field trial scouts

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:45 am

What is the purpose of the scout in a field trial?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:51 am

When asked, go out laterally or behind and locate the dog, come back to gallery/handler and report. There may be certain circumstances when a judge will ask the scout to handle the dog. The best scout is the scout that is never seen or heard

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:54 am

The trial concept requires a set course and a continuous forward speed - dogs on point can often and easily be left behind when there is any amount of cover. That is the most obvious reason.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:56 am

The primary purpose of a scout(single scout per dog) is to go and find a dog that is on point and out of sight of the handler and judges.

I will describe a totally legitimate use of a scout:

If a dog is to the front and dips out of sight just before it enters a large wide field with woods on either side, and, when the handler come into the field, the dog is not in view, the handler can only go to one side and look for the dog. The scout, which must remain behind the judges, can and should act as another set of eyes to canvass the opposite edge of the field, looking for the dog which may be on point. The judges and the field trial party will usually ride more or less down the middle of the field, so using a scout in this manner will afford the highest likelihood of discovering a dog, tucked into some cover... on point.

RayG

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:08 am

To ask a little more about a scout....are they allowed to "whoa" a dog? The scout can go in any direction behind the judges (like way to the left or right)? And they can't call to the dog?

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:22 am

RoostersMom wrote:To ask a little more about a scout....are they allowed to "whoa" a dog? The scout can go in any direction behind the judges (like way to the left or right)? And they can't call to the dog?

Depends on the venue - AA scouts can bring the dog back to the front. In Shooting Dog the scout is only allowed to locate and report - double handling is a DQ.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:47 am

Interesting. I always assumed the scout rode ahead like they did on wagon trains....................Cj

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:02 am

RoostersMom wrote:To ask a little more about a scout....are they allowed to "whoa" a dog? The scout can go in any direction behind the judges (like way to the left or right)? And they can't call to the dog?

A scout is never supposed to "handle" a dog, in any AF or AFTCA stake. However, if the dog is off course and moving(not on point) the scout is "expected" to round up the dog, however they can, and then heel, or otherwise direct the dog to the front. A good horse is very often a big help in "rounding up" a dog and getting it to go the way you wish it to. Horseback dogs are, or should be, trained to heel off the horse with a simple slap of the reins, a quit "heel' or a slap on the leg.

Most often the scout will then try to heel the dog off the horse to a place near the handler and judges, but off to one side and then shoot the dog forward, so that ideally it appears that the dog came back on its own and shows to the front.

That , btw, is easier said than done.

Oh and while a scout is not supposed to be in front of the judges... it happens. When it happens it then becomes the scouts job to "not get caught", because that is grounds for a DQ.

RayG

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:32 am

PntrRookie wrote:When asked, go out laterally or behind and locate the dog, come back to gallery/handler and report. There may be certain circumstances when a judge will ask the scout to handle the dog. The best scout is the scout that is never seen or heard ;)

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:39 am

can you imagine the chaos and extended time a trial would take if handlers had to go look for dogs on point? As described earlier, it is simply the scouts job to cover ground that it would not be practical to have handlers judges and galleries going in multiple directions.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:17 am

One more question. Do the handler stay with the dog or the judges in a upper level trial? Cj

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:23 am

cjhills wrote:One more question. Do the handler stay with the dog or the judges in a upper level trial? Cj

Jerry...flesh that question out a little better.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:30 am

When they find the dog behind can they carry it on their horse to near the front.

Saw it once when I was the bird planter and coming up from the far rear. ( Just kidding. I know the answer.)

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 am

cjhills wrote:One more question. Do the handler stay with the dog or the judges in a upper level trial? Cj

It does not matter what "level" the trial is at, the handlers job is to show their dog to the judges in the best possible light they can. Opinions on how to do that within the guidelines of the various trial formats will vary.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:07 am

RayGubernat wrote: A scout is never supposed to "handle" a dog, in any AF or AFTCA stake. However, if the dog is off course and moving(not on point) the scout is "expected" to round up the dog, however they can, and then heel, or otherwise direct the dog to the front.
RayG

Lots of folks believe that speeding is not really a crime unless you get caught either. If you are heeling a dog to the front in a Shooting Dog stake around these parts you better not get caught. Is it accepted practice around your parts?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:10 am

Wyndancer wrote:
cjhills wrote:One more question. Do the handler stay with the dog or the judges in a upper level trial? Cj
Jerry...flesh that question out a little better.

I guess I am not sure what you mean. If the dog is half a mile ahead is the handler galloping along trying to keep up and is are the judges doing that too. Also what kind of course do they run these trials on? A 1,000 yard dog would need a lot of ground for an hour stake wouldn't he? Just trying to get a handle on some of this. I have never seen a upper level. So, as they tell me I am ignorant as far as trials. I do not see anything wrong with that. I just don't want to stay that way. Hope I asked these questions properly so I don't irritate some people.
50 degrees up here today. Awesome................................Cj

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:30 am

[quote="cjhillsI guess I am not sure what you mean. If the dog is half a mile ahead is the handler galloping along trying to keep up and is are the judges doing that too. Also what kind of course do they run these trials on? A 1,000 yard dog would need a lot of ground for an hour stake wouldn't he? Just trying to get a handle on some of this. I have never seen a upper level. So, as they tell me I am ignorant as far as trials. I do not see anything wrong with that. I just don't want to stay that way. Hope I asked these questions properly so I don't irritate some people.
50 degrees up here today. Awesome................................Cj[/quote]

My understanding, and this from the perspective of a newish AKC handler, is that the handler is "supposed" to ride at a flat walk and stay more or less with the judges on a given course. However, I have handled in derby stakes where my bracemate had to lope the course to keep up with his dog and leave me and the judges behind.

Jim

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:39 am

CJ send me your email & I will send you some pics of the Tri Valley trial grounds here in Ohio.I would have to reduce the size to post them here & you won't get the same perspective.Most of these were taken at 18 times zoom Send it in a PM if you don't want it here.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:48 am

It is the judge's job to set the pace, and the handler's job to show the judge the dog. A handler 1/2 a mile (or considerably less) ahead of the judge's aren't showing the judges much and will probably get reeled in from said judge. The handler and the judge should ride at a comfortable pace and the dog should be showing when appropriate to the front of the course. If it is suspected that the dog is pointing out of sight then the scout is deployed to look parallel and behind only. In terms of length for a 1 hour course depending on terrain, twists and turns it will tale 4-6 miles of riding or more...

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:01 pm

cjhills wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
cjhills wrote:One more question. Do the handler stay with the dog or the judges in a upper level trial? Cj
Jerry...flesh that question out a little better.
I guess I am not sure what you mean. If the dog is half a mile ahead is the handler galloping along trying to keep up and is are the judges doing that too. Also what kind of course do they run these trials on? A 1,000 yard dog would need a lot of ground for an hour stake wouldn't he? Just trying to get a handle on some of this. I have never seen a upper level. So, as they tell me I am ignorant as far as trials. I do not see anything wrong with that. I just don't want to stay that way. Hope I asked these questions properly so I don't irritate some people.
50 degrees up here today. Awesome................................Cj

Booneville is 3500 acres, Di-Lane is 8000 acres, The Cattle Grounds in Bama is 3400 acres. Percy Priest in Nashville is about 1200 acres, and dogs run out of course. The Sand Hills in Hoffman are over 6000 acres. In tight country with lots of trees and edges you can run dogs on less acreage because you can make the course twist back and fourth which lengthens the course. Makes a small area seem much bigger. In wide open country, you need wide open courses with lots of land. Booneville and Hoffman both have 3, 1hr consecutive courses. Many areas only have 1 single 1 hour course. At Ames on the other hand, there is a morning and afternoon course, which can be ran as a total of 6, 1 hr courses. Or 2, 3hr courses like they do at the Nationals.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:07 pm

cjhills wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
cjhills wrote:One more question. Do the handler stay with the dog or the judges in a upper level trial? Cj
Jerry...flesh that question out a little better.
I guess I am not sure what you mean. If the dog is half a mile ahead is the handler galloping along trying to keep up and is are the judges doing that too. Also what kind of course do they run these trials on? A 1,000 yard dog would need a lot of ground for an hour stake wouldn't he? Just trying to get a handle on some of this. I have never seen a upper level. So, as they tell me I am ignorant as far as trials. I do not see anything wrong with that. I just don't want to stay that way. Hope I asked these questions properly so I don't irritate some people.
50 degrees up here today. Awesome................................Cj

Here are a couple of TriValley in Ohio. They were taken at the Ohio-Penn Shooting Dog Championship

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:13 pm

Cj,

If you want to learn more about trials spend some time reading over at www.thefieldtrialer.com and www.strideaway.com.

Plenty of info and participation by some folks who play the game in a big way. At the first site a good discussion of all age dogs and on the first page menu, a section with pics of grounds around the country.

Hope you enjoy them.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:36 pm

I rode with my GPS at the Nat. Chicken Championship one year. The average travel speed was 6.5 mph and the course length was 5 miles. The dogs had almost limitless room to the front and sides of the course.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:43 pm

Jerry,

If the handler is riding off, to the front, with the dog....and he gets the dog pointed up. He might have to wait a very long time for the judges to arrive, and then that doesn't even take into account the handler riding to the front dragging the bracemate with...affecting the other dog and handler. As a judge, I'm not having the handler drag me around the course...as it's the handler's job to "show" or present the dog to the judges for judgement....not my job as a judge to chase you around see that I'm able to see it.

You could go to Solon Springs and see some "upper level" dogs. They brought the US Chicken Ch back there after being gone for nearly 10 years. Will they be back this fall? Depends on the wild bird population near Trail City SD. Or you could come to the Namekagon Barrens in October and watch the Region 19 Amateur Shooting Dog Ch....held on Sharptail.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:29 pm

slistoe wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: A scout is never supposed to "handle" a dog, in any AF or AFTCA stake. However, if the dog is off course and moving(not on point) the scout is "expected" to round up the dog, however they can, and then heel, or otherwise direct the dog to the front.
RayG
Lots of folks believe that speeding is not really a crime unless you get caught either. If you are heeling a dog to the front in a Shooting Dog stake around these parts you better not get caught. Is it accepted practice around your parts?

In this type of instance, the dog was behind and out to one side. As I said, dogs are generally conditioned to heel off the horse, and are absolutely conditioned to run in front of the horse... so the scout will "try " to get the dog to go with him and, using the horse, will guide the dog forward, one way or another. Most often, as the dog and scout approach the location of the field trial party, the scout will slow up, hold back and allow the dog to respond to the handler's calls or singing. When the dog is back where it belongs, the scout will "show up" back in the gallery. it is, I believe, less about "getting caught" than it is about making it seem the dog did it on its own.

The show must go on.

Not everything that scouts do in a field trial may stand up to close scrutiny and some of what is done is flat out a violation of the rules. I truly believe the reasons for tolerating a whole lot of the shadowy scouting stuff that goes on are twofold.

First, there is the whole idea of getting away with something, which appeals to the juvenile delinquent that is buried inside most of us.

Then there is the fact that the dog that wins is, , especially in shooting dog stakes, most often the dog that, in fact, DID do it all on it's own handling kindly and responding to its handler. Experienced judges can usually tell. The lathered up scout horse back in the gallery is usually a dead giveaway. If a dog needs that kind of scouting, it will probably not be in the money anyway.

I do not do enough All Age trialing to comment with any certainty on all age scouting, but it seems to me that an all age dog that does not respond to and handle for it's handler won't usually do much better for the scout.

RayG

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:35 pm

I got my start in field trials because I could ride, we won thhe fiirst trial I ever saw.

I have ran dogs down, threw them in the saddle and galloped 2 miles to the front. We had one that would run to me and jump up on the horse. I use to carry bailing twine, called a grass string, in my saddle bags to double around the dog's collar to drag them to the front, so I could release them without dismounting, if the dog was too squirrely to hold in the saddle. I have hidden in creekbeds and thick woods, even laying the horse down to not get caught in front. I have cuut fences.. swam rivers. scaled mountains, and jumped ditches, and raced through the woods. I have put them on birds, hidden until the handler/judges passed to call point. I have ridden up their birds, if they didn't need the find to win. I have changed horses mid-brace..

Never once getting caught, but then again I can't think of a single time those extraordinary actions won. When we won, I mostly just held the horse while the handler flushed the birds.

BTW, the seldom spoken rap on the great black scouts of the old days was their show boating, drawing attention to themselves, gallloping in plain sight. They were very good and wanted others to know. But the best scouts are invisible..

It is interesting, in a sport that demands fair play. agressive scouting is accepted, even expected. Don't ge caught and don't interfered with the other dog.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:57 pm

Neil wrote:I got my start in field trials because I could ride, we won thhe fiirst trial I ever saw.

I have ran dogs down, threw them in the saddle and galloped 2 miles to the front. We had one that would run to me and jump up on the horse. I use to carry bailing twine, called a grass string, in my saddle bags to double around the dog's collar to drag them to the front, so I could release them without dismounting, if the dog was too squirrely to hold in the saddle. I have hidden in creekbeds and thick woods, even laying the horse down to not get caught in front. I have cuut fences.. swam rivers. scaled mountains, and jumped ditches, and raced through the woods. I have put them on birds, hidden until the handler/judges passed to call point. I have ridden up their birds, if they didn't need the find to win. I have changed horses mid-brace..

Never once getting caught, but then again I can't think of a single time those extraordinary actions won. When we won, I mostly just held the horse while the handler flushed the birds.

BTW, the seldom spoken rap on the great black scouts of the old days was their show boating, drawing attention to themselves, gallloping in plain sight. They were very good and wanted others to know. But the best scouts are invisible..

It is interesting, in a sport that demands fair play. agressive scouting is accepted, even expected. Don't ge caught and don't interfered with the other dog.

I get the biggest kick out of you!! You most certainly are a credit and ambassador to the sport. I especially like your philosophy which I think works well in all situations, not just field trials: "don't get caught...". I think I'll teach this to my children.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:24 pm

GH.

This is gettting close to stalking. Is it your intent to follow me from thread to thread. ridiculing, but never contributing?

And I don't care what you teach your children, I doubt they will ever see a field trial. But I do hope they never read your disrespectful posts.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:47 pm

Neil,
Personally, I think your post was great and I live in the real world. I also know your chances of winning in any dog event are much better if you don't need to do that sort of thing.................Cj

Jakezilla · Post by **Jakezilla** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:57 pm

cjhills wrote:Neil,
Personally, I think your post was great and I live in the real world. I also know your chances of winning in any dog event are much better if you don't need to do that sort of thing.................Cj

+1

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:03 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Then there is the fact that the dog that wins is, , especially in shooting dog stakes, most often the dog that, in fact, DID do it all on it's own handling kindly and responding to its handler. Experienced judges can usually tell. The lathered up scout horse back in the gallery is usually a dead giveaway. If a dog needs that kind of scouting, it will probably not be in the money anyway.
RayG

I was in a Shooting Dog stake one time where the judge made a little speech at the start reminding folks that this was a shooting dog stake and the dogs were expected to handle kindly. He finished by saying something to the effect of "If you feel you need to send your scout, send him. But understand that when you send the scout you are telling me you do not believe your dog will handle." They had three placements and no lathered horses that day.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:06 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote: I get the biggest kick out of you!! You most certainly are a credit and ambassador to the sport. I especially like your philosophy which I think works well in all situations, not just field trials: "don't get caught...". I think I'll teach this to my children.

You've missed the forest for the trees on this one.

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:49 pm

Nice thread. I just hope the "I hate field trials" crowd doesn't jump in and ruin it. I have ridden at just enough stakes to know that I have a lot to learn. Thanks to all of you who have responded with honesty and candor. I've learned a few things reading your posts. Next time I mount up, I'll pay more attention to the scouts.

I have noticed that the riding pace for the handlers, judges, and gallery at a continental breed trial seems faster than at the "pointer/setter" shooting dog stakes I've attended. I presume this is the "pushing the dogs out" thing that I've heard mentioned, or is this just an errant observation caused by not attending enough trials. If it is the norm at a continental breed trial, then are the scouting techniques also different?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:52 pm

RC,.

When I have observed the different breeds run on the same grounds, I find more of a difference in the judges and the pace they set, but in general you are probably right. The same is true with scouting. In short, some handlers will go as fast as the judges will chase them and the scouts will run amok if allowed. Inexperienced or meek judges are the ones most likelly to lose control.

Generally the courses were laid out by experienced people, so it is consistent from breed to breed, you go too fast and you run out of course. To be fair the judges can set too slow of a pace, they usually have an agenda.

The terrain can be more determinate than even the judges, if you are having bird work in open country you will use up more ground even in a slow lope to finds. In tight areas., bird work will slow you some.

It just took me three paragraphs to say it depends. A lot of help I was.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:08 am

Thanks, nice thread. Don't see any blood.........................Cj

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:45 am

Neil

I've seen the type of scouting you are talking about. I watched a scout jump off his horse and nearly tackle a dog that was comig up from behind at the rear of the gallery. He drug his horse and the dog through the nastiest thickest briars you could get a horse through, then they went through a swamp, over a small hill, and they disappeared. 10 minutes later the dog showed several hundred yards to the front looking like a million bucks. The dog ended up placing, and never came up from behind. The only time you saw the scout (besides when he tackled the dog) was when he was riding in the back of the gallery shooting the crap. A good scout is as important as a good dog, horse, and handler. That's why I never understand why people ask me to scout!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:48 am

Not only do the best scouts never interfere with the bracemate, they will sacrifice their dog for the other. When finding the bracemate on point, they will call point, stay with the dog until the other handler/scout arrives, all while watching their dog disappear over the hill.

Or after having one on the board, scout a stranger's dog with all their skill. I once won a trial after the handler was injured at the 10 minute mark and I became the substitute handler, while a dog we ran earlier was runner-up.

I know of no other sport where ethics dictates you beat yourself.

And in Open stakes we are talking financial reward as the scout gets up to 25% of the purse.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:11 pm

Thank you Neil. We have all seen or taken place in just what you described to some extent or another and while its truely a show sometimes the scout is more fun to watch than the trial.

Grouse hunter..... Those of us who understand the game will laugh about neils post and realize while it may be true and very likely happened its part of the fun and, alot of it is tongue in cheek....

Jim

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:38 pm

Neil wrote:Not only do the best scouts never interfere with the bracemate, they will sacrifice their dog for the other. When finding the bracemate on point, they will call point, stay with the dog until the other handler/scout arrives, all while watching their dog disappear over the hill.

Or after having one on the board, scout a stranger's dog with all their skill. I once won a trial after the handler was injured at the 10 minute mark and I became the substitute handler, while a dog we ran earlier was runner-up.

I know of no other sport where ethics dictates you beat yourself.

And in Open stakes we are talking financial reward as the scout gets up to 25% of the purse.

Money aside, winning the Nat. Amat. Chicken Ch carries significant prestige. I watched a handler who had a dog in strong contention to win scout for a fellow who was regarded as stiff competition but whose scout was unable to ride. He rode his horse hard and dug up the dog over a mile off, in country no other dog had been to, locked up hard on a covey. He could easily have put in a reasonable amount of effort and left the competitors dog be lost. Instead he came to the line in the following brace to handle a second dog of his own on a horse that was lathered and worn. It was an impressive display or sportsmanship but went largely unnoticed by most because it really was not unusual.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:06 pm

Slistoe people who don't trial think everyone there will cut your throat to win but the fact is most will do what ever they can to help the other dog when they can.Here is another example s friend had his dog with a handler running out west I don't remember the trial.This handler lost a dog in the brace before he was to run Joel's dog & was searching for it leaving no one to run Joel's dog so another amateur handler volunteered though he had a dog maybe 2 in that same stake.He ran my friends dog & won the stake with him giving his dog no chance to win that day & finish her FC.I have heard about how F Trialing is about the people & not the dogs but I think what I have experienced at trials proves just the opposite.
We all will cheer a dog on that is putting it on all of us yes it is competition & every body is there to win but we will applaud an outstanding performance when we see it.

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:10 am

jimbo&rooster wrote: Grouse hunter..... Those of us who understand the game will laugh about neils post and realize while it may be true and very likely happened its part of the fun and, alot of it is tongue in cheek....

Jim

I see the humor in grown men hiding with a horse and going to such extremes, but your "tongue in cheek" comment confuses me. Were the posts true or were they tongue in cheek? Its my understanding that tongue in cheek means that it shouldn't be taken literally and/or that one doesn't really mean what they are saying. Consequently, it seems to me that a statement can't be both true and tongue in cheek. I hope I am not being too technical here; I'm just trying to learn by sorting out fact from humorous fiction.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:30 am

I think at the end of the day, field trialing is a game with rules, many of which are broken and stretched to the limit. The best dog does not necessarily win. The best dog often is the dog ran in a manner contrary to the rules. That is just the way it is, not enough judges that are willing to enforce the rules because tomorrow the handler your judging today may be judging you. Not all the judges though. have to applaud the one's that enforce the rules.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:36 am

Exactly . Sometimes like winning on a "shoot out".

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:00 pm

DonF wrote:I think at the end of the day, field trialing is a game with rules, many of which are broken and stretched to the limit. The best dog does not necessarily win. The best dog often is the dog ran in a manner contrary to the rules. That is just the way it is, not enough judges that are willing to enforce the rules because tomorrow the handler your judging today may be judging you. Not all the judges though. have to applaud the one's that enforce the rules.

I have never ran in any of those trials. Are you for real, or are you imagining this because you want it to be that way?

One time I couldn't make a trial so my wife agreed to go and run the dog. She had never ridden a brace, let alone handled the dog. But the dog was rather automatic. The other handler blew his whistle and my dog was a little confused I wasn't there and started to listen to his whistle. As my wife recounted it the conversation went something like this Judge "You will need to quit using that whistle". Handler "I need to handle my dog" Judge "You need to not interfere with the other dog."

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:10 pm

DonF wrote:I think at the end of the day, field trialing is a game with rules, many of which are broken and stretched to the limit. The best dog does not necessarily win. The best dog often is the dog ran in a manner contrary to the rules. That is just the way it is, not enough judges that are willing to enforce the rules because tomorrow the handler your judging today may be judging you. Not all the judges though. have to applaud the one's that enforce the rules.

There are few rules that apply to the actual running of the dogs, and those are things about which dogs have no idea. Much of what is written are guidelines and as such are open to interpretation. Judges should abide by those few real rules of course ( a gundog must point to place, a dog 'gone' for 6 minutes is out of judgement, what caliber blank gun, stakes must be a minimum number of minutes long) but they are there to interpret the guidelines not be The Field Trial Police with the red booklet in their back pockets. If anyone has interpretations contrary to someone else's they are free to not show their dog to that judge. Their choice. And if my interpretation as a handler disagrees with the judge's, he is free to not use my dog in placements.

Of course the best dog does not always win. Most of us with trialing experience have been beat by lesser performances; we also have been handed ribbons that we wonder how we earned. Both leave us scratching our heads but we know that the best dogs will rise to the top most of the time.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:49 pm

KC,

Eveything I wrote on scouting is true. Much of it was long ago and the statue of limitations has ran, but it happened and I did it.

Also true, as I matured, learned, and quit taking such risks, we won more. I became a much better scout. Still not sure how they judged a lathered horse, but when I eased up some, the judges were not as suspicious.

Of all the things I did the most dangerous was running a horse in old timber, as the horse comes to a tree he can appear to go right and you lean that way and at the last instant the horse dodges left, leaving you hanging out. Scary.

One of the funniest. It was an AKC trial and they were running the All-Age and Gun Dog at the same time, I went after a dog that had backcasted, proudly returning him to the front. Only to have the handler say, "That is not my dog up there, must be from the Gun Dog". "Whoops" I say to myself, I take him back and while I am gone our dog returned to the front on his own. Maybe it is not that funny, but I did learn to pay more attention at break away. Oh, and the one I dognapped was already lost and out of contention before I found him.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:02 pm

Neil wrote:.......I went after a dog that had backcasted, proudly returning him to the front. Only to have the handler say, "That is not my dog up there, must be from the Gun Dog". "Whoops" I say to myself, I take him back and while I am gone our dog returned to the front on his own. Maybe it is not that funny, but I did learn to pay more attention at break away. Oh, and the one I dognapped was already lost and out of contention before I found him.

It's ok Neil....we know all those Brits look the same.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:26 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Neil wrote:.......I went after a dog that had backcasted, proudly returning him to the front. Only to have the handler say, "That is not my dog up there, must be from the Gun Dog". "Whoops" I say to myself, I take him back and while I am gone our dog returned to the front on his own. Maybe it is not that funny, but I did learn to pay more attention at break away. Oh, and the one I dognapped was already lost and out of contention before I found him.

It's ok Neil....we know all those Brits look the same.

True. I didn't even know there was an AKC collar color rule until I judged a Vizsla trial, They are not only the same color, nearly the same size, they are gaited alike.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:36 pm

Neil wrote:
True. I didn't even know there was an AKC collar color rule until I judged a Vizsla trial, They are not only the same color, nearly the same size, they are gaited alike.

I judged a puppy stake once with 11 dogs entered. 6 of them were Red Setters from the same litter being run by the Pro. I am glad it was raining that day because otherwise I wouldn't have any idea whether I watched 6 different dogs or the same dog 6 times.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:19 pm

slistoe wrote:
DonF wrote:I think at the end of the day, field trialing is a game with rules, many of which are broken and stretched to the limit. The best dog does not necessarily win. The best dog often is the dog ran in a manner contrary to the rules. That is just the way it is, not enough judges that are willing to enforce the rules because tomorrow the handler your judging today may be judging you. Not all the judges though. have to applaud the one's that enforce the rules.
I have never ran in any of those trials. Are you for real, or are you imagining this because you want it to be that way?

One time I couldn't make a trial so my wife agreed to go and run the dog. She had never ridden a brace, let alone handled the dog. But the dog was rather automatic. The other handler blew his whistle and my dog was a little confused I wasn't there and started to listen to his whistle. As my wife recounted it the conversation went something like this Judge "You will need to quit using that whistle". Handler "I need to handle my dog" Judge "You need to not interfere with the other dog."

No, I have seen all of these things. Still happening today? I don't know. I quit trialing about 1995.