Retriever net lab pups

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kumate
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Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Fri May 30, 2014 12:05 pm

Hi I was looking on the retriever net for a Field bred lab. I have had Gsps but like the strong retrieving desire of the labs and would like to participate in the hunt test game. I like health clearances and show titles mean zero to me. What I was surprised to see is with GSPS the the arguable top 5 breeders all line breed to some degree. I have looked at a lot of litters and the one thing they have in common is they are mostly scatter bred dogs bred on a high achieving male bred to a female of questionable achievements. In aprox the last 2wk period there are over 40 litters :o of puppies advertised and the prices are what I would call ridiculous 1500-2500 dollars, plus you can figure 400-500 for shipping expenses. I have had and paid a lot for pups in my life but this seems excessive.

I know campaigning these FC takes money and maybe it is me but even the best bred pup is a crapshoot. Breeding a scatter bred achieving dog to a scatter bred bitch and touting the pups to be the super duper best thing since sliced bread and asking a ridiculous price s a praying on a awful naïve person or someone who has a lot of money but short on sense. Thoughts?

Jerry

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by birddog1968 » Fri May 30, 2014 1:02 pm

1200-2000 may seem ridiculous but thats what well bred Labs cost these days, You can spend 500 dollars or 750 and keep your fingers crossed
but its much better to pay a higher price for proven litters, especially if you may end up liking testing and move to trialing.

Take a look on RTF Retriever training forum and see what you find there/start a thread/ask questions.....that initial price is insignificant when you compare it to the life
of the dog. Yes pups can be a crap shoot but you can stack the odds in your favor....id rather a 10% chance of a dud rather than 50/50.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Fri May 30, 2014 1:25 pm

Thanks for the input, but my point is although the sire may be a high achieving male he is a outcross. Most of the time the bitches were untitled or novice tilted and a result of a outcross themselves. No matter the breed, this doesn't seem like a high probability way to produce a litter. The other honest question is why would those pups demand so much more than a quality GSP litter? The market is flooded with 90% outcross x outcross breedings. I got my GSP actually the second one from Westwind Arguably one of the best NAVDHA producing breeders out there. He wouldn't think of breeding to every fly by night outcrossed Gsp in the hope of producing a performance litter. Of course I did see a few of these 2500 pups reduced to 1000 but I don't think I would want that one :)

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by fourseasons » Fri May 30, 2014 3:04 pm

There's some great info on issues relating to often-used sires (for inbreeding/outcrossing) and health-related problems in dogs, from the Institute of Canine Biology (see link, below)
and also on their FB page https://www.facebook.com/theinstituteof ... noscript=1
Lots of interesting scientific articles regarding breeding dogs - one particular article which you might enjoy reading is The Pox of Popular Sires http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org ... ular-sires
Wishing you great success in finding a pup that's a wonderful match for your interests!

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Fri May 30, 2014 5:13 pm

Thanks good info, if that was the gospel the lab litters I have seen should be a picture of health because most not all didn't have a a related individual in the first 4 generations. I am sure the folks who have successfully line bred for years, could tell a different experience and view. In general I know depending on how close the linebreedings, that it can bring out the good and bad traits. I imagine a few dogs had to be put down to eliminate the bad ones, but seems a lot of the great dogs were and are a result of line breedings

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by mountaindogs » Fri May 30, 2014 7:15 pm

Lab litters are just really high for some reason. I had a bit of a shock when I started shopping. But there are still good litters closer to 1000 out there. Health testing would be more important to me than zillions of hunt titles. The breed has a lot of hidden health concerns. I agree with checking out retrievertrainingforum. Good site. I had a hard time finding what I wanted in a lab breeder but after a while I got the perfect :wink: dog. Close anyway.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Doc E » Fri May 30, 2014 7:46 pm

kumate wrote: The other honest question is why would those pups demand so much more than a quality GSP litter?
Because Labs are waaaay better dogs (and much more versatile) than GSPs.

.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri May 30, 2014 7:53 pm

kumate wrote: The other honest question is why would those pups demand so much more than a quality GSP litter?
Because folks will pay the price.
kumate wrote: The market is flooded with 90% outcross x outcross breedings. I got my GSP actually the second one from Westwind Arguably one of the best NAVDHA producing breeders out there. He wouldn't think of breeding to every fly by night outcrossed Gsp in the hope of producing a performance litter.


I would not consider outcrossing a fly by night breeding. lab folks are not line breeders as a whole. Many, many great dogs have come from outcrossing ( Hybred Vigor). Every line breeder has to outcross now and then. That's just Westwinds opinion or your interpretation. Good luck in finding a pup that fits your needs.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri May 30, 2014 7:55 pm

Doc E wrote:Because Labs are waaaay better dogs (and much more versatile) than GSPs.
Only in your night mares. :wink: :lol:

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Fri May 30, 2014 8:23 pm

I did not say a outcross was a fly by night breeding. Most make thoughtful outcrosses. I did say WOULD NOT breed to EVERY fly by night outcross. EX taking a Bitch who is a out cross via sire and dam are out crosses. Take that bitch and breed to a unrelated sire who he himself is a out cross etc.etc. Gary does have a strong opinion backed by a lot of experience

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri May 30, 2014 11:39 pm

More line breeding in labs than one might guess...but consider or name a clean line of labs comparable to say English pointers ( even tho that's becoming more rare) really well linebred dogs require dedication and an intimate knowledge of the dogs, and these days, I think, individuals willing and able to do that well or in depth are rare these days.

As far as dams and titles show me many pointer females with titles. Again not necessarily needed if someone dedicated is doing the selecting....

Then there is just breeding good dog flesh... But to really determine if that's worth anything one must know the breeder and see the dogs in action.

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Retriever net lab pups

Post by Bluesky2012 » Sat May 31, 2014 4:23 am


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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Sat May 31, 2014 5:40 am

Birddog I agree with most everything you said. I am not a breeder and neither are most who peddle pups, Their are a few kennels who thoughtfully linebreed and know the lineage inside and out, who make the tough decisions to create better performance animals, the same with any breed. The link of the labs and why they are High is written by a lady who breeds labs :o One might believe that logic until you see FC to FC English setter breedings for 750... Gary at Westwind is replacing my first male I purchased after 5yrs of age. I don't know ANY lab breeders who would do that and charge over double the price for the Animal. The previous poster hit it, The price is high because people will pay it, even if they are low probability breedings

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Ms. Cage » Sat May 31, 2014 5:55 am

That's mighty nice of Gary.
kumate wrote:The price is high because people will pay it, even if they are low probability breedi
Most of the so called low probability well titled outcross breedings will make a fine hunting dog. Question is will the litter produce FC's. MH's.. IMO that is what breeders want Same with NAVHDA, VC's. Some of this has to do with getting dogs in the right hands.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Sat May 31, 2014 6:48 am

Agree, Training has a lot to do with it for sure. At first I was apprehensive when I bought my pup from Gary neither the sire or Dam were titled and he doesn't compete himself. But he does breed for traits and what he thinks is a outstanding specimen and has the propensity to produce. He really knows the dogs in the pedigree. After speaking with several owners and researching pedigrees and calling NAVDHA it opened my eyes that his line of dogs really did well in NAVDHA. Although I don't compete in the NAVDHA sport, I like the versatility and intelligence that it requires. Don't mean this to sound like a Westwind infomercial and I kind of got of topic

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Post by birddog1968 » Sat May 31, 2014 7:20 am

I bought my last pointer from AA AMES NC dam was littermate to number 2 AA pointer that year...cost 500 so the FC shorthairs sound high for a simple FC to me......see how that works lol

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Ms. Cage » Sat May 31, 2014 7:57 am

birddog1968 wrote:More line breeding in labs than one might guess...but consider or name a clean line of labs comparable to say English pointers
I've seen more bad bites in pointer then any other breed we've dealt with. lines of pointers that produce cancer. how many pointers have hip clearance?

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Sat May 31, 2014 8:18 am

LOL I guess it is all relative.

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Post by birddog1968 » Sat May 31, 2014 10:36 am

I've had pointers for 35 years never had one with bad hips....

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Ms. Cage » Sat May 31, 2014 12:11 pm

I take it you have had all those dogs OFA'd in 35 yrs. I did a check on ofa's website. Not 1 miller dog has a OFA number and only 15 elhew. Seems odd with 2 of the 1 time top pointer breeders. :?

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Post by birddog1968 » Sat May 31, 2014 12:37 pm

Millers lines are the cleanest out there....I've had dogs xrayed for hips, never paid for ofa to certify them. If you don't have any noticeable hip issues thru a dogs life its safe to say HD Was not an issue....online ran in the nc at 11 or 12.... Bad bites are bad bites....not an issue to breed away from, dogs predisposed to cancer work themselves out.

Pointers having no health testing isn't really an issue in the breed like it is with labs.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by Ms. Cage » Sat May 31, 2014 12:44 pm

Without a OFA rating, Penn hip number it's all lip service. I know my vet is plenty capable of reading hips. It's like saying my dog could have been a NC, NFC, FC, VC. Proof is in the pudding.
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Post by birddog1968 » Sat May 31, 2014 12:47 pm

No testing since the 1600's hasn't been a problem in pointers.....lip service been working good for a long time.

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Re: Retriever net lab pups

Post by kumate » Sat May 31, 2014 1:25 pm

I have kind of mixed feelings about this. I think health testing is a great thing for the breeds. Gary does no health testing but backs his confidence in the health and suitability of his pups with a lifetime guarantee. He is replacing a 5yr old dog I bought from him and liked the dog so much I bought another. From a practical standpoint if the dogs had a lot of health issues you wouldn't be in business long with that guarantee

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