Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

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Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:39 am

I keep hearing how a field dog should have good conformation to move right in the field. Should a field dog have the same conformation as the show dog?

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Last edited by Ms. Cage on Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:43 am

Yes but size and cosmetic differences abound in some breeds with little effect on actual bone and muscle confirmation.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Grousehunter123 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:55 am

It depends on the breed and how far the show dogs have deviated from what is proven to benefit the field dogs. For example the Chesapeake Bay Retriever I'd say yes. For the English Setter I'd say no.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:03 am

I'd add the lab to the list of show type "iffy's."

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by fuzznut » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:06 am

they should both have the conformation described in their breed standards! least that is my goal

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:28 am

Would you consider breeding your FT, hunt test lines to a Show CH. that is all Show lines ? Dual CH that is from all Show lines ? Look to improve comformation by breeding to a dog that has the conformation your looking for from trial lines ?

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ohmymy111 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:40 am

In the Epagneul Breton, French Brittany world, conformation in the Ring and the Field is the same. Conformation is how a breed is defined, and Field is what their job is. Both are equally important along with temperament. All 3 things are what, in the end, defines a breed. No one of the 3 should ever be seriously lacking or they should not ever be considered for breeding.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:01 pm

ohmymy111 wrote:Conformation is how a breed is defined, and Field is what their job is. Both are equally important along with temperament. All 3 things are what, in the end, defines a breed. No one of the 3 should ever be seriously lacking or they should not ever be considered for breeding.
I am going to agree with Oh My My...

So where do things go wrong in the triangulated equation as described? Conformation is easily confirmed in a gym, park, living room, garage, driveway, etc... Temperament is not hard to gauge either with most dogs showing their colors pretty quickly, he either bites you or not; or varying degrees thereof.

I believe that the breeds can go sour because the importance of field work is sacrificed. It is the most difficult to establish and measure and breed clubs can fill up with well meaning dog lovers that have different purposes, wants and needs than what the breed was established for. I don't want the predator bred out, I can get lap dogs any number of ways...

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Karen » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:29 pm

When we sacrifice conformation to enhance performance WAY PAST what the Brittany was designed for or the breed standard could possibly allow for, then we've lost sight of what makes each breed unique.

And when you sacrifice performance for long flowing coats to hide a lack of depth of chest, when you show a dog with no rib spring, or with such extreme angles (or lack thereof) that the dog couldn't possibly finish an hour in the field and come up sound, that's as big an issue.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by fuzznut » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:51 pm

My goal has always been to breed a BIS Dual Champion. One of my Specialty winning/Group winning Duals sired one and I was proud as punch. I always figure I show my field dogs, because I can... not because they were bred for that reason.

Been breeding back and forth between trial and show lines for 30 yrs now... but always with an eye toward the performance aspect first! Always! It's a challenge for sure, but one that has been worth it for me. Others will not agree and will tell me I am compromising. Guess they are right to a point.

Luckily in GWP's Dual Champions have proven themselves against some pretty stiff all breed competition across the country!

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:57 pm

Dual is right. You start with performance. Pretty alone is not doing any working breed much good. You see structure and movement work best when you put it to work day after day. You can be pretty certain that the dogs that flow over the ground, day after day, light on their feet while making it look easy have the structure. Those that would give up all else to achieve show ring perfection are missing the point.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:42 pm

JKP wrote:Dual is right. You start with performance. Pretty alone is not doing any working breed much good. You see structure and movement work best when you put it to work day after day. You can be pretty certain that the dogs that flow over the ground, day after day, light on their feet while making it look easy have the structure. Those that would give up all else to achieve show ring perfection are missing the point.
just as those that give up all else to achieve field perfection are missing the point.

When you look at any one aspect of an animal and ignore the others you have failed.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:00 pm

I have owned two dogs, a Brittany and a GSP that won in the ring and in trials. I hasten to add that I did not show them. Showing dogs bores me. Most of the HPR breeds are still capable of doing reasonably well in the showring and can also work but I have noticed that the dogs bred for work often seem to be better at it.
Too many of the show dogs lack "fire" when asked to work.

I think what has gone wrong with breeds like the lab and the springer spaniel is that the show people do not really understand what the dog could be required to do as a worker and often totally fail to breed for those qualities in a working dog that we need. The show folk read the show standards then begin to think .... "if a broad head and heavy coat is good, then a bigger head and a very heavy coat must be even better." Show folk follow fashion trends.

The same thing happens when working dogs are bred but if those dogs aren't good workers the trend gets stopped in it's tracks.....unless the trial judges happen to like them ! :lol:

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by BigJake » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:02 pm

I think there needs to be a balance, I see so many dogs that either run trials or show rings, either they don't look like they are supposed to, or they don't hunt. I tend to like the breeder that breeds for the average foot Hunter, one that strives for conformation and one that will hunt well for you. I think there are far more dog owners that are weekend hunters, and could care less about trials or show rings, they just want a dog that is a good representative of the breed.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:35 pm

BigJake wrote:I think there needs to be a balance, I see so many dogs that either run trials or show rings, either they don't look like they are supposed to, or they don't hunt. I tend to like the breeder that breeds for the average foot Hunter, one that strives for conformation and one that will hunt well for you. I think there are far more dog owners that are weekend hunters, and could care less about trials or show rings, they just want a dog that is a good representative of the breed.
Amen

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ohmymy111 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:04 am

How do you find the dogs to breed that will be good representations of the breed? That is the purpose of competition in the field and in the ring. Our dogs are where they are today because of competition. The problem today is that people tend to do either the field or the ring to the exclusion of the other and end up changing the dogs as a result. As I said before the dog as a whole is to be evaluated, conformation, work and temperament.

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Post by birddog1968 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:44 am

I've asked this elsewhere and never gotten an answer, why should dogs be held to a standard and not change? Why should they not advance by a performance standard? Did they have it right in 1850 ( or whatever year) and should stay static? Why?

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:43 am

How do you find the dogs to breed that will be good representations of the breed? That is the purpose of competition in the field and in the ring. Our dogs are where they are today because of competition. The problem today is that people tend to do either the field or the ring to the exclusion of the other and end up changing the dogs as a result. As I said before the dog as a whole is to be evaluated, conformation, work and temperament.
So who breeds their top performance dog to a beautiful show dog?? Who breeds their perfect show dog to a field dog?? Don't get me wrong...there are folks who strive for both but in many breeds that is a small % of enthusiasts. I was in AKC dogs for a long time and sadly had to admit that winning was more important than the dogs....beautiful show dogs with no evidence of ability and great performance dogs often looking like the poor relations....and in the middle a few folks struggling to put out a complete package. This resulted in a very small gene pool of what I though to be, as a breeder, of top breeding dogs. It could all be stopped tomorrow if the AKC decided that to get a CH a dog needed to have at least won a major stake or achieved some meaningful level of performance....or that to get an FC, MH, etc a dog must have some evidence of proper type, etc....but that's not going to happen.

Maybe the Pointer guys have it right....they don't give a rats derriere what a dog looks like (within reason!!) as long as the tail is vertical and the head "cranks"...it either carries the mail or it doesn't. Sure would make less to worry about.

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Re:

Post by jetjockey » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:09 am

birddog1968 wrote:I've asked this elsewhere and never gotten an answer, why should dogs be held to a standard and not change? Why should they not advance by a performance standard? Did they have it right in 1850 ( or whatever year) and should stay static? Why?
I don't think they should. You can't really breed for a better dog, yet breed exactly to what the standard says. Take Brittany's for instance. Many people believe Brits should be close working dogs based on the standard. How does breeding more close working dogs who perfectly fit the standard enhance the breed? The only way to advance the breed is for there to be a goal in breeding. That goal could be many things, bigger running dogs, more natural retrievers, more versatile, etc. Breeding the same 50-100 yard perfectly standard dog does nothing to enhance the breed.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by BigJake » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:39 am

Elhew, Ryman, Hemlock, are just a few of the breeders I believe that would breed for looks and performance. Would these dogs win any field trials or show championships? A few would, but the majority would be a great representative of the breed and be great companion gundogs that were pleasing to the eye. I think the gsp is probably less affected by field and show people than any breed out there, I have seen best in show dogs in the ring one day, and tearing up the field the next. I think both the akc and fdsb could do a lot to help improve the breed if they just made the dogs have to compete in both venues. As far as breeding dogs for range, I don't buy that, I believe you breed for brains, for if you have a very biddable dog he will do his best to please you and do what you want.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:16 am

The biggest issue I had in my little shot at the show ring was how much it depends on the handler. I was told by several judges I would have won with a better handler. So, I either had to hire a handler or give it up. I chose to give it up.......Cj

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:27 am

But it's not about winning so they would have to make it some kind of TEST!! :lol: This is not Germany we are free to breed as we choose not some one tell us what to breed if you like their system better there are ships crossing the ocean every day. :wink:

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by fuzznut » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:45 am

I believe there are more out there in the bird dog world that look at the conformation of a dog then most think. They may never show them, and that's fine, but they pay attention.
Showing is a PITA to be honest, but I do it. Do I enjoy it... not like I used to. But I do like to watch other dogs in the ring just to see what the trends are, what lines are producing what in the way of problems and the good things as well.

Well put together dogs move easier, but their conformation isn't the entire picture. They have to have the heart, the brains and the temperament to work, and those are the things one can't see in the show ring. The unfortunate part of the show only world is that those owners and breeders really don't know if their dogs have those pieces of the puzzle. They may hunt the dog, and that's great, but just because a dog will hunt... does not mean it will contribute to the betterment of the breed, no matter how pretty they may be.

So what's more important? I have seen some dang ugly dogs put out tremendous performances on very consistent basis's , sometimes I scratch my head and wonder... how in the world can THAT dog run like that and for that long .... some things just don't make any sense. That's what keeps breeding interesting!

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:58 pm

Exactly Fuzz & no two people get the same from reading the standard just as no 2 people like the same kind of hunting dog & I'm glad or they would all be alike.How boring!

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Karen » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:17 pm

But READ your breed standard, study it and try to understand it.

Someone above mentioned how the Brittany breed standard states that they're close working dogs. IT DOES NOT! Nowhere is range mentioned in the standard.

The standard is the only thing that separates a Brittany from a pointer from a setter.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by jetjockey » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:44 pm

Karen wrote:But READ your breed standard, study it and try to understand it.

Someone above mentioned how the Brittany breed standard states that they're close working dogs. IT DOES NOT! Nowhere is range mentioned in the standard.

The standard is the only thing that separates a Brittany from a pointer from a setter.
Thats not what I said. I said many people believe brittanys should be close working dogs based on the standard. I should have put a comma after close working. I didn't mean close working is in the standard, but thats what many people believe brittanys "should" be. A close working small dog. What separates a setter from a pointer in AF? Nobody cares about the standard in AF, yet EP's and Setters are two very different breeds. Where I have a problem is when people won't breed two dogs because one, or both, don't meet some size requirement set by a group of people and written down in some book. If you have two out of standard dogs and they produce phenomenal dogs, why not breed them?

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:23 pm

I am one of those people jet jockey, The main reason I won't breed to oversized dogs is there is no need to. There are plenty of Brits that are in the standard to use that have as much ability as the ones that aren't. If you want to ignore that standard then you evidently are not satisfied with the Britts and you should go with a Setter, they are nice dogs. It has been explained that standards are what determine one breed from another. Ignore them and any size goes as well as length of coat, color, and any other feature that make a dog a certain breed.

Constantly hear about some breeds don't pay attention to the standard but raise a littler of pointers that are black or brown with low tail carriage and see how they are accepted. And look at the front end of many of them till Wehle saw the need and cleaned them up. GSp's that are the wrong colors, Britts that are the wrong size and/or color. I want a Britt that looks like a Britt, hunts like a Britt, and acts like a Britt, and when I want something different I want to be able to go to a breed that I know will produce what I am wanting. I have always had Britts that were show quality but they never got in the show ring till they proved they could hunt. When breeding any animal one of your first requirements should be they are made and put together right and then they should be able to perform as intended. If we all did that our breeds would be better off for it.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by jetjockey » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:58 pm

What is a brit "suppose" to hunt like? And how does breeding those dogs over and over again improve the breed ? Nobody has answered the question though. In AF there is no "Standard". But there is certainly a difference between AF Setters and Pointers. If what you say is true Ezzy, that wouldn't be the case..... Besides, how many brits out there are the wrong color? Ive never seen one, or heard of one.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:26 pm

AF and AKC are nothing but a registry that the breeds use to record and keep the stud books for them. AF is mainly used by field dogs and that is what they record. AKC is a complete registry for the different breeds and thewy keep the stud books for the many breeds that use them. They also sponsor field and conformation events that the breed clubs put on. They do not have anything to do with writing or enforcing the standards other than what they have been asked to enforce. But they do judge to the breed standard as they require one before they will keep the stud book for the many different breeds.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:04 pm

And how does breeding those dogs over and over again improve the breed ?
So what would be an improvement? A Britt that is more like a Pointer??? Then a Britt that is more like an AA Pointer?? What is wrong with breeding Britts or any other breed that are just consistently excellent in type and working ability??
Why should you need to improve on a well conformed, snappy 3-400 yd ground covering bird magnet? Where does it go from there??? Where's the improvement? Longer legs? bigger stride?? 6-800 yds?? over the hill and gone???

Now you now why I have an inherent distrust of the FT mind!!

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:09 pm

JKP wrote: Why should you need to improve on a well conformed, snappy 3-400 yd ground covering bird magnet?

Now you now why I have an inherent distrust of the FT mind!!
How did you get that dog and how do you keep that dog - the FT mind is my guess.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by kninebirddog » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:54 pm

I concentrate on the field as if I have a dog that would rather have a biscuit over a bird it won't be used in my program.
With that said I have produced digs that gave show pints and even show titles sure it was a great feeling to have Mrs Pat Trotter place my pouty dog reserve she wanted to really use him but blazer wasn't his usual full of himself animated personality. I was surprised she even put him reserve but she appreciated seeing a real field conditioned dog in the ring. Oh ps blazers daddy yes was over the standard but the sire brought a bunch to the table that was worth breeding a smaller lined female to him . I just did it again breeding to another NAFC dog that is over a bit but this dog also is proving to produce some extremely nice pups.

Back in the ,,1800 Edward Laverick wrote in a book about how bench if not watched would seperate the breed. You can look up his book on Google books pretty interesting read he also explained his breeding program that was part of the llewellin setter foundation.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:30 pm

And what he said was true but when you look back and see what happened the field people were just if not more so of changing them. There is no need to try and blane the other guy when anyone that is willing to compromise their standards for just one attribute is the problem. There are plenty of dogs available that can be used to produce as good of pups as any that out of standard dogs will produce. And of course it depends again on what each individuals goals are and unless it includes all aspects of our breeds we are not going to improve anything.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:15 am

How did you get that dog and how do you keep that dog - the FT mind is my guess.
Your basic assumption is that FT gets you there, but you can get there with other methods as well. The winning dog mindset creates a bunch of single best dogs with little attention to what the rest of the litter was worth.
IMO...the winning dog mindset is more about a single dog and the people than it is the breed. Does anyone here know anything factual about the littermates of Coldwater Warrior (as an example)...one of the best dogs in the nation that ran at the NC??? Where did the rest of the littermates go...performance of the littermates???...any health concerns???...trainability issues??? does anyone care??? or are all eyes on the winning dog???

Its the same in show dogs...when you have a BIS dog...what did the rest of the litter look like?? how about temperaments?? could they find a bird in a food bowl???

My apologies to those that are struggling to look at the whole picture...I know you're out there.

But Slistoe..back to your comment..

So lets say that FT did create the best of the Britts today....how far do you push it? That's the question...until they are all 22 inches tall and appearing at the NC?? IMO....the real improvement to be made in any breed today is consistency...so that every buyer can expect an honest, cooperative hard hunting dog....realizing that not every dog will be a world beater....but then there are clubs that realized that 100 years ago.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:36 am

I do not find improvement by changing the best dogs but rather by improving the poorest dogs. More uniformity?

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:50 am

ezzy333 wrote:I do not find improvement by changing the best dogs but rather by improving the poorest dogs. More uniformity?

Ezzy
Improve the poorest dogs by taking them to the winning dog! Uniformity is similar to mediocrity isn't it?

"So lets say that FT did create the best of the Britts today....how far do you push it? That's the question...until they are all 22 inches tall and appearing at the NC??"

Can't and won't happen. The reason you don't hear about the "winning" dogs siblings is because most of them went to hunters, most likely, as they should. One or two may have been culled, or more. I have no idea what happens to the winning show dogs siblings :) :roll:

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by slistoe » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:42 am

SCT wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I do not find improvement by changing the best dogs but rather by improving the poorest dogs. More uniformity?

Ezzy
Improve the poorest dogs by taking them to the winning dog! Uniformity is similar to mediocrity isn't it?

"So lets say that FT did create the best of the Britts today....how far do you push it? That's the question...until they are all 22 inches tall and appearing at the NC??"

Can't and won't happen. The reason you don't hear about the "winning" dogs siblings is because most of them went to hunters, most likely, as they should. One or two may have been culled, or more. I have no idea what happens to the winning show dogs siblings :) :roll:
What about that awesome backyard bred dogs siblings - anyone ever hear anything about them?

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:06 am

JKP here is where your theory about one dog gets in trouble.I bred my Wendy to 3 different stud dogs all FC's one a NFC the other 2 FC/AFC in the first litter there was 9 only 2 females.I sold one female & let that woman pick I kept the other I also kept one male,all the others were sold to hunting homes.One of those males got killed at 7 mos by a car,the owner bought the last remaining male to replace him.That male & another I kept track of plus the other female are hunting fools,natural retrievers,etc the best the owners have owned in their words.I chose to trial the female I kept because she was the most independent.She finished her FC the male never got trialed because I can only afford one at a time but IMO could have finished also if given the chance.This was the NFC sired litter by one of the biggest running GSPS in the country.

Her second litter there was 12 pups but lost 5 due to small size & wk.I kept one female & sold the other 6 pups to hunters a breeder/trainer in Kansas bought one female liked her so much he put one of his clients in touch with me for a male & he bought a male to train & sell.I sent both those males to him for training,he liked the male that was sold to his client so much he tried buying him then tried trading the other male for him full trained & would pay for the shipping & all so more or less his client would get a free dog.The owner declined & the last time I talked to John he said I still think about that dog I wanted him as a stud dog.He said the other male actually had a better nose but this male just stood out & had all the qualities you look for in a stud.This dog went to Minnesota & his owner put him with a trainer for a tune upwhen he was a little older.This trainer was a pointer & setter man & liked the dog enough to say if I wasn't into P & S I would make you an offer.This trainer is going to Rick & Ronnie Smith's to be certified at his training school,he took Tank with him & R& R Smith said this dog needs to be a Head Stud Dog in some one's Breeding Program as he has qualities that need to be passed on.The owner of Tank told me I never thought I would say this because I have owned some nice dogs but Tank is the best I have ever owned,I never trialed the female I kept & none of the other pups were trialed I know of only hunted.

Her third litter was 8 or 9 I kept one male that I pretty much picked coming out of the shoot because of his markings though there was another male I liked almost as much.One female went to Utah & was trialed for a short time with placements was broke at 13 mos & started broke dog stakes before she was 2 & making an impression,several pros tried buying her.Then things happen & her owner has another child to raise & sold her to a friend who ran her in some NSTRA trials
& she placed in almost everyone accumumlting 5 points but hasn't ran her much since,don't know what happened.I trained & hunted my male until he was 3 1/2 then put him with my trainer to trial,took him a trial season or 2 to get in the groove but place at 4 out of 5 trials las fall winning 2 stakes to accumulate 7 points toward he FC just needing his retrieving points to finish,he is my AVATAR DOG Storm.


My point is most of these pups went to hunting homes only the 2 I have kept & trialed were seriously trialed Star finished with a bad shoulder after taking one fall trial season off to heal up some what,never be 100 % again & barring any injuries Storm will finish.I honestly believe if the majority of these 3 litters had been seriously trialed Wendy would have had atleast 10 FC from those 3 litters.So the answer to your question what happened to the other pups is they went to HUNTING HOMES & have served their owners very well being called the best their owners ever owned & that's why we breed to F TRIAL lines!!But I know you told me I'm not a breeder because it's about the people & not the dogs but you are breeding to better the breed which I guess it means you are a breeder? :roll:

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:31 am

Ted I don't doubt what you say. I can also point to completely outcrossed stud dogs that produced excellent pups no matter what they were bred to. I'm simply saying that in a system where the object is to find the outstanding animal and not really keep track of the rest, you can't really be sure that you are raising the bar...at least not for everyone. Personally, I like to see a litter that are all over achieving and in the hands of the average trainer.

I don't know why we discuss this stuff....I'm willing to bet that we are all preaching to the choir here. I admit...I am soured on "best dog of the day" formats and what folks are willing to do (and not reveal) to be that best dog.
I realize the limitations of the test systems but I find a great deal more honest talk about what dogs are and are not among the serious folks in those organizations. There are thousands of FC in this country but no more than a handful of dogs that have ever gotten maximum marks at any level Euro test. There are super dogs in all these organizations...I guess its where you are most comfortable and folks speak your lingo.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:44 pm

JKP another thing you need to think about when you keep talking about how many FCs there are compared to the high scoring dogs in your tests.I'll bet there are a lot more dogs competing for those FCs titles then are testing for those high scores.Those F Trials are open to all breeds for the most part compared to your closed breed hunt tests.

Look I'm not trying to belittle your dogs or any one elses dogs that do tests & never have all venues have their place & like I have said the people enjoy what ever venue they choose That's the way it should be but don't try to belittle ours either.
It's my opinion that tests are not competition but I never said that makes what I like is better then what you like.That's why I live in & like this system & country because we all can choose what we enjoy not have some one tell us how we have to do it.
To me that's what makes the dogs here great because there are so much to choose from venues,breeds,you can find the type dog here that suits your style of hunting,trialing,testing,etc not that way world wide.

Choose what you like & enjoy it don't mind what I choose or like I will do the same. :wink:

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:41 pm

Ted, Have no idea what closed tests you are talking about but I have never seen one. And I think the point is true that the dogs with titles are the dogs that are owned by someone that spent the time and money to put the titles on them and there is no guarantee they were the best of the litter and your results pretty much agree with that. It is also why I have never found it necessary to breed to trial dogs as there are many dogs out there that are just as good but have been in someone's back yard all of their lives. We all like to make fun of the backyard breeder and talk up the need to breed to trial dogs and it just ain't so as you pointed out. Breeding to titled dogs is a good idea if you have not had the chance to see the dog in person but the ultimate choice is to spend some time behind the dog in the field and see what the dog has as well as looks like. And it might be a Fc or it might be the next door neighbors pet hunting dog.

Ezzy

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:14 pm

JKP another thing you need to think about when you keep talking about how many FCs there are compared to the high scoring dogs in your tests.I'll bet there are a lot more dogs competing for those FCs titles then are testing for those high scores.Those F Trials are open to all breeds for the most part compared to your closed breed hunt tests.
Ted,
You have a point...but to illustrate...since 1971, thee has been 1 ( that's ONE) dog to get the max score at the beginning level. Our breed tests aren't closed and among the FCI breeds testing in the Euro system, there are some thousands of dogs...I think you'd be surprised. Among DD last year, we evaluated 50% of the pups produced. How would that compare to GSPs??
We all like to make fun of the backyard breeder and talk up the need to breed to trial dogs
Unfortunately (sometimes)...titles and scores are a marketing necessity...for many who wouldn't know a Setter from an Aardvark!! Of course what's not on the title or the scoresheet is the important stuff.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:05 pm

Ezzy I don't think GSPS are allowed to test in Germany under the test he is talking of but since I don't know a lot about it JKP could answer that.I do know that GSPS are allowed to test under the DK tests but even if passed can not be registered as DKs but DKs can be registerted as GSPS in this country. Dogs of the different pointing breeds do compete against each other in this country.

I think the German test that JKP is talking of only allows certain breeds but I could be wrong because like I have said I really don't know much about it because I'm not interested & that's one thing that bothers me.Why does JKP keep trying to
belittle F Trials when he thinks so little of it & is really not interested in it but wants to tell us what is wrong with it.EZZY if you think I'm out of place then do as I ask you last PM I sent you.
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by jetjockey » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:18 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Ted, Have no idea what closed tests you are talking about but I have never seen one. And I think the point is true that the dogs with titles are the dogs that are owned by someone that spent the time and money to put the titles on them and there is no guarantee they were the best of the litter and your results pretty much agree with that. It is also why I have never found it necessary to breed to trial dogs as there are many dogs out there that are just as good but have been in someone's back yard all of their lives. We all like to make fun of the backyard breeder and talk up the need to breed to trial dogs and it just ain't so as you pointed out. Breeding to titled dogs is a good idea if you have not had the chance to see the dog in person but the ultimate choice is to spend some time behind the dog in the field and see what the dog has as well as looks like. And it might be a Fc or it might be the next door neighbors pet hunting dog.

Ezzy
Maybe. But how do you know they are just as good if they haven't gone to the line to prove it? It's one thing to say they are just as good, it's another thing to prove it. Do I believe there are many great dogs out there that never got the chance to show how great they are? Absolutely. But when hunting, your not asking the dog to perform to the highest level. Can a hunting dog handle a 1hr brace at the speed required to win a trial? Can it run in temps that stress the dog and still handle it mentally? Can it take the pressure required to become fully broke and rock solid on point, and not lose intensity? There is many other examples that a trial dog has to prove in order to win, that your regular hunting dog doesn't have to. It's a little disengenuous to say your breeding dogs just as good, without proving it. Because you simply do not know until you ask the dog to perform at the highest level. And hunting doesn't ask that of a dog.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:21 pm

It's a little disengenuous to say your breeding dogs just as good, without proving it. Because you simply do not know until you ask the dog to perform at the highest level. And hunting doesn't ask that of a dog.
The level that is required of a dog is determined by the owner. Careful you don't insult folks who may have very high expectations of a dog. I have started 13 in the past 15 years....4 were keepers and the rest made very good hunting dogs.

Ezzy,
I agree with you that there are some very good "unknown" dogs out there and over the years I have hunted with a few. I can remember one super little Pointer bitch that came out of a kennel in FL, known for its foot hunting dogs.
I am suspicious of the title/score marketing method when it depends on so many pro trainers and handlers....and we have that in Euro dogs too. Well known kennels that have a 'troop" of pro quality handlers that put big numbers on a whole litter of dogs. Then you have to go find out if that would have worked for the average guy. Trialing at highest levels seems to be a pro game...and that makes me wonder how well the most folks will make out with these dogs.

Don't know if any parallels can be made to the show ring where big money, politics and the right "pro" have a lot to do with it.

Just seems to me that a lot of folks here would look down there nose at a breeder that just has lots of folks happy with the work of their dogs. I find it one of the most satisfying things there is to get emails from folks who are just downright satisfied.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:19 pm

Wouldn't you say that owners that say the dog they bought from you was the best they ever owned are DOWNRIGHT SATISFIED? These are average people not pros!

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:28 pm

jetjockey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Ted, Have no idea what closed tests you are talking about but I have never seen one. And I think the point is true that the dogs with titles are the dogs that are owned by someone that spent the time and money to put the titles on them and there is no guarantee they were the best of the litter and your results pretty much agree with that. It is also why I have never found it necessary to breed to trial dogs as there are many dogs out there that are just as good but have been in someone's back yard all of their lives. We all like to make fun of the backyard breeder and talk up the need to breed to trial dogs and it just ain't so as you pointed out. Breeding to titled dogs is a good idea if you have not had the chance to see the dog in person but the ultimate choice is to spend some time behind the dog in the field and see what the dog has as well as looks like. And it might be a Fc or it might be the next door neighbors pet hunting dog.

Ezzy
Maybe. But how do you know they are just as good if they haven't gone to the line to prove it? It's one thing to say they are just as good, it's another thing to prove it. Do I believe there are many great dogs out there that never got the chance to show how great they are? Absolutely. But when hunting, your not asking the dog to perform to the highest level. Can a hunting dog handle a 1hr brace at the speed required to win a trial? Can it run in temps that stress the dog and still handle it mentally? Can it take the pressure required to become fully broke and rock solid on point, and not lose intensity? There is many other examples that a trial dog has to prove in order to win, that your regular hunting dog doesn't have to. It's a little disengenuous to say your breeding dogs just as good, without proving it. Because you simply do not know until you ask the dog to perform at the highest level. And hunting doesn't ask that of a dog.
Not everybody thinks that what trial dogs do is performing at the highest level. You still are relying on someone elses opinion of what is great....................Cj

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:59 pm

cjhills wrote:
jetjockey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Ted, Have no idea what closed tests you are talking about but I have never seen one. And I think the point is true that the dogs with titles are the dogs that are owned by someone that spent the time and money to put the titles on them and there is no guarantee they were the best of the litter and your results pretty much agree with that. It is also why I have never found it necessary to breed to trial dogs as there are many dogs out there that are just as good but have been in someone's back yard all of their lives. We all like to make fun of the backyard breeder and talk up the need to breed to trial dogs and it just ain't so as you pointed out. Breeding to titled dogs is a good idea if you have not had the chance to see the dog in person but the ultimate choice is to spend some time behind the dog in the field and see what the dog has as well as looks like. And it might be a Fc or it might be the next door neighbors pet hunting dog.

Ezzy
Maybe. But how do you know they are just as good if they haven't gone to the line to prove it? It's one thing to say they are just as good, it's another thing to prove it. Do I believe there are many great dogs out there that never got the chance to show how great they are? Absolutely. But when hunting, your not asking the dog to perform to the highest level. Can a hunting dog handle a 1hr brace at the speed required to win a trial? Can it run in temps that stress the dog and still handle it mentally? Can it take the pressure required to become fully broke and rock solid on point, and not lose intensity? There is many other examples that a trial dog has to prove in order to win, that your regular hunting dog doesn't have to. It's a little disengenuous to say your breeding dogs just as good, without proving it. Because you simply do not know until you ask the dog to perform at the highest level. And hunting doesn't ask that of a dog.
Not everybody thinks that what trial dogs do is performing at the highest level. You still are relying on someone elses opinion of what is great....................Cj

That is an easy one Cj -

When you get the opinion of a trial judge, or if you prefer, at Test judge(along with their scoring), you are getting the opinion of someone who has seen a bunch of different dogs in the trial or test setting... and who has been charged with the task of objectively and impartially evaluating and comparing the performance of that dog to others or to a written standard. Trialing and testing organizations go to some lengths to assure that the folks doing the judging do have a fair bit of experience and do not have a personal interest in the dog that would bias their judgment.

When you hear an opinion of the dog's abilities from the dog's owner, you cannot be sure if what you are hearing is valid or if its is accurate or if it is even within the realm of truth, especially if it is in relation to something that is for sale.

When I want a medical opinion, I ask a doctor...or maybe two doctors because they have been trained and have seen lots and lots of patients. When I want an opinion on a dog, I want the opinion of someone who has seen lots and lots of dogs. Field trials and hunt tests allow folks to see and compare more dogs in a relatively controlled, repeatable environment in one day than you could see and compare in the field in ten or even twenty days in the field. An experienced pro trainer would be another person who has seen, and evaluated a ton of different dogs.

If I had a specific medical question, say. a question regarding a funky looking mole, I probably would not ask and orthopedist or a podiatrist. If I did get an opinion from one of those, I would weigh it accordingly. If I were looking for an opinion on a preserve hunting dog, I might not ask an All Age trialer who trains and trials exclusively on wild birds, or if I did, I would weigh it accordingly as well.

The fact of the matter is that while everyone has an opinion, and BTW, is absolutely entitled to it... some folks' opinions are simply more valuable than others because they are more informed.

I will add that while I have some fairly definite ideas about field conformation and how they relate to function and abilities, I am quite probably one of the last persons you would want to ask about showring conformation.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by birddogger » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:07 pm

Not everybody thinks that what trial dogs do is performing at the highest level. You still are relying on someone elses opinion of what is great....................Cj
I have decided to stay out of this one so far, but I have to agree with this.

Charlie

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Re: Field Conformation vs Show Conformation.

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:21 pm

jetjockey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Ted, Have no idea what closed tests you are talking about but I have never seen one. And I think the point is true that the dogs with titles are the dogs that are owned by someone that spent the time and money to put the titles on them and there is no guarantee they were the best of the litter and your results pretty much agree with that. It is also why I have never found it necessary to breed to trial dogs as there are many dogs out there that are just as good but have been in someone's back yard all of their lives. We all like to make fun of the backyard breeder and talk up the need to breed to trial dogs and it just ain't so as you pointed out. Breeding to titled dogs is a good idea if you have not had the chance to see the dog in person but the ultimate choice is to spend some time behind the dog in the field and see what the dog has as well as looks like. And it might be a Fc or it might be the next door neighbors pet hunting dog.

Ezzy
Maybe. But how do you know they are just as good if they haven't gone to the line to prove it? It's one thing to say they are just as good, it's another thing to prove it. Do I believe there are many great dogs out there that never got the chance to show how great they are? Absolutely. But when hunting, your not asking the dog to perform to the highest level. Can a hunting dog handle a 1hr brace at the speed required to win a trial? Can it run in temps that stress the dog and still handle it mentally? Can it take the pressure required to become fully broke and rock solid on point, and not lose intensity? There is many other examples that a trial dog has to prove in order to win, that your regular hunting dog doesn't have to. It's a little disengenuous to say your breeding dogs just as good, without proving it. Because you simply do not know until you ask the dog to perform at the highest level. And hunting doesn't ask that of a dog.

The difference is the test I want to see is the dog hunting birds and I don't need someone else's opinion when I have the ability to judge what I want. Trials may prove the best trial dog but I want to go the next step and prove the best hunting dog.

Ezzy

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