The Pointer Standard

[Neil]

There has been much said about the pointer standard both affirmative and negative in regards to its effects on the other breeds.

I would like to think that I can judge the difference in the varies types, classes of pointing dogs:

I believe I can articulate the difference in All-Age and horseback Shooting Dog, further a horseback from walking Shooting Dog, and even a horseback Gun Dog from a walking Gun Dog. I understand a Cover Dogs, I even think I know not just specie differences but terrain and regional ones. At the pinnacle is the All-Age, it is the extreme expressor of what a pointing dog is to be, it is so much more than extreme range and top speed; it is also application, style and class, not even limited to endurance, it is also confidence and independence to the highest degree. To a degree to render them nearly impractical for many venues and hunters. And the other classifications are not inferior, just less extreme.

But I have never been taught to distinguish a pointer from a setter, or a GSP, or a Britt, and so on. Since a pointer dominates each of the types except the cover dog where they are the equal of the setter, I am at a loss. I have neither the vocabulary nor the training to tell the best Viszla from the best Wirehair, except as compared to the pointer. So if you tell me to, say, judge the pointer to an All-Age and the Brittany to a Gun Dog standard, even in the same stake, I think I can do it. I could justify the Brittany was a better gun dog than the pointer was an All-Age on that day.

[Neil]

My Kindle cut me off.

So to continue, I am willing to learn the breed differences if some of you will teach me the specifics. I want to learn what a Viszla would do differently than a Gordon and how they would look doing it.

And as far as if I want a Brittany to hunt like a pointer, I should get a pointer goes, there is more to a breed than just hunting style; there is size, temperment, looks, etc. I have always said I do not have Brittanys because I think they are the best, but because they like me the best. They fit my personality.

Neil

[KwikIrish]

To me, if I am running in an all breed stake, it's what the judge is looking for, not if my Irish or vizsla performed best to its own breed's standard. We run all breed because we prefer dogs who preform like the rouges we compete with, despite the color. If people desire to have dogs preform as their breed is meant to preform, that's just fine, but until they form a written performance standard, we as individual breeds, have no set goal for each breed. I honestly don't think that would ever happen, as the minuet a club described a breed as a closer working gun dog, that breed club would inherently have to cease the holding of breed specific all age, as wouldn't it be seen as a deliberate difiance of the breed club's standard?
One of the few breeds that come to mind as notably (and agreeably) described in their manor of hunting is the spanoni italliano, which I believe is said to be "slow and methodical" in its hunting manor. Should judges open their interpritation and standard to accommodate for this breed? I think it would be rather interestin but is it realistic and probable?

[JKP]

But I have never been taught to distinguish a pointer from a setter, or a GSP, or a Britt, and so on. Since a pointer dominates each of the types except the cover dog where they are the equal of the setter, I am at a loss. I have neither the vocabulary nor the training to tell the best Viszla from the best Wirehair, except as compared to the pointer.

When the other breeds compete on Pointer turf, its always going to be an uphill battle. If we could get a few Pointers down to break ice out to the decoys, you might think differently. The Pointer enthusiasts have had the luxury of being able to breed for a very narrow list of priorities...run and point. That was not the sole purpose of the GSP, Britt, GWP and others....at least not until lately. I feel sorry for you if you can't be impressed by a snappy 2-400 yd hard working dog of any breed. If you need a written text to tell you what is impressive, you should just stick with Pointers.

Can I assume that you are unable to appreciate your Chevy because its not a Mercedes???

[dan v]

I think the point Neil is trying to make, and using your Chev vs Mercedes analogy....both those makers build the same class of truck, and both are intended to do the same job. But they do build other class' of trucks as well, so to compare a class 8 truck to a class 3 truck is apples vs oranges. Neil is simply pointing out that if all these differing breeds are in all reality different class' of truck...then put the pan to paper and start writing.

I've asked the question myself a number times, and people nearly always respond with physical differences, not performance differences.

[Becassier]

There is a book written by Craig Koshyk: Pointing Dogs Volume One: The Continentals.. great book lots of insight as to performance of different breeds, and their intended purpose. He is working on Volume Two now.

He also has a blog with a lot great information http://www.pointingdogblog.blogspot.com

He is a really nice person loves to talk dogs and hunting.. find him on Facebook too.

[RayGubernat]

I think the point Neil is trying to make, and using your Chev vs Mercedes analogy....both those makers build the same class of truck, and both are intended to do the same job. But they do build other class' of trucks as well, so to compare a class 8 truck to a class 3 truck is apples vs oranges. Neil is simply pointing out that if all these differing breeds are in all reality different class' of truck...then put the pan to paper and start writing.

I've asked the question myself a number times, and people nearly always respond with physical differences, not performance differences.

Wyndancer -

There are physical differences, that sometimes translate into performance differences, but there are, or should be, style differences and modes of hunting differences.

One example that I can give is when watching a pointer and a shorthair work out a scent. If the pointer drops its nose, that is a negative to me... as pointers really ain't supposed to do that. However, if a shorthair drops its nose to pick up scent, I cannot, in good conscience, fault a shorthair for that. They are supposed to work ground scent for fur. So it would only be doing what it has been bred for.

There are other style differences that I can think of in different breeds that I have seen ...but speaking to them will probably get me into trouble, so I'll keep them to myself.

Suffice it to say that some breeds do it a little different. Not better , not worse, but different. The more I see of the different breeds, the more I can start to see some of those style differences. I grew up watching pointers and setters, so I do have an inherent bias toward the kind of performance they put down, especially as regards big going dogs. Going to all breed trials and watching the various breeds perform, especially in Gun Dog stakes... is part of my continuing education as is my occasional stint at a Hunt test as a mounted bird planter, which allows me to watch...and not have to walk.


RayG

[dan v]

Thanks Ray...that's what we're after. Differences...on paper.

[JKP]

Is this really a problem??? having to identify differing standards?? We have heard many times that in the absence of sufficient performance to award placements, they will be withheld. So it would appear that judges are finding sufficient performance across many breeds that are worthy of placement. This would indicate that judges are capable of appreciating differing styles of performance as Ray has indicated. I'd like to think that judges and owners would also be looking for the effective hunting dogs....not just the angle of the tail and the level of the nose. I would not separate the height of the nose but rather how quickly and confidently a dog finds and indicates game...but I have always had a problem with style over results.

Clearly, at the upper echelons of the sport, the longtails are dominant. But its not that they find more game...its because of the style parameters demanded and expected in the venue as Ray has indicated. We need to keep our eye on the prize...the dog that pleases you that is standing game often.

[Neil]

JKP,

I would only like to clarify in your otherwise excellent post, the pointers win not just at the upper echelon of All-Age, but from NSTRA on up, every venue except water work and cover dog the pointer wins at a higher rate than entered. Same is true in the hunting fields.

And trully funcation is more important than style, but you can and do have both.

Ray,

I am not sure how much judges fault a dog for lowering his head on a relocation, I have seen them look like a possum at Ames. I don't much care for it either, but it does seem a case of where results are more important.

I really would like to hear other breed differences that might impact judging, you are a diplomat, you can do it without insult.

I am aware that at the AKC Gun Dog Ch. they award the top dog in each breed, I assumed it was all to the same standard, but perhaps not. Perhaps the top Gordon is judged to a Gordon standard, and so own and I am not smart enough to understand.

[RayGubernat]

JKP,

I would only like to clarify in your otherwise excellent post, the pointers win not just at the upper echelon of All-Age, but from NSTRA on up, every venue except water work and cover dog the pointer wins at a higher rate than entered. Same is true in the hunting fields.

And trully funcation is more important than style, but you can and do have both.

Ray,

I am not sure how much judges fault a dog for lowering his head on a relocation, I have seen them look like a possum at Ames. I don't much care for it either, but it does seem a case of where results are more important.

I really would like to hear other breed differences that might impact judging, you are a diplomat, you can do it without insult.

I am aware that at the AKC Gun Dog Ch. they award the top dog in each breed, I assumed it was all to the same standard, but perhaps not. Perhaps the top Gordon is judged to a Gordon standard, and so own and I am not smart enough to understand.

Neil -

Actually, in NSTRA, the four major breeds...pointer, setter shorthair and Brittany...all win with pretty much the same incidence that they are entered. At least they did back the last two years that the NSTRA results were reported in the Field. I would agree that those competitions where water work were required, pointers might not be a dominant force.

I do disagree with JKP's statement regarding pointers: "But its not that they find more game...its because of the style parameters demanded and expected in the venue as Ray has indicated."

The pointers dominate in certain venues, such as the higher echelon of Horseback shooting dog and Horseback all age because they bring not only bird finding ability, but high levels of ALL of the other attributes of a class dog as well.

JKP has the same lack of understanding, regarding bird contacts, that is common among many folks who do not trial. They simply do not understand that it is not about counting finds. Six finds in a half hour is not necessarily a better indication of a "better" performance than two finds is. Quality trumps quantity almost all the time in the higher echelons of field trialing.

The field trial handler has at most, as a general rule, sixty minutes to show ALL the things that their dog can do. That includes bird finding, style on point and manners around game, ground application, handling, independence, boldness, endurance...to mention most of the more important ones. Finding birds and handling them cleanly is certainly one of the more important skills a bird dog must demonstrate....but it ain't the only one.

When all the dog have demonstrated that they can find and point birds cleanly, as they generally do in the upper echelons of horseback field trialing, the dogs that get placed are(and IMO should be) the ones that show the highest levels of those other highly desirable attributes.

Lots of folks simply cannot get their heads wrapped around the fact that a field trial is NOT a hunt, but in fact is a SHOW, a performance. The handler has the time allotted to show the judges just how great his dog is, so the handler has to have their dog hit as many high notes as possible in the time allotted.

I liken a field trial run to a figure skater's free program. In the free program it is not just how many times the skater jumps but how many combinations, how many doubles and triples... the level of difficulty of those individual and combination "tricks" and how the skater weaves them all together in a powerful, flowing, pleasing program. There are a lot of facets to a high class field trial performance, but the dog that does them all, NAILS them all and makes it look easy...

THAT is the dog that should be rewarded, because that is the dog that MIGHT be able to pass ALL of that down to their progeny.

RayG

[JKP]

JKP has the same lack of understanding, regarding bird contacts, that is common among many folks who do not trial. They simply do not understand that it is not about counting finds. Six finds in a half hour is not necessarily a better indication of a "better" performance than two finds is. Quality trumps quantity almost all the time in the higher echelons of field trialing.

Ray, I attended my first trials 53 years ago....when were yours??? I most definitely get it. I also know that an awful lot of dogs ran at the NC this year and found precious little. That's not why folks buy dogs or go hunting...to watch their dogs run....no matter how beautiful. Note that the dogs that have found the most birds over the years DID win. What I don't understand is how many dogs can go lost, birds not found and unproductives add up to "class dogs". It can only be that too much attention is being paid to the style and not the result.

Lots of folks simply cannot get their heads wrapped around the fact that a field trial is NOT a hunt, but in fact is a SHOW, a performance.

THANK YOU!! I have been saying this for years and comparing the show ring to FT and finally someone has the honesty to admit it. I have cut this out and pasted it in my memorable quotes for future use.

But back to the thread.....judges are awarding placements....in mixed breed trials....where various breeds are placing over others. Sounds to me like you have nothing to fear. IMO...its only when Britts stretch up to 24", GSP parade with concave heads/stops and GWP are all white and 50lbs that its gone too far. But that would never happen would it?? Such dogs are a very small %.

[Neil]

It is not from fear that I started the thread, I am trying to learn. Many speak of breed specific traits that distingish the other breds from pointers, I would like to know what some of them are. So far we have the GSP lower its head for ground scent versus the pointers higher head.

And JKP, it might help if you watched the dogs that run at Ames. They sure look to me to hunt. It is a bit hard to judge them from your computer.

[dan v]

I am aware that at the AKC Gun Dog Ch. they award the top dog in each breed, I assumed it was all to the same standard, but perhaps not. Perhaps the top Gordon is judged to a Gordon standard, and so own and I am not smart enough to understand.

Neil, I have thoughts on this, but not on tablet.

Ok, on a laptop.

Here's how I see the Best of Breed at the AKC GD Ch went, at the one I attended at Mile Post 9. Now to be clear this isn't anything directed at the judges ..at all...nothing.

There they ran an out/back course. There was a point on each course that if you weren't making any money you got the hook, and they'd ride back to the cast off and try again with another brace. I have no problems with that, it's a rugged a course as I've ever seen. We ran dogs of various breeds, and if you were doing alright before they judges had their 4, you'd go on to the end. But after the judges had their 4? You had to be moving one of the 4 out to keep going. Now what happened in my opinion was if you had an ES early, you might have got the hour....but once the judges had their 4, you might have been the "best" ES in the stake...but you didn't get the chance to finish the hour UNLESS you were beating one of the top 4.

I do not believe the judges were judging the Best of Breed on any breed type standard. To be awarded BOB you needed to complete the hour.

[Neil]

Thanks Wynn, I know some of the past judges, and most, if not all of them would do as you say, judge to one standard - Horseback Gun Dog! But I am trying to learn. There may be some smart enough to judge each breed on a standard based on their original purpose. I am keeping an open mind here.

[JKP]

And JKP, it might help if you watched the dogs that run at Ames. They sure look to me to hunt. It is a bit hard to judge them from your computer.

True....but the fact that NO ONE even questions these dogs, the finest in the land....in the best hands....and on grounds manicured for quail production (game biologists included), and how year after year so few birds are pointed over 3 hours by so many dogs....I just find it incredible. When anyone says something, its circle the wagons time and nobody knows what he's talking about....or its not about birds found. heh...who knew??

[mask]

And JKP, it might help if you watched the dogs that run at Ames. They sure look to me to hunt. It is a bit hard to judge them from your computer.

True....but the fact that NO ONE even questions these dogs, the finest in the land....in the best hands....and on grounds manicured for quail production (game biologists included), and how year after year so few birds are pointed over 3 hours by so many dogs....I just find it incredible. When anyone says something, its circle the wagons time and nobody knows what he's talking about....or its not about birds found. heh...who knew??

The best dog in the world can't find what is not there. The dogs running at Ames are expected to run the coarse and that usually doesn't mean going off into the thick stuff where they can't be found. This year two dogs that had to be found with the garmin were found standing so stuff happens. The first few days had terrible conditions and the birds were not feeding on the edges and that was the main cause for the lack of finds it sure wasn't for lack of trying.

[JKP]

The best dog in the world can't find what is not there. The dogs running at Ames are expected to run the coarse and that usually doesn't mean going off into the thick stuff where they can't be found.

WOW!!! So we trot them around the ring where the judges can see them??? How does Bo have 8 finds on the same course that other dogs have run??? Birds weren't there the previous 7 days???
See what I mean....there is always a reason why the dogs can't produce game....a dog never runs off...its just somewhere on point unfound....never false points.....the birds flew off before the handler got there....but it ran the course perfectly.

You guys don't understand why this sounds like Westminster to many of us?? the cool aid society?? just a game??...artificial as any other venue?? I do believe there are some super dogs at these events but I don't think its all as rosy as you make it out to be when 1/2 the field can't finish or find more than 1 bird in 3 hours....remembering that these are all the best dogs in the land.

[birddog1968]

You do realize these dogs spend the summer on the northern prairie finding wild birds don't you? Visit while they are there.

[RayGubernat]

JKP has the same lack of understanding, regarding bird contacts, that is common among many folks who do not trial. They simply do not understand that it is not about counting finds. Six finds in a half hour is not necessarily a better indication of a "better" performance than two finds is. Quality trumps quantity almost all the time in the higher echelons of field trialing.

Ray, I attended my first trials 53 years ago....when were yours??? I most definitely get it. I also know that an awful lot of dogs ran at the NC this year and found precious little. That's not why folks buy dogs or go hunting...to watch their dogs run....no matter how beautiful. Note that the dogs that have found the most birds over the years DID win. What I don't understand is how many dogs can go lost, birds not found and unproductives add up to "class dogs". It can only be that too much attention is being paid to the style and not the result.

Lots of folks simply cannot get their heads wrapped around the fact that a field trial is NOT a hunt, but in fact is a SHOW, a performance.

THANK YOU!! I have been saying this for years and comparing the show ring to FT and finally someone has the honesty to admit it. I have cut this out and pasted it in my memorable quotes for future use.

But back to the thread.....judges are awarding placements....in mixed breed trials....where various breeds are placing over others. Sounds to me like you have nothing to fear. IMO...its only when Britts stretch up to 24", GSP parade with concave heads/stops and GWP are all white and 50lbs that its gone too far. But that would never happen would it?? Such dogs are a very small %.

JKP -

There is an old adage: Some folks have thirty years experience and other folks have one year's experience repeated thirty times.

I don't attend trials...I compete...I judge...I report. But mostly...I compete. So yeah...I had better know what it takes to win, both from the dog and myself.

I have been competing at the amateur level... mostly with dogs I trained myself, with occasional help, for almost twenty years now. I started in AF walking shooting dog stakes and moved to AF horseback stakes when I could afford a horse and all that went with it. I do actually have a few ribbons of varying colors to show for it. No AF champions...yet...but I do have a little female pointer in my kennel with an FC that she earned in open all age competition at shorthair trials.

And for what it is worth, I compete in a geographic area where there are some of the very best AF shooting dogs, shooting dog trainers and shooting dog handlers in the entire country. Last year, three of the top four shooting dog handlers in the country regularly attend the AF trials that I go to. The competition, even among amateurs hereabouts... is positively INTENSE, because some of the dogs the amateurs compete with are the very same dogs that the pros win with. The AKC competition ain't exactly chopped liver neither. I just judged a walking stake where one of the dogs was a National Gun dog champion...and that dog came in SECOND. The club in NJ I belong to has SEVERAL Hall of Fame members and several national champion dogs, of different breeds. So I kinda think I might just have a fair idea of what it takes to be competitive.

Your posts CLEARLY demonstrate that, in fact, you most definitely DO NOT get it. So I will do it one more time....

Field trialing is(or should be) an exercise in EXTREMES of performance. IT IS NOT SOLELY ABOUT FINDING BIRDS. IT IS NOT HUNTING. It is(or should be about) so much more.

Finding birds is important, but that is only where it starts. In the better stakes ALL the dogs can find birds and all the dogs can handle them cleanly, or they wouldn't be there in the first place, because their owbneers would not waste the money. Sooo, the things that separate the good dogs are, very often, the things the dogs do IN ADDITION to finding birds. The handlers have, at most an hour, to show the judges ALL of what makes their dog special and worthy, so they find and handle a couple of birds...and then concentrate on demonstrating ALL of the other things that go into what is called a class dog.

If all the dogs find birds and handle them cleanly...how then do you separate them? By number of finds? That's a horrible way, because a class performance has soooo many different elements to it. What about handling, ground application, endurance, gait, intensity, boldness, etc., etc,. etc.

And yes...I am still learning about the different breeds and how they do what they do. That makes it fun for me, in a whole new and different way.

RayG

[fuzznut]

JKP- why do only roughly 50% of the dogs in the NAVHDA Invitational pass each year? Aren't these dogs considered the cream of the crop? What happens?

[JKP]

JKP- why do only roughly 50% of the dogs in the NAVHDA Invitational pass each year? Aren't these dogs considered the cream of the crop? What happens?

Oh, c'mon Fuzz...you're talking about a bunch of week end warriors, not pro handlers with the best proven over years of competing. You guys get me all wrong...I know there are some fabulous dogs. My amazement stems from the fact that no one questions....that there is always a reason that dogs do poorly....and that finding birds has les to do with the dogs or trialing. There is never a discussion about what affect pushing the limits on independence and cooperation has on breeding. Its like its all a sales pitch. People make dogs....and folks who can't have an honest discussion about those dogs have a problem.. to me anyway. According to you folks all the dogs at the NC were fabulous dogs with no issues....and the 1/2 that couldn't be found or that couldn't find birds are just the dogs you want to sire your next pup....because finding birds is not what these dogs are about. Heh...where do I sign up!!!

If all the dogs find birds and handle them cleanly...how then do you separate them? By number of finds?

Well don't you think a dog should be able to find 1-2 birds?? How do you distinguish just running hard and hunting?? If a dog does a one hour duck search, and just beats itself and flattens the cattails when I know there are ducks in the cover....shouldn't I question what is going on?? nose?? desire???

Do you folks EVER look at a dog and determine its just running to hear the wind in its ears?? Do you EVER question whether its pointing lost or maybe gone over the hill?? Do you EVER think a dog may be finding birds with its feet and not with intelligence and its nose?? that given the conditions it should have been more productive?? and would you admit to any of these??? To me it sounds like the method is more important than the results....Its like saying that trying hard is actually more important than the results.

[Neil]

Please on topic. I am trying to learn here.

I am alll for a trial bashing thread, but not here, start another.

[shags]

Do you folks EVER look at a dog and determine its just running to hear the wind in its ears?? Do you EVER question whether its pointing lost or maybe gone over the hill?? Do you EVER think a dog may be finding birds with its feet and not with intelligence and its nose?? that given the conditions it should have been more productive?? and would you admit to any of these??? To me it sounds like the method is more important than the results....Its like saying that trying hard is actually more important than the results.

Of course! That's what trial stakes are all about...to separate the ones that get it done on that particular day from the ones that don't. And even the best most consistent dogs have days when they don't perform well. And there are days when a dog that is usually mediocre can sparkle.

They are dogs, not robots.

What is your point?

[ezzy333]

Oh, c'mon Fuzz...you're talking about a bunch of week end warriors, not pro handlers with the best proven over years of competing. You guys get me all wrong...I know there are some fabulous dogs. My amazement stems from the fact that no one questions....that there is always a reason that dogs do poorly....and that finding birds has les to do with the dogs or trialing. There is never a discussion about what affect pushing the limits on independence and cooperation has on breeding. Its like its all a sales pitch. People make dogs....and folks who can't have an honest discussion about those dogs have a problem.. to me anyway. According to you folks all the dogs at the NC were fabulous dogs with no issues....and the 1/2 that couldn't be found or that couldn't find birds are just the dogs you want to sire your next pup....because finding birds is not what these dogs are about. Heh...where do I sign up!!!

JKP, you have made some good points but now it is beginning to sound like someone that just wants to argue. How can you tell if no one questions that a dog does poorly. Even you know there is no need to question it when dogs with title that were fairly won finish 2nd,3rd, 4th, or worse in a trial. That is what the trial is about, finding the best dog of the day. And it matters not how any dog got as good as they are since all anyone, including yourself is looking for or even able to judge is how good it is today. And if you are not looking for a dog with AA qualities, that is fine, as I am not either, but that gives us little reason to try and bash them other that to say that is not how I judge a good dog. End of argument. And maybe just maybe, you can find it within your self to read if you like or ignore if that suits you better but in either case, once you have made your position known, to stop trying to run down the games other people find entertaining. They have the same right you do to liking what they like, and doing it for whatever reason they like as well.

We have all witnessed the writings explaining what you think and continuing to belabor the situation adds nothing to your reputation or of interest to the board. Just stop and think before you post something you have posted several times before without changing a single persons mind of what they think.

Ezzy

[buckshot1]

This is another thread that started off as a worthwhile discussion but quickly turned into yet another "are field trials bad?" argument. I hope it gets back on track.

Neil, first of all, what is the "pointer standard" that we're hypothetically measuring other breeds up to? You've described how pointers have success in all age, shooting dog, gun dog, and cover dog stakes, but those are all very different standards rather than one "pointer standard." It seems to me that these different stake standards aren't meant to be specific to pointers and are instead meant to be applied evenly to all breeds. It seems also that many of the breed differences, such as GSPs ground scenting on relocation, aren't proscribed by any of the rules. I'm not aware of a rule that says a dog should be penalized for ground scenting on relocation, as long as the dog successfully relocates. If a dog does have a breed specific trait that prevents it from performing up to a written standard, such as a Brit not covering enough ground in an all age stake, then tough luck. There are plenty of other more suitable types of dog trials/tests out there for dogs that can't perform up to the standard of a certain stake. I don't have near your experience, but I don't see how a judge could fairly adapt the standards to different breeds in the same stake.

[RayGubernat]

This is another thread that started off as a worthwhile discussion but quickly turned into yet another "are field trials bad?" argument. I hope it gets back on track.

Neil, first of all, what is the "pointer standard" that we're hypothetically measuring other breeds up to? You've described how pointers have success in all age, shooting dog, gun dog, and cover dog stakes, but those are all very different standards rather than one "pointer standard." It seems to me that these different stake standards aren't meant to be specific to pointers and are instead meant to be applied evenly to all breeds. It seems also that many of the breed differences, such as GSPs ground scenting on relocation, aren't proscribed by any of the rules. I'm not aware of a rule that says a dog should be penalized for ground scenting on relocation, as long as the dog successfully relocates. If a dog does have a breed specific trait that prevents it from performing up to a written standard, such as a Brit not covering enough ground in an all age stake, then tough luck. There are plenty of other more suitable types of dog trials/tests out there for dogs that can't perform up to the standard of a certain stake. I don't have near your experience, but I don't see how a judge could fairly adapt the rules to different breeds in the same stake.

Buckshot -

Since I am the one who mentioned a dog dropping its nose on a relo...I'll give you MY reasons. First you are correct...there is no rule. However, A pointer is supposed to go to its birds with a high head, using air(body scent). That is how it has been bred. So, in my opinion, a pointer that drops its head and follows foot scent on a relocation is NOT doing what I would expect a high class pointer to do. So, for me, that is not something I want to see in a pointer.


By way of contrast...a shorthair IS(or should be) bred to follow foot scent. Last time I checked, rabbits can't fly, and shorthairs and other continentals are expected to work rabbits and other fur. So, I would actually expect that a shorthair, or DD or WPG or DK would drop its nose during a relocation and consider it good form...for those breeds.

If a pointer dropped its nose to check foot scent a couple of times on a difficult or long relo, I would consider that a positive for the dog... as in smart hunting. Similarly, if a shorthair picked up their head and looked for and worked body scent in addition to foot scent, it would be a positive for that dog....again, smart hunting. If either dog stooped, cocked its head and listened for the running bird... Yeah I'd be impressed and it woud not matter what kind of skin the dog was wrapped it. a dog using its ears in addition to its other senses would definitely get this old boy's attention.

I'll throw one out there for discussion. The "pointer" standard, as it relates to pointing game, essentially looks for a straight tail at or near 12 o'clock with absolutely no motion. How does one apply that pointer standard to a breed with a docked tail, or a stub? If a Brittany has no tail whatsoever, you cannot hold that against the dog. Most continental breeds have docked tails and they have not been bred to have that docked tail at 12 o'clock either, so how do you consider that? I will even add, for cponsideration and discussion, the fact that most AKC bred pointers, and setters have not been bred to point with 12 o'clock tails. What happens in that case?

My personal opinion is this...if I can see a stub or a partial tail on a Brit or continental, it had better be still when the dog is on point and it had better be somewhere else than tucked between the dog's legs. If I can see that the pointer or setter is AKC bred, I will not hold the dog's tail carriage to the same standards as I would an FDSB bred dog, because that simply is not fair. But again, the tail needs to be still. Of course, the tail is often the first thing you will see as you ride up to a dog on point, but it should be one of the last things you give import to as far as the total evaluation of the dog on game. The primary concern should always be intensity on point followed by accurate location. Then there is manners at flush and shot.

What say you??

Lets get this thing back on track. This could be some good stuff.

RayG

[mask]

Buckshot1 has a good point. In a trial with different breeds you either have to judge them straight up or you have to decide if the pointer in the brace is a better pointer than the britt (pick your breed here) is a britt. This could get sticky unless there were breed standards clearly written for each breed for a judge to go by and even then I can see a wreck coming. Any dog that wins a trial is the best dog that day and that day only.

[shags]

So Ray, what do you do with a field bred Irish or a Red Setter that points with a level tail? How about one that has a nice high sickle? Do you ask the handler how the dog is bred and what its original registry is? How do you sort out several GSPs, when you have a couple liver roan dogs that look like they might have some bench background and a couple that appear to have some Joe Shadow back in there somewhere?

For both AF/AFTCA and AKC field trials, there is only one standard of performance for each stake. There is no allowance made in those standards for breed differences. There is no mention that any slack should be given, or higher standard adhered to, because of breed. Or breeding

IMO it's a slippery slope to judge based on assumptions of a dog's breeding. It's either a good bird dog or not so much that day; as judges our standards should be constant, not fluid according to what breeds are entered in a particular stake.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I have said this before & will say it again when you run multiple breeds head to head the best dog of the day should win no if ands or buts.The only way to judge them by breed is run them in closed breed trials but even then that doesn't mean all dogs are going to compete to the same assumed breed standard so again the best of the day wins,If they all were the same how could you pick a winner? I guess that's why some think the most finds should win leave out everything else.
There is a venue for that type of judging if that's the way you believe.

[Neil]

Thanks for the thouughtful and thought provoking comments.

And Buckshot, others have already said the thing about one year's experience 20 times, you show great insight.

What revitalizes me is we are having a real information sharing conversation just like if we were on the tailgates after a workout.

I believe when most hear "pointer standard" they think All-Age, but pointers do well in NSTRA and walking Gun Dog, too, so perhaps it is more a Noth America pointing dog standard. And it has different sub parts.

All-Age dogs are rare in any breed, even pointers and GSP, rarer still in Brittany and Viszla, and almost nonexistent in some breeds. And I think they should be judged to the standard of the stake enttered. I have seen Shooting Dogs not used because they were too much All-Age like on that day. I have often seen great performances in an All-Age not put up since it was not to the standard, was too much Shooting Dog. A wide Shooting Dog can often place in an All-Age but will seldom win.

The standards of the sub parts of field trials have been articulated; All-Age, Shooting Dog, Horseback and Walking Gun dog all require a very different application. I don't think of one better than the other just different

[JKP]

Does anyone notice that we have all these man made rules and beauty "points" that are totally artificial and that have nothing to do with finding and pointing game?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I believe we do & that's why it's important to SOME OF US! JKP not going to start this all again so I have said enough.

[buckshot1]

Ray, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're ultimately looking for a dog (on a relocation) that shows some bird sense in getting the bird pinned. If you're judging a GSP that puts his nose to the ground, doesn't check for body scent, and knocks the bird, then whether ground scenting is appropriate for his breed or not is irrelevant because he knocked the bird. You might evaluate a continental breed and a pointer slightly differently in terms of using ground scent, but it comes down to bird sense. I don't see any conflict there.

On tail set, my personal opinion is that ALL breeds should be judged on style and intensity rather than tail set, but I know that's not reality. We've all seen stylish and intense points in many different forms. At the risk of getting off track, I also wonder if we're really improving breeds by breeding for 12 o'clock tails considering the veterinary article in the Field last fall correlating 12 o'clock tails with numerous orthopedic issues. At a minimum, I think tail set should be a non factor. I do agree that a dog can't be stylish if his tail is moving. I think a stylish, intense point is something you just know when you see it, and something that most people who see it firsthand will agree upon even if it can't be described well in a written standard.

Neil, I agree and thanks for starting a great thread.

[buckshot1]

Does anyone notice that we have all these man made rules and beauty "points" that are totally artificial and that have nothing to do with finding and pointing game?

JKP, do you go hunting solely to fill your game bag? If not, then "beauty points," and aesthetics generally, must surely be part of the reason why you hunt over pointing dogs. It shouldn't be any different at field trials.

[dan v]

Does anyone notice that we have all these man made rules and beauty "points" that are totally artificial and that have nothing to do with finding and pointing game?

JKP, do you go hunting solely to fill your game bag? If not, then "beauty points," and aesthetics generally, must surely be part of the reason why you hunt over pointing dogs. It shouldn't be any different at field trials.

Yard bird is cheaper.

[ezzy333]

I want to make two points to clarify a couple of points or maybe just to add to the conversation. First, tail set is a completely different thing than tail carriage. Tail set is the location it comes off of the body will tail carriage is how the dog carries it's tail. You can and many times do have a high tail set but the carriage is 12, level, or tucked between the legs.

The second is when you all say the best dog that day when we talk about judging a multi-breed event, how do you judge the best dog? What characteristics are you using? This is where I think the pointer standard comes into play. I think it is ingrained into our heads and not just something we see in writing or even what we talk about. In other words, we talk about the different elements of an AA dog. WE think range but how much range? Is there a limit? We think bird finding but is there a limit or even too much bird finding? and we can ask these same questions about ever aspect of every stake we run in a trial and I'm not sure we can answer all of them. Judging to breed standards in multi-breed events other than field trials is quite common as we see it at every conformation show when we pick BOS or at any animal show when you pick the winners. Just as an example use a Holstein and a Jersey cow. One is big and one is small, both give milk but one gives a lot of milk the other not near as much. One has much higher levels of protein and fat than the other and there are many other differences and yet they both point and find birds, oooopps, I mean give milk and we do not judge them to the same standard. But the owners of both breed like what they have and though they don't do things the same they are both worth about the same when doing what they do..

Just something to think about.
Ezzy

[dan v]

I'm betting KwikIrish will beat me near death when I say this. But Ezzy, if you believe that the Best of Group or Best in Show dogs are judged strictly on how they represent the standard of the breed....well, I got this bridge.........

[Neil]

All good points, Ezzy. I have some experience with dog shows and I am very impressed a judge can learn even one standard let alone all of a Group. When it comes to Best in Show, I think they just pick the prettiest one.

But you are right, if they can do it in shows we should be able to do it in trials. All we need are written field standatds to go with the show standards and really smart judges.

How would you propose the Brittant field standard for Horseback Gun Dog differ from the one for the GSP?

[dan v]

All good points, Ezzy. I have some experience with dog shows and I am very impressed a judge can learn even one standard let alone all of a Group. When it comes to Best in Show, I think they just pick the prettiest one.

But you are right, if they can do it in shows we should be able to do it in trials. All we need are written field standatds to go with the show standards and really smart judges.

How would you propose the Brittant field standard for Horseback Gun Dog differ from the one for the GSP?

Neil. Very few judges have all the breeds they are licensed to judge as primary breeds. I've heard it doesn't take much, once you have X number of breeds, to pick-up the rest of the group. And then. Who gets to do the Judge's Education on these breeds?

[ezzy333]

I'm betting KwikIrish will beat me near death when I say this. But Ezzy, if you believe that the Best of Group or Best in Show dogs are judged strictly on how they represent the standard of the breed....well, I got this bridge.........

I have been there and done that many times and I probably can pick out the winners in the groups pretty close till you get to the little lap dogs and they get tough. But yes I do think they are judged to their individual standard to the best of the judges ability. I do some rabbit judging and I carry the breed standard of every breed their is and if I have a question I go to the standard book. And if I was judging dogs I would read the standard very closely for the breeds I was going to judge to make sure I still know what each says.

And Wyn our Brittany Club invites all judges to attend a seminar that we put on to educate what we are looking for in a field bred dog. I think it has really helped when we look at things like coat and conditioning in particular but also all areas of conformation. I know I am in the minority but I still think breed conformation is just as important for the trial dogs as it is for the show dogs and it should one and the same. And because of that difference we see in different breeds tells me they were bred for doing the same thing is a different manner than some other breed.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

So Ray, what do you do with a field bred Irish or a Red Setter that points with a level tail? How about one that has a nice high sickle? Do you ask the handler how the dog is bred and what its original registry is? How do you sort out several GSPs, when you have a couple liver roan dogs that look like they might have some bench background and a couple that appear to have some Joe Shadow back in there somewhere?

For both AF/AFTCA and AKC field trials, there is only one standard of performance for each stake. There is no allowance made in those standards for breed differences. There is no mention that any slack should be given, or higher standard adhered to, because of breed. Or breeding

IMO it's a slippery slope to judge based on assumptions of a dog's breeding. It's either a good bird dog or not so much that day; as judges our standards should be constant, not fluid according to what breeds are entered in a particular stake.

Shags -

I do agree, but based on conformation and the way the dog moves, I can be pretty sure about which one is an FSDSB pointer and which one is an AKC pointer. I think I can make the same kind of determination about red setters, again based on conformation, the coat and the gait. I also think I know and Irish Red and White when I see one(which is not often). As far as dogs, of any breed pointing with a level tail, as I said previously, that should be one of the last things you consider when evaluating a standing dog. The trick, for me, is to make sure I put it in the proper place in the evaluation and not let it affect or color my evaluation of the more important aspects of a bird contact. The intensity has to be there first and foremost. Someone far wiser than I once opined : "If y'all be lookin' at the tail...y'all be lookin' at the wrong end." There is some truth to that.


However, it is not, and should never be about about giving one dog slack and expecting more of another. Not at all. I do apologize if I gave that impression. It is about looking for the strengths that must be there. It is about looking for positives and not getting hung up exactly how the different breeds exhibit those strengths and positives. The more I know about the different breeds and the subsets within the breeds, the better equipped I can be to see those positives.

If it is a gundog stake, the performance expectation is what it is. If it is an all age stake, the performance expectation is different, but still what it is.

In a gundog stake, a pointer may go through the country in a certain manner which would be typical of a pointer given its size and gait. A Brittany may go through the same country in a different manner, again, due to its size and gait, but just as thoroughly and effectively . An AKC pointer may tend to "glide" through the country, due to its size and gait, while a smaller, cover dog type FDSB pointer may exhibit a much more animated way of going. Four different dogs and four different ways of going through the same country. The question is, or should be... were they all effective searches? It should not necessarily be..."which one was the prettiest'?

At least I hope not, because the dog that will be the prettiest, going through the country, will be a setter of one sort or another...just about every time. As a lifelong pointer owner, I have to say that there are few things in this world that are more beautiful than a setter coursing through waist high broom straw. A good setter, having a good day, can be VERY tough to beat. But you already know that.

In an all age stake, the larger, longer dog with the flowing, ground eating gait will definitely have an advantage, because of the ground application performance expectations which are inherent in an all age stake. This does not mean the bigger dogs will always win, but a smaller, squarer dog will have to work harder to get the same job done as the larger, longer dog.

RayG

[birddogger]

Personally, I am glad that JKP has posted and brought up questions on this thread. He has made some very good points and generated answers which help people, like myself, understand what the AA trials are about. For me, this thread has been very informative.

Charlie

[dan v]

judged to their individual standard to the best of the judges ability

And there's the money.

Dan

[JKP]

This list has made clear repeatedly that their are trials and there are trials. The only real danger is not to be able to appreciate a good performance whether that is a snappy Britt or an AA Pointer out beyond the horizon.

The key is to focus on your kind of dog and be the best you can in whatever venue can show what your dogs can do. It is sad (to me anyway) when folks are willing to chuck a breed's heritage, physical attributes, and way of going merely to win.
We all have seen this as I referenced before with 24" Britts, GSP that look suspiciously like Pointer, 22", 50 lb poorly coated white GWP, etc. I have nothing against competition as long as the breeds retain some individualism and that's what I think this thread is about. In the end, the only thing that separates most dogs of the many breeds, is their appearance and working style. We shouldn't let a game dictate what the breeds become.

IMO....Dogs are like wine or beer ....if you can't appreciate the different types...if it always has to taste the same, you are the poorer for it.

Could be my interpretation....but there seems to be sort of a hierarchy in the FT world...different classes, that look down on each other. The AA dog is better than the SD, the FDSB trial better than the AKC trial, etc, etc, etc.
Yet 99% of the owner/hunters in this country will be more than satisfied with a good going 200 yd dog (if that much) that is easily trained and MORE IMPORTANT is easy to live with. I worry in the quest that we forget that. I know in my venue (VDD), there have been a few top dogs that would definitely be a challenge for the normal handler.

My comments about not being able to see a dog acquire and work game was lightly taken....the response being generally, who cares how as long as the dog is finding game. As a breeder, I am looking for the intelligent dog with the nose and manners that are natural. Dogs that find birds with their feet instead of their brains and their nose are of less interest to me. How a dog processes that scent and works to it and what it does at the "impact point" is way more important than the fact that it is can find birds. I guess the "how" has more value for me. I suspect that Bo was the most intelligent dog at the NC...not just lucky.

I attend a fund raiser trial every year here in NJ...good people for a good cause. Over the years I have watched a few dogs of various breeds from trial stock just scream out through this short course and be gone..to be recovered by truck down the road. Other dogs have come along later and found numerous birds in the fields and the grass behind them. I have seen this in ND as well. I am no longer impressed by great range or speed. It may translate into an advantage in a very few conditions but my 200 yd bootlickers give me a great deal of enjoyment and an opportunity to shoot over my limit if I wanted.

As long as these AA, triple AAA "fuelies" can be driven by the normal hunter, I have no problem. I doubt many of them can. That's why I hope that the Britts, GSP, GWP, etc of this world will take pride in what they are and stop chasing the Pointer.

[SCT]

JKP, I will be breeding my pointer gyp from AF field trial bloodlines to a pointer stud, from somewhat different AF field trial bloodlines when she comes in. He, the stud, has been bred and raised to run from horseback and he has won some CH doing so. Yet, his owner only running him his second time from foot recently, said he stayed within 150 yrds hunting tree rows on the MT prairies. He wasn't wearing a shock collar or tracking collar, he handled the situation with brains and stayed within a foot hunting range. Run him from horseback and he eats up the country in great style, foot hunt him and he adjusts. He IS an All Age dog bred precisely to do what you claim to be ruining the breed. I doubt he is a very rare individual, but I could be wrong. However, that behavior and sense does give me more reason to want to breed to him and I think that's true for most breeders breeding all age dogs. They want that level of brains in their lines. The same brains that find and handle wild birds, and that's why they are taken to the prairies to learn to use those brains. Also, that's where the ones that don't show those qualities are culled, (sold to hunters). And that is why I want to breed to champions.

Steve

[Neil]

Nearly every trainer I know that run at the National Championship at Ames prepares by hunting them from foot and killing birds, it is just part of the program. I have seen these dogs on relocations stay very close, and if they have a UP on the books, it might take awhile.

So I just wish my Britts were closer to this pointer standard.

[KwikIrish]

judged to their individual standard to the best of the judges ability

And there's the money.

Dan

It's interpretation of the standard with a side of politics.
I had a judge who knew I was handling the bitch who had won the national. She put me up and told me how pleased so and so judge would be with her "finding" his bitch. She still puts me up almost every time regardless of what is in the ring. This judge doesn't understand the standard. She is putting up what someone told her and now I'm considered a safe move for her. Political much?
I enjoy the field world because I feel like it is so much harder for judges to play those games. Everyone can see the same dogs they see, almost as they can see it. I feel like there is a lot less left open to interpretation. It's okay to ask a judge why they did what they did. I can however, appreciate Ray's idea of interpretation of the structural inhibitors as an Irish setter connisure but my thought is this... I don't think we can't make exceptions to our standard of performance. Saying an irish can have a level tail but a field bred pointer cannot is essentially opening up the trial world to way more interpretation than it needs. You either accept a level tail or you dont. I don't think it is fair for a judge to base that on breed. I don't want to win anything because my dog did really good... For an Irish. I want to win because my dog performed to THE standard, not A standard.

[dan v]

Kwik...please explain, much better than I, about how judges "get" certain breeds to judge.

[KwikIrish]

[quote=wyndancer"]Kwik...please explain, much better than I, about how judges "get" certain breeds to judge.[/quote]
I'll keep it short as its a big gap from the topic at hand. Essentially you Apply, do some provisional judging, Get a breed mentor, do some sweepstakes judging, and attend a judges education seminar. There is an interview involved that is pass fail. I have never gone through the process.