Misuse of an E collar?

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kibafang90
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Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kibafang90 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:09 pm

Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay? Only certain situations?
Some people read this forum.
Opinions?

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RichK » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:14 pm

kibafang90 wrote:Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay? Only certain situations?
Some people read this forum.
Opinions?
Just using the term "lighting a dog up" sounds like someone isn't familiar with the use of the collar.


I have a Tri-Tronics G3 Pro 500 and usually use medium 1 on my dog for most training. If we're working with birds I usually have to use low 2 to get through to him.

Any of the 1 level stims I can't feel when I attach the collar to myself. The 2 level stims I can feel but cause no pain/discomfort to me.

I find the e collar to be a very humane and effective tool.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kibafang90 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:38 pm

RichK wrote:
kibafang90 wrote:Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay? Only certain situations?
Some people read this forum.
Opinions?
Just using the term "lighting a dog up" sounds like someone isn't familiar with the use of the collar.


I have a Tri-Tronics G3 Pro 500 and usually use medium 1 on my dog for most training. If we're working with birds I usually have to use low 2 to get through to him.

Any of the 1 level stims I can't feel when I attach the collar to myself. The 2 level stims I can feel but cause no pain/discomfort to me.

I find the e collar to be a very humane and effective tool.
If i had a quarter for every time one of the local ecollar users bloated about "lighting that dog up". I would be richer than money itself.
Have you ever though that different areas worldwide may say things differently :roll:

MAX level 100 on collar. Felt a lower level on the collar myself and screamed something my mother would slap me about.

Anyways. Im looking for advice through PM on topic matter.
Could you be the one i could chat with?

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RichK » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:53 pm

kibafang90 wrote:
RichK wrote:
kibafang90 wrote:Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay? Only certain situations?
Some people read this forum.
Opinions?
Just using the term "lighting a dog up" sounds like someone isn't familiar with the use of the collar.


I have a Tri-Tronics G3 Pro 500 and usually use medium 1 on my dog for most training. If we're working with birds I usually have to use low 2 to get through to him.

Any of the 1 level stims I can't feel when I attach the collar to myself. The 2 level stims I can feel but cause no pain/discomfort to me.

I find the e collar to be a very humane and effective tool.
If i had a quarter for every time one of the local ecollar users bloated about "lighting that dog up". I would be richer than money itself.
Have you ever though that different areas worldwide may say things differently :roll:

MAX level 100 on collar. Felt a lower level on the collar myself and screamed something my mother would slap me about.

Anyways. Im looking for advice through PM on topic matter.
Could you be the one i could chat with?
I'm far from experienced on the subject or just about any other subject when it comes to running gun dogs. The only stuff I know is advice I've received from those on this forum or what I've learned through trial and error over the past year.

I think my dog's reaction to seeing the e-collar speaks for itself. He would put it on himself, if he could.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Sharon » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:51 pm

I don't think there is ever a need for it at that level, and I don't know why they put those levels on the collar. I can trash break a dog without going anywhere that high. Considering they have been banned in Britain and Quebec , if we keep using words like" light up and shock collar" , we will be fighting the same battle. It's a training collar and an effective tool when used wisely.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kninebirddog » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:25 pm

I do know of a few dogs that will "pay" the price to do what they want and will go through the highest setting ...
when it comes to avoidance training I do use the high settings as I want the dog to know for instance that the snake just bit them and that it isn't worth a repeat..but again I have come across a couple dogs over the years that all they wanted to do was eat the snake for biting them :roll:

As for regular training always use the lowest setting a dog will Respond to not React to

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Trekmoor » Thu May 01, 2014 1:54 am

Just to correct one small point. The e-collar is only banned in Wales not in all of Britain. An awkward situation exists in the rest of Britain for if anyone were foolish enough to habitually have an e-collar on his dog he would be very likely to be criticised ...or worse ....by ordinary folk he met while out with the dog. It is strongly frowned upon for a dog to wear an E-collar while out shooting by the hunters themselves, especially by those with dogs that do not wear an e-collar, which is just about everybody.

It is a brave or stupid man who would take a dog to a shoot here with the dog wearing an e-collar. That man would possibly be told never to return to the shoot. E-collar use here is very infrequent ,it is normally only used on sheep chasing dogs.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by rinker » Thu May 01, 2014 8:48 am

I have a tritronics pro 500, I do not recall using the highest setting. I might do it in a dangerous situation, like a dog running a deer towards a road.

My collar has 6 levels and then a low, medium and high in each level. I use a 2 low for most yard working situations. I usually go to a 3 low in the field. 4 low is generally as high as I ever go.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Sharon » Thu May 01, 2014 2:20 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Just to correct one small point. The e-collar is only banned in Wales not in all of Britain. An awkward situation exists in the rest of Britain for if anyone were foolish enough to habitually have an e-collar on his dog he would be very likely to be criticised ...or worse ....by ordinary folk he met while out with the dog. It is strongly frowned upon for a dog to wear an E-collar while out shooting by the hunters themselves, especially by those with dogs that do not wear an e-collar, which is just about everybody.

It is a brave or stupid man who would take a dog to a shoot here with the dog wearing an e-collar. That man would possibly be told never to return to the shoot. E-collar use here is very infrequent ,it is normally only used on sheep chasing dogs.

Bill T.
Thanks for clarifying that. If I meet anyone from the "general public" when the dog is wearing an e collar, I tell them it is a "locator collar", in case the dog gets lost. :)... which it also is.... :wink:

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by polmaise » Thu May 01, 2014 4:01 pm

Sharon wrote:
Thanks for clarifying that. If I meet anyone from the "general public" when the dog is wearing an e collar, I tell them it is a "locator collar", in case the dog gets lost. :)... which it also is.... :wink:
Are you sure your real name isn't Judy ? :lol:

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu May 01, 2014 7:08 pm

"Light him up", "Burn Him", "Fry him", "Nick Him",; you get the idea. Yet what do they really mean? If you tell a client to run his collar on "3", they all mean nail him with "3". Or 2. Or 6. Depends on the situation, depends on the dog. Trash breaking is always the highest setting. Some dogs may react violently to a 2, some react not at all to a 6. Depends.

If you're a wall flower, those terms may bother you. If you've been around dogs all your life they don't phase you.

As with all corrections, the correction is dictated by the crime. Some dogs are murderers, some petty thieves.

On every dog I've ever trained, I've at one time or another used every level of correction. Depends.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Soarer31 » Thu May 01, 2014 9:43 pm

Trekmoor wrote:Just to correct one small point. The e-collar is only banned in Wales not in all of Britain. An awkward situation exists in the rest of Britain for if anyone were foolish enough to habitually have an e-collar on his dog he would be very likely to be criticised ...or worse ....by ordinary folk he met while out with the dog. It is strongly frowned upon for a dog to wear an E-collar while out shooting by the hunters themselves, especially by those with dogs that do not wear an e-collar, which is just about everybody.

It is a brave or stupid man who would take a dog to a shoot here with the dog wearing an e-collar. That man would possibly be told never to return to the shoot. E-collar use here is very infrequent ,it is normally only used on sheep chasing dogs.

Bill T.
Betcha the ones doing the most criticising have got them hidden in the closet !!

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Trekmoor » Fri May 02, 2014 4:43 am

It is certain that some British field trailers (especially retriever trailers ???) do have e-collars but I have only met one who openly admitted he had a collar and used it for purposes other than preventing sheep chases. It would ruin the reputation of a British field trailer if it were known he was a habitual user of e-collars. It would be assumed the man was a poor dog trainer .....or that his dog(s) were too "hard" to make useful gundogs without the use of an e-collar.

It is extremely difficult to learn good e-collar usage here. Since almost nobody admits to using one there are no books or films about how to use them..... not that I am aware of anyway.
As I have said before in other threads, my original main reason for joining this forum was to learn more about proper e-collar usage and it's applications to purposes other than just preventing sheep chases.

I once advised a lady on a British forum with a sheep chasing wirehaired pointer to try using an e-collar to stop the chases. I got dogs abuse from some of the other forum members for describing how I thought the lady should proceed. That lady had tried just about everything else and I only suggested the e-collar as a last resort to prevent the dog being shot or put to sleep. Nevertheless the "nice little doggie police" on the forum still said I was wrong and the dog could have been trained using only love and kindness.
I did not apologise.

The lady was kind enough to write back into the forum after a while to say that she had used an e-collar and that the dog no longer chased sheep. Even that brought a few replies from folk who thought the lady hadn't given other "traditional methods :roll: " a good enough try. In vain I have tried to persuade quite a few folk here that an e-collar can be the most effective yet least pain free method of stopping sheep chasers. I'd probably get lynched if I ever felt I knew enough to instruct folk how to use a collar to train a gundog ! :lol:

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri May 02, 2014 7:33 am

Trekmoor wrote:...That lady had tried just about everything else and I only suggested the e-collar as a last resort to prevent the dog being shot or put to sleep. Nevertheless the "nice little doggie police" on the forum still said I was wrong...
That kind of sums up part of the issue. Whether enforcing a trained recall, snake avoidance, chasing livestock -- using the recall as an example, is it kinder to let a dog get hit by a car, than to use an e-collar to help enforce a long-distance recall?

In terms of misuse of any type of training, I'm sure any type of training can be misused. No Reward Markers (NRMs) are a big topic for "Positive-only" trainers because of the possible complications (which doesn't make NRMs a bad thing, either). My own dog doesn't like the vibration-only feature on his collar (not an uncommon thing) but the collar at low levels was a pretty natural transition for him.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by UglyD » Fri May 02, 2014 8:44 am

I hear the same thing a few times a year- both my PP's have no clue what the " light me up " button is- never been any higher than a very low setting . Once the collar is on now they know the game- never have to touch anything but the beeper- but if I had to save my dog from running across a road in front of a truck you know "bleep" well I would do what ever it took to save their lives. Their not just my hunting dogs- their my partners in hunting- back packing- cross country skiing- whatever it I do-

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by rinker » Fri May 02, 2014 1:54 pm

Forty years or so ago, when I first started out with hunting dogs, I was told by experienced trainers to always have a six foot leather leash available. This was used to whip dogs. i vividly remember being told early on, that a particular dog would occasionally start bumping birds, and the remedy was to catch him in the act and shoot him with bird shot. I was taught early on to check cord a dog in to a bird until he pointed, wait until he made the slightest movement and jerk him hard enough with the check cord to flip him over backwards. I could go on with examples like this.

The modern variable intensity ecollar is the most effective, efficient, humane tool that exists to train a bird dog. Given a choice, I would much rather be stimulated with a low level setting on an ecollar, than be jerked with a check cord.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RayGubernat » Sun May 04, 2014 8:28 am

rinker wrote:Forty years or so ago, when I first started out with hunting dogs, I was told by experienced trainers to always have a six foot leather leash available. This was used to whip dogs. i vividly remember being told early on, that a particular dog would occasionally start bumping birds, and the remedy was to catch him in the act and shoot him with bird shot. I was taught early on to check cord a dog in to a bird until he pointed, wait until he made the slightest movement and jerk him hard enough with the check cord to flip him over backwards. I could go on with examples like this.

The modern variable intensity ecollar is the most effective, efficient, humane tool that exists to train a bird dog. Given a choice, I would much rather be stimulated with a low level setting on an ecollar, than be jerked with a check cord.

I agree with this completely.

To those who would opine that proper use of an e-collar is not humane, I would ask the following question: "Is euthanizing a dog that does not behave well in our particular setting, a humane way to proceed?" Or do you dish off that misbehaving dog on someone else or put it in a shelter, which in either case, makes it essentially "someone else's problem"?? How humane is it to condemn a dog to a life inside a 5X12 chain link enclosure?

As dog owners we need to take responsibility for the dog...the WHOLE responsibility, good and bad. That, unfortunately, includes being willing to put a bullet in the dog's head, if it comes to that and accepting the fact that they were at least partially to blame for the situation.

THAT is the kind of responsibility we, as dog owners assume, whether we want to own up to it or not. We assume total responsibility for the life and well being of the dog as well as the humans and other animals it interacts with.

Very often the truly "humane" thing to do is far, far different and far, far more difficult and unpleasant than the saccharine version that some would have us believe is the case. We have the animal's life in our hands. WE are responsible. WE must be the one to make the hard choices that sometimes must be made.

Many folks who preach about "humane " training methods and "humane" living conditions, etc., ... simply do not have a clue about what sometimes exists in the real world.

Off my soapbox.

RayG

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by mask » Sun May 04, 2014 10:49 am

Ray makes some good points here. Lets get something straight, when you push a button on the e collar, it SHOCKS the dog. Call it what you will training collar, e collar, or perhaps what it is, a shock collar. A rose by any other name perhaps but the operative term here may be proper use of the e collar. I have seen good dogs ruined from time to time which would lead one to believe that a lot of people don't know how to use an e collar or in many cases try to use the collar for short cuts in training. They are a good tool in training but not the only one and if you don't take the time to learn proper use you would be better off with out one. It may very well be that timing is everything.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun May 04, 2014 12:29 pm

mask wrote:Ray makes some good points here. They are a good tool in training but not the only one and if you don't take the time to learn proper use you would be better off with out one. It may very well be that timing is everything.
They may not be the only one, but they are the most precise, most humane, safest easiest to use training aid ever invented. Especially now that we have the variable intensity collars, I would hazard a guess that more dogs have been seriously injured and ruined by the prod, shot gun, rat shot and whip than all collar dogs combined. You want to see brutality, watch a person with a temper work a dog over with a whip.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RayGubernat » Sun May 04, 2014 2:38 pm

mask wrote:Ray makes some good points here. Lets get something straight, when you push a button on the e collar, it SHOCKS the dog. Call it what you will training collar, e collar, or perhaps what it is, a shock collar. A rose by any other name perhaps but the operative term here may be proper use of the e collar. I have seen good dogs ruined from time to time which would lead one to believe that a lot of people don't know how to use an e collar or in many cases try to use the collar for short cuts in training. They are a good tool in training but not the only one and if you don't take the time to learn proper use you would be better off with out one. It may very well be that timing is everything.
Mask -

There is indeed a tingling, tickling sensation when the collar is activated at low levels like 1 through 3 but that is about all. I don't honestly know if I can even call a stim level 1 or 2 a "shock". Yes I have felt those levels on the back of my hand and on my own neck, so I can say what I just said with some level of certainty. I can barely even feel a 1 on my neck and cannot feel it on the back of my hand.

FWIW, I currently have 4 dogs, all trial bred Pointers... all of which have been trained with the e-collar. They all have AF field trial placements, so they have been trained to a fairly high level of performance and reliability. I "always" have a collar on them in training and when hunting, and the collar is on either 1 or 2, depending on the dog. They almost never need more than that, if they need it at all.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by mask » Sun May 04, 2014 2:55 pm

kibafang90 wrote:Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay? Only certain situations?
Some people read this forum.
Opinions?
We started out talking about lighting a dog up. It may be that a dog is a lot more sensitive to shock than humans are. I have zapped myself at lower settings and it was indeed a tingle but what was a tingle to me made a dog go over backwards and yelp. I'm not questioning any ones knowledge or training talent. I'm saying a tool is only as good as the man using it.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Sun May 04, 2014 3:07 pm

[quote="RayGubernat] ...[snip]... I can barely even feel a 1 on my neck and cannot feel it on the back of my hand. ... RayG[/quote]

Yes, while it's still electrical stimulation, low-level stim is more a tickle. I've had e-stim for physical therapy that caused more reaction in me than low settings on a collar.

I don't have the experience of many posters here. But, I've only seen one dog so far who was a good hunter who was collar-shy. Obviously it happens, but I did a search just now of the forum and found only one thread mentioning collar shyness, but lots of threads mentioning gunshyness. Even with clumsy training from less than highly skilled people (such as me) it seems most dogs do well with e-collars. Because "shock collar" does make it sound like the dog feels a painful shock at any level of stim, I believe the term "e-collar" is more reflective of the way these collars now work. Similar to the way halters are called halters or gentle leaders, and not neck-wrench collars.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RayGubernat » Sun May 04, 2014 7:40 pm

mask wrote:
kibafang90 wrote:Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay? Only certain situations?
Some people read this forum.
Opinions?
We started out talking about lighting a dog up. It may be that a dog is a lot more sensitive to shock than humans are. I have zapped myself at lower settings and it was indeed a tingle but what was a tingle to me made a dog go over backwards and yelp. I'm not questioning any ones knowledge or training talent. I'm saying a tool is only as good as the man using it.

Most gundogs are pretty tough, physically. They are built to run on rocks and sand and ground stickers and worse. They routinely run through briars and brush and worse. Their hide and fur are tough and elastic. Most gundogs have the mental toughness to carry them through tough country in search of game.

Now certainly, some dogs are more sensitive, some are not. I have seen it both ways. Some dogs are pretty darn good actors and know they can work their owners over and get their way with a whine and a whimper. Some dogs take corrections relatively uneventfully, some sulk, some shut down.

I think a whole lot depends on the temperament of the individual dog and just how the trainer goes about their training.

RayG

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by birddogger » Sun May 04, 2014 8:55 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
mask wrote:Ray makes some good points here. They are a good tool in training but not the only one and if you don't take the time to learn proper use you would be better off with out one. It may very well be that timing is everything.
They may not be the only one, but they are the most precise, most humane, safest easiest to use training aid ever invented. Especially now that we have the variable intensity collars, I would hazard a guess that more dogs have been seriously injured and ruined by the prod, shot gun, rat shot and whip than all collar dogs combined. You want to see brutality, watch a person with a temper work a dog over with a whip.
Exactly right!! And as others have already said, the lower level stims are just that...a little stimulation or tickle. I would not call it a shock at all but rather a reminder or getting their attention, no more than a tug on a cc except that you can give a tug/jerk at a pretty long distance. It can certainly be used as a shock but should be done only in unique situations as has been discussed many times on this board.

Charlie

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 04, 2014 9:40 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
mask wrote:Ray makes some good points here. Lets get something straight, when you push a button on the e collar, it SHOCKS the dog. Call it what you will training collar, e collar, or perhaps what it is, a shock collar. A rose by any other name perhaps but the operative term here may be proper use of the e collar. I have seen good dogs ruined from time to time which would lead one to believe that a lot of people don't know how to use an e collar or in many cases try to use the collar for short cuts in training. They are a good tool in training but not the only one and if you don't take the time to learn proper use you would be better off with out one. It may very well be that timing is everything.
Mask -

There is indeed a tingling, tickling sensation when the collar is activated at low levels like 1 through 3 but that is about all. I don't honestly know if I can even call a stim level 1 or 2 a "shock". Yes I have felt those levels on the back of my hand and on my own neck, so I can say what I just said with some level of certainty. I can barely even feel a 1 on my neck and cannot feel it on the back of my hand.

FWIW, I currently have 4 dogs, all trial bred Pointers... all of which have been trained with the e-collar. They all have AF field trial placements, so they have been trained to a fairly high level of performance and reliability. I "always" have a collar on them in training and when hunting, and the collar is on either 1 or 2, depending on the dog. They almost never need more than that, if they need it at all.

RayG
If it is a shock then my physical therapy group has been mislead as they call their little electrical machine a stimulator and it has a lot more stimulation than the e-collars I have tried. Quite a difference between a shock and stimulation though they are both electrical.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by mask » Mon May 05, 2014 2:07 pm

Since it sounds like an e collar just tickles, tingles, and stimulates , it may be a better sex toy than a dog trainer. :lol:

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon May 05, 2014 3:53 pm

mask wrote:Since it sounds like an e collar just tickles, tingles, and stimulates , it may be a better sex toy than a dog trainer. :lol:
Could be but will have to take your word for it.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon May 05, 2014 4:40 pm

mask wrote:Since it sounds like an e collar just tickles, tingles, and stimulates , it may be a better sex toy than a dog trainer. :lol:
I don't know. All I can say is that when my dogs see the collar they get excited...really excited. I mean I like hunting and finding birds, but not THAT much. The only thing that gets me THAT excited is when my wife suggests that perhaps tonight might be a good night. Maybe there is something to the sex toy thing.... Hmmm.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by cjhills » Mon May 05, 2014 9:24 pm

There are some things we are all better off not knowing......................cj

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by asc » Wed May 07, 2014 7:52 pm

I have two male EP's that level 1 gets their complete and unabashed attention.

I have a 6 year old female EP that shrugs off level 3 like a pesky mosquito and depending on her mood may require a good correction.
Most days she toodles along nicely but sometimes she gets :twisted:

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kibafang90 » Thu May 08, 2014 12:58 pm

Sharon wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:Just to correct one small point. The e-collar is only banned in Wales not in all of Britain. An awkward situation exists in the rest of Britain for if anyone were foolish enough to habitually have an e-collar on his dog he would be very likely to be criticised ...or worse ....by ordinary folk he met while out with the dog. It is strongly frowned upon for a dog to wear an E-collar while out shooting by the hunters themselves, especially by those with dogs that do not wear an e-collar, which is just about everybody.

It is a brave or stupid man who would take a dog to a shoot here with the dog wearing an e-collar. That man would possibly be told never to return to the shoot. E-collar use here is very infrequent ,it is normally only used on sheep chasing dogs.

Bill T.
Thanks for clarifying that. If I meet anyone from the "general public" when the dog is wearing an e collar, I tell them it is a "locator collar", in case the dog gets lost. :)... which it also is.... :wink:
Beeper? GPS?
Richy rich you.... Save some money for us poor people. XD

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kibafang90 » Thu May 08, 2014 1:06 pm

UglyD wrote:I hear the same thing a few times a year- both my PP's have no clue what the " light me up " button is- never been any higher than a very low setting . Once the collar is on now they know the game- never have to touch anything but the beeper- but if I had to save my dog from running across a road in front of a truck you know I would do what ever it took to save their lives. Their not just my hunting dogs- their my partners in hunting- back packing- cross country skiing- whatever it I do-

Looks like a load of people either cant read or just think what they want when they read? I dont know.
Grab a dogtra throw it on level 100 on a non distracted dog.
Anyways, i got pms that helped out.
Thanks to all who did understand.
Eyes are out there.....

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kibafang90 » Thu May 08, 2014 1:09 pm

rinker wrote:Forty years or so ago, when I first started out with hunting dogs, I was told by experienced trainers to always have a six foot leather leash available. This was used to whip dogs. i vividly remember being told early on, that a particular dog would occasionally start bumping birds, and the remedy was to catch him in the act and shoot him with bird shot. I was taught early on to check cord a dog in to a bird until he pointed, wait until he made the slightest movement and jerk him hard enough with the check cord to flip him over backwards. I could go on with examples like this.

The modern variable intensity ecollar is the most effective, efficient, humane tool that exists to train a bird dog. Given a choice, I would much rather be stimulated with a low level setting on an ecollar, than be jerked with a check cord.
This is IRRELEVANT to this post.... In fact most OPPOSITE from the OP than it could be.... :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
Proper use of the collar isnt an issue here.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu May 08, 2014 2:14 pm

kibafang90 wrote:
rinker wrote:Forty years or so ago, when I first started out with hunting dogs, I was told by experienced trainers to always have a six foot leather leash available. This was used to whip dogs. i vividly remember being told early on, that a particular dog would occasionally start bumping birds, and the remedy was to catch him in the act and shoot him with bird shot. I was taught early on to check cord a dog in to a bird until he pointed, wait until he made the slightest movement and jerk him hard enough with the check cord to flip him over backwards. I could go on with examples like this.

The modern variable intensity ecollar is the most effective, efficient, humane tool that exists to train a bird dog. Given a choice, I would much rather be stimulated with a low level setting on an ecollar, than be jerked with a check cord.
This is IRRELEVANT to this post.... In fact most OPPOSITE from the OP than it could be.... :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
Proper use of the collar isnt an issue here.

What the heck are you talking about??

You are the person that asked: "Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?
Sound okay?" in your first post. That sounded just a tad inflammatory, but perhaps that was just my take on it.

Soooo... just what is irrelevant about comparing e-collar stim to an alternate disciplinary tool and methodology. The fact is...e-collar stim IS, very often, the best training option available...if the dog is wearing an e-collar.

In general, "Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible?" is not the best course of action. I would hope that most folks know that by now.

There ARE specific circumstances and situations where applying a high level of stim to a dog is both absolutely appropriate and THE correct course of action. However, the overwhelming majority of training situations can be handled in a variety of ways, including, but not limited to low level stimulation with an e-collar.

RayG

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu May 08, 2014 2:54 pm

RayGubernat wrote:What the heck are you talking about??...
If it quacks, it's a duck.....lesson o' the day.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 08, 2014 4:32 pm

This is IRRELEVANT to this post.... In fact most OPPOSITE from the OP than it could be.... :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
Proper use of the collar isnt an issue here.
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kibafang90 Rank: Junior Hunter Posts: 83Joined: 16 Sep 2013, 16:07
Someone needs to explain why proper use is irrelevant to non-proper use. I really thought I had finally mastered the basic concept of the English language but now I an back at square one.

Ezzy

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Trekmoor » Thu May 08, 2014 5:54 pm

I am having trouble understanding some of the English in this thread too .....must be because I'm Scottish . :?

Bill T.

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Misuse of an E collar?

Post by ACooper » Thu May 08, 2014 6:02 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
This is IRRELEVANT to this post.... In fact most OPPOSITE from the OP than it could be.... :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
Proper use of the collar isnt an issue here.
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kibafang90 Rank: Junior Hunter Posts: 83Joined: 16 Sep 2013, 16:07
Someone needs to explain why proper use is irrelevant to non-proper use. I really thought I had finally mastered the basic concept of the English language but now I an back at square one.

Ezzy
The problem is.... A troll is being fed.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by asc » Thu May 08, 2014 7:14 pm

yes^^^

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by birddogger » Thu May 08, 2014 7:33 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
This is IRRELEVANT to this post.... In fact most OPPOSITE from the OP than it could be.... :roll: :lol: :mrgreen:
Proper use of the collar isnt an issue here.
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kibafang90 Rank: Junior Hunter Posts: 83Joined: 16 Sep 2013, 16:07
Someone needs to explain why proper use is irrelevant to non-proper use. I really thought I had finally mastered the basic concept of the English language but now I an back at square one.

Ezzy
Me too

Charlie

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by kibafang90 » Thu May 08, 2014 10:06 pm

" Given a choice, I would much rather be stimulated with a low level setting on an ecollar, than be jerked with a check cord."
"Since it sounds like an e collar just tickles, tingles, and stimulates , it may be a better sex toy than a dog trainer."
"To those who would opine that proper use of an e-collar is not humane, I would ask the following question: "Is euthanizing a dog that does not behave well in our particular setting, a humane way to proceed? ... "

Hearing above does not help me much. As the dog in question is getting a correction that would make me cry. It actually DOES make the dog itself cry. We are NOT talking about low level stims. We are talking about as high as collar can possibly go.
Understand where i am coming from?
This is what i mean when i say "Proper use of the collar isnt an issue here."

My question was simple. Though i may have not stated it in the easiest way to understand. But i have my reasons why.
Does "Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible" seem like abuse of the collar?
Thats all i need to know.


Sorry i couldnt explain much about my situation. But thanks to the people who did PM me after reading my post saying ""Anyways. Im looking for advice through PM on topic matter."
THANKS for understanding why i cant talk much on forum publicly about matter. :)
Also, thanks to the people who did post with intention of actually helping out a person sincerely concerned about a dog.

"I don't think there is ever a need for it at that level, and I don't know why they put those levels on the collar. It's a training collar and an effective tool when used wisely."

"I do know of a few dogs that will "pay" the price to do what they want and will go through the highest setting ...
when it comes to avoidance training I do use the high settings as I want the dog to know for instance that the snake just bit them and that it isn't worth a repeat..but again I have come across a couple dogs over the years that all they wanted to do was eat the snake for biting them :roll:
As for regular training always use the lowest setting a dog will Respond to not React to."

I will now PM these people if i have anymore questions in the future.

Also sorry for my English. This forum is a "worldwide" forum just to state.
-Kiba.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri May 09, 2014 6:32 am

You asked:
"Does "Lighting a dog up at the highest level possible" seem like abuse of the collar?
Thats all i need to know."

The answer is pretty simple. It depends.

What something "seems to be" to one person, may not be what it "seems to be" to someone else and neither may be what it actually is.

Now...if the question was to be: "CAN using the highest level on and e-collar be considered abusive"... the answer is...once again...it depends. It be a perfectly appropriate and correct use or it could be abusive depending on the reason and the application.

Using the highest setting to break a dog off chase...when it is headed straight for a busy roadway...is NOT abusive use of an e-collar.

Hope that makes some sense to you.

RayG

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri May 09, 2014 8:01 am

RayGubernat wrote:...
Using the highest setting to break a dog off chase...when it is headed straight for a busy roadway...is NOT abusive use of an e-collar.

Hope that makes some sense to you.

RayG
This sums it up. Unfortunately this thread reads like a troll by someone looking for anti e-collar material.

Any type of training CAN be abusive. One of the worst cases of medical/scientific abuse in this country came from an experiment right before WWII on human orphans where the "researcher" produced life-long stuttering and other related issues in orphans with previously normal speech just by talking to them. Didn't lay a hand on them. Does that mean that speech therapy generally is abusive and should be forbidden? Of course not.

You can abuse a dog and get it to shut down just by teasing it with food or by continually changing what it is asked to do, without laying a hand on it. You can get a dog to cringe and yelp just by doing this. It doesn't make using food in training abusive or raising training criteria abusive.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by deke » Fri May 09, 2014 10:33 am

I have most definitely " lit my dog up" , but only if he is in a potentially dangerous situation ( chasing deer towards a road ). I don't usually even run the collar on anything more than a two. And like most people, I have tested it on my arm and neck. 2 is the level setting that I can see the first hint of a reaction from him, I see no reason to run it any higher. I went the entire season last year without having to charge his collar, I think I only had to hit the button once. I see no other reason, other than the dogs safety is in jeopardy , to use the highest setting on a e-collar.

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Misuse of an E collar?

Post by ACooper » Fri May 09, 2014 1:02 pm

PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE TROLL.

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Re: Misuse of an E collar?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sat May 10, 2014 7:07 pm

ACooper wrote:PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE TROLL.
Thank you

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