Difference in training a retriever and pointing breed

[Minneguy]

How different is it really, training a pointing breed (specifically DD) than a retrieving breed like a lab? I have had great success as a complete amateur woking with labs, and am training a friends female yellow, with awesome results. As many of you know I am torn between a lab and a draht. I want the water ability of the lab, but lately I have been doing a ton of grouse so the DD would be nice on point. I know DD do great on ducks, but I am afraid I won't be able to effectively train one. Labs have always been easy for me, but I have almost 0 experiences with pointers.

[Sharon]

Totally different trainer skills and training environments required . jmo

[ezzy333]

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

Pointer training is all about creating an independent dog while hunting.

[Gooseman07]

Just take SOME of what you know and throw the rest out the window.

[Grange]

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

No it is not.

[mask]

When training a pointer you don't need as big a club

[Del Lolo]

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

Pointer training is all about creating an independent dog while hunting.

Best joke of the day -- Thanks for the laugh ...

[Del Lolo]

I want the water ability of the lab, but lately I have been doing a ton of grouse so the DD would be nice on point.

Sounds like you should also look into a Pointing Lab

[birddog1968]

I'd say ezzys statement is fairly accurate as it pertains to a waterfowl dog compared to a upland pointing dog. If the dd is to be a navhda type then its similar.

[aulrich]

I don’t know the work plan for a retriever specialist. But my impression is that a retriever’s formal education starts earlier, a lot of a pointing dog’s first year is spend developing instincts, prey drive and independence. A strong argument can be made that the process is training but it does look very much like taking your dog for a walk, but it’s a walk with a purpose. The dog needs to have the confidence to spend 90% of his hunting time away from you,

Given house manners are the same, in that they start at day 1. But one little difference here , you had probably had the dog sit to get a meal or treat sit being the base command I had mine “whoa” stand still to do the same, some guys never teach to sit, some wait, some teach right away. It’s a concept that get some discussion in pointer circles. I waited but probably too long, I think force fetch is easier with a formalized sit.

My LM came home May 5th two years ago @ 8 weeks,
Took it easy the first 2 weeks short walks standard puppy stuff

His intro to the field started at 10 weeks traipsing through the bush at out cabin in northern Saskatchewan not what I would call puppy sized it was hard enough for me to walk  But really that first summer was an exercise in introducing him to ever increasing difficulty terrain. But I think I did that right because now he is a hard charger no matter the cover.Most of what we hunt is open country so his working range can extend to 300 yards. In bush he tightens up. up until 6 month he spent most of his time under foot by the time 9 months came he was running big.

Late June I hit my first NAVHDA training day there I did intro to birds and gun, along with intro to field the summer was used to get bird contacts so that he could bump and chase and figure out that pointing was the thing to do. Having access to pigeons can accelerate this process and since formal training needs them as well it’s highly recommended that if you have the space for a loft it’s worth the effort.

One thing I did not do that summer was “swamp romps” it’s happy time with ducks instead of upland but that only really hurt me in the short term since now I actually can’t keep him out of the water. But that does bring up a bit of a training difference, in the v-dog tests (NAVHDA and the German system ) there is a duck search test the NAVHDA one a shackled duck is hidden in the weeds of acre ish sized pond. The dog is by a blind and see you shoot but there is no fall. The dog is sent and is required to systematically search the pond for at least 10 min, WITH NO INPUT from the handler, it’s the independent search that counts but if the duck is found it must be to hand. I think the German system allows for hand signals.

Opening day in September I hauled him hunting but call it more of a walk with a dog and a gun, we got some birds but I only shot birds he pointed and if I got even with him or in front full steadiness was not required.

Winter and spring I worked formalized whoa, OB and got to force to pile.

Summer 2 I worked towards the UTP test so steady to flush, duck search, marked duck retrieve, dragged duck retrieve, managed a Prize 3 needed more steadiness , better OB and more piles.

Hunting season 2, more fun basically just upland and jump shooting ducks, not much for decoy hunting the dog really was not ready for it. He is starting to resemble a hunting dog.

Now, I am prepping for UT test in August so steady to fall and just more bigger on the duck side. But one add to that he must be prepared to field hunt geese this year. Lots of pigeon work, live ducks and chuckars, the live bird work is probably one other real big difference.

So that is the ramblings of a greenhorn trainer

[Trekmoor]

I went from trialing labs to trialing hunt-point-retrievers almost overnight. I found that all I had to do was to allow the H.P.R.'s more free running and more initiative or even to let them get a bit out of control.....I let them chase the game they found right off the field until the pointing instinct kicked in hard. That stage of the "training" was actually easier than training lab pups to walk to heel, sit/stay etc.

Then I added in a little bit more control to the HPR's hunts and points and all was well. I think the main attribute for an H.P.R. trainer is the ability to turn a blind eye to some of the things that would really worry you when training a lab. HPR's need more time to develop their more varied skills.
If you have access to game, especially wild game, training HPR's isn't really difficult....but you cannot train pointers to point using dummies. Not if you want to end up with a good hunting dog anyway.

Bill T.

[JKP]

I own DD but have had Vdogs in one form or another for 40+ years. A retriever you train...a Vdog you "shape". My DD are not as independent as a longtail...they have been bred to cover the middle ground..so if you get too obedience focused too early, you can take away from the independence. IMO...its better to expose the dog, do any obedience slowly as needed, and "round the corners" on the dog rather than get too heavy handed. When the dog is ready, formal FF training and breaking to WSF will cement the working relationship. I find many Vdog owners have young pups focusing too much on the handler...over training, talking at the pup too much and controlling what the pup does all the time. I have seen too many handlers get upset when a young dog doesn't do things right...remember, its all "data input", the learning process, doing it wrong and then figuring it out is much better. Young dogs do best when we allow them to learn and keep out of the way unless needed....trust the genetics. You can build the readiness to learn around the home with behavioral and conditioning basics. But young dogs should be taken where they can't get into danger and allowed to be young dogs. JMHO

[QuillGordon]

Patience, you'll need it... I've trained my own retriever's for thirty years. I could polish up a nice retriever for upland in twelve month's or less depending on the hound. My first pointing hound Creek is a GSP coming from what one might call Navhda lines. A pointing breed takes longer to develop. I read mucho literature & viewed a few DVD's from trainer's. Got into trouble a couple of times & fell back on some notable trainers inside bird dog forums for advice. In the end the absolute best training tool there is, is purchasing a well bred pup in the beginning.

One of the reason I changed breed's is due to this little masked bandito, we started hunting Chukar more and waterfowl less.



Good luck with your journey

[Minneguy]

So it sounds like I would need more patience lol. When you guys say obedience, do you mean all forms, or just hunt specific??

[Minneguy]

Thanks for all the insight guys, I don't quite know what todo with the information, but now I have some more info to ponder. It looks like the methods I use wouldn't necessarily be the best, but there may be some small amount of carry over.

[birddog1968]

If you LIKE to train a lab may be a better fit.

With a purely specialist bird dog you have to leave alot of what you train for in a lab go by the way side, People who come from labs, to say a pointer or setter. tend to try and over train a pointing dog (over training or being heavy handed with a setter or pointer can squash a dogs independence). Again if your hoping to use a DD for waterfowl and upland its not such a stretch as alot of the control work put on a lab relates to a DD, to a point.

If you'd like to see whats involved, I believe NAVHDA has a training book called the Green book......someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the book.

[Minneguy]

Birddog, it's the only kind of hunting dog I know how to work with. I might have to sacrifice a few grouse just so I could stay in my comfort zone lol. I have worked with labs, Aussies, collies and German shepherds. All of which take handling well.
A close friend of mine has a female gsp... Maybe I could borrow her for some practice to see if I am adaptable enough. Or maybe I could just borrow her for the hunt. Then again. If I borrow her and take him it won't be peace and quite while slipping through the woods. He is like a herd of elephants walking on bubble wrap.

[Minneguy]

I'll look into the green book to see if it gives me any insight. Thanks for the tip!

[Soarer31]

So it sounds like I would need more patience lol. When you guys say obedience, do you mean all forms, or just hunt specific??

The only training for my pointer I do voice and whistle is;
Heel;
Come;
Whoa;
Fetch;
Change direction;
Flush;
That's about it, the rest is in the breeding

[ezzy333]

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

Pointer training is all about creating an independent dog while hunting.

Best joke of the day -- Thanks for the laugh ...

Hey, you are welcome. Usually people laugh at something funny or ridiculous and not something that most people know and do. Regardless just glad I could brighten your day.

Ezzy

[DonF]

Been a long long time since I've done a lab but as I recall, the skills are the same, the functions change. You want a lab, normally, to go from here to there and bring back an object. You want it to go out after an object it didn't see fall. To get there will require a good program and consistently on your part. It will be best to read up on it first but lots of dogs are trained fly by night and make their owners happy. Now if you want a finished retriever, you can't do fly by night very well. To do those things most expect of a lab, obedience is paramount I believe. If you take it upland hunting and it runs wild, your not gonna get a whole lot of shots. Once you figure out what you want the dog to do and find a way to do it, consistency is the key. Pretty much like training ANY dog. keep in mind that the most important part of training a dog is knowing what you want , focusing on it and training toward it consistently.

If you stop and think about sending a dog on a blind, just telling him there's a dead bird out there don't cut it, you need to give him a line to go on. Not knowing where it is your also going to have to be able to give it instruction en-route. Now I never finished a lab, matter of fact, the few I had were meat dogs, period. But they never got out of gun range and they minded. They could take a line but after sending them, they were on their own. The up side to that was about all I hunted with them was ducks and I didn't shoot out of blinds, jumped them on puddles on the North shore of flathead lake. I don't have the patience for sitting in a blind! They did everything I wanted them to do but they would get laughed out at a field trial.

[Minneguy]

So it sounds like I would need more patience lol. When you guys say obedience, do you mean all forms, or just hunt specific??

The only training for my pointer I do voice and whistle is;
Heel;
Come;
Whoa;
Fetch;
Change direction;
Flush;
That's about it, the rest is in the breeding

Are you talking just for hunting, or is that everything?

[gonehuntin']

Books have been written on the two. It's a very involved topic. I suggest "The Orange Book". That has training for both in it.

[Minneguy]

Thanks! I'll order it tomorrow, I could use a good read.

[Soarer31]

So it sounds like I would need more patience lol. When you guys say obedience, do you mean all forms, or just hunt specific??

The only training for my pointer I do voice and whistle is;
Heel;
Come;
Whoa;
Fetch;
Change direction;
Flush;
That's about it, the rest is in the breeding

Are you talking just for hunting, or is that everything?

That's basically everything for a pointer,what more do you want?

[Minneguy]

Soarer31 I've always been a big fan of sit/stay/down for times when I want the dog to hang out for a second or longer. Last week I used my Aussie on "guard" to push a woodchuck back towards me so I could take care of business.

[Minneguy]

Soarer31, how often do you command the dog to flush? I think that's a really good thing to have, sometimes the brush is pretty thick!

[aulrich]

Not my blog, but on the topic.

http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2014 ... -what.html

[Minneguy]

Aulrich, thanks for posting! It was a good read

[Soarer31]

Here's a clip that Bill T posted up a while back , if you can can get your dog polished up like this, your pretty much home and hosed mate.
http://youtu.be/WNeeBDkPDPI

[jarbo03]

After years of a lab and a britt together, I studied the same thing when I purchased my WPG. Note that every dog is different, but I've seen a lot of things that carry over. On upland work, I do the same thing as I did with my britts. On retrieving, I do most of the same drills as I did my lab, but found it necessary to keep drills short and non repetitive. I have not moved on to advanced water work, I cast him to an area and let him do the rest, I keep handling to a minimum, focusing most on the original cast.

[Steve007]

The only training for my pointer I do voice and whistle is;
Heel;
Come;
Whoa;
Fetch;
Change direction;
Flush;
That's about it, the rest is in the breeding

Are you talking just for hunting, or is that everything?

That's basically everything for a pointer,what more do you want?[/quote]


Perhaps he has a non-full time kennel dog in mind.

[Fran Seagren]

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

Pointer training is all about creating an independent dog while hunting.

Best joke of the day -- Thanks for the laugh ...

Don't know why this is so funny - actually it's pretty accurate based on my experience. I've had both labs and pointing dogs for about 25 years. I'm definitely more experienced with labs than the "finished" pointing dogs. Of course nothing is black and white and dogs vary in trainability and it depends on how far you want to go with training. Some hunters don't care if their retriever/flushers are steady to flush and shot. And, some hunters don't care if their pointing dogs are either.

Although we do very little waterfowl hunting - almost exclusively upland hunting with both labs and pointy dogs, I train and compete my labs in hunt tests and some field trials - that is when I have a lab that's "good enough" to compete in the trials. Retriever field trials are not "real" hunting - I think someone once called them "a training contest." But, labs that can compete in retriever field trials are usually excellent waterfowl hunting dogs - even the trial "washouts" are usually some of the best hunting dogs.

The reason we've always had both retrievers(flushers) and pointing dogs is that we hunt pheasants as well as quail and ruffed grouse. Where we hunt, roosters are few and far between. They usually hang out in the thickest, nastiest cover and don't usually hold well for a pointing dog. So, "most" times our labs do better on the roosters. Even though our pointy dogs will get in the nasty cover, it's hard to keep track of them when we can't see them. Not to mention, try and flush up a rooster for the shot when the cover is so thick you can't even get your gun up. On quail, I would say our pointy guys and labs are just about equal at actually putting birds in front of the gun, but obviously the pointy guys cover WAY more ground.

When it comes to ruffed grouse, it totally depends on the dog. Right now, surprisingly, our youngest, a brittany("Seven") not quite two years old, pointed/found more grouse this past season than any of our other dogs. (2 labs and 2 red setters). And, just to keep us wondering, my red setter, "Robert" actually found/pointed more roosters these past two years than the labs! ( I'm talking wild birds.)

We haven't hunted chukar at all these past few years, but in the past, the pointy guys win at that game - hands down.

Meanwhile, I'm still training both pointers and retrievers . . . . because I love it.

[Grange]

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

Pointer training is all about creating an independent dog while hunting.

Best joke of the day -- Thanks for the laugh ...

Don't know why this is so funny - actually it's pretty accurate based on my experience. I've had both labs and pointing dogs for about 25 years. I'm definitely more experienced with labs than the "finished" pointing dogs. Of course nothing is black and white and dogs vary in trainability and it depends on how far you want to go with training. Some hunters don't care if their retriever/flushers are steady to flush and shot. And, some hunters don't care if their pointing dogs are either.

Although we do very little waterfowl hunting - almost exclusively upland hunting with both labs and pointy dogs, I train and compete my labs in hunt tests and some field trials - that is when I have a lab that's "good enough" to compete in the trials. Retriever field trials are not "real" hunting - I think someone once called them "a training contest." But, labs that can compete in retriever field trials are usually excellent waterfowl hunting dogs - even the trial "washouts" are usually some of the best hunting dogs.

The reason we've always had both retrievers(flushers) and pointing dogs is that we hunt pheasants as well as quail and ruffed grouse. Where we hunt, roosters are few and far between. They usually hang out in the thickest, nastiest cover and don't usually hold well for a pointing dog. So, "most" times our labs do better on the roosters. Even though our pointy dogs will get in the nasty cover, it's hard to keep track of them when we can't see them. Not to mention, try and flush up a rooster for the shot when the cover is so thick you can't even get your gun up. On quail, I would say our pointy guys and labs are just about equal at actually putting birds in front of the gun, but obviously the pointy guys cover WAY more ground.

When it comes to ruffed grouse, it totally depends on the dog. Right now, surprisingly, our youngest, a brittany("Seven") not quite two years old, pointed/found more grouse this past season than any of our other dogs. (2 labs and 2 red setters). And, just to keep us wondering, my red setter, "Robert" actually found/pointed more roosters these past two years than the labs! ( I'm talking wild birds.)

We haven't hunted chukar at all these past few years, but in the past, the pointy guys win at that game - hands down.

Meanwhile, I'm still training both pointers and retrievers . . . . because I love it.

So you train you labs to have complete control while hunting? Why on God's green earth would you do that especially for upland?

[ezzy333]

To keep them in gun range is the main reason.

Ezzy

[birddog1968]

Why wouldn't you grange?

[mountaindogs]

agree with Ezzy one this one. We all know there are always lots of exceptions to everything, but as a general rule you need to let your pointing dog develop independence to go find. And you usually end up holding in your retriever tight in the upland and doing way more stay the go in a duck blind or dove field.
The versatile dogs are certainly closer to the middle of this continuum of TOTAL INDEPENDENCE <--------------------------------------------------->TOTAL CONTROL with no dog truly achieving either end and certainly I do not think you would want them to. Every good hunting dog needs both. But a pointing dogs leans left and the retriever leans right.

Story:
Once sold a GSP puppy to a friend who sent that puppy at 6 months old to a lab trainer. Lab trainer said this dog is really not very good, and he just will not catch on to all his obedience and just resists all my yard work. We took the dog back to see what the deal was, took him out to romp, he worked the field great. So we put him on some birds and he held pretty well and with in about 3 days was holding nicely to flush. We collar conditioned him to the whistle, to take hand signals, gun conditioned him, and called his owner in a week (this was pretty fast but the dog was just doing great - it was there already). Took him hunting and said here is your GSP: Hunting the field, coming to whistle, working with the handler, pointing birds, even retrieving them and he is 7 months old. What is the problem? He is a pretty nice dog. :roll:

Story:
Once had another acquaintance who had trained 3 of his own labs to SH or MH level. He aquired a vizsla and when I met that dog at 6 months he was struggling with keeping it heeling around ALL the time but the dog wanted to forge ahead which he would correct, and had the dog sitting on platform for LONG stretches of the day, but the dog kept standing (which he would correct). I shook my head at this. I suggested to him as nicely as I could muster that some pointing dog folks prefer to let the dog build independence before all the intense obedience. He told me that his dog had way to much already and he was just going to have to be more firm when they got home. I have no end to this story. wish I knew how things had turned out. Hope he was right and the V. had enough innner whatever to make it through that and get into the field running hard, where he obviously wanted to be.

[mountaindogs]

Oh extra story: Our first lab I trained the obedience, (not so well in these days but we all start somewhere :roll: ) But my hubby used to let her roam. She would get really bad about bolting off when you were not paying attention even when hunting, and exploring if the duck hunting was slow. I used to nag him on this that he needed to WATCH her or tether her, do NOT let her get away with this! But he would argue a zillion reasons why that was not feasible in this or that situation. And she used to make him so so mad, when she would bolt off like that. She'd come back, but she'd flare ducks on her way back in because he usually didn't notice she was gone until the ducks started flying again. Anyway, on this second lab we now have he has finally taken my advice and kept him from roaming around and watches him better. Not as well as I would like, but much much better....

[Fran Seagren]

I train my labs to the highest level there is. I train with experienced "field trialers" as well as "hunt test" groups. AKC retriever field trials don't involve/require any kind of upland hunting, nor does AKC hunt tests, but NAHRA and UKC retriever hunt tests do in the upper levels. In the "off" season, I run my labs in retriever events - that's one of the reasons I train to that level.

The other reason is for upland hunting - my first love. 1.) As previous poster stated - to keep them in gun range. A hard going retriever/flusher can get on a moving rooster and easily bust them out of gun range if not trained to stay close. 2.) A wounded rooster can fly/glide a LONG way off. Example: Two roosters flushed. My husband shot dead the first and wounded the second. I saw it drop a leg, so knew once it came down, it wouldn't go anywhere. I watched from where I had been hunting and saw it come down across an irrigation ditch about 500 yds away. The lab I had with me wasn't "fully" trained yet. I wasn't far from our truck and went back and got "Jonz." I told him it was "Way out!" I lined him up and sent him on a "blind retrieve." He crossed the irrigation ditch and was off line a few degrees. I blew one stop whistle and gave a "right/back" cast. He kept that line all the way to the bird. I could barely see him through the cover. But as I watched him turn around up on the berm, the sun was setting behind him and I could see the rooster tail as he held the bird. (I cheered!) Now, honestly, that situation doesn't happen very often. But, similar, less "amazing" retrieves and handles happen all the time. 3.) I can "direct" (handle) the labs into pieces of cover very easily. 4.) I can have the labs sit/stay on one side of a piece of likely cover and using hand signals get them to "push" any roosters my way. 5.) Sit to flush - steady to shot - especially on quail, singles. Those little buggers come up fast and LOW. If a dog is jumping around or chasing them, it's hard to get a shot - especially me that is not a good shot anyway.

Like I said in my previous post - I love training dogs and spending time with them. Not everyone likes training that much, or they don't have the time, or they don't see the need. I'm certainly not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do regarding training their dogs. I'm just saying what I do and why. Meanwhile, I'm off to a AmField pointing dog trial in Sunnyside Wa tomorrow. Hopefully, Robert (red setter) and Seven (Brittany) will behave themselves.

[Grange]

To keep them in gun range is the main reason.

Ezzy

Keeping a dog in gun range is far from total control. The retrievers I grew up with and my current retriever often stay in gun range without having to whistle or call them in. There is a lot more cooperation than control.

[Grange]

Why wouldn't you grange?

The same reason I don't want to totally control my setter.

[Grange]

I train my labs to the highest level there is. I train with experienced "field trialers" as well as "hunt test" groups. AKC retriever field trials don't involve/require any kind of upland hunting, nor does AKC hunt tests, but NAHRA and UKC retriever hunt tests do in the upper levels. In the "off" season, I run my labs in retriever events - that's one of the reasons I train to that level.

The other reason is for upland hunting - my first love. 1.) As previous poster stated - to keep them in gun range. A hard going retriever/flusher can get on a moving rooster and easily bust them out of gun range if not trained to stay close. 2.) A wounded rooster can fly/glide a LONG way off. Example: Two roosters flushed. My husband shot dead the first and wounded the second. I saw it drop a leg, so knew once it came down, it wouldn't go anywhere. I watched from where I had been hunting and saw it come down across an irrigation ditch about 500 yds away. The lab I had with me wasn't "fully" trained yet. I wasn't far from our truck and went back and got "Jonz." I told him it was "Way out!" I lined him up and sent him on a "blind retrieve." He crossed the irrigation ditch and was off line a few degrees. I blew one stop whistle and gave a "right/back" cast. He kept that line all the way to the bird. I could barely see him through the cover. But as I watched him turn around up on the berm, the sun was setting behind him and I could see the rooster tail as he held the bird. (I cheered!) Now, honestly, that situation doesn't happen very often. But, similar, less "amazing" retrieves and handles happen all the time. 3.) I can "direct" (handle) the labs into pieces of cover very easily. 4.) I can have the labs sit/stay on one side of a piece of likely cover and using hand signals get them to "push" any roosters my way. 5.) Sit to flush - steady to shot - especially on quail, singles. Those little buggers come up fast and LOW. If a dog is jumping around or chasing them, it's hard to get a shot - especially me that is not a good shot anyway.

Like I said in my previous post - I love training dogs and spending time with them. Not everyone likes training that much, or they don't have the time, or they don't see the need. I'm certainly not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do regarding training their dogs. I'm just saying what I do and why. Meanwhile, I'm off to a AmField pointing dog trial in Sunnyside Wa tomorrow. Hopefully, Robert (red setter) and Seven (Brittany) will behave themselves.

I also trained my retirevers to a very high level. the retrievers I grew up with and the one I currently own were all hard charging dogs. Training a retriever to handle is nice when tough retrieve is nice, but allowing the dog to use its talents to find birds is a lot nicer.

[Fran Seagren]

I also trained my retirevers to a very high level. the retrievers I grew up with and the one I currently own were all hard charging dogs. Training a retriever to handle is nice when tough retrieve is nice, but allowing the dog to use its talents to find birds is a lot nicer.

Training a dog to stay within gun range does not teach it to hunt. Whether it's retrievers/flushers or pointing dogs - they learn to hunt by using their own skills - as you said. I didn't think that's what we were talking about. We take them to areas where there are birds and they figure it out by being exposed to the birds and cover.

The original poster wanted to hunt both upland and waterfowl and was asking/discussing the training involved in both types of hunting and dogs - if I remember. I probably should go back and re-read it.

I didn't mean to say someone else didn't/doesn't have a hard charging retriever that stays within gun range. The reason I train my retrievers to "a high level" is because I also run them in hunt tests and field trials where that type of training is required.

If we were all sitting around talking dogs and hunting "in person" we wouldn't have all these misunderstandings.

[mountaindogs]

probably the whole issue is over the use of the word "complete"
I am sure you could remove it for the point to be more accurate.

[Grange]

probably the whole issue is over the use of the word "complete"
I am sure you could remove it for the point to be more accurate.

I would still have an issue with the statement. The words that make the following statement nonsense are "while hunting".

Retriever training is all about complete control of your dog while hunting.

Pointer training is all about creating an independent dog while hunting.

When I hunted and currently hunt my retriever(s) I want an independent dog. I don't want my retriever looking to me for direction it much like I don't want my setter looking to me to tell it which way to go. Just because the retriever is in gun range doesn't mean it shouldn't be independent.

[birddog1968]

Labs are built and wired to take all that control work without taking away their independence in hunt mode.....I want that control for all the other things a lab is good for as well as after the shot ....eg honoring a pointing dog, accepting help on tough retrieves....the control is also cooperation and trust that I may know something they don't...and its how I can, on the other hand, do 300 yard cast blinds with my English pointer.