Well bred V Well trained

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Soarer31
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Well bred V Well trained

Post by Soarer31 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:41 pm

I always pondered about this
When growing up in the old country, hunting was a way of life , it was to put food on the table but I can never recall my old man or my grand dad ever training their dogs, part from some rudimentary obedience

Now , training has become a profession , get a dog , send it to the pro and he will fix almost anything. The pro has all the tools and the expertise to gloss over most any undesirable trait

So are we breeding the best with the best? or the best trained with the best trained? Well bred dogs with loads of natural ability can easily be overlooked

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I hear you say!
Me recons you can come pretty close

Cheers

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Karen » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:03 pm

The saying that every dog has his day is pretty true, but every dog does not have LOTS of days. The ones that win...and win...and win. THOSE are the really special ones. Well bred AND well trained.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Sharon » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:18 pm

very well said

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Del Lolo » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:33 pm

Good dogs are born.
Great dogs are good dogs that are trained.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Soarer31 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:38 pm

Karen wrote:The saying that every dog has his day is pretty true, but every dog does not have LOTS of days. The ones that win...and win...and win. THOSE are the really special ones. Well bred AND well trained.
A dog with a a hard mouth (concealed by FF ) can win ... And win ,,, and win
A dog with no natural retrieving ability can win...and win...and win
And so on....

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:28 am

.........."Breed for the best, train for the rest."

Bill T.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by crackerd » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:33 am

Soarer31 wrote:
Karen wrote:The saying that every dog has his day is pretty true, but every dog does not have LOTS of days. The ones that win...and win...and win. THOSE are the really special ones. Well bred AND well trained.
A dog with a a hard mouth (concealed by FF ) can win ... And win ,,, and win
A dog with no natural retrieving ability can win...and win...and win
And so on....
Sounds like you were dandled on Daddy Milner's knee and read beddy-bye propaganda that's stayed with you for a lifetime...

MG

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by bonasa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:43 am

A sticky sickle tailed choppy gaited biddable dog that retrieves isn't anything amazing to watch.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:37 am

Soarer31 wrote:
Karen wrote:The saying that every dog has his day is pretty true, but every dog does not have LOTS of days. The ones that win...and win...and win. THOSE are the really special ones. Well bred AND well trained.
A dog with a a hard mouth (concealed by FF ) can win ... And win ,,, and win
A dog with no natural retrieving ability can win...and win...and win
And so on....

Soarer -

I run pointers.... I hunt pointers.... Always have...always will. The retrieve has always been a very minor consideration.

I'll put it more bluntly. I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.... Never have...never will. I figure if I shoot straight, the bird will fall dead. The day I can't go to it, bend over and pick it up myself is the day I need to quit hunting.

Pointers have been bred and selected for field trials for over a hundred years. For most of that time, the retrieve was not considered as a selection criterion at all. In fact, many trial bred pointers have, over the years, been actively discouraged from retrieving. I know, I had one that was.

The really funny thing is this... over the last fifty five years I have not owned or hunted behind a pointer that would not retrieve and most all of my pointers have been heavily trial bred. How does that happen???

If a world class retrieve is what floats your boat...GET A LAB for crying out loud. That IS what they do. That IS what they have been bred for and trained for.

If you want a powerful ground application and stunning style on point, get a pointer or a setter. That IS what they have been bred and trained for.

If you want a versatile dog that is truly versatile, you need to recognize that they will do a lot of things pretty well, but may not do anything truly excellently. THAT is in the nature of versatility. You need to recognize that if you focus your efforts on producing a dog with a the highest levels of a limited skill set, some other skills will, of necessity, be given less consideration in the development of the line.

It is unrealistic to expect the highest level of performance in EVERY aspect of a versatile dog's repertoire.

For example, if you get a shorthair from out West that has been bred to hunt out West...it is probably going to have a fairly big ground application, because that is what is needed out there. It may not have the world class perfect retrieve you may be looking for because the dog's primary mission has been to cover lots of ground in search of game and to find and point that game. The retrieve may well be a secondary consideration.

If a world class retrieve is the primary skill you want in your versatile dog...I suggest you select dogs that have been bred with that in mind or breed them yourself. If you breed what YOU want and train for what YOU want, you will have what YOU want. Otherwise, you might just have to settle for what someone else wants.


RayG

PS -

One last comment which I neglected to mention: IMO, a VERY significant part of a dog being well bred...especially today... is its ability to TAKE training, handle pressure and be able to be developed to a high level of performance. Thus...well bred and well trained should go hand in glove if it is done right.
Last edited by RayGubernat on Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Steve007 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:42 am

Soarer31 wrote:I always pondered about this
When growing up in the old country, hunting was a way of life , it was to put food on the table but I can never recall my old man or my grand dad ever training their dogs, part from some rudimentary obedience

Now , training has become a profession , get a dog , send it to the pro and he will fix almost anything. The pro has all the tools and the expertise to gloss over most any undesirable trait
Are you referencing field trials or hunting pursuts? Field trlals have always had professionals. Most people live in suburbia now, have full-time "city" jobs, and do not have ready access to the birds or land your grandparents had. But they still want to hunt --possibly on preserves-- with a decently-trained dog.So they send their dog to a pro to do what they don't have the time, facilities or expertise to do. And many -- perhaps most -- dogs are house dogs these days. You're not going to get rid of him. If he has hunting flaws, you get them fixed and live happily ever after. What's wrong with that?

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by JKP » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:02 am

I'll put it more bluntly. I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.... Never have...never will.
Boy...that plays right in the "wheelhouse" of the Antis and Greenies...hunters that don't give a rat's patoot about recovering game.

Fact is, you can have a heck of a dog that isn't a multiple major trial winner. Find a breeder that has expectations....you won't have to train much to have an enjoyable dog.
The purists on this list need to get in touch with the real world.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Del Lolo » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:17 am

RayGubernat wrote: I run pointers.... I hunt pointers.... Always have...always will. The retrieve has always been a very minor consideration.

I'll put it more bluntly. I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.... Never have...never will. I figure if I shoot straight, the bird will fall dead. The day I can't go to it, bend over and pick it up myself is the day I need to quit hunting.


RayG
How about that Rooster that ends up in a field ---- across a river or big armpit deep creek ?

.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by bonasa » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:39 am

In the event the bird doesn't crumple , the dog will point dead. If u pick and choose your shots and care more about dog work there won't be winged birds. To many times following up with a dog to point dead will lead a dog to anticipate this and follow up with all birds missed or winged.

How far are these birds shot at initially that end up in a field over or in a creek way to the right?

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:15 pm

Del Lolo wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: I run pointers.... I hunt pointers.... Always have...always will. The retrieve has always been a very minor consideration.

I'll put it more bluntly. I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.... Never have...never will. I figure if I shoot straight, the bird will fall dead. The day I can't go to it, bend over and pick it up myself is the day I need to quit hunting.


RayG
How about that Rooster that ends up in a field ---- across a river or big armpit deep creek ?

.

I do not generally hunt in places like that. Never did, so it was not much of an issue.

In my younger...hungrier... days, if I thought the bird was going to get away, a well aimed load of sixes could make for an easy retrieve. Pheasants do not go very far with no head. These days, I am just as happy to fire a salute and keep on walking, especially if it s far from the truck. Pheasants get heavy. Anymore, I am not so upset if I do not have anything to gut or pick or skin at the end of the day. Chicken is just fine, thank you.

If a bird did happen to fly across a river or wide stream and die on the other side, I would go...get in my car...drive around...ask permission to go get the bird and then do just that with the dog on a lead and without the gun. If a bird died in aan armpit deep stream, I would just follow it along until the bird washed up on shore as it will eventually.

Actually your armpit deep stream scenario reminded me of a funny story. My first dog was a dropper who hated water. He would not swim...period. He would retrieve just fine on dry land, but would not cross water. Anyhow, one fine winter day I was hunting alongside the South Branch of the Raritan River. The Raritan ain't much of a river and is basically a wide stream where I was hunting. Anyhow... rooster got up and I shot. It fell into the middle of the stream. The bird was gently going downstream. The dog was following along, watching it intently and whining...from the stream bank. After a couple of minutes the bird started to flap furiously...its death throes. Well Ol' Jack could not handle that. He flat out lost his cool. The next thing I know he comes flying off a hummock and dives into the ice cold water. He swims out, snags the bird and brings it back to me. I can still see the look in his eyes and the expression on his face. It was somewhere between annoyance, disgust and indignation. Of course, he waited to shake himself off until he had spit the bird out right at my feet. Didn't see that one coming. Lovely.

I do honestly thank you for reminding me. Jack was a special dog to me. He has been gone forty years and I still miss him. We had us some good times together. Good memories.

RayG

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:57 pm

JKP wrote:
I'll put it more bluntly. I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.... Never have...never will.
Boy...that plays right in the "wheelhouse" of the Antis and Greenies...hunters that don't give a rat's patoot about recovering game.

Fact is, you can have a heck of a dog that isn't a multiple major trial winner. Find a breeder that has expectations....you won't have to train much to have an enjoyable dog.
The purists on this list need to get in touch with the real world.

JKP -

You really do need to read what people actually write.

I said: I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.

That says NOTHING about recovering game. YOU made that gigantic leap of non-logic...not I.

My bird dogs hunt dead with the best of them. Why? Because I insist on it. I absolutely do not tolerate wasting game and will spend a half hour or more searching for a single downed quail. My dogs know I do not leave an area where a bird is down...until the bird is recovered or it is hopeless. You know that as well... because I have said as much to you in previous posts on the same subject.

and yes...the dogs I trial with are trained to hunt dead as well as the dogs I hunt with...because they are one and the same dogs. I think you know that too.

RayG

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by ultracarry » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:59 pm

Can everyone just agree not to respond to JKP ? Will solve a lot of very long winded threads.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Soarer31 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:54 pm

crackerd wrote:
Soarer31 wrote:
Karen wrote:The saying that every dog has his day is pretty true, but every dog does not have LOTS of days. The ones that win...and win...and win. THOSE are the really special ones. Well bred AND well trained.
A dog with a a hard mouth (concealed by FF ) can win ... And win ,,, and win
A dog with no natural retrieving ability can win...and win...and win
And so on....
Sounds like you were dandled on Daddy Milner's knee and read beddy-bye propaganda that's stayed with you for a lifetime...

MG
????,,,, ill let that one go to the catcher

I'm basically talking more about hunting here ,
It seems that nowadays you practicaly have to be a pro trainer to have a half descent hunting dog
The way I see it , if you can find a "well bred" hunting dog the less training is required and you wouldn't have the need to resort to a pro to fix problems that could of been prevented in the breeding

My old man used have setters and harehounds , I can remember once he a had a problem with one of his setters , the dog would start chewing on the partridge on the retrieve so he trained it in the only way he new how , took it out the back tied it to a tree and shot it, this was in the early 60"s

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by polmaise » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:07 pm

Soarer31 wrote: I'm basically talking more about hunting here ,
It seems that nowadays you practicaly have to be a pro trainer to have a half descent hunting dog
The way I see it , if you can find a "well bred" hunting dog the less training is required and you wouldn't have the need to resort to a pro to fix problems that could of been prevented in the breeding
Don't know exactly what the stats are in your neck of the woods 'Soarer31', 90% of my clients that come for Gundog training have dogs with issues and them dogs are from the ''very Best hunting breed lines in the country'' ?...Many end up 'Over There'. :mrgreen:

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:52 pm

JKP wrote:
I'll put it more bluntly. I don't give a rat's patoot about retrieving.... Never have...never will.
Boy...that plays right in the "wheelhouse" of the Antis and Greenies...hunters that don't give a rat's patoot about recovering game.
That is a ludicrous extrapolation of what he actually said. But that little "lie" will pad your agenda quite nicely, won't it.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:56 pm

Soarer31 wrote: My old man used have setters and harehounds , I can remember once he a had a problem with one of his setters , the dog would start chewing on the partridge on the retrieve so he trained it in the only way he new how , took it out the back tied it to a tree and shot it, this was in the early 60"s
So your thread would be more aptly titled "Well trained v Shot"

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Soarer31 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:31 pm

slistoe wrote:
Soarer31 wrote: My old man used have setters and harehounds , I can remember once he a had a problem with one of his setters , the dog would start chewing on the partridge on the retrieve so he trained it in the only way he new how , took it out the back tied it to a tree and shot it, this was in the early 60"s
So your thread would be more aptly titled "Well trained v Shot"
Ha. Ha ,
But I guess what the old bloke was hoping to do was to leave a bad trait by the side of the tree,

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by lugmastro » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:11 am

This whole argument is skewed. Most well bred dogs will hunt right out the gate. Much of the desired characteristics are there at birth. We feel the need to make sure the dog points picture perfectly, or is Steady to Wing and Shot. We have increased our expectations of what a hunting dog SHOULD look like. I think that vast majority of problems that we have now are due to over training and pen raised birds. My dogs are meant to put meat on the table. My dogs learn to hunt through experience on wild birds. Funny I think that is how dogs learned before we started to send them off, and paid people to train them for us. I believe that the OP doesn't remember his family training dogs, because they probably let the dog hunt on instinct and learn most things through experience.

I am not saying to not train your dog, or that every dog can hunt without any training. But I do think most guys that just want a hunting partner take training too far and cause themselves more headaches than are necessary.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by millerms06 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:27 am

lugmastro wrote: I am not saying to not train your dog, or that every dog can hunt without any training. But I do think most guys that just want a hunting partner take training too far and cause themselves more headaches than are necessary.

Patience is a virtue a dog demands the owner to stress first and foremost, but too often patience is much forgotten. A great dog needs experience, and most have forgotten the concept of how to establish experience due to living in a fast paced lifestyle.


I really believe that if a person can establish these two concepts wholeheartedly for their dog, well bred and well trained could possibly be interpreted as one in the same to the stranger watching said dog work.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by JKP » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:38 am

Let's get serious....a driven retriever will just recover more birds than one that isn't. All this poppycock about shooting the heads off pheasants...or taking your dog over to the fall, etc. Don't know where you hunt, but along some of the sloughs, mountainside thorn apple or coolies I hunt, there is no way you are walking to the fall....or wading out in the water to get the bird.

Now I know that many dogs of various breeds retrieve...or point dead...or go over and flip the bird before they run to find another one...been there...seen it...done it all. But I will stand by my comment that folks who express
the opinion that they don't "give a rat's patoot about retrieving" do us no favors as hunters. My dogs bring me cold birds left by other hunters every year...and it can happen to all of us. I just feel you go hunting equipped with the best way of bringing home what you shoot. You say you don't need a dog to retrieve to do that. I say you do a better with a dog that wants to retrieve.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by mm » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:57 am

You said your father was doing this in the 60's and I would guess there were plenty of wild birds around which in my opinion would make all the difference. You could run a dog on wild birds a lot and come out with a nice hunting dog. But most of us don't have birds or land so you have to send them where the land and birds are.

As for training and over training I see a lot of people spend tons of time on training a dog to do things they will never do in reality. If you enjoy that that's fine I prefer to keep it to the basic I don't let them retrieve but I like them steady through the shot so I don't have to worry where they are when the shooting starts. I pick up my own birds and in the event I cant find one my dog will find and point a dead bird but I only do this as a last resort.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:12 am

JKP wrote:Let's get serious....a driven retriever will just recover more birds than one that isn't. All this poppycock about shooting the heads off pheasants...or taking your dog over to the fall, etc. Don't know where you hunt, but along some of the sloughs, mountainside thorn apple or coolies I hunt, there is no way you are walking to the fall....or wading out in the water to get the bird.

Now I know that many dogs of various breeds retrieve...or point dead...or go over and flip the bird before they run to find another one...been there...seen it...done it all. But I will stand by my comment that folks who express
the opinion that they don't "give a rat's patoot about retrieving" do us no favors as hunters. My dogs bring me cold birds left by other hunters every year...and it can happen to all of us. I just feel you go hunting equipped with the best way of bringing home what you shoot. You say you don't need a dog to retrieve to do that. I say you do a better with a dog that wants to retrieve.
And I say you are entitled to your opinon...even though you are dead wrong.
That dropper I spoke about earlier would win no prizes but he would not only find dead birds left by other hunters, he made an art form of finding and trapping birds that were wounded by hunters and left. I cannot tell you how many days I went home with a full game bag and didn't fire a shot. And that dog made more a few loooong range retrieves of birds that I plain flat missed...with both barrels. Yeah that's right...he ran the SOB's down and grabbed them out of the air when they were gliding in... then brought them back....all the way. He just did not like swimming in cold water. I understood that...I don't like swimming in cold water either.

You are obviously fixated on certain aspects of a dog's performance, which is fine, except that it positively blinds you to the fact that other dogs can do things in a different way, but for certain hunters, be just as effective in recovering game and in come cases, be even more effective. That is your affliction...and your problem to deal with. The world does not begin and end with the kind of dogs you like and the world does not begin and end with the type of upland hunting you do.

And I DEFY you to explain how a bird with its head neatly blown off, can require anything more than for the hunter to walk over, bend over and pick it up. I can tell you this... such a bird makes a wonderful candidate for plucking, stuffing and roasting, because there are no holes in the skin to tear and no pellets hidden in the meat to break your teeth. :lol: :lol:

When someone pokes fun at another, it is wise to remember that turnabout is indeed fair play.

RayG

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:55 am

RayGubernat wrote:
JKP wrote:Let's get serious....a driven retriever will just recover more birds than one that isn't. All this poppycock about shooting the heads off pheasants...or taking your dog over to the fall, etc. Don't know where you hunt, but along some of the sloughs, mountainside thorn apple or coolies I hunt, there is no way you are walking to the fall....or wading out in the water to get the bird.

Now I know that many dogs of various breeds retrieve...or point dead...or go over and flip the bird before they run to find another one...been there...seen it...done it all. But I will stand by my comment that folks who express
the opinion that they don't "give a rat's patoot about retrieving" do us no favors as hunters. My dogs bring me cold birds left by other hunters every year...and it can happen to all of us. I just feel you go hunting equipped with the best way of bringing home what you shoot. You say you don't need a dog to retrieve to do that. I say you do a better with a dog that wants to retrieve.
And I say you are entitled to your opinon...even though you are dead wrong.
That dropper I spoke about earlier would win no prizes but he would not only find dead birds left by other hunters, he made an art form of finding and trapping birds that were wounded by hunters and left. I cannot tell you how many days I went home with a full game bag and didn't fire a shot. And that dog made more a few loooong range retrieves of birds that I plain flat missed...with both barrels. Yeah that's right...he ran the SOB's down and grabbed them out of the air when they were gliding in... then brought them back....all the way. He just did not like swimming in cold water. I understood that...I don't like swimming in cold water either.

You are obviously fixated on certain aspects of a dog's performance, which is fine, except that it positively blinds you to the fact that other dogs can do things in a different way, but for certain hunters, be just as effective in recovering game and in come cases, be even more effective. That is your affliction...and your problem to deal with. The world does not begin and end with the kind of dogs you like and the world does not begin and end with the type of upland hunting you do.

And I DEFY you to explain how a bird with its head neatly blown off, can require anything more than for the hunter to walk over, bend over and pick it up. I can tell you this... such a bird makes a wonderful candidate for plucking, stuffing and roasting, because there are no holes in the skin to tear and no pellets hidden in the meat to break your teeth. :lol: :lol:

When someone pokes fun at another, it is wise to remember that turnabout is indeed fair play.

RayG
Ray:
If you come out to South Dakota in December, I will take you hunting in the Sand Lake Refuge. We can put beepers or Garmin Astros on the dogs. I like beepers because the dogs learn to honor beepers. We can walk frozen deer trails in thousands of acres of cattails. I will guarantee you no matter what you shoot off the birds you will have very few that you walk over to and pick up. probably none. I am not a very good shot, but I have friends who are, I don't think I have ever seen the head shot off of a pheasant and I have seen many thousands shot. Most times they are going away. South Dakota DNR estimates Dogless hunters lose at 25% of their birds. Even in the CRP. Very hard to find a downed bird in a section of crp grass. Especially over a hill where you can,t see the fall. I realize you probably don't hunt in that kind of terrain but I do because it is fun and you get excellent dog work when they are totally on their own.
I love a good retrieving dog and Have no use for one that won't retrieve. Also try to breed natural retrievers. Not sure if it works but I hope so..................Cj

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by lugmastro » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:07 am

This no retrieve topic is horrible. The dog is going to find birds dead or alive better than you will. I have dropped some birds in thick cover, that I would have lost, only to have the dog retrieve it back to me. I bird dog that doesn't retrieve is not a trait I want in a dog. I want an enthusiastic retrieve and a determined search for a dead bird. There are so few wild birds left, that we need to make sure that we recover each and every bird taken. I know the dog finds dead birds and cripples that I would never even be able to walk to. Once again I want my dogs to help put meat on the table, I want nothing but efficient hunting and solid retrieves.

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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by ultracarry » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:22 am

lugmastro wrote:This no retrieve topic is horrible. The dog is going to find birds dead or alive better than you will. I have dropped some birds in thick cover, that I would have lost, only to have the dog retrieve it back to me. I bird dog that doesn't retrieve is not a trait I want in a dog. I want an enthusiastic retrieve and a determined search for a dead bird. There are so few wild birds left, that we need to make sure that we recover each and every bird taken. I know the dog finds dead birds and cripples that I would never even be able to walk to. Once again I want my dogs to help put meat on the table, I want nothing but efficient hunting and solid retrieves.
So what's the difference when I can relocate my dog to point a downed bird I can not find... Dog is still finding the dead bird, just not picking it up. Sounds like the same effort is out forth by the dog. The only difference if you feel a dog that picks up the bird is better for some reason.

Outcome is birds being found with both...

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lugmastro
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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by lugmastro » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:27 am

Good luck breaking some of the brush out West or in NC to get to it. If he is going to point a dead bird, why wouldn't you teach him to pick it up and bring it back? That logic is failing me. Is the dog not a tool to use in the field to make your life easier?

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Del Lolo
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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Del Lolo » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:44 am

I guess it all depends on what a person is satisfied on.
For me, the dog needs to put on a good hunt -- point -- be steady to FSF - and retrieve.
I also want a dog that will do excellent Blind Retrieves, which results in far less cover being disturbed than just letting a dog run around until it stumbles on a bird. Go when sent -- Stop when told -- Go where sent and don't come back without a bird.
And, IMO, there is a lot more to hunting than just Upland birds -- there are also ducks and geese.

If you are satisfied with less than a complete bird dog, it's fine with me.
Last edited by Del Lolo on Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ultracarry
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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by ultracarry » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:52 am

Ummm I hunt in the west ( see the word California under my pic). Retrieving doesn't make a complete dog at all... Pointing and holding point no matter how long it takes you to get there is closer to what a pointing dog should do. Retrieving is a matter of preference.

I have one that will retrieve all day no matter what... I have another I won't let retrieve even though he is natural because I choose to not let him out of personal preference. Doesn't make it less or more of a dog, as long as it equals a recovery )if you choose to shoot one).

Ms. Cage
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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by Ms. Cage » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:08 am

Folks in differant areas have differant needs. Myself, I need the retrieve. Minnesota is the land of 10,000 lakes. The county i live in has over a 1,000 lakes , tons of creeks and swamps. i can't tell how many time I've drop a grouse or woodcock across a creek , river , or in the lake.
Last edited by Ms. Cage on Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

mask
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Re: Well bred V Well trained

Post by mask » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:14 am

Soarer31 wrote:I always pondered about this
When growing up in the old country, hunting was a way of life , it was to put food on the table but I can never recall my old man or my grand dad ever training their dogs, part from some rudimentary obedience

Now , training has become a profession , get a dog , send it to the pro and he will fix almost anything. The pro has all the tools and the expertise to gloss over most any undesirable trait

So are we breeding the best with the best? or the best trained with the best trained? Well bred dogs with loads of natural ability can easily be overlooked

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I hear you say!
Me recons you can come pretty close

Cheers
A good trainer can bring out a dogs potential but you can not make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Good breeding will rise to the top, sometimes in spite of the dogs training and poor breeding will show itself as well.

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