field trial question ?

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:15 pm

Dude almost every post you make is slamming FT dogs or FT. So not really that outlandish of a post IMO.[/quote]

Dude, you must have a reading comprehension problem. I'd bet 90% of every bird dog I ever owned have direct parents /grandparents from multi. Ch. FT and 100% of my retrievers had Ch or HRCH Ch up front or direct parents. My two setters are from pure coverdog champions. I'm looking to buy a pointer pup right now. You must be "missing something" and assuming too much.

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:18 pm

Elkhunter wrote:
Here is where the problem may be....the field trial community is desperate for new entries and youth, yet they don't want your untrained dog (especially) interfering with their dog and cost them a placement. They are in a quandary. They want you there, want your money, don't want to discourage you but DONT want your dog interfering with theirs.
Complete and utter CRAP... Holy cow man, stop the blatant bull chit.

What part is incorrect?

New entries?
Youth?
Entry fees?
Encourage new entrants?
Dogs not to interfere?

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:25 pm

Max2 wrote:Can anybody show up at a field trial & enter there dog ? or is it pretty formal and lot of rules & regulations that must be known before entering ? I was just curious knowing nothing about it . I remember when I got my first shorthair my breeder asked me what I intended on doing with him and was field trials in our future. My response was no that I just wanted to learn & raise a bird dog. I followed up my answer with "I am not a competitive person by nature" His response with a smile and slight laugh was for me to start trialing as he replied " you will become competitive" if I ever did try to compete it would not be for myself but for my pup . i think he would like it......

I was driving by a field trial one day, stopped and watched and said , "I'd like to do that." I did and it has been a great experience. I encourage you to go and watch and give it a try. Easier to start with a puppy event than an older dog event. Competition is a part of it like any competitive sport. I enjoy that part , although never placing initially can be "annoying".

Hunt tests are also a good place to get involved. No competition . Your dog has to perform to a written standard at different levels. Lots of great people and fun. Google "AKC hunt tests" for info on your area.

PS: birddog 1968 : I had a brace mate attack my dog once too It is very upsetting. It's the Judge's job to remove that dog from the brace. It will never probably never happen again. Don't let that turn you away from trials. I can understand why a dog would very hesitant to get out there again with another dog.

PS Grousehunter : I read your post/ frustration expressed in "Used to" thread. One only has to follow your post in this trial thread, to understand why you are frustrated. When you have your back up when you start , others put their back up , and you have a vicious circle. jmo

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:34 pm

Max2, there's a Brittany trial (open to all pointing breeds) the 1st weekend in May in Oxford, NY with some walking stakes...Hudson Valley Brittany Club. Anthracite Brittany Club's trial is the weekend of May 17th in Freeland, PA, which shouldn't be that far for you either.

There are also a bunch of trials in Windsor CT, which looks to be just under 3 hours from you. The Brittany trials there are also open to all breeds and have a walking gun dog stake (there are 3 separate trials there in March & April, plus a classic and futurity.

In addition to walking stakes, these trials usually all have a wrangler at them, so for $12 you can rent a horse and ride a brace to see what the horseback stakes are about.

Go, watch, walk or ride and talk to people. It may be for you, it may not be. But it's worth a day out in the fresh air watching dogs and bird work.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:35 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:
Here is where the problem may be....the field trial community is desperate for new entries and youth, yet they don't want your untrained dog (especially) interfering with their dog and cost them a placement. They are in a quandary. They want you there, want your money, don't want to discourage you but DONT want your dog interfering with theirs.
Complete and utter CRAP... Holy cow man, stop the blatant bull chit.
What part is incorrect?

New entries?
Youth?
Entry fees?
Encourage new entrants?
Dogs not to interfere?

The whole post basically!! We want new entrants and could care less if they have young dogs interfering with our dogs. I have personally invited numerous people to our trial, and I am loaning my horse for a few braces for new guys to see the sport. You paint everything like its this dog eat dog world and everyone is out to screw the guy next to them. Completely false. We all expect and understand in a dog interferes with our dogs, its part of the game. Never once has the crap you brought up about new guys ever been discussed in any trial conversation that I have ever been a part of.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:41 pm

Nor me. I find it totally uplifting to see how the old pros go out of their way to help newbies. George Tracy even offered to scout for this newbie once. 10 years in trials and only ONCe saw a pro jerk take advantage of a newbie. That's remarkable in my book

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:44 pm

Elkhunter wrote:
The whole post basically!! We want new entrants and could care less if they have young dogs interfering with our dogs. I have personally invited numerous people to our trial, and I am loaning my horse for a few braces for new guys to see the sport. You paint everything like its this dog eat dog world and everyone is out to screw the guy next to them. Completely false. We all expect and understand in a dog interferes with our dogs, its part of the game. Never once has the crap you brought up about new guys ever been discussed in any trial conversation that I have ever been a part of.

You have your opinions, experiences and conversations and I have mine.

My post was directed to the OP and I was trying to give MY OPINION (and I qualified it as such) why a story about a "kids dog nearly killed" a trialer's dog on point. Don't make more out of it than that.

I have re read my post. I think "desperate" and a "quandary" are too severe to have been used and I'd like to erase those words, but not the overall point I was making to the OP.

EDIT....

Here is the quote from which I reference: "Last thing you want to do is show up with a dog that is going to ruin someone else's day. I've got a couple horror stories, and I had a dog darn near killed by someone's wild dog at a trial. I could no longer run him in brace trials afterwards".

Sounds to me like I'm not the only one that was recommending: "Last thing you want to do is show up with a dog that is going to ruin someone else's day". ELKHUNTER, YOU NEED TO COOL YOUR JETS AND RELAX.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:56 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:
Here is where the problem may be....the field trial community is desperate for new entries and youth, yet they don't want your untrained dog (especially) interfering with their dog and cost them a placement. They are in a quandary. They want you there, want your money, don't want to discourage you but DONT want your dog interfering with theirs.
Complete and utter CRAP... Holy cow man, stop the blatant bull chit.
What part is incorrect?

New entries?
Youth?
Entry fees?
Encourage new entrants?
Dogs not to interfere?

Your perverse attitude and philosophy is what is absolutely wrong.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:56 pm

For the record I'm not a trialer tho I've participated some.....assumptions, what's that ole SNL quote. I made that post as an example, I would never want my dog negatively impacting anyone's day. Simple as that. No reading between lines necessary.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:13 pm

Max,

I hope you go watch a trial. I have deliberately avoided the nonsense of this thread. But I have found that most newcomers seem to enjoy themselves. If you like pointing dogs it is hard not to enjoy watching some of the best perform. You will see more dogs than others see in a lifetime of hunting.

I wish you well.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:32 pm

Max2 wrote:Holy Cats ! What have I done ? this morning while sitting having my coffee reading GDF & not wanting to hyjack another posters thread which was something to do with the up coming field trial season. I asked could anyone enter a field trial on my own thread. Came home early because of weather checked emails & saw one from GDF stating someone answered my thread. Getting a little excited as i sometimes do when I logged in there were 44 replies ! I said oh my gosh ! Started off reading & it was all good . Then what happened ? Is this what my breeder meant when he smiled and laughed and said I would become competitive ? I think I will continue chasing grouse & woodcock Thank's for the serious answers. Was just intended as a serious question. Max will be 7 yrs young on the 28th of march .

Max2 - not to worry -

The upland bird seasons are closed, for the most part and some folks have to take out their frustrations and anxiety on something. Soooo they start an argument on the internet. Nothing serious.

No matter what, I agree with Neil and encourage you to go and see a couple of AKC trials and/or tests. You will see some nice dogs, you should see some quality birdwork and with a bit of luck, see a half dozen different breeds of pointing dogs doing their thing.

It is not hunting, especially not grouse and woodcock hunting, at least not what I am used to, but it can be a great way to spend a day if you enjoy pointing dogs doing what they were put on this earth to do. Besides, since you ain't shootin' you can't miss!!

RayG

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:19 pm

When posting these threads some may not take what you say as the way it was meant to be interpreted . I call it the computer twist. In re-reading everyone's response everyone made sense. It is hard to get a point across in a couple typed sentence's . It can be taken the wrong way though most likely not intentional . I have a seven yr old dog & as Ray G has said the season's over & I read a thread about field trial season. I thought I would try & see how the field trials work . We all have a common interest here in dog's. I think I may try and make it to a field trial & probably the one in oxford .Without max of course & I won't tell him

& remember kids were all on the same team

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:17 pm

The upland bird seasons are closed, for the most part and some folks have to take out their frustrations and anxiety on something. Soooo they start an argument on the internet. Nothing serious.

Ray's right. I can't speak for most but I can speak for some, it has been a La pisseur adjusting back to domestic life once again...

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:39 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:
The whole post basically!! We want new entrants and could care less if they have young dogs interfering with our dogs. I have personally invited numerous people to our trial, and I am loaning my horse for a few braces for new guys to see the sport. You paint everything like its this dog eat dog world and everyone is out to screw the guy next to them. Completely false. We all expect and understand in a dog interferes with our dogs, its part of the game. Never once has the crap you brought up about new guys ever been discussed in any trial conversation that I have ever been a part of.

You have your opinions, experiences and conversations and I have mine.

My post was directed to the OP and I was trying to give MY OPINION (and I qualified it as such) why a story about a "kids dog nearly killed" a trialer's dog on point. Don't make more out of it than that.

I have re read my post. I think "desperate" and a "quandary" are too severe to have been used and I'd like to erase those words, but not the overall point I was making to the OP.

EDIT....

Here is the quote from which I reference: "Last thing you want to do is show up with a dog that is going to ruin someone else's day. I've got a couple horror stories, and I had a dog darn near killed by someone's wild dog at a trial. I could no longer run him in brace trials afterwards".

Sounds to me like I'm not the only one that was recommending: "Last thing you want to do is show up with a dog that is going to ruin someone else's day". ELKHUNTER, YOU NEED TO COOL YOUR JETS AND RELAX.

I am very relaxed, just get sick of reading people talk about something they know very little of is all.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:34 am

Max2 wrote:Holy Cats ! What have I done ? this morning while sitting having my coffee reading GDF & not want to hyjack another posters thread which was something to do with the up coming field trial season. I asked could anyone enter a field trial on my own thread. Came home early because of weather checked emails & saw one from GDF stating someone answered my thread. Getting a little excited as i sometimes do when I logged in there were 44 replies ! I said oh my gosh ! Started off reading & it was all good . Then what happened ? Is this what my breeder meant when he smiled and laughed and said I would become competitive ? I think I will continue chasing grouse & woodcock Thank's for the serious answers. Was just intended as a serious question. Max will be 7 yrs young on the 28th of march .

I came to the same conclusion about pretty much all "organized" competitive activities many years ago. Competition brings out the worst in enough people that it takes the fun out of it. And I was just talking about me.

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:28 am

yes competition I am sure can bring out the worst in people. I think frustration is the element. After the competition is over and people calm & relax a little & start to reflect back a lot of times they must think to themselves " well I may have been a little silly" in their thoughts & actions. If I was a young man with a young dog I think I would enter field trials but not for me. For my dog.......

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:24 am

You probably would find AKC hunt tests a better starting point. If your seven year old dog points you can pass a junior test and it will give you the opportunity to learn how to handle your dog. Hunt test require the dog to perform like you would want a well train hunting dog to perform, with much less emphasis on running. You can qualify a 50 yard dog as easily as a 300 yard dog. At the senior and Master lever you need a back and a retrieve to hand. you can generally go your own way and don't have to deal with a brace mate.
Also be aware if you run in open or would acquire a pup and run puppy or derby and get braced with a pro or a top amateur. In spite of what every one tells you about what good sports they are, they cannot afford to have a newby beat them and they know how to do what they have to take your dog out. It is simply a matter of survival.
Hunt test just work better to get experience..............Cj

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:42 am

cjhills wrote: Also be aware if you run in open or would acquire a pup and run puppy or derby and get braced with a pro or a top amateur. In spite of what every one tells you about what good sports they are, they cannot afford to have a newby beat them and they know how to do what they have to take your dog out. It is simply a matter of survival.
Hunt test just work better to get experience..............Cj

Jerry, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, even though I recall you haven't spent enough time at a AKC or AF pointing dog trial to have formulated an informed opinion. You're not entirely wrong, just 98% wrong.

You surprise me with that statement as I think of you as somebody that is a critical thinker about things, and you just missed the mark on this and it helps feed the belief held by others. It's not helpful in any way.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:04 am

I have found that nearly everyone I've met at trials has been more than willing to help newbies out. I think most people, Pros included, understand that's it's important to get new people into the sport. While Pros do want to win, they want to continue running dogs, and getting paid for, it even more. What Pros can't afford is new people failing to get into the sport while the old folks die out, and their career disappears...... I cant tell you how many times people have let me ride their horses, offered me dogs, and even free horses. I've had some of the best Pros, amateurs, and scouts give me tips to help me out, scout for me, and offer help in any way they could. I've flown out to trials, been delayed getting to the grounds, and had the judges delay the brace just so I could see my dog run. Only to find out I was running my dog. When I won, I got nothing but congratulations from the judges, the Pros I beat, and their scouts. They didn't have to do that. When I see posts like CJhills, I immediately know that they have very little experience with trials and base their beliefs mostly on what someone has told them. My brother did the same thing when the guy he used to train his dogs trashed trials. The sad thing is he has some pretty awesome dogs and he is missing out on a lot of fun, just because he listened to someone who is an idiot.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:16 am

I have had a couple of bad experiences at field trials, but I have had hundreds of great experiences at field trials. I have met a few jerks, and dozens of great new friends at field trials. The good far outweighs the bad for me.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:18 am

Most every pro views EVERY amateur as a potential client, with very few exceptions, and that crosses breeds and venues.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:20 am

cjhills wrote:You probably would find AKC hunt tests a better starting point. If your seven year old dog points you can pass a junior test and it will give you the opportunity to learn how to handle your dog. Hunt test require the dog to perform like you would want a well train hunting dog to perform, with much less emphasis on running. You can qualify a 50 yard dog as easily as a 300 yard dog. At the senior and Master lever you need a back and a retrieve to hand. you can generally go your own way and don't have to deal with a brace mate.
Also be aware if you run in open or would acquire a pup and run puppy or derby and get braced with a pro or a top amateur. In spite of what every one tells you about what good sports they are, they cannot afford to have a newby beat them and they know how to do what they have to take your dog out. It is simply a matter of survival.
Hunt test just work better to get experience..............Cj

You are correct, I think, about your AKC hunt test assessment. it can be a great place to start for the owner of an older dog that is not steady to wing, shot and fall.

In my experience you are almost totally wrong about being braced with top pros.

I am quite certain that many pros do not relish the thought of being braced with a newbie. Several TOP pros have said as much to me in conversations.

However, the reason they all stated to me was that they HAD to defer to the newbie amateur and HAD to handle their dog AROUND the amateur. They were extremely conscious of two things... First there is the fact that they would be judged very critically and expected to give the newbie amateur a whole lot of slack simply because they were the pro and Second...one never knows if that person sitting next to them will become a customer, but if you throw them under the bus at a trial, you can be pretty sure that if they do pursue field trialing... they will become someone else's customer.

I don't know what TOP pros you are talking about but the ones I am talking about are consistently in competition for American Field Purina Shooting Dog handler of the year...and pretty much any and all of the other pros who go to the same trials.

RayG

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:25 am

Ray nailed it...
...professionals do not need to do anything to do anything nefarious to beat most of us amateur handlers. The best proof of this may be to judge an AKC Open Gun Dog one day and then judge the same dogs the next day in an AGD running under their owners...sometimes the performances do not even resemble each other...

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:01 am

Wyndancer wrote:
cjhills wrote: Also be aware if you run in open or would acquire a pup and run puppy or derby and get braced with a pro or a top amateur. In spite of what every one tells you about what good sports they are, they cannot afford to have a newby beat them and they know how to do what they have to take your dog out. It is simply a matter of survival.
Hunt test just work better to get experience..............Cj
Jerry, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, even though I recall you haven't spent enough time at a AKC or AF pointing dog trial to have formulated an informed opinion. You're not entirely wrong, just 98% wrong.

You surprise me with that statement as I think of you as somebody that is a critical thinker about things, and you just missed the mark on this and it helps feed the belief held by others. It's not helpful in any way.

I have no intention of getting into some kind of cyber war with you. You obviously have much more experience and knowledge than I and I have always respected your opinion and admired your dogs. You are also entitled to your opinion. You know what they say about opinions.
I have run a few puppy and derby stakes not expecting to win but to acclimate my dogs to the horses and trial atmosphere. I have had my dog intentionally taken out by pro handlers in puppy stakes. I discussed it with judges and was told it was probably interference but it is a fine line. I realize the chances of a beginner beating a pro is unlikely. I am not a poor loser or anything else I am sure somebody will accuse me of being. But remember we have already heard what scouts do to win.
You are right I am a critical thinker. I also live in the real world. If I had my dog with a trainer who gets beat by beginners I would be looking for a new handler. Personally I think my statement is very helpful to the Op to help him realize what he may have to deal with.
I am certainly not a trial basher and you know that. I am very impressed with good dogs and like a big runner as much as anybody.
What I do have issues with is the trialers constant need to defend themselves.
People like "Jet Jockey" who feel the need to defend themselves by calling any one who disagrees an idiot or ignorant do a real disservice to field trials and all dogs. would you really won't to be braced with somebody like that if you are a beginner. Just enjoy what you do, you don't need to convince the rest of us.
You said I have a right to my opinion. Here it is: The OP would be much better off with a seven year old dog and no experience in a hunt test environment than a trial environment. Hope you are having a good day......................Cj

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:57 am

Max2 wrote:yes competition I am sure can bring out the worst in people. I think frustration is the element. . .

You're right about competition. On the other hand, I hope that doesn't deter anyone from trying. Almost everything has both good and bad involved. I just got done coaching my daughter's 5th grade basketball team, and I could tell you a few stories; however, we won't let the bad stop us from coaching/playing next season. My advice concerning any competition venue is to find the crowd that is having fun in a predominately positive way and hang out with them. Life is too short to spend a lot of time with people who are always complaining, rude, overly competitive, constantly unhappy, obnoxious, etc. Fortunately, the vast majority of people I've met at dog events have been very nice and accommodating. The others will usually leave you alone if you don't respond to them in a way that will fuel the fire of their particular gripes and attitudes.

Like others have said: go and see for yourself. Explore all the different types of trials and hunt tests if you can. Don't let your age or your dog's age stop you. I bet you'll have fun and learn something even if you never end up competing yourself. To steal from, and alter a phrase from the fishing community: a bad day with bird dogs is still better than a good day at work.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:35 pm

I was loafing along in a Derby watching a nice dog that was yoyoing, when Jim Holman, the late Hall of Fame Brittany handler hollered, "Neil, get your butt up here and help this gentlemen", turning to his bracemate's handler, "Sir, you need to let that dog go hunt, don't call him, Neil will keep him out of trouble". I scouted him a couple times and he took second. Jim told me later, "Every pro in the country is going to be after that dog, reckon I got a shot, thanks for the help". The dog became a FC and ran in the National a time or two under a different owner, with Jim on the whistle.

It is about the dogs. You say you would pull a dog if he was beaten by a new amateur, I tell you that I would pull mine if the pro didn't behave as a proper sportsman. Not saying it didn't happen, just the pro was a jerk and a poor businessman, can't see how he can last.

Out of curiosity, what did the pro do that was on the fine line of interference?

Sorry you had a bad experience, wish I had been there. I think I could have helped.

Neil

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:41 pm

cjhills wrote: I have run a few puppy and derby stakes not expecting to win but to acclimate my dogs to the horses and trial atmosphere. I have had my dog intentionally taken out by pro handlers in puppy stakes. I discussed it with judges and was told it was probably interference but it is a fine line. I realize the chances of a beginner beating a pro is unlikely......If I had my dog with a trainer who gets beat by beginners I would be looking for a new handler.

You see, here is your problem. You are projecting that somehow the pro would treat you or anyone else differently because you were a beginner. They won't. They put a dog on the ground and try to win - within the rules and parameters of the format they are playing in. Everything has a line - and most folks will play to the line. It is not your call to decide if and when that line has been crossed - it is your job as a competitor to learn where the line is. I will take your word for it that your discussion with the judges was not in the spirit of poor sportsmanship, but rather that quest for knowledge to improve as a competitor.
As for the getting beat part - I was most certainly a beginner the year I handled my dog to #1 Derby in Western Canada. Not sure how many pros he beat, but certainly a good number of very experienced and capable amateurs. Many times good dogs win in spite of their handlers. Poor dogs never win, regardless who is handling them.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:26 pm

I had a top pro talk about this kind of thing. He was talking with FT amateurs and I thought it was to give them some perspective on how to mitigate things like this thru training methods. I know little of trialling but top professionals in most sports get a lot of scrutiny. If I were an owner of a high end dog looking for a top handler, I wouldn't think one known for dirty tricks would benefit my goals.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:20 pm

cjhills wrote: I have no intention of getting into some kind of cyber war with you. You obviously have much more experience and knowledge than I and I have always respected your opinion and admired your dogs. You are also entitled to your opinion. You know what they say about opinions.
I have run a few puppy and derby stakes not expecting to win but to acclimate my dogs to the horses and trial atmosphere. I have had my dog intentionally taken out by pro handlers in puppy stakes.j

Jerry, trust me, we not going to war here. I think I recall the OP stake that you are referring to...is it the one where you believe the "pro" was whoaing your dog, on purpose to "take your dog out"? I know of handlers that use the word "YO, YO" to let the dog know when to turn or generally let them know where they are.

Sounds a lot like whoa...agree?

Also is a pro local to the area that uses the "whuup" when he sees a dog making game, quite often it has a whoa after it. So he'll go around, "Whuup, whoa...whuup, whoa." Drives the handlers and judges I know nuts....and it costs him placements. Do I think he does it on purpose to take out the other dog? No. I think he thinks he's protecting his dog from poor tame birds that cause issues when dogs are around....heck, he may not even know he's doing it, could all be subconscious.

I've been FT'ing for 20 years, and I think I can count on one hand (and have fingers to spare) the number of times I've had an issue with a pro or good amateur. (Hey, there are terrible pros out there as well, because they get paid makes them a pro, doesn't make them good) Normally if I have an issue it's with people new to the sport. I just write that off as I was in the same spot once. And it's not intentional, they just don't know any better.

Those of us that dearly love the sport of FT'ing will always come to the defense of the sport, every time. It's an instance like yours that you relay, and then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy when put on the internet. I'm not saying things like that don't happen, because they do....but they are so incredibly rare that they are a non-issue...unless it's your ox being gored on that day. I get that.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:22 pm

Not the pros fault if the amateur doesn't know the rules either. I got " taken advantage of" once by a pro because I didn't know the rule. I wouldn't have expected him to explain the procedure to me before we headed in the bush. I haven't forgotten that rule again.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:24 pm

Jerry....one more thing. It probably feels like you're getting ganged up on here. Not my intent, nor I'd be willing to bet it is the others intent either. We'll meet up at an event and we'll BS about things just like we always have.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:33 pm

cjhills wrote:People like "Jet Jockey" who feel the need to defend themselves by calling any one who disagrees an idiot or ignorant do a real disservice to field trials and all dogs. would you really won't to be braced with somebody like that if you are a beginner.

You completely missed my point. The guy who trained my brothers dogs WAS, and IS, an idiot. He was a failed trial Pro that began training hunting dogs because he couldn't compete as a trial Pro. I quickly learned about him and his reputation in the trial world. Unfortunately, my brother listened to the guy, and has missed out on a ton of fun...... In know way did I call you an idiot, or ignorant. But your opinion does come from very limited experience. I think you would find that if you trialed more, your opinion would change. I'm not sure how any Pro could take you out in a puppy brace, since most puppys are completely out of control anyways. But then again, I wasn't there. What I can tell you is that your experience is not the norm. Typically everyone is very helpful, and very accommodating. I'm still fairly new to trialing, and learn more and more every brace I watch. I love trialing, and its a lot of fun. If I want to continue doing it as I get older, I need to make sure guys like you are signing up and feel welcome to trials. And if you beat me, more power to you. Thats how you get hooked to the sport.... That's how we all got hooked. The problem arises when someone has an opinion, based on very little knowledge, that drives others away from the sport. And thats what your opinion does. Besides, your experience is with puppys and derbys. I don't know anyone who takes puppy and derby stakes very serious. Even weekend stakes are usually pretty laid back. The real competition comes into play in the Championships where there is money on the line. Your not going to spend the money to run your dog in a championship until you, and your dog are ready.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:10 pm

have run a few puppy and derby stakes not expecting to win but to acclimate my dogs to the horses and trial atmosphere. I have had my dog intentionally taken out by pro handlers in puppy stakes.

There is the root of the problem you experienced. When a dog isn't used to running with a bracemate and another handler, it can get confused with the different whistles and commands. Even with the more boisterous types, the dogs get used to tuning them out and listening to their own handlers.

It's easier if you can do some training with a partner, simulating all the extraneous noise before you pay entry fees. That way your pup isn't likely to be so distracted by another guy.

The pro is taking money from someone's paycheck to run the dog. So the pro does what he needs to do, or thinks he needs to do, in order to show the dog to advantage. So he isn't going to simply shut up and comply with your desires to the detriment of his own dog. Some pros are way classy and refined in their handling while others are more noisy and crude.

Dollars to donuts no one had any intention of taking out your dog in a relatively meaningless puppy stake, but most of us who trial can see how you got that impression. I'm sorry that it soured you on a great fun sport. Hopefully you'll attend some more and go for it again.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:58 pm

Pro's get beaten by Amateurs more then you may think. A good Amateur, with a good dog has an advantage.. he only has one dog to train and he probably knows that dog as well as he knows his wife and kids! Do the Pro's like it, probably no more or no less then being beaten by anyone else!

And while I certainly have been braced with some shady Pro's who will try dirty tricks, they are in the minority. Most all will treat a newby with respect and lend a hand if asked.

Trying to take out a dog in a puppy stake is like herding cats. Just trying to get a puppy to go where you want them to go is hard enough without trying to take out a brace mate. But I understand that it may have felt that way to you. Without the experience of watching a lot of braces and young dogs run, you may have not understood some of the nuances of the sport. We all were there once! And sometimes it feels like I am still there with the stupid things I might do to my poor dog!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:29 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Jerry....one more thing. It probably feels like you're getting ganged up on here. Not my intent, nor I'd be willing to bet it is the others intent either. We'll meet up at an event and we'll BS about things just like we always have.

Dan, I am always interested in your opinion. Even when I disagree. I also think Niel and Ray do a good job. The people who are Knowledgeable do not have to resort to Cyber bullying and name calling. You should know by now, I don't have the slightest concern about getting ganged up on and do not have any problem being the devil's advocate.
You probably see a different caliber of pros than I see. Ray talks about Purina Handler of the year. These trainers likely have all the dogs they can take on. Do we really think this is where a inexperience handler and a 7 year old dog will start.
I think it is irresponsible to recommend the Op trial this dog. In the small walking trials I go to trainers are more likely people who are getting by. They need dogs and do what they need to do to get. You miss the whole point about my puppy experience and actually it happened more than once. My dog was seventy five yards ahead off the line. It was pretty obvious to every body including the judge what was going on. I am not saying there was anything wrong. I am saying he could not afford to lose and he knew how to prevent it.
I will tell you exactly what would happen if he were to bring that dog to a walking trial in Minnesota. He would be treated very nice every body would be his friend. I am not sure if the little trials have a amateur gun dog or if he would have to go in open. As quick as is the stake was over he will be approached by a pro trainer likely as Neil said a pro because he gets paid. The conversation goes something like this. Trainer "Sir you got a nice dog there" OP"well ,thanks I was pretty happy with him today" Trainer" you will have a hard time to compete if he don't run a little bigger" OP" Yeah, well we are going to work on that" Trainer" well, it is pretty hard to put in what ain't There. Trainer " Did you see the derbies run" Op" no I'm not sure what a derby is" The trainer tells him. then tells him he just happens to have one for sale that ran that day he would have won but the judge didn't see his point or whatever. then something like he is a clown or whatever bred dog. Maybe 8 generations back. Pretty soon the OP takes the bait because this is a professional fisherman and he will sell him the pup really cheap if he can get a year of training. Pretty soon the guy is out ten or twenty grand and has a garbage dog who can't win no matter who trains.
Please don't tell me this does not happen because I've been there and don't try to convince that the trial world is all sweetness and light. It ain.t Every thing is not as it seems and all would be trainers are not good or honest As Neil has pointed out. Far better to gain some experience in the hunt test Venue first and buy a puppy or a younger dog and take his time finding a reputable trainer handler.
I will give you this Dan. You did not recommend he trial this dog. Go for it boys and girls........... Cj

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:44 pm

I have not read every post, after being a member of various forums for the last 10-12 years I have a pretty good feeling about how this thread has gone to this point.

To the original poster, I was raised with bird dogs and have never been without one for 35 years. A couple of years ago we started to get involved in trials. What I can tell you is my experiences have always been good overall, do you run in to less than friendly people? Sure, but in my opinion they are very rare. Most folks are happy to chat make folks feel welcome. I have on several occasions even received "coaching" both solicited and unsolicited from judges and fellow competitors (experienced amateurs and pros), every time it has been positive, people genuinely wanting to help and teach.

If I believed everything that I read on the internet about trials and and trialers, I would never have attended my first event. In a couple of years, I went from a pro running my dog, to handling him to his AFC myself, and now helping to organize and secretary trails for our club. You get out of it what you put in!

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:00 pm

I'm with cjhills on this one. I think the Op should try his 7 year old non broke dog in hunt test first before jumping to field trials. He said he is non competitive in nature. The hunt tests will give him & his dog some experience before he jumps to field trials. The majority of our Nebraska Brittany club started out in hunt tests(myself included) before trying field trials. I compare it to going to grade school & then going to high school---it is easier that way than going to high school and skipping grade school. The hunt tests give this person a reasonable place to start(hunt test) and work his way up if he so desires. IMO

Edit---I think I misread the dog was 7 years old, But I still think it would be better to start out smaller in hunt tests and work his way up.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:00 pm

Trust me Jerry, I know how the "game" is played regarding some pros giving "advice". I've had a pro try to get me to switch teams in a not very subtle way. One of the thing that I see that frustrates a good pro is having a dedicated owner that is stuck on a non-competitive dog, and a pro that has a competitive dog on the string without an owner.

I very seldom recommend anybody trial a dog, that's a decision they have to arrive at themselves. My job, as I see it, is to be the best ambassador to the sport, not only FT's, but the sport of purebred dogs I can be. That entails answering questions, and peeling the onion on situations such as the one/ones you've had. I don't really recall the event you were at, maybe I was there (I think I was), maybe I wasn't. Sometime in the future we can peel this onion in private.

If you've had a bad experience, and by all accounts you have, let's try to figure if there is anything that can be done to improve, maybe not your experience, but the newcomer to the sport.

Face it Jerry, you're old and set in yur ways....

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:10 pm

I am very relaxed, just get sick of reading people talk about something they know very little of is all.

Read this entire thread, wish I had the last twelve minutes of me life back (slow reader)
For the life of me Elk I have no idea why this appeals to ya...
Good luck anyhow...

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:04 pm

jetjockey wrote:
cjhills wrote:People like "Jet Jockey" who feel the need to defend themselves by calling any one who disagrees an idiot or ignorant do a real disservice to field trials and all dogs. would you really won't to be braced with somebody like that if you are a beginner.
You completely missed my point. The guy who trained my brothers dogs WAS, and IS, an idiot. He was a failed trial Pro that began training hunting dogs because he couldn't compete as a trial Pro. I quickly learned about him and his reputation in the trial world. Unfortunately, my brother listened to the guy, and has missed out on a ton of fun...... In know way did I call you an idiot, or ignorant. But your opinion does come from very limited experience. I think you would find that if you trialed more, your opinion would change. I'm not sure how any Pro could take you out in a puppy brace, since most puppys are completely out of control anyways. But then again, I wasn't there. What I can tell you is that your experience is not the norm. Typically everyone is very helpful, and very accommodating. I'm still fairly new to trialing, and learn more and more every brace I watch. I love trialing, and its a lot of fun. If I want to continue doing it as I get older, I need to make sure guys like you are signing up and feel welcome to trials. And if you beat me, more power to you. Thats how you get hooked to the sport.... That's how we all got hooked. The problem arises when someone has an opinion, based on very little knowledge, that drives others away from the sport. And thats what your opinion does. Besides, your experience is with puppys and derbys. I don't know anyone who takes puppy and derby stakes very serious. Even weekend stakes are usually pretty laid back. The real competition comes into play in the Championships where there is money on the line. Your not going to spend the money to run your dog in a championship until you, and your dog are ready.

I guess I did miss your point. Just as you are missing mine. I never in any of these posts said any thing against trials. What I am saying is you are setting the OP up to be a pigeon just as your brother was. I am not sure you really get what my opinion is. And incidentally my opinion does not come with limited experience, I have dealt with unscrupulous people for many year and I have had many trainers try to sell me dogs that I wouldn't waste their food on. If you could go to a trial where nobody knew you and intentionally screwed up your dog, you would be immediate ly approach by a trainer wanting to help. If you came up here I could tell you what their names would be.
as Niel said they are pros because somebody payed them. here is my opinion
IT is irresponsible tell the OP to trial a seven year old dog handle by a totally inexperienced handler you are setting him up to get took by a unscrupulous trainer or leave trialing for good. It would be far better to start with AKC hunt tests and gain some experience and maybe buy a pup or started dog later when he learns a bit more about whom to trust.
To everybody: don't waste your time and mine telling me all trainers are not like that. I know that he won't be dealing with all trainers............................
It does make me feel a bit better about you if you weren't calling me a idiot. It gives you a lot more credibility...........CJ.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:25 pm

I don't think we need to worry about the OP, looks like he is going to enjoy his dog just fine, without seeing a field trial.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:28 pm

deseeker wrote:I'm with cjhills on this one. I think the Op should try his 7 year old non broke dog in hunt test first before jumping to field trials. He said he is non competitive in nature. The hunt tests will give him & his dog some experience before he jumps to field trials. The majority of our Nebraska Brittany club started out in hunt tests(myself included) before trying field trials. I compare it to going to grade school & then going to high school---it is easier that way than going to high school and skipping grade school. The hunt tests give this person a reasonable place to start(hunt test) and work his way up if he so desires. IMO

Edit---I think I misread the dog was 7 years old, But I still think it would be better to start out smaller in hunt tests and work his way up.

The woman said that yesterday.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:42 pm

Things are always pretty much what you make them...

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:50 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Trust me Jerry, I know how the "game" is played regarding some pros giving "advice". I've had a pro try to get me to switch teams in a not very subtle way. One of the thing that I see that frustrates a good pro is having a dedicated owner that is stuck on a non-competitive dog, and a pro that has a competitive dog on the string without an owner.

I very seldom recommend anybody trial a dog, that's a decision they have to arrive at themselves. My job, as I see it, is to be the best ambassador to the sport, not only FT's, but the sport of purebred dogs I can be. That entails answering questions, and peeling the onion on situations such as the one/ones you've had. I don't really recall the event you were at, maybe I was there (I think I was), maybe I wasn't. Sometime in the future we can peel this onion in private.

If you've had a bad experience, and by all accounts you have, let's try to figure if there is anything that can be done to improve, maybe not your experience, but the newcomer to the sport.

Face it Jerry, you're old and set in yur ways....

I'm pretty sure you know that while the old part is true the second part definitely is not. I am pretty sure you are much more set in your ways than I. If you recall some of our conversation.
you still miss the point. I never said I had a bad experience and that is not what this is about. I had a experience if I did it again I would make sure the dog was accustomed to the shouting and whistle blowing. the pro handler did what he had to do to win. that is his business I don't have a issue with that.'
My point is that the op would be far better off starting in hunt test and gaining some experience. before trialing a 7 year old untrained dog. The experienced people who are suggesting this are setting him up for a unscrupulous trainer or after he gets kicked around a little he will quit. As he gains a bit of experience in the hunt test he will have a much better chance of deciding which way to go. AS every body has pointed out I don't have a lot of trial experience but I do have a lot of dog and life experience. Many trainers are not what they seem especially to a inexperienced owner. Jetjockey and your posts pointed that out
Hope the snow melts before your hunt tests....................CJ

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:04 am

CJ,

I am trying to understand your experience. Are you saying if the pro had not taken your dog out with borderline interference you are sure you would have won? That the pro so feared that certain humiliating event that it was worth exposing his unsportsmanship to the judges and gallery? That recognizing your dog was so good, knowing he was sure to be beat, loosing him so many clients, he couldn't even take the chance of gaining your business with proper behavior? And this all so soured you on field trials that not only do you not participate, but you advise strangers to not?

Talk about the horseshoe nail costing the kingdom, that was one significant puppy stake.

Neil

Tejas · Post by **Tejas** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:13 am

I am a field trailer, but started out as a hunt tester. I believe if Max's dog is steady to wing and shot and will retrieve, he should try hunt testing starting at the senior hunter level. If his dog is not steady to wing and shot and he does not find that important for his enjoyment, he could start at the junior hunter level.

Hunt tests are a good place to be around people who are cultivating the instincts gun dogs are bred for as are field trials. By starting at the hunt test level, Max and his dog may discover they want to try deeper water without just jumping in.

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:38 am

Tejas wrote:I am a field trailer, but started out as a hunt tester. I believe if Max's dog is steady to wing and shot and will retrieve, he should try hunt testing starting at the senior hunter level. If his dog is not steady to wing and shot and he does not find that important for his enjoyment, he could start at the junior hunter level.

Hunt tests are a good place to be around people who are cultivating the instincts gun dogs are bred for as are field trials. By starting at the hunt test level, Max and his dog may discover they want to try deeper water without just jumping in.

Max will hold point until the cows come home & Max is not steady to wing & shot But will retrieve . max is my bud & we hunt most everyday during the season. Woodcock & grouse are his game. I was just curious as to what else I could do to make his existence more pleasurable

. He hunt's with me & only me. I wondered if a dog like max could step up to this game.
For me this makes a lot of sense .
Thank You !

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:22 am

Max2.....The thread has drug on and on, I can't even recall if you said you are competitive or not. And I'm not going back and looking. Plenty of people are competitive, nothing wrong with that. The question is how does that competitive person handle loosing? Because there is way more loosing than winning going on at a FT. The difference being that at a Hunt Test, everybody can be a "winner" if your dog does the work. You train the dog up to the standard you will run against, and if you punch the scorecard, somebody will hand you a ribbon...heck, they may hand a ribbon to every dog in that test level if they all punch the card.

But, that isn't how it works at a FT. There is only one winner....and sometimes nobody wins. So you have to go to a FT with a mindset that you will do the very best you can with your dog and let the chips fall where the may. And it is very helpful to always remember that the only person your dog really needs to please is....you. If the judges also like your dog, great....you'll be in the ribbons, maybe for the blue.

I've told people that one of the biggest difference I see between a FT and a HT is, at a HT you get to bring the dog YOU like. As long as he meet or exceeds the standard, you'll pass. You want to bring a 400 yard missile? Fine, as long as he does the work. Want to bring a handy 60-80 yard dog? Fine, as long as he does the work. Conversely at a FT, you need to bring a dog that the JUDGES like...and like more than every other dog in the stake, in order to win.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:49 am

Max2 wrote:
Tejas wrote:I am a field trailer, but started out as a hunt tester. I believe if Max's dog is steady to wing and shot and will retrieve, he should try hunt testing starting at the senior hunter level. If his dog is not steady to wing and shot and he does not find that important for his enjoyment, he could start at the junior hunter level.

Hunt tests are a good place to be around people who are cultivating the instincts gun dogs are bred for as are field trials. By starting at the hunt test level, Max and his dog may discover they want to try deeper water without just jumping in.
Max will hold point until the cows come home & Max is not steady to wing & shot But will retrieve . max is my bud & we hunt most everyday during the season. Woodcock & grouse are his game. I was just curious as to what else I could do to make his existence more pleasurable . He hunt's with me & only me. I wondered if a dog like max could step up to this game.
For me this makes a lot of sense .
Thank You !

He surely could. He is exactly what my first dog was like. You should be able to train him steady. He must retrieve to hand and he must honor at the senior and master level . You also could go Junior level to gain handling experience, Junior level only needs to hunt and point a bird. You will need a blank pistol of some sort. You Will run with a brace mate. you will flush the bird and fire your blank pistol. What he does next is of no consequence un less he would run for the car. Best to not allow him to chase if you plan to step up to senior. They can learn bad habits. You should be able to get help from a local trainer at a hourly or per session rate. You need 4 passes, I think, to get a junior title and 5 each for a senior and master. Not sure of that since I only do master.
You will definitely enjoy it in a user friendly atmosphere where you and your dog can be successful. The experience will be priceless if you should decide to trial.
From somebody who has done exactly what you are doing this is your best chance. Every experience is good if you learn something from it. Good Luck ................Cj

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:08 am

Good post Jerry. 4 passes for JH.....4 for SH with a JH, 5 without a JH......5 passes for MH with a SH, 6 passes without SH.