National Championships

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3307
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

National Championships

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:52 pm

On another thread, the original question morphed into a discussion of how many NATIONAL championships were available to German shorthaired pointers.

The consensus was that 12-14 trials where the title of National Champion was conferred, was available to shorthairs.

Some folks though this was far too many National titles.

Soooo, just for fun, I did some checking.

It seems that in the AFTCA(which is theoretically open to all pointing breeds, but in effect only pointers and English Setters ever win these events)... there is a grand total of fifteen (15) NATIONAL or INTERNATIONAL Amateur championships conducted in any given year.

It seems that there are a total of twelve(12) National or International or Grand National Open championships conducted in any given year.

Sooo... there are twenty seven different National or International championships available to ...pretty much exclusively... pointers and setters.

Now, to me...THAT is a pretty large number!

Interestingly, since AFTCA and AF trials are open to all registered breeds, it is theoretically possible for GSP's to be able to compete for ALL 27 of these as well.

Yes, I currently have far too much time on my hands. It has been raining here.

RayG

User avatar
Gertie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:12 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: National Championships

Post by Gertie » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:06 pm

It could be that I'm confused but I'm pretty sure that in AF there is a big difference between a Championship trial (there are a bunch of them/year) and the National Championship trial (there is only one of them/year)? I thought that in order to even qualify to go to the one National Championship the dog needed to have a few Championship titles under it's belt.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:00 pm

I can only recall one ad that proclaimed a win of one of the AFTCA species championship as a National Champion, and he quit.

There are only two National Championship for pointer/setters that is recognized by most. The A-A at Ames and the SD, and only the one at Ames is given without a modifier.

But you do have a point. Perhaps the more National Championships the better and every breed should have 2 Hall of Fames.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3307
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: National Championships

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:05 pm

Neil -

For the AFTC(copied from the bylaws):

ARTICLE V
NATIONAL AMATEUR CHAMPIONSHIP STAKES
Section 1. This corporation shall hold each year,
(a) A National Amateur Quail Championship
(b) A National Amateur Pheasant Championship
(c) A National Amateur Invitational Championship
(d) A National Amateur Chicken Championship
(e) A National Amateur Shooting Dog Championship
(f) A National Amateur Pheasant Shooting Dog Championship
(g) A National Amateur Grouse Championship
(h) A National Amateur Chukar Championship
(i) An International Amateur Woodcock Championship
(j) National Amateur Chukar Shooting Dog Championship
(k) National Amateur Walking Shooting Dog Championship
(1) National Amateur Prairie Chicken Shooting Dog Championship
(m) National Amateur Shooting Dog Invitational Championship
(n) National Amateur Derby Championship
(o) National Amateur Shooting Dog Derby Championship

For the AF(taken from the 8/31/2013 issue - season in review):

All Age
International Pheasant
National Championship
National Chuckar
National Derby
National Free For All
National Pheasant

Shooting Dog
National Chuckar
National Pheasant
National Prarie Chicken
National Shooting Dog

Cover Dog
Grand National Grouse
Grand National Grouse and Woodcock Invitational


We should also include:

US Complete Shooting Dog National Championship
US Complete National Amateur Championship
and
NBHA National Open championship
NBHA Natonal Amateur Championship

Then there is:
National Red Setter Ch
and
Am. Brittany Club National Open Shooting Dog Ch.

to add to the Shorthair breed specific championships.

I am not saying in any way shape or form that any of these trials is the equal or equivalent of any other. Nor am I saying any one is any better or worse, more or less prestigious or anything like that.

What I am saying is that the dog that wins any one of them can rightfully and correctly be called a National or International or Grand National champion and both the handler and the owner have every right to refer to the dog as a National champion.

And while there is a bunch of them, I would strongly suspect that the dogs that have won them, were pretty much at the top of their respective game when they did. Nothing at all wrong with that.

Some folks like Nascar, some like Formula 1, some like Grand Prix, some like fuelie dragsters. Some like Football, some like baseball, some like basketball, some like soccer... some (I personally cannot fathom why) like curling. But hey even I can respect and admire the enthusiasm and obvious skill with which those competitors broom the ice.

The best of each might be different, but it is still the best of that particular bunch and that is something to be celebrated.

RayG

Middlecreek
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: National Championships

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:44 pm

Neil wrote:
There are only two National Championship for pointer/setters that is recognized by most. The A-A at Ames and the SD, and only the one at Ames is given without a modifier.

But you do have a point. Perhaps the more National Championships the better and every breed should have 2 Hall of Fames.
2 excellent points: One, the walking NC's are not recognized and are meaningless. Two, the quality of shorthairs over the last 50 years has diminished so badly because of two Hall of Fames it's a wonder people still feed them.

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: National Championships

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:02 am

;)

Brooks Carmichael
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Nebraska

Re: National Championships

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:59 am

:D

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Ray,

I think the point you are missing is the GSP National Championsips are of equal importance and value, think if there were a split in the pointer/setter world that resulted in a parallel Open All-Age National Championship to rival the one held at Ames. So when you read a stud or puppy ad that said National zChampion you would have no way of knowing which. Would that matter? It is the same with the Halls of Fame, seperate, but equal.

Then add another National Championship for English dogs only, and still another for the FDSB dogs held by Bernie and the American Field.

So you would have 4 Open National Championships, with no modifiers or distingishing terms. They would all be the National Champion of 2014.

Now you have my point.

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:15 am

Still whining huh? If you're looking at titles then you should try to know what you're talking about. Only 2 gsp's are national champions each year. Both AA stakes at Eureka and Bonneville. The rest of the stakes at those trials are not NFC titles even though most people use the term NFC generally when talking about these trials.

Do you understand now? You seem to be the only one that doesn't get it.

Doug

Brooks Carmichael
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 283
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Nebraska

Re:

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:29 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Still whining huh? If you're looking at titles then you should try to know what you're talking about. Only 2 gsp's are national champions each year. Both AA stakes at Eureka and Bonneville. The rest of the stakes at those trials are not NFC titles even though most people use the term NFC generally when talking about these trials.

Do you understand now? You seem to be the only one that doesn't get it.

Doug
+1

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:40 am

I think I understand better than those that are defending, promoting the practice of having a split as a good thing.

If I tell someone the sire of my Britt is a National Champion and in the Hall of Fame, they know which dogs he beat and where. The same if I read a puppy ad.

So throw out the All Breed, and you still have 2 Open All-Age National Champion GSPs each and every year. And as admitted many use the other titles on pedigrees as NFC.

There is a reason we no longer have the AFL and the ABA, the fans demanded that there not be a split. Pointing out a fact is not whining. It is like you guys want to keep it a secret. Why? Why the split? How does it benefit the breed?

Quailcommando
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:07 am
Location: FL

Re: National Championships

Post by Quailcommando » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:24 am

With how popular the GSP has become I think it shows how bad the other pointing breeds have missed the bus over the years.

Just like the PGA has more then one major in a year they are all huge to the ones in the game and the sponsors putting down the money.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:40 am

No, it is not like the PGA, it is like a split, so you would have Professional Golf Association and say the GANA, Golfers of North America, each with their own majors and Fedex Cup.

I know of no sport where the split was good. Look at CART and Indy Cars, it almost ruined both.

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:02 pm

Here's a question for you. When do you think this so called split took place?

Doug

Quailcommando
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:07 am
Location: FL

Re: National Championships

Post by Quailcommando » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:08 pm

It seems to be working now! Lot more events getting more people involved. You might not agree but I don't think you have a dog in this fight! Just like everything else someone on the outside looking in with a meaningless opioion.

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: National Championships

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:20 pm

Quailcommando wrote:It seems to be working now! Lot more events getting more people involved. You might not agree but I don't think you have a dog in this fight! Just like everything else someone on the outside looking in with a meaningless opioion.
+1

User avatar
northern cajun
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY

Re: National Championships

Post by northern cajun » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:05 pm

Neil wrote:No, it is not like the PGA, it is like a split, so you would have Professional Golf Association and say the GANA, Golfers of North America, each with their own majors and Fedex Cup.

I know of no sport where the split was good. Look at CART and Indy Cars, it almost ruined both.

Well the 4 majors in held are held by three organizations.

US OPEN is conducted by the US Golf association
British Open is by R&A
Masters and PGA by the PGA so it didn't hurt them.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:55 pm

Were my opinions meaningless you would feel no need to be defensive.

As for the PGA, none of the majors are called a National Championship, let alone two of them. So there is no PGA National Champion, which is why there is the Fedex Cup. So I think they are trying to correct a defect.

As for the split, I believe it was the early 50's. It was the field guys spliting from the AKC duals, so it could been a bit later. Never a good thing to split field and show, although it worked better for the GSPs than the pointers/setters, the Irish was particularly harmed.

User avatar
ChetB
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:27 pm
Location: Tyrone, PA

Re: National Championships

Post by ChetB » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:04 pm

Neil wrote:Were my opinions meaningless you would feel no need to be defensive.

As for the PGA, none of the majors are called a National Championship, let alone two of them. So there is no PGA National Champion, which is why there is the Fedex Cup. So I think they are trying to correct a defect.

As for the split, I believe it was the early 50's. It was the field guys spliting from the AKC duals, so it could been a bit later. Never a good thing to split field and show, although it worked better for the GSPs than the pointers/setters, the Irish was particularly harmed.
Absolutely agree on the Irish. The breed was perhaps irreparably harmed.

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:09 pm

If it was such a bad thing you would think that after 50 or 60 years the breed would be in shambles. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Maybe you're just a gsp guy at heart since this subject seems to matter to you. Or you just like to whine.

Doug

User avatar
northern cajun
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY

Re: National Championships

Post by northern cajun » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:13 pm

Neil wrote:Were my opinions meaningless you would feel no need to be defensive.

As for the PGA, none of the majors are called a National Championship, let alone two of them. So there is no PGA National Champion, which is why there is the Fedex Cup. So I think they are trying to correct a defect.

As for the split, I believe it was the early 50's. It was the field guys spliting from the AKC duals, so it could been a bit later. Never a good thing to split field and show, although it worked better for the GSPs than the pointers/setters, the Irish was particularly harmed.

nope just setting the record straight I don't like misinformation............

User avatar
ChetB
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:27 pm
Location: Tyrone, PA

Re:

Post by ChetB » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:18 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:If it was such a bad thing you would think that after 50 or 60 years the breed would be in shambles. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Maybe you're just a gsp guy at heart since this subject seems to matter to you. Or you just like to whine.

Doug

Not sure who you are referring to, but I'm not whining. I'm only lamenting the decline of a breed that was at one time rather special. And, yes, I am a GSP guy.

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: National Championships

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:29 pm

ChetB wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:If it was such a bad thing you would think that after 50 or 60 years the breed would be in shambles. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Maybe you're just a gsp guy at heart since this subject seems to matter to you. Or you just like to whine.

Doug

Not sure who you are referring to, but I'm not whining. I'm only lamenting the decline of a breed that was at one time rather special. And, yes, I am a GSP guy.
Nope, you're not the whiner.
Maybe that did happen with the Irish. Don't really care. This is about gsp's.

Doug

User avatar
ChetB
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:27 pm
Location: Tyrone, PA

Re: National Championships

Post by ChetB » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:34 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
ChetB wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:If it was such a bad thing you would think that after 50 or 60 years the breed would be in shambles. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

Maybe you're just a gsp guy at heart since this subject seems to matter to you. Or you just like to whine.

Doug

Not sure who you are referring to, but I'm not whining. I'm only lamenting the decline of a breed that was at one time rather special. And, yes, I am a GSP guy.
Nope, you're not the whiner.
Maybe that did happen with the Irish. Don't really care. This is about gsp's.

Doug

Doug, it's ALL about GSP's :)


Chet

Quailcommando
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:07 am
Location: FL

Re: National Championships

Post by Quailcommando » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:40 pm

Don't hate us Neil join us we have room on the bandwagon.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:43 pm

What misinformation? From some of the comments I know more of the history of the GSP than most of you, and care more about their future. I wonder how many DC GSPs there might have been without the split.

None of my comments have been about the dogs, the GSPs are great. It is the people and their egos.

There should be a dual standard that is followed. One great breed.

Quailcommando
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:07 am
Location: FL

Re: National Championships

Post by Quailcommando » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Neil wrote:What misinformation? From some of the comments I know more of the history of the GSP than most of you, and care more about their future. I wonder how many DC GSPs there might have been without the split.

None of my comments have been about the dogs, the GSPs are great. It is the people and their egos.

There should be a dual standard that is followed. One great breed.
I think you meant Neil's ego.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:07 pm

Quailcommando wrote:Don't hate us Neil join us we have room on the bandwagon.
No hate and I have been on the bandwagon longer than most all of you. I trained and hunted a GSP in 1960, they are great dogs.

DCs should be celebrated, not demeaned.

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: National Championships

Post by DGFavor » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:37 pm

Forgot how I got on the topic today...talking with someone, somewhere about last pointer national champion...something like that...anyhooo...I googled it and came across these two dogs for 2012 and wondered if anyone here knew which was the national champion because it appears they named two national champions in that year....actually, it appears in fact they name two Nat. Ch's in all the years excluding the years a setter wins one of 'em. So was the last pointer national champion Ch Connors EZ Button or NFC Flying Dutchman? Actually there might be a pointer that won the NFC in 2013 but I can't find it in the American Pointer Club site. Seems to me it would easier if there wasn't a split in the breed (or is it the people) but anyway, thanks for the info! :mrgreen:

http://www.akc.org/events/field_trials/ ... ship/2012/

http://americanfield.villagesoup.com/p/ ... hip/218591

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: National Championships

Post by Chukar12 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:49 pm

Doc...you just focus on the ABC chukar classic....that's your current issue

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:26 pm

Doc,

I do not always understand sarcasm.

But it would be much better if the pointer had not split in the 1930's. Prior to the split they would put the dogs from the National Championship on a train to compete in the Westminster Dog Show. In fact a pointer is the Westminster logo and Mary Montrose took Best of Opposite Sex after winning at Ames, amoung many other dual pointers. Although dominated by setters back then, there was a dog show at the first US field trial in Memphis, TN in 1874.

Were I not starting to sound way too much like Bounty Hunter for my comfort I would tell you why the GSP has not suffered the same fate as many other breeds after the split.

As I have been told it is not my business,

With best wishes,

Neil

User avatar
ACooper
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 3397
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma

Re: National Championships

Post by ACooper » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:43 pm

Neil wrote:There should be a dual standard that is followed. One great breed.
I agree with this.

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: National Championships

Post by DGFavor » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:33 pm

Neil wrote:Doc,

I do not always understand sarcasm.

But it would be much better if the pointer had not split in the 1930's. Prior to the split they would put the dogs from the National Championship on a train to compete in the Westminster Dog Show. In fact a pointer is the Westminster logo and Mary Montrose took Best of Opposite Sex after winning at Ames, amoung many other dual pointers. Although dominated by setters back then, there was a dog show at the first US field trial in Memphis, TN in 1874.

Were I not starting to sound way too much like Bounty Hunter for my comfort I would tell you why the GSP has not suffered the same fate as many other breeds after the split.

As I have been told it is not my business,

With best wishes,

Neil
:lol: :lol: Just my way of attempting to demonstrate, while hopefully avoiding conflict/hurt feelers/etc, that even the beloved king, the pointer, is not without "split" and multiple annual nat champs...that despite the GSP's having Nat. Ch This and Nat. Ch That every year, it is not a feature unique only to their world. :mrgreen:
Doc...you just focus on the ABC chukar classic....that's your current issue
Bought 4 new horses, thoroughbreds, straight off the race track - doing 4 workouts a week with them, 2 speed and 2 hill repeat workouts...gonna stake one out at the end of each course. Should be ready. :wink:

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: National Championships

Post by Chukar12 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:51 pm

Each end of the course...like the whole hour!? ... Wishful thinking... It will be nice to meet outside of cyber space

User avatar
DGFavor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1949
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:55 am
Location: Pocatello, ID

Re: National Championships

Post by DGFavor » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:58 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Each end of the course...like the whole hour!? ... Wishful thinking... It will be nice to meet outside of cyber space
Dang it, I knew it...shoulda bought two more. Lookin' forward to it!! In case you'all need to plan, I wear XL in tar, but, curiously am only a large in feathers.

User avatar
northern cajun
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY

Re: National Championships

Post by northern cajun » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:05 am

ACooper wrote:
Neil wrote:There should be a dual standard that is followed. One great breed.
I agree with this.


you think we should have two standards Andy?

trueblu
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:33 am
Location: North Texas

Re: National Championships

Post by trueblu » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:40 am

Neil, what about the need for a split in the Brittany? The beauty of the GSP is that we acknowledge the split. We don't take show dogs, run them with a bunch of other "no goers" and call them all age dogs. A show dog might finish as a field champion in shorthairs if run enough. 99% have no shot in both arenas. Brits are nearly guaranteed to become duals. Go to a bunch of Brit trials and a bunch of GSP trials. An all age Brittany couldn't compete in most gun dog GSP stakes. Out of 50 Brits in an all age stake, you might have 5 that run enough to be considered all age. Only 1 or 2 are more or less all age dogs. But, I bet a bunch are show champions. Then take a show champion shorthair and run him in an all age stake, he gets demolished. Out of 50 shorthairs in an all age stake, many will run like fools but at least they run. Few, if any, are show champions. If other breeds would just admit the split, they'd be light years ahead. 'Course, take most all age shorthairs to the prairies and very few will be all age dogs even comparable to all age pointers.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:10 am

trueblu wrote:Neil, what about the need for a split in the Brittany? The beauty of the GSP is that we acknowledge the split. We don't take show dogs, run them with a bunch of other "no goers" and call them all age dogs. A show dog might finish as a field champion in shorthairs if run enough. 99% have no shot in both arenas. Brits are nearly guaranteed to become duals. Go to a bunch of Brit trials and a bunch of GSP trials. An all age Brittany couldn't compete in most gun dog GSP stakes. Out of 50 Brits in an all age stake, you might have 5 that run enough to be considered all age. Only 1 or 2 are more or less all age dogs. But, I bet a bunch are show champions. Then take a show champion shorthair and run him in an all age stake, he gets demolished. Out of 50 shorthairs in an all age stake, many will run like fools but at least they run. Few, if any, are show champions. If other breeds would just admit the split, they'd be light years ahead. 'Course, take most all age shorthairs to the prairies and very few will be all age dogs even comparable to all age pointers.
You need to get out more. There are sure no guarantees on finishing any dog in the show or field. GSP are great dogs no doubt, but we have had a good number Britts that could run with them in All-Age, including National Champion, Dual Champion A Touch of Bourbon. Your post is such nonsense it is not even the insult you intended. Putting down one breed does not raise another.

trueblu
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:33 am
Location: North Texas

Re: National Championships

Post by trueblu » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:43 am

You're probably right Neil, judging hundreds and hundreds of both breeds doesn't give me a right to an opinion. Not sure where I need to "get out" to see these dogs. I've judged and ridden Brit hour all age championships, judged and ridden many many brit all age stakes, run all age shorthairs, judged them, ridden too many all age stakes to count, been to nationals and competed and ridden thousands of braces. Just let me know where I should go to see these magic brits!

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:27 am

trueblu wrote:You're probably right Neil, judging hundreds and hundreds of both breeds doesn't give me a right to an opinion. Not sure where I need to "get out" to see these dogs. I've judged and ridden Brit hour all age championships, judged and ridden many many brit all age stakes, run all age shorthairs, judged them, ridden too many all age stakes to count, been to nationals and competed and ridden thousands of braces. Just let me know where I should go to see these magic brits!
Since I don't know your name I can't verify which All-Age Britts you have seen that would not be competitive with a GSP Gun Dog, or where you judged them. But knowing the Britt standard requries them to be 5 inches shorter and 15 - 20 pounds smaller gives the GSP a bit of an edge. Not that you seem interested in following the standard.

However I have not promoted the Britt in any of my posts, so please get back to the GSP.

And being a gentleman I will not tell you where you can go.

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:29 pm

Lol pure grace , good Lord !

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: National Championships

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:39 pm

trueblu wrote:Neil, what about the need for a split in the Brittany? The beauty of the GSP is that we acknowledge the split. We don't take show dogs, run them with a bunch of other "no goers" and call them all age dogs. A show dog might finish as a field champion in shorthairs if run enough. 99% have no shot in both arenas. Brits are nearly guaranteed to become duals. Go to a bunch of Brit trials and a bunch of GSP trials. An all age Brittany couldn't compete in most gun dog GSP stakes. Out of 50 Brits in an all age stake, you might have 5 that run enough to be considered all age. Only 1 or 2 are more or less all age dogs. But, I bet a bunch are show champions. Then take a show champion shorthair and run him in an all age stake, he gets demolished. Out of 50 shorthairs in an all age stake, many will run like fools but at least they run. Few, if any, are show champions. If other breeds would just admit the split, they'd be light years ahead. 'Course, take most all age shorthairs to the prairies and very few will be all age dogs even comparable to all age pointers.
Did you ever think that the field standard for a pointer has little to do with a GSP or a Brit. Once we forget what pointers are doing and concentrate on what our breeds are supposed to do we can work on improving our breeds and stop trying to make them pointers. I love pointers and if I want a dog to hunt like a pointer I would have a pointer. And when I own a GSP or a Brit I want them to hunt like their breed is supposed to. Pray tell, what is the advantage of the dog that runs faster? Maybe we should concentrate on the dog that finds birds, can turn quicker, and is bred to retrieve and be a nice calm house dog and family pet. For most people those are the characteristics they want in a dog. I think over all most breeds can do just that but would probably be even better at it if we actually bred for it. How fast they can run makes for a great game when played on a track. How well they hunt is a great game played in the upland fields. But we do not need 10 breeds that all hunt alike, hence, different breeds.

Ezzy

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: National Championships

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Maybe we should concentrate on the dog that finds birds, can turn quicker, and is bred to retrieve and be a nice calm house dog and family pet. For most people those are the characteristics they want in a dog.

Ezzy
First off I agree with you Ezzy, but what you describe is all the pointers I've ever owned, except maybe 2, but there are rebels in all breeds.

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: National Championships

Post by JKP » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:17 pm

Once we forget what pointers are doing and concentrate on what our breeds are supposed to do we can work on improving our breeds and stop trying to make them pointers.
IMO....Pointers have at the same time been a great influence on other breeds and a horrible influence. They are an important foundation breed for many others...that's the positive. But then they have also influenced those other breeds often to emulate the Pointer...and that is the negative. When folks stop trying to copy the Pointer,,,and stop making apologies for doing so....it all ends.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: National Championships

Post by birddogger » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:50 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
trueblu wrote:Neil, what about the need for a split in the Brittany? The beauty of the GSP is that we acknowledge the split. We don't take show dogs, run them with a bunch of other "no goers" and call them all age dogs. A show dog might finish as a field champion in shorthairs if run enough. 99% have no shot in both arenas. Brits are nearly guaranteed to become duals. Go to a bunch of Brit trials and a bunch of GSP trials. An all age Brittany couldn't compete in most gun dog GSP stakes. Out of 50 Brits in an all age stake, you might have 5 that run enough to be considered all age. Only 1 or 2 are more or less all age dogs. But, I bet a bunch are show champions. Then take a show champion shorthair and run him in an all age stake, he gets demolished. Out of 50 shorthairs in an all age stake, many will run like fools but at least they run. Few, if any, are show champions. If other breeds would just admit the split, they'd be light years ahead. 'Course, take most all age shorthairs to the prairies and very few will be all age dogs even comparable to all age pointers.
Did you ever think that the field standard for a pointer has little to do with a GSP or a Brit. Once we forget what pointers are doing and concentrate on what our breeds are supposed to do we can work on improving our breeds and stop trying to make them pointers. I love pointers and if I want a dog to hunt like a pointer I would have a pointer. And when I own a GSP or a Brit I want them to hunt like their breed is supposed to. Pray tell, what is the advantage of the dog that runs faster? Maybe we should concentrate on the dog that finds birds, can turn quicker, and is bred to retrieve and be a nice calm house dog and family pet. For most people those are the characteristics they want in a dog. I think over all most breeds can do just that but would probably be even better at it if we actually bred for it. How fast they can run makes for a great game when played on a track. How well they hunt is a great game played in the upland fields. But we do not need 10 breeds that all hunt alike, hence, different breeds.

Ezzy
I agree completely! I ran pointers when I was younger and had huge areas too hunt. They fit what I wanted at that time. I run GSP's now because they fit what I want now days. I still love'm all and glad we have the different breeds to choose from.

Charlie

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: National Championships

Post by birddogger » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:51 pm

JKP wrote:
Once we forget what pointers are doing and concentrate on what our breeds are supposed to do we can work on improving our breeds and stop trying to make them pointers.
IMO....Pointers have at the same time been a great influence on other breeds and a horrible influence. They are an important foundation breed for many others...that's the positive. But then they have also influenced those other breeds often to emulate the Pointer...and that is the negative. When folks stop trying to copy the Pointer,,,and stop making apologies for doing so....it all ends.
What biased and total nonsense!!

Charlie

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: National Championships

Post by Neil » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:26 pm

I think we should start a thread on the pointer/setter field trial standard, or it should be the setter/pointer, because the setters dominated for the first 40 years or so.

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: National Championships

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:40 pm

We can argue temperament, venue, and individual dogs until the cows come home...if you ask me the difference in pointers and setters at the top levels and other breeds is not speed and distance as much as it is bottom and endurance at the extreme of practical application. There are fair arguments about retrieving and other matters of preference as well...but all sporting dogs can and have adapted well to an evening on the couch. As for the titles....I dunno, who cares really...your title, your anything really shouldn't dilute or elevate me , mine or what I value.

jetjockey
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 523
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:48 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: National Championships

Post by jetjockey » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Did you ever think that the field standard for a pointer has little to do with a GSP or a Brit. Once we forget what pointers are doing and concentrate on what our breeds are supposed to do we can work on improving our breeds and stop trying to make them pointers. I love pointers and if I want a dog to hunt like a pointer I would have a pointer. And when I own a GSP or a Brit I want them to hunt like their breed is supposed to.

Help me out here, because I googled it and can't find it. How is a brittany "suppose" to hunt?

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: National Championships

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:00 pm

Brittanys throughout their history have been bred as a close working ,quick, agile, and a biddable and responsive dog used by peasants when poaching the King's game. Their physical built makes them very well suited for that type of hunting but they were not built to be big fluid runners with their short coupled, cobby type body. After they were imported to this country where we had more ground to cover and our extreme desire for our dogs to be more stylish, we have seen the dogs become a little more aggressive in their demeanor which has translated into more style in the field. And at the same time we have tended to take some of the coat off of them, slim the body somewhat and encouraged them to run and hunt in a more reaching approach to our bigger spaces. We now see the Brittany that is currently being imported look and act much like our dogs did 60 and 70 years ago. More coat, smaller in size, and probably a little more inclined to hunt closer with that softer personality that seems to describe the Brits in Europe.

Ezzy

Locked