Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

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RichK
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Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:01 pm

Anyone able to give me a quick run down on the difference between a field trial and a hunt test?

.

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Post by birddog1968 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:36 pm

A trial is a competition, a test is exactly that, testing to a standard

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Re:

Post by RichK » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:42 pm

birddog1968 wrote:A trial is a competition, a test is exactly that, testing to a standard
How is the scoring done for a trial?

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Post by birddog1968 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:52 pm

Some are scored most are judged.....nstra scores on a scale up to 50 and 100 for find/point, retrieve, ground application and obedience.

BDC AND UFTA score on birds found, shells not used and time not used ....

AF, AFTCA, NBHA, USCSDA, are purely judged.

Might take some time and look up those organizations and read their rules.

I will leave AKC trials for some one else to comment on as I am not very familiar with AKC trials.

AKC also implements hunt tests as well as NAVHDA.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:01 pm

I would start by reading this. https://www.akc.org/events/field_trials ... /index.cfm This will give you a pretty good foundation that you will see carry over to other venues.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:57 pm

Canadian Kennel Club trials
competition/judged by 2 judges

See page 25/10.4 for what a judge is looking for:

http://www.gspalberta.ca/Resources/313- ... Trials.pdf
......................

tests( marked according to a standard)

What is marked:
start at page 16
http://www.ckc.ca/en/Portals/0/pdf/Rule ... %20Dog.pdf
Last edited by Sharon on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by Gordon Guy » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:14 pm

AKC Trials are judged. In trials there is generally a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place and sometimes 4th. Generally. And in Tests all the dogs either pass or fail based on pre-established criteria. I think the people who participate are a little different for each type of events but that may be just my humble uneducated opinion.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:05 pm

Gordon Guy wrote:AKC Trials are judged. In trials there is generally a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place and sometimes 4th. Generally. And in Tests all the dogs either pass or fail based on pre-established criteria. I think the people who participate are a little different for each type of events but that may be just my humble uneducated opinion.
What would be the difference in who you would see in an AKC field trial vs. an AKC hunt test, in your opinion?

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:20 pm

RichK wrote:
Gordon Guy wrote:AKC Trials are judged. In trials there is generally a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place and sometimes 4th. Generally. And in Tests all the dogs either pass or fail based on pre-established criteria. I think the people who participate are a little different for each type of events but that may be just my humble uneducated opinion.
What would be the difference in who you would see in an AKC field trial vs. an AKC hunt test, in your opinion?
In an AKC walking gundog stake, there might not be much difference between that and a typical Senior hunter test performance. I would expect to see a little more independent search(and range) in the walking field trial dog's performance. In a master hunter test, you may see more independent search and, just as likely, you may see a much more controlled search.

In an AKC horseback gundog stake the dog's performance will usually be a bit more independent and a bit more reaching than the walking gundog, as well as a good bit more ground speed,simply because the dog can maintain contact with its handle at much greater distances, since the mounted handler is now ten feet tall and able to "walk" at about five and a half miles per hour. In an AKC all age stake, there is a good deal of difference to be expected between that type of performance and that of a hunt test. Much greater independence is expected, much more control is surrendered and much greater latitude is accorded to the dog.

At least that is what I see in my area.

RayG

PS -

In field trials, you can only get in trouble with a back, so most folks avoid backing situations when they can. The old adage is that: "you cannot win with a back, but you sure can lose without one." A back is NOT required in a field trial... unless the dog come into view of a dog that is on rigid point. Then the dog MUST back or it is disqualified.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:53 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
RichK wrote:
Gordon Guy wrote:AKC Trials are judged. In trials there is generally a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place and sometimes 4th. Generally. And in Tests all the dogs either pass or fail based on pre-established criteria. I think the people who participate are a little different for each type of events but that may be just my humble uneducated opinion.
What would be the difference in who you would see in an AKC field trial vs. an AKC hunt test, in your opinion?
In an AKC walking gundog stake, there might not be much difference between that and a typical Senior hunter test performance. I would expect to see a little more independent search(and range) in the walking field trial dog's performance. In a master hunter test, you may see more independent search and, just as likely, you may see a much more controlled search.

In an AKC horseback gundog stake the dog's performance will usually be a bit more independent and a bit more reaching than the walking gundog, as well as a good bit more ground speed,simply because the dog can maintain contact with its handle at much greater distances, since the mounted handler is now ten feet tall and able to "walk" at about five and a half miles per hour. In an AKC all age stake, there is a good deal of difference to be expected between that type of performance and that of a hunt test. Much greater independence is expected, much more control is surrendered and much greater latitude is accorded to the dog.

At least that is what I see in my area.

RayG

PS -

In field trials, you can only get in trouble with a back, so most folks avoid backing situations when they can. The old adage is that: "you cannot win with a back, but you sure can lose without one." A back is NOT required in a field trial... unless the dog come into view of a dog that is on rigid point. Then the dog MUST back or it is disqualified.

Should a dog be trained to a SH level before entering into field trials then?

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by deseeker » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:40 pm

You can enter a non broke dog in AKC puppy or derby(less than 2 years old). All adult stakes you will need a broke dog in order to stand a chance of placing for a ribbon.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:56 pm

deseeker wrote:You can enter a non broke dog in AKC puppy or derby(less than 2 years old). All adult stakes you will need a broke dog in order to stand a chance of placing for a ribbon.
Derby is what I was interested as my pup is 15 months and I'm currently working on breaking him. Does a dog who breaks and chases flushed birds hurt your "score" in a derby trial?

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:46 pm

RichK wrote:
deseeker wrote:You can enter a non broke dog in AKC puppy or derby(less than 2 years old). All adult stakes you will need a broke dog in order to stand a chance of placing for a ribbon.
Derby is what I was interested as my pup is 15 months and I'm currently working on breaking him. Does a dog who breaks and chases flushed birds hurt your "score" in a derby trial?
Each judge sees things a little different, but if the dog can be called off the chase and then resumes hunting, that should be just fine. If the dog chases and then does not come back...that ain't gonna work.

Oh and forget the concept of "scores' when thinking of field trials. Many experienced judges have in their minds a picture, a concept of the "ideal"... of the "perfect" dog and how it will handle each situation. They then compare each of the performances in front of them to that "ideal". The dog that comes closest to that ideal should be placed first, the next closest placed second and so on.

I like running under those kinds of judges because they look for the positives...always looking for the dog that does the most things the way they should be done.

It is a whole lot easier(and less controversial) to look for flaws and to knock a dog down for a "mistake" than to put up a dog that made some mistakes, but who also did some things that made you sit up, look hard and smile.

RayG

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by Sharon » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:16 pm

[quote="RichK
Derby is what I was interested as my pup is 15 months and I'm currently working on breaking him. Does a dog who breaks and chases flushed birds hurt your "score" in a derby trial?[/quote]

....................................

No scoring , ( see Ray's post), and according to the standards a derby does NOT have to be steady to flush , BUT in my experience , the dogs that are steady to flush and shot at derby age will be judged more favourably - right or wrong - and there seems to be more and more steady to flush derbies. Does this cause trainers to "hurry up" their dog's training" too fast"? That's a question to wonder about.

If yours breaks and takes the other dog with him , the other handler may be ticked, but DON'T let that bother you. It's part of the game we all have to deal with(both sides). "I'm sure he's broke" derbies break sometimes too. :)

"Should a dog be trained to a SH level before entering into field trials then?" quote RichK

Differing opinions on that.

Some will say yes. - "I don't want an unbroken derby screwing up my dog."

I say , go for it. :) Enjoy the event and learn.

** Does depend on the event though imo. I wouldn't enter my unbroken derby in a 50 derby event probably, but a weekend trial of maybe 10-12 derbies I would enjoy .

I remember entering one of my dogs in a derby, at 10 months, knowing she wasn't broke. On bird 1 , she was steady to flush and shot. No one was more surprised than me. :D I still got some flak though for .. "You should have had her in shooting dog." :evil: ONe thing is for sure - you can't please all the people all the time . Do what you want and enjoy yourself. 8)

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by Sharon » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:35 pm

[quote="RayGubernat

" ...................In field trials, you can only get in trouble with a back, so most folks avoid backing situations when they can. The old adage is that: "you cannot win with a back, but you sure can lose without one." A back is NOT required in a field trial... unless the dog come into view of a dog that is on rigid point. Then the dog MUST back or it is disqualified.[/quote]
.......................

Do derbies have to back at AKC trials? Not so in Canadian Kennel Club derby trials. I can't remember for AF derby trials. Perhaps someone could remind me.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:51 pm

Thanks for the advice. I am going to get his JH finished up next month and then I think I will try some field trials with him while we're working toward his SH test for this fall.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:57 pm

It helps if you know the judges your running under. I know judges that look for All Age Derbies and don't consider a good gun dog / shooting dog prospect. It's just the way it is...so be aware and don't waste your entry fee if the "dominate" judge is an AA Judge. No disrespect to anyone. Some judges want to see "broke" Derbies so be aware of who they are. If you have a "broke" Derby it works to your advantage. I have had it work for me and against me so I am not "taking shots" at anyone.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RayGubernat » Thu May 01, 2014 7:45 am

Sharon wrote:[quote="RayGubernat

" ...................In field trials, you can only get in trouble with a back, so most folks avoid backing situations when they can. The old adage is that: "you cannot win with a back, but you sure can lose without one." A back is NOT required in a field trial... unless the dog come into view of a dog that is on rigid point. Then the dog MUST back or it is disqualified.
.......................

Do derbies have to back at AKC trials? Not so in Canadian Kennel Club derby trials. I can't remember for AF derby trials. Perhaps someone could remind me.[/quote]

Sharon - I was speaking to broke dog stakes. Derbies don't "have to" do much besides run and find birds.

RayG

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RoostersMom » Sun May 04, 2014 6:54 pm

Rich,
Just an opinion...but I wouldn't run a non broke dog in derby or puppy if pen reared birds are released. Way too easy for the pup to catch birds. That would make it all the harder to break the dog.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by Fun dog » Sun May 04, 2014 7:43 pm

Same with Jr Hunt tests.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Sun May 04, 2014 7:46 pm

He is pretty well broke up until the point of the flush. Once the bird flushes, game on. I'm working on steadying him though.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by slistoe » Mon May 05, 2014 6:42 am

RoostersMom wrote:Rich,
Just an opinion...but I wouldn't run a non broke dog in derby or puppy if pen reared birds are released. Way too easy for the pup to catch birds. That would make it all the harder to break the dog.
If everyone followed this advice, the stakes would never have any entries.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by PntrRookie » Mon May 05, 2014 10:18 am

RoostersMom wrote:Rich, Just an opinion...but I wouldn't run a non broke dog in derby or puppy...
Then why not just run them in a SD/AA broke dog stake?

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Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by ACooper » Mon May 05, 2014 10:20 am

slistoe wrote:
RoostersMom wrote:Rich,
Just an opinion...but I wouldn't run a non broke dog in derby or puppy if pen reared birds are released. Way too easy for the pup to catch birds. That would make it all the harder to break the dog.
If everyone followed this advice, the stakes would never have any entries.
It's rare we can make a puppy or derby stake in my area.

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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Mon May 05, 2014 10:55 am

Run what ya brung, and let the judges sort it out. You may be surprised.

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Re:

Post by Elkhunter » Mon May 05, 2014 5:02 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Run what ya brung, and let the judges sort it out. You may be surprised.
+1 million

I just show up and cross my fingers. Like this weekend in Montana when I lost my dog in the all age and found him pointing a porcupine. Porcupine won, we did not.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Wed May 14, 2014 9:22 pm

If I get into field trials, am I going to need a horse?

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by PntrRookie » Thu May 15, 2014 5:08 am

RichK wrote:If I get into field trials, am I going to need a horse?
No. There are plenty of walking field trials - especially in the northeast. Grouse trials, NBHA or US Complete...those are all walking. Be forewarned, you may catch the bug and "want" a horse. But NO...trials do not require a horse!

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by shags » Thu May 15, 2014 6:58 am

RichK wrote:If I get into field trials, am I going to need a horse?
You can walk in any AKC stake, too. Be aware that if you choose to walk in a horseback stake, your dog will be judged as a horseback dog. But there are walking stakes around too. Check the AKC events calendar and look at all the trials in your area, not only GSP clubs. Lots of clubs offer all breed stakes. If you are located in western NY state, you might check out what is available at the grounds in Polk, Pa.

Keep in mind that Spring AKC trial season is pretty much over in the east and paperwork for fall trials won't be sent in until probably August /Sept. So if you come up empty on the calendar now, check again later in the summer or early fall.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Thu May 15, 2014 7:00 am

shags wrote:
RichK wrote:If I get into field trials, am I going to need a horse?
You can walk in any AKC stake, too. Be aware that if you choose to walk in a horseback stake, your dog will be judged as a horseback dog. But there are walking stakes around too. Check the AKC events calendar and look at all the trials in your area, not only GSP clubs. Lots of clubs offer all breed stakes. If you are located in western NY state, you might check out what is available at the grounds in Polk, Pa.

Keep in mind that Spring AKC trial season is pretty much over in the east and paperwork for fall trials won't be sent in until probably August /Sept. So if you come up empty on the calendar now, check again later in the summer or early fall.
That was going to be my next question since I didn't see any events listed on the AKC's website for field trials. When do the field trial seasons usually start and end?

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by shags » Thu May 15, 2014 7:55 am

Depends on state regulations. In my area, if I want to do some driving, from August until November, then from February or March until May.

If you look at the events calendar, there might be an option for events in the past year. Those might give you an idea what/when to look for, since AKC trials generally run on a rotating calendar - clubs hold their events the same weekends of the same months every year.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RichK » Fri May 16, 2014 9:10 pm

I found a field trial in two weeks that's about five hours away and I'm thinking about enter my dog in it. Basically just so we can see what they are about and it will make it obvious where we need to focus our time on training.

The event is listed as a three day event. Is this the same format as a hunt test in the sense that each day is a separate competition?

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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri May 16, 2014 9:20 pm

The ft will take 3 days to finish all the stakes.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by RayGubernat » Fri May 16, 2014 9:39 pm

RichK wrote:I found a field trial in two weeks that's about five hours away and I'm thinking about enter my dog in it. Basically just so we can see what they are about and it will make it obvious where we need to focus our time on training.

The event is listed as a three day event. Is this the same format as a hunt test in the sense that each day is a separate competition?
Go to the club website and download a copy of the actual premium. It will tell you the order in which the stakes will be run and may well give you some guidance as to when individual stakes may start. Often , for example, they will run an all age stake on Friday, and one of the following stakes will say something like "Not before Saturday at 8 AM" or some such.

If you have never been to one before, I might suggest leaving the dogs at home and go and check it out. Maybe even stay over one night.

You will learn a ton by just watching what goes on.

RayG

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:01 pm

Congrats on your recent win Ray....

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Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Fri May 16, 2014 10:02 pm

If you're gonna drive 5 hours I would stay for all 3 days. You have run your dog in hunt tests so the switch to a ft won't be much different. I would definitely enter him in puppy and derby.

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Re: Field Trials vs. Hunt Tests

Post by shags » Sat May 17, 2014 7:33 am

RichK wrote:I found a field trial in two weeks that's about five hours away and I'm thinking about enter my dog in it. Basically just so we can see what they are about and it will make it obvious where we need to focus our time on training.

The event is listed as a three day event. Is this the same format as a hunt test in the sense that each day is a separate competition?
I'm not sure what you mean about separate competition, but in field trials you won't have a open puppy stake each day, a an amateur derby stake each day, etc. ( an exception will be the rare times when a couple of clubs might share grounds, each running their own trial in cooperation with each other). Look at the premium list and see the order of running of stakes to see which ones you can schedule for. Be aware that with some formats, that order can be changed, so you might want to call the secretary to verify when you enter, and also to request an email or call after the drawing if the order of stakes has been changed. Sometimes things get moved around because entries are lacking or exceeding what was expected.

Since you want to observe, you should plan to watch as many stakes as possible. You can discern the progression of training and performance required from juvenile stakes to broke dog stakes. If this is a horseback trial, find out if a wrangler will have gallery horses available and budget for renting one for the day. If it's a walking trial, you can walk along as gallery. If you're able to watch an entire stake, try to place the dogs first through fourth, and see if your opinion matches those of the judges.

Don't be afraid to introduce yourself as a noob to folks. Talking to lots of people will help you glean information about lots of things. Bear in mind that if you glom onto just one person, you're taking a chance the he/she is objective and knowledgeable or maybe not so much. So try to talk to several.

Don't sit on your hands deciding to enter or not since some trials fill pretty fast and you don't want to be shut out. Call the secretary after the drawing to make sure you got in or that there were enough entries to hold the trial. Sometimes the club will take the time to notify entrants about that, but mostly it's your responsibility.

Travel safely and have a great time.

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