What's up with that?

fuzznut
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What's up with that?

Post by fuzznut » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:04 am

Have been noticing more and more breeders and owners who don't find much use for field trials, or who openly dismiss the importance of them, touting the FCs in their breeding stocks pedigrees.

So it always makes me wonder... ok, no problem, you don't care for trials and don't see their worth, but then you advertise Joe the Stud Dog as being a son of ????? And, or, list any and all the well known successful dogs in the pedigree to help sell puppies. See it all the time and I find it a tad aggravating and disingenuous.

So, What's up with that? Why don't you tout Joe the Stud for his own endeavors and achievements?

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:31 am

Perhaps those breeders don't have what it takes to make a dog up to a FC and are just looking for an easy buck by breeding from well known dogs?

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by SCT » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:52 am

I won't make very many litters in my life, but my females will ALWAYS be bred to Champions. Sometimes it takes a lot of money for stud fees or travel but worth it in my opinion.

Steve

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by nikegundog » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:24 am

fuzznut wrote:Have been noticing more and more breeders and owners who don't find much use for field trials, or who openly dismiss the importance of them, touting the FCs in their breeding stocks pedigrees.

So it always makes me wonder... ok, no problem, you don't care for trials and don't see their worth, but then you advertise Joe the Stud Dog as being a son of ????? And, or, list any and all the well known successful dogs in the pedigree to help sell puppies. See it all the time and I find it a tad aggravating and disingenuous.

So, What's up with that? Why don't you tout Joe the Stud for his own endeavors and achievements?
If I breed two impressive labs together and by chance happen to get mostly chocolate pups, am I some sort or hypocrite if I use "chocolate litter" to sell my pups, even though I believe the color is of no substance to the dogs performance? Seems to me there is nothing disingenuous in using whats available to sell them even if you don't see it as being a redeeming quality.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:49 am

I can see the tension between questioning the relevance of field trials, but noting trial performance when trying to sell a litter.

But, for me, as a relatively uneducated consumer who doesn't have good knowledge of breeders, if I read a posting or ad about a litter from parents who are from a long line of "good hunters," I'm thinking that everyone's dog has a great nose and is the best dog ever, but I need lots more info to see if that holds up in reality. And it's hard to actually get that. I actually am considering a small upland lab as one possibility for my next dog, and may actually go with a breeder where the emphasis is just on that, small practical upland hunters with a better coat than springers, but that's because I have some context on who the breeders are, and how they actually use their dogs.

If I see trial performance in there, it helps me a lot objectively. I had no problems buying my current dog sight-unseen without ever having met the breeder. I did ask a lot of questions, and also made clear that I didn't want a trial prospect and was a foot hunter, but seeing some Guard Rail and Miller there gave context that was very helpful.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:58 am

nikegundog wrote:
fuzznut wrote:So, What's up with that? Why don't you tout Joe the Stud for his own endeavors and achievements?
If I breed two impressive labs together and by chance happen to get mostly chocolate pups, am I some sort or hypocrite if I use "chocolate litter" to sell my pups, even though I believe the color is of no substance to the dogs performance? Seems to me there is nothing disingenuous in using whats available to sell them even if you don't see it as being a redeeming quality.

Nike, while I agree with what you are saying, I cant help but feel like the OP has something going. I hear alot of folks get on here and piss and moan and talk about how FT dogs are this, or FT dogs are that and always telling those of us that do FT that the games we are playing have nothing to do with hunting or proving a hunting dog. Then like the OP said, these same people will go to sell a litter of pups and will statrt telling you about every single FC/AFC, CH, MH, or whatever titled dogs are in their pups pedigree. I don't have a problem with someone using their pedigree to sell a dog, but don't bash the competitive games, and venues, and the dogs the produce, then use them to make a buck.

Jim

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:54 am

And from my count there are as many or more trailers who do the same thing. So it becomes a moot point. people have opinions of what THEY LIKE and that does not make them bad, less informed, or stupid. So we are all starting at the same point and if we can't get past what someone else needs in a good dog we are in serious trouble.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by slistoe » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:00 am

ezzy333 wrote:And from my count there are as many or more trailers who do the same thing.
There are trialers that are decrying the usefulness and practicality of trials, declaring them not only meaningless but counterproductive and then breeding to FC sires and using the title to promote the litter?

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by codym » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:57 am

Fuzz nut I couldn't agree with you more! I'am sick of the "breeders" out there using stud dogs that are out Ch's and acting like their dog "could" accomplish everything the father or grandfather did, but didn't because the breeder didn't see a point in it or doesn't agree with the politics or whatever excuse they may have for not campaigning the dog. I've had a guy tell me that my dog that had won in af, akc, and nstra wasn't any more deserving to be bred than his dog who isn't even broke but because they share common ancestors they should be equally considered as studs. It takes a special dog to win field trials not to mention the time, money, and dedication to finish a dog. For me a ch says something for the dog, and the owner. It pisses me off when someone buys a few well bred dogs, sticks them together and calls that a breeding program, when in reality it's a puppy mill, with the only goal being to make money. I've seen puppies, I'm talking dogs under a year old being bred because there daddy was great. I've seen plenty pups out of great parents that weren't worth feeding much less breeding! Pedigrees are a great place to start but if a dog doesn't perform then in my opinion it shouldn't be bred regardless of who mommy and daddy are. Not saying that field trials are the end all be all but I think if your going to breed you should have to do more to prove your dogs than just sayin he's the best bird dog you ever saw! Sorry for the rant.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by rinker » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:15 pm

I generally agree with the other posters in this thread. I always find it interesting when I read on these threads about people breeding dogs to make money. I do not consider myself as a breeder, but I raise a litter of puppies every couple of years. I must be doing it wrong because I have lost a small fortune over the years. I really can't imagine a business model where someone could make a lot of money breeding hunting dogs.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:31 pm

+1 Rinker!! :D

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:47 pm

rinker wrote:I generally agree with the other posters in this thread. I always find it interesting when I read on these threads about people breeding dogs to make money. I do not consider myself as a breeder, but I raise a litter of puppies every couple of years. I must be doing it wrong because I have lost a small fortune over the years. I really can't imagine a business model where someone could make a lot of money breeding hunting dogs.
I think John Rex Gates may have found the money making model. He whelped a litter of 10 setter pups out of 2X Ch Shadow Oak Bo the night of the Hall of Fame inductions. They are selling for $1,500 without advertising. The cost up to weaning will not exceed $500, he is going to net $13,000.

But since he can't do it monthly for the next 20 years yourr point is well made.

On topic, I really don't have a problem with the hypocrisy of the breeders, they are just trying to sell pups.

I am not as forgiving of the hunters that slam field trial dogs in one breath and then exalt the champions in the 4 th and 5th generation on their dog.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by whatsnext » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:45 pm

Oooooo ee what's up with that, what's up with that :D

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:31 pm

rinker wrote:I generally agree with the other posters in this thread. I always find it interesting when I read on these threads about people breeding dogs to make money. I do not consider myself as a breeder, but I raise a litter of puppies every couple of years. I must be doing it wrong because I have lost a small fortune over the years. I really can't imagine a business model where someone could make a lot of money breeding hunting dogs.
Exactly. It is just good marketing.

Charlie

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by birddogger » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:42 pm

On topic, I really don't have a problem with the hypocrisy of the breeders, they are just trying to sell pups.
I doubt that the vast majority of non trialers poo poo field trials, the people involved or their dogs, as the perception may sometimes seem. And if I am correct, there is also not many non trialing breeders being hypocrits if they breed to dogs with field trial pedigrees. I know there are probably plenty of exceptions and as usual, this is JMO.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by sckwest1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:51 am

I believe a high percentage of the dogs are basically equal and that ownership\training/exposure plays a large role in the development of dogs and has a lot to do with where they are seperated. To take Cody's example of his dog that has won in akc and nstra. From reading several of Cody's post i gather that he takes dog training very serious. Now lets pay the scenario: he still takes training just as serious and is an avid hunter with no desire to trial, is the dog any better or worse because it has or has not trialed? The point i am making is that there are two sides to every story. There are plenty of serious dog men out there that have no desire to trial, doesn't mean there dogs are any less. If someone has a good proven dog and i have its littermate that hasn't been out of the kennel, i can't rightfully say my dog is as good. I could say my dog has equal potential. As far as breeding they have equal potential til proven otherwise . With that being said i would rather breed to the proven one. Hunters vary in that some cull to get the best possible and others take the dog on as a commitment and are most likely to keep him throughout his life good or not so good. Neither way is right or wrong as it is only the owner that must be happy with the dog. Trialers on the other hand must cull hard to get the best or they cant be competitive. That is why i chose to buy or breed to them unless i have seen a dog with my own eyes that i like.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:16 am

I'm pretty sure your observation is a generalization. But really, what difference does it make how a few or a number of breeders think? If a breeder has a litter you think has a pup in there that is the second coming of Snakefoot, but he thinks trials are over rated, do you care what he thinks? If he has pups and you have no interest in his litter, do you care if he dismisses trials?

But let's get real, a pup buyer that's serious about winning trials at a high level, probably isn't interested in buying pups from the people you describe, anyway. A person like you describe clearly doesn't understand which side of his bread is buttered , which means his decision making doesn't match up with a serious trialer's needs. You don't go to a burger stand to get prime rib.

In the end, it only matters what you think... I mean: what your wife thinks.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by lugmastro » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:32 am

Personally, I do not care about FT. I don't want a dog that runs so big that I have to chase him on horseback or with an ATV. That just isn't the way I hunt. In my opinion many of the FT dogs just run bigger than most people can handle or want to deal with.

My question is, how much better is the Champion dog out of a litter than any of the other dogs? Probably not that much better quality wise. But the dog has had more money, time and experience poured into him than the rest of the litter did. I get that there are good dogs, great dogs, and worthless dogs. I just believe the ability of the trainer and the time spent has more to do with Champion dogs than anything else. Trainers probably deserve the title as much if not more than the dog that it is hung on.

That being said breeders should stick to advertising based off what they are trying to sell. If you are selling big hard running trialers, by all means talk up the number of champions in your lines. If you are selling hunting dogs then show me how many master hunters you have produced. But don't tell me you are selling me a 100yd dog, and then give me a dog that I can't keep closer than 1500 yds.

The OP is 100% correct. Breeders should sell their dogs based on what there breeding program is designed to produce. Not based off a pedigree that they don't put stock into.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:35 am

For the record, I'm an owner of a dog sired by a national level CH and with three HOF CH in her lineage. But I dont trial and have only a passing interest in trials. But I see a huge benefit of trials to the hunter. Where I hunt I do want a hard charging dog capable of running big at my discretion. I don't think most modern hunting breeds would have the kind of speed, endurance, range, & scenting capabilities without the sport, even for the average hunting dog.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:22 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:+1 Rinker!! :D
You keep a cow all year. Feed her. keep a bull do vet work and whatever other expense there is. The cow has one calf. Normally it survives to be sold at about 400 to maybe 600 pounds at about $700 to $1000.
You keep the dogs all year. Go hunting with them, train and title them and do whatever else you like. Feed costs might be more. probably not. Some cost for titles and birds for training. Some vet work. Stud fees and guiding pay all the expenses. Bitch has 8 or 10 puppies You sell them for $7,000 to $10,000, which is the best profit maker? Cj
Forgot one thing. You only keep the offspring for 2 months versus 6to 8 for the calves
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by jetjockey » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:37 am

lugmastro wrote:My question is, how much better is the Champion dog out of a litter than any of the other dogs? Probably not that much better quality wise.
I think you are wrong here. There can be a huge variation. While I agree that the trainer can make the difference between average dogs, super stars are born, and then trained. That's why Pro trial trainers go through so many dogs to find the few that have the ability to compete at the top. I've also seen litters where almost very dog in the litter was a rock star, only to have a re-breeding produce a bunch of good hunting dogs, without a single trial dog in the litter.

We are hoping to breed my female Brit this spring. As of now, every puppy will go to the Pro for evaluation, and the dogs who don't cut it will be sold as hunting dogs. That way, if there is a standout in the litter, we will know, and it will stay in house. Trial Pros spend a lot of time looking at young dogs trying to find the next NFC and dog of the year.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by markj » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:37 am

Ok, here is my take. Cost of trialing keeps a lot of folks out of the game. Hunting around here never entails the use of a horse, most fields are small and unloading a horse will surely run off them wild birds.

I am leaning towards the VC type of dog for my next stud, still looking.

Or a Dual Champ like odysey has.

Dont want just a field trial champ, I want the whole package.

Flame away :) lol

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by codym » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:45 am

[quote="sckwest1"]I believe a high percentage of the dogs are basically equal and that ownership\training/exposure plays a large role in the development of dogs and has a lot to do with where they are seperated. To take Cody's example of his dog that has won in akc and nstra. From reading several of Cody's post i gather that he takes dog training very serious. Now lets pay the scenario: he still takes training just as serious and is an avid hunter with no desire to trial, is the dog any better or worse because it has or has not trialed? The point i am making is that there are two sides to every story. There are plenty of serious dog men out there that have no desire to trial, doesn't mean there dogs are any less. If someone has a good proven dog and i have its littermate that hasn't been out of the kennel, i can't rightfully say my dog is as good. I could say my dog has equal potential. As far as breeding they have equal potential til proven otherwise . With that being said i would rather breed to the proven one. Hunters vary in that some cull to get the best possible and others take the dog on as a commitment and are most likely to keep him throughout his life good or not so good. Neither way is right or wrong as it is only the owner that must be happy with the dog. Trialers on the other hand must cull hard to get the best or they cant be competitive. That is why i chose to buy or breed to them unless i have seen a dog with my own eyes that i like.[/quote]




Point taken and I agree with you that there are amazing pure hunting dogs out there. I do believe breeding potential should be considered only up to a point. I could say I had the potential to go to the nfl because my father did but never did because I never had a fair shake. Is that true? Maybe maybe not. Why do you think serious trial people will keep a whole litter to evaluate keep one and wash out the rest? Because it takes a special kind of dog to compete at a national level. My issue is with the guy breeding litters that doesn't trial and down plays the worth of field trials because they don't want to invest the time or money to campaign the dog, but it comes time to post the litter for sale, then it's all about the accomplishments of the other dogs in the pedigree. I hear a lot of talk of proven dogs, but what have they proven if not under judgment by an unbiased third party? I know this is a touchy subject but it's only my opinion and that doesn't mean much. I will leave you with this, should Michael Jordan's brother have went to the hall of fame just because of what blood line he came from? For my money I wanna see a dog prove itself in competition at the highest level before I breed to them.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:11 am

Yep,

And all 8th graders have pretty much the same potential, it is just a matter of the right teacher or coach coming along and taking an interest in one of them and we will have the next Lebran James, Obama, or Gates; or at least a Noah, Bidden, a Microsoft VP.

I would be happy with a high school starter, a city mayor or a department head, and I am more likely to find that equivalent in a litter with champions in the pedigree.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:36 am

I still like the litter announcements with the female on a checkcord. :D

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by gotpointers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:51 am

Neil wrote:Yep,

And all 8th graders have pretty much the same potential, it is just a matter of the right teacher or coach coming along and taking an interest in one of them and we will have the next Lebran James, Obama, or Gates; or at least a Noah, Bidden, a Microsoft VP.

I would be happy with a high school starter, a city mayor or a department head, and I am more likely to find that equivalent in a litter with champions in the pedigree.
I was in agreement until you mentioned Obama :D but he's definitely smart. As was Osama.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:53 am

CJ I'm glad you get $1000 a pup & sell them before they are 2 mo old & you don't consider anything else like the cost of feeding dogs all yr,kennels,any vet bills etc.You are a Business man so tell me how when you spend more then you take in you are making money? I don't breed dogs to make money if I did I wouldn't do it because I would be broke & starving.I will spend more on dog food this yr then I will take in on the 4 pups I will sell out of my last litter.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by sckwest1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:00 am

Dogs and people ats 2 different species, so a not logical comparison,

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:09 am

Not all of the same litter have the same potential. For example: my wife was #2 of 5 in her family. (Hey, I didn't say litter) She's double degreed with math and mechanical engineering and highly technical in aerospace management. #1 sis is a housewife with no technical aptitude at all and frankly, lacks common sense. #3 brother is completely non-technical in the phys ed dept at a JC and not a high achiever. #4 brother is a well regarded mechanical engineer in aerospace. #5 sis is an accountant. They all went to the same schools up thru HS.

So yes, there can be differences that are huge within a clutch.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by gotpointers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:13 am

There's trained and there's natural ability. I can train a poodle to point a lightbulb. Do you want a well trained parent or a product attained from the producer, littermate or direct offspring of a natural? Only a natural will attain the highest level of competition. Plenty of practice with the average kid will win some little league games. The freaks of nature developed in the right hands win the world series.
My money is on the brother, sister, mother or father of these freaks. I own a dog that beat 12 of the competitors at Ames this past year. And since I'm paying the feed bill my idea of how to use them is taking them hunting wild birds with friends and family. I will probably crack open a few beers after. If any potential customers have a problem with this they can go on to the next kennel. It's a passion for the dogs and not the money. If it was I'd be breeding little lap dogs that their only performance requred is to look cute, take less feed, room and are easy sells to a much easier and broader market.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:14 am

Chuck,

I hope there's no one on the wife's side who reads that post. Could make an interesting Thanksgiving dinner. :lol:

Nate

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:15 am

Elkhunter wrote:I still like the litter announcements with the female on a checkcord. :D

Those are nice, as are the pictures of the male puppies peeing, as if they are precocious champions in the making, striking a world class point. :D

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:25 am

sckwest1 wrote:Dogs and people ats 2 different species, so a not logical comparison,

I'll bet there are some lab rats that would be happy to hear that before they get today's injection of some fatal disease and then get dissected.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by gotpointers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:30 am

Lester's leeza, Whipporwill Girl, Wiggins twist n shout, Wiggins Miss Sammie to name a few don't have CH in front of their names but are the key to a great product. If I come across a littermate to one of them that sat on the couch her entire life I'd whip out my wallet in a heartbeat. I don't need a picture of her pointing a libby.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:34 am

roaniecowpony wrote:Not all of the same litter have the same potential. For example: my wife was #2 of 5 in her family. (Hey, I didn't say litter) She's double degreed with math and mechanical engineering and highly technical in aerospace management. #1 sis is a housewife with no technical aptitude at all and frankly, lacks common sense. #3 brother is completely non-technical in the phys ed dept at a JC and not a high achiever. #4 brother is a well regarded mechanical engineer in aerospace. #5 sis is an accountant. They all went to the same schools up thru HS.

So yes, there can be differences that are huge within a clutch.

Many years ago I recall reading about a retired NASA engineer getting tired of the politics at the agency and became a home delivery milkman. Handsome rascal, can't remember the town he moved to.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by mask » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:44 am

gotpointers wrote:There's trained and there's natural ability. I can train a poodle to point a lightbulb. Do you want a well trained parent or a product attained from the producer, littermate or direct offspring of a natural? Only a natural will attain the highest level of competition. Plenty of practice with the average kid will win some little league games. The freaks of nature developed in the right hands win the world series.
My money is on the brother, sister, mother or father of these freaks. I own a dog that beat 12 of the competitors at Ames this past year. And since I'm paying the feed bill my idea of how to use them is taking them hunting wild birds with friends and family. I will probably crack open a few beers after. If any potential customers have a problem with this they can go on to the next kennel. It's a passion for the dogs and not the money. If it was I'd be breeding little lap dogs that their only performance requred is to look cute, take less feed, room and are easy sells to a much easier and broader market.
Careful gotpointers you are making sense. People that actually know what they are talking bout that can walk the walk are not always appreciated. I think your post is spot on thank you for your input.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:07 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:CJ I'm glad you get $1000 a pup & sell them before they are 2 mo old & you don't consider anything else like the cost of feeding dogs all yr,kennels,any vet bills etc.You are a Business man so tell me how when you spend more then you take in you are making money? I don't breed dogs to make money if I did I wouldn't do it because I would be broke & starving.I will spend more on dog food this yr then I will take in on the 4 pups I will sell out of my last litter.
As usual. You didn't read my post. Where does it say in my post that I spend more than I take in? Stud fees and guiding pay the expenses. I don't pay a trainer I train my own. I don't pay to have somebody handle my dogs or trial entry fees. I do pay hunt test entries, usually cheaper than trial entry fees. I may need to start paying a test handler. All of my health work is done by a licensed vet. This includes shots, tail docking and dew claws. I do the worming but with my vet's guidance.
I don't breed a ton of puppies. Most ever was three litters a in a year. 60% percent are sold before the bitch is bred. Most are guide dogs on professional guides strings at high end wild bird hunting lodges. The rest are family hunting dog/pets. These are the dogs that earn their keep. They see more wild birds in a year than most peoples dogs see in there life. The clients pay for the privilege of hunting behind them and the reputation of the owner, the lodge and the breeder depends on these dogs. These dogs live in a truck or trailer 4to 6 months a year and hunt 6 to8 hours a day every 2 to 3 days for five to six months a year.
I have bought and bred many puppies to get the dogs I want.
Very few can make it in our program. We have only one dog in our kennel now that we didn't breed.
I don't breed dogs to make money but I do intend to make money on the dogs I breed. I am not ashamed of that and don't apologize to anyone for that. In fact I find it rather foolish to expect to lose money on my dogs. Getting off track again.
I don't advertise my puppies as being from field champions although we do have some shooting dog blood. .............Cj
One other point as Niel said to somebody else you seem to be stocking me..Zeppy
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:13 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Not all of the same litter have the same potential. For example: my wife was #2 of 5 in her family. (Hey, I didn't say litter) She's double degreed with math and mechanical engineering and highly technical in aerospace management. #1 sis is a housewife with no technical aptitude at all and frankly, lacks common sense. #3 brother is completely non-technical in the phys ed dept at a JC and not a high achiever. #4 brother is a well regarded mechanical engineer in aerospace. #5 sis is an accountant. They all went to the same schools up thru HS.

So yes, there can be differences that are huge within a clutch.

Many years ago I recall reading about a retired NASA engineer getting tired of the politics at the agency and became a home delivery milkman. Handsome rascal, can't remember the town he moved to.
If you knew of a dog that started as a great performer but punched out before he was physically limited, you might consider an equally talented dog that had a long career as a sire for your prodigy.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:17 pm

And I wasn't talking about you but don't tell everyone they make money breeding dogs because most DON"T!! You used my & Rinkers post to show how much money you make.I don't care if you make a million but don't tell every one else they do the same!! MR BIG IMPORTANT BUSINESS MAN!!
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:25 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:
roaniecowpony wrote:Not all of the same litter have the same potential. For example: my wife was #2 of 5 in her family. (Hey, I didn't say litter) She's double degreed with math and mechanical engineering and highly technical in aerospace management. #1 sis is a housewife with no technical aptitude at all and frankly, lacks common sense. #3 brother is completely non-technical in the phys ed dept at a JC and not a high achiever. #4 brother is a well regarded mechanical engineer in aerospace. #5 sis is an accountant. They all went to the same schools up thru HS.

So yes, there can be differences that are huge within a clutch.

Many years ago I recall reading about a retired NASA engineer getting tired of the politics at the agency and became a home delivery milkman. Handsome rascal, can't remember the town he moved to.
If you knew of a dog that started as a great performer but punched out before he was physically limited, you might consider an equally talented dog that had a long career as a sire for your prodigy.
Number one, I hope you didn't take my post to be offensive as it was an attempt at humor. Number two, you are over my head on your reply as I have no idea what you are conveying. Number three, I agree that the variation in a litter of pups can be pretty wide. I think the variation is reduced with a higher COI from line breeding but I have no stats to back it up, just observations.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by gotpointers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:04 pm

mask wrote:
gotpointers wrote:There's trained and there's natural ability. I can train a poodle to point a lightbulb. Do you want a well trained parent or a product attained from the producer, littermate or direct offspring of a natural? Only a natural will attain the highest level of competition. Plenty of practice with the average kid will win some little league games. The freaks of nature developed in the right hands win the world series.
My money is on the brother, sister, mother or father of these freaks. I own a dog that beat 12 of the competitors at Ames this past year. And since I'm paying the feed bill my idea of how to use them is taking them hunting wild birds with friends and family. I will probably crack open a few beers after. If any potential customers have a problem with this they can go on to the next kennel. It's a passion for the dogs and not the money. If it was I'd be breeding little lap dogs that their only performance requred is to look cute, take less feed, room and are easy sells to a much easier and broader market.
Careful gotpointers you are making sense. People that actually know what they are talking bout that can walk the walk are not always appreciated. I think your post is spot on thank you for your input.
Thank you Sir for your support.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Sharon » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:17 pm

Luminary Setters wrote:We have charcoal.

*** Sorry this was a PM about an upcoming field trial.
.......................

You had me worried for a minute. :)
....................................................

by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:35 am

For the record, I'm an owner of a dog sired by a national level CH and with three HOF CH in her lineage. But I dont trial and have only a passing interest in trials. But I see a huge benefit of trials to the hunter. Where I hunt I do want a hard charging dog capable of running big at my discretion. I don't think most modern hunting breeds would have the kind of speed, endurance, range, & scenting capabilities without the sport, even for the average hunting dog.

Exactly.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by markj » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:23 pm

We have charcoal.
What kind? lol

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:47 pm

Bloodlines is just part of the process. Just breeding a dog because of a pedigree is a bunch of crap in my mind.

Michael Jordan has a brother no one has ever heard of.

I know too many people that dont hunt, dont trial and dont train but they sure as heck breed their dogs. Those are the people that are a HUGE part of the problem. Just look at your local classifieds.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:57 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:And I wasn't talking about you but don't tell everyone they make money breeding dogs because most DON"T!! You used my & Rinkers post to show how much money you make.I don't care if you make a million but don't tell every one else they do the same!! MR BIG IMPORTANT BUSINESS MAN!!

No. Zeppy. I used your post to show that if it came to breeding a cow or a dog for profit I would pick the dog................

Zeppy, I think you are stalking me. Again I don't apologize.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:06 pm

:lol: So now if some one replys to a post you made calling me out it's stalking?? :lol: You think you are that important to be stalked by me,that's a joke.You and your money & business means NOTHING to me don't flatter your self!! :roll:

I posted on this thread before you ever did so I'm stalking you??????????????????????????? Sue me !!! :roll:
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by roaniecowpony » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:09 pm

Gh123
No sweat. Your humor went sailing over my head.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:26 pm

cjhills wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:And I wasn't talking about you but don't tell everyone they make money breeding dogs because most DON"T!! You used my & Rinkers post to show how much money you make.I don't care if you make a million but don't tell every one else they do the same!! MR BIG IMPORTANT BUSINESS MAN!!

No. Zeppy. I used your post to show that if it came to breeding a cow or a dog for profit I would pick the dog................

Zeppy, I think you are stalking me. Again I don't apologize.
The problem you have with your analogy is one of scale and market. No one keeps one cow with any intention of making a profit from it. They keep 250 cows (or many, many more) looking to make $300/cow profit. But whether I choose to keep 100 or 1000 cows it makes no difference in terms of the potential for profit - I will always be able to sell all the calves I produce at the same price. Now if you decide you want to do the same with dogs...... not so much.

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:14 pm

Rinker's Post said "I can not invasion a business model where Somebody could make a lot of money selling hunting dogs". You may be right. I thought of that.
I know of a breeder who breeds 25 litters a year. Their puppies sell for $1600 at 10 to 14 weeks if you wanted to buy one and got on the list now you might get one this year, probably not. Some are field champions. they do a very good job with their puppies and are one of the biggest breeders in the country.
I know how breeding any animals on paper works. I have been their an done that. But if their females average 5 puppies each if my math is correct that $200,000. For each increase of the average by one they get $40,000 dollars They do have fairly large staff and do a lot of socializing and crate train the puppies. Their vet work is done by the same is done the the same vet as mine. I am betting half of that is profit. I know things go wrong. With any livestock that is the case. If the cow loses her calf you lost a year on that cow.
I also know people breed dogs to get the puppy they want or for whatever reason. But to continue to breed and lose money is senseless and to continue to breed puppies you can't sell makes no sense no matter how good you think they are.
There are many ,many kennels who show a profit on their puppies. I have know idea why anybody has a problem with that.
If you breed good dogs that people want you can sell them at a profit. It is that simple.............................Cj

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Re: What's up with that?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:43 pm

Every body is not money hungry & 25 litters a yr sounds like a puppy mill to me but to each there own.Money means nothing to me I don't have any but I have survived 67 yrs with out it & will die with out any but NO ONE will be fighting over my inheritance when I die because I have none.I hve enjoyed my life more then most I know that don't have time to enjoy theirs because they are worried some one is trying to screw them out of a dollar.
I don't need a BIG house,new cars every yr etc etc. because I don't need to impress any one especially you MR Big Shot.

Standing around your campfire at hunting camp drinking coctails would be a lot of fun I'll bet talking about how much money you have made & are going to make but it's not my idea of a good time.

There are pro athletes that make more money in one year then you will make in your life time & look at them they are drug addicts,aklies,womanisers,murders,rapists, you name it.
All the money in the world does not make a man!!

I have stood around the campfire with men that couldn't read or write,hard working honest men that I would trust my life with I know homless men that I would rather share my time with then people like you.
I have also been to peoples houses that have or had a landing pad in their front yard for Paul Newman but they weren't all uppity I'm better then you they were people with money that didn't have to tell every one about.
A man that has to tell you how much money they make & always have to bring it up is a little man even though he thinks different.

Brag on BIG MAN!!
There use to be a couple around when I showed Dobes that sold jewelry & bragged about owning diamond minds but when it came time to pay their handler they couldn't afford it so he ended up with their dog until it died.

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