conditions which is one of the reasons why landowners burn off parts of their moors every year. Burning lets new growth through as the heathers roots are not destroyed by the burning. Grouse eat young heather shoots and usually nest among the slightly taller stuff which means that a well managed moor will look like a patchwork quilt with burnt patches, fresh growing heather patches, knee high patches and maybe if it is due for burning, some areas of high "rank" heather.
The better the quality of the heather in all of it's growth stages , the more grouse a moor is likely to hold.

Walking through miles of heather with it's pollen dust cloud rising around you as you go is tiring and many people develop what I've heard called "the heather lowp" which is a sort of high stepping walk that would look good on a comedy film. If you forget to do "the lowp" then the heather will trip you up and put you flat on your face. It is tiring for the dogs too especially, I think, when the pollen is coming off the heather in easily visible clouds. I stop from time to time to wipe around my dogs eyes and mouth with a damp sponge and to give them a drink from my upturned hat , I carry a two litre canteen of water with me and that canteen is taken from the deep freeze before I leave the house in the morning. It melts as the day goes on and my dogs seem to like a little iced water very much ..... and so do I.

Polmaise is correct, all Scottish hills are "up the way" hills ! :roll:

Bill T.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:48 am

Bill
thanks for those last two posts. Great explanations and that story.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:03 am

Quality of a dog is not governed by how far it will run or how far out it will hunt.

Nice to hear someone say that. I will miss my old black "beast"...11 years old now and showing the effects of age. Never saw her much beyond 300 yds out but that dog was just standing in front of birds
more often than any other dog I have owned or seen for that matter. Enormous "nose" on that dog, the intelligence to know where to find game and the manners to handle it when she got there. I have seen a good number of dogs find game with their feet....I prefer those that find game with their brains.

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:16 am

If you hunt by yourself and your dog is covering a respectable swath dependant upon the cover and finding birds.... Yes, it'd be hard to convince anybody that the saids dogs is anything less then ideal.
Where range truly comes into play is when you have 2 dogs down, both outstanding in their own right. Dog A may be a methodical hunter ranging 250yds from side to side always staying to front. Dog B is a speed demon and uses a ground application dependant on wind and objectives with extreme range, running until he finds birds. Yes dog A will find birds, dog B will undoubtly miss some birds because he's hunting the likeliest places not all the places. Dog A may even be the better dog, but you'll be walking up on dog B flushing his birds with dog A backing most of the day. Not because dog B is better, but because by the time dog A got their to try and find a bird, B has already been there and on point.
This is where range and speed, and ultimately a good AA pace came to fruition. The dog that gets to the birds the quickest with the best application, efficiency and it's best.
I can assure you it's no fun when your friends with ultra nice dogs won't hunt with you because they always get out birded. It's not fun to have your dog backing all day. So they get faster, bigger running dogs. Then you end up with your dog backing all day, so you get faster, bigger running dogs, so on and so forth. It's the spirit of competition, the betterment of the breed.
In my opinion, this is where range truly matters.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:00 am

Dog A grabs fence line C while dog B grabs hedge row D, there are no birds on hedge row D today but there is at fence line C and dog B is late to the party at fence line C or decides to go to another party

. This generalization stuff is fun because i always win

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:46 am

Regarding who can or cannot handle an AA "pup", having lived Something akin to 'the novice with the AA pup' scenario, and survived, I'd agree it's not for the faint of heart. That first year in the field I'd go from terrified to angry to "all is lost" and back to terrified. That was just in the first 10 minutes the dog was on the ground. The second year was better. We actually found birds on hunting trips. But the poor bird populations held us back. Toward the end of the season we worked well together. This third season, we were both relaxed in the field and became efficient.

Still, I think it's a matter of how dedicated a person is to learning.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c125/ ... 909b80.jpg

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:44 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:
Still, I think it's a matter of how dedicated a person is to learning.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c125/ ... 909b80.jpg

Exactly.

The new e-collars and GPS are tools that make that learning easier and quicker.

Still, I do not recommend All-Age for those that do not want to learn and take the time to train. But it is just not that difficult.

Let me end with if the way your dog hunts pleases you, I am very happy for you both. Enjoy.

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:48 pm

It's kind of shocking with all the knowledge and experience of true AA dogs on this forum alone you would think more would be competing at the national level?

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:41 pm

Quailcommando wrote:It's kind of shocking with all the knowledge and experience of true AA dogs on this forum alone you would think more would be competing at the national level?

What does that have to do with anything?

Quailcommando · Post by **Quailcommando** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:00 pm

Not many running because they don't come along that often. But a lot of people think all big running dogs are all age and that's not the case. Someone takes out a big running dog it makes a big cast then checks in with them and they think they have a all age dog. Just wondering how many people commenting have really got behind the wheel of a true all age.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:16 pm

I agree.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:17 pm

I'm gonna got out fishing yesterday in my own mind at the pond out back. Been using a bunch of topwater baits since it's still frozen and no matter how much weight I put on I just can't seem to get them to the bottom where the fish are. Later in the week I'm gonna go out last weekend and catch a world record gar-bass with a double eyed loomis rod specially designed for garbass with special experimental aluminium fishing line. After I get that experience under my belt, as soon as I get home I think I'll find a good fishing forum so I can teach them all how to fly fish for trout and prove to them it's the only "real" way to fish.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:28 pm

Quailcommando wrote:Not many running because they don't come along that often. But a lot of people think all big running dogs are all age and that's not the case. Someone takes out a big running dog it makes a big cast then checks in with them and they think they have a all age dog. Just wondering how many people commenting have really got behind the wheel of a true all age.

That is exactly right.

In my posts I distinguish between TRUE AA and big running. TRUE AA dogs are very situational, more rare than common and not, REPEAT, not an "everyman" dog.

It's just plain irresponsible to make the claims that have been made by some on here. And yes, it's been a few years back, but I have been behind the wheel of several TRUE AA dogs.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:46 pm

question... is AA different according to the breed being discussed?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:52 pm

Quailcommando wrote:Not many running because they don't come along that often. But a lot of people think all big running dogs are all age and that's not the case. Someone takes out a big running dog it makes a big cast then checks in with them and they think they have a all age dog. Just wondering how many people commenting have really got behind the wheel of a true all age.

I believe you will find that dogs have to qualify for the NC so no matter how many are running during the season just the winners qualify.

Just what is the purpose of this whole thread anyway. There is no such thing as trial or hunting range as a set number. Range is normally dictated by the cover and type of terrain. Have you ever looked at any of Doug Favors pictures? If you have tell me what is the proper range in that country with you on horseback? And then look at where I hunt and again tell me the proper range. And it doesn't make much difference if you are hunting or trialing the range is pretty well determined before you even start.

One nice thing is you can have a hunting dog with whatever range you like and that would be perfect. The hunters that say they want a dog within 50 yds. at most or the trailer who trys to tell you that any good dog will be at least 700 yds or more away are both just blowing smoke.

In most cases the proper range is whatever it takes to find birds. End of argument and end of someone saying my dog is better than yours or my dog is easier to train than yours since none of you have seen the other guys dogs and have no idea whether what you are saying is true or not

Anyone that has a dog that performs exactly the way you want it to in the field and it finds birds have the best dog in the world bar none. And when it comes time to get another buy it from someone that has dogs just like yours and don't worry about what anyone else has to say about it.

Ezzy

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:58 pm

A great explanation of an All Age dog.
http://strideaway.com/a-definition-of-t ... n-russell/

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:23 pm

fuzznut wrote:question... is AA different according to the breed being discussed?

Not in terms of trainiability and bidibility as it is being discussed here. In fact I have found the extreme A-A pointer to be the most cooperative, perhaps because we are sttill pushing the continentals. Which is opposite to what some suggest. But even with Bo's recent triumphs, the pointer is the All-Age standard to which all are judged.

But then I have been called dumb, disingenuous, irresponsible, and now inexperienced.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:29 pm

Seems to me birds behave about the same close or far...freakin' birds - not readin' the GDF rulebook!!

All is fair in love & war... Combine the two & hang onto yer arse!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:38 pm

Quill, I wonder about the distance too and just couldn't figure out why a dog can't hold a bird when it is several hundred yds away as it can if it points at 40 yds. They either do or they don't and distance never made a difference I could see.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:59 am

Quill, I wonder about the distance too and just couldn't figure out why a dog can't hold a bird when it is several hundred yds away as it can if it points at 40 yds. They either do or they don't and distance never made a difference I could see.

Its not a question of the dog holding the birds...its how long the birds will accept the pressure of the dog and the approaching hunter. Covies of sharpies, as an example, are unlikely to sit for 15 minutes while dog and hunter increase the pressure....especially if the birds have been pressured before..a single or double might. This would be less of a concern for someone that is not hunting to shoot game.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:49 am

[/quote]

[/quote]

Awesome pic

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:10 am

JKP wrote:
Quill, I wonder about the distance too and just couldn't figure out why a dog can't hold a bird when it is several hundred yds away as it can if it points at 40 yds. They either do or they don't and distance never made a difference I could see.
Its not a question of the dog holding the birds...its how long the birds will accept the pressure of the dog and the approaching hunter. Covies of sharpies, as an example, are unlikely to sit for 15 minutes while dog and hunter increase the pressure....especially if the birds have been pressured before..a single or double might. This would be less of a concern for someone that is not hunting to shoot game.

Especially these guys this time of year. They have no respect for a dog and will walk away or flush with hardly any provocation.

This girl is figuring them out though.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:57 am

About the only way you can hunt valley quail is break up the covies and hunt single's. While cove's sometime will hold, usually they won't. I think the problem is the have a sentry bird and it goes, they all generally go!

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:23 pm

DonF wrote:About the only way you can hunt valley quail is break up the covies and hunt single's. While cove's sometime will hold, usually they won't. I think the problem is the have a sentry bird and it goes, they all generally go!

That is how late season sharpies generally work - but breaking up the covey is nigh on to impossible. So we hunt for the solitary cock birds and the late stragglers from the heavy cover.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:30 pm

DonF wrote:About the only way you can hunt valley quail is break up the covies and hunt single's. While cove's sometime will hold, usually they won't. I think the problem is the have a sentry bird and it goes, they all generally go!

Valley quail will run out from an approaching dog or hunter from way out. I've seen them at more than 100-150 yards start to run away if they've spotted you. And the Valley quail's cousin, the Gambels, is the same thing on steroids.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:05 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:
DonF wrote:About the only way you can hunt valley quail is break up the covies and hunt single's. While cove's sometime will hold, usually they won't. I think the problem is the have a sentry bird and it goes, they all generally go!
Valley quail will run out from an approaching dog or hunter from way out. I've seen them at more than 100-150 yards start to run away if they've spotted you. And the Valley quail's cousin, the Gambels, is the same thing on steroids.

And then there are blues!

Lots of species of birds are challenging for a pointing dog to handle under certain conditions no matter the dog's range.

You can add Bobs in snow, pheasants in standing corn, ptarmigan on bare ground, snowcock anytime, ruffs early, etc.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:54 pm

I have to admit, I've never hunted bobs, ptarmigan, or snowcock. But I've hunted chukar. They pretty well can run a hunter to cry uncle. The few blues I hunted were on flat ground and while challenging, they weren't an exercise in masochism chukar hunting can be. Mearns have become a pleasure I've learned to savor, especially bringing a young dog along.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:10 pm

I almost tried standing corn one long ago for pheasant's. What a joke that was! Even if the dog had managed to hold one, how do you shoot in there?