Training question.

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ROLLAND731
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Training question.

Post by ROLLAND731 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:43 pm

I have a 10 month old male gsp. He has been doing great with training. But now I think he's turned gun shy. I started out with small calibers from far away an worked close. He. Always did fine. After some time we worked up to a 20ga. Same thing. Far away he was ok. Steadily moved closer. But first shot over him he freaked. Now seems nervous around anything. How can I fix this? Should I just start over from the beginning?

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Re: Training question.

Post by High Voltage » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:27 am

Was your pup chasing birds when you did the gun intro? I am not an expert and hopefully others will pipe up but I would back up & have the pup chasing when I fired the gun.

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Re: Training question.

Post by 10Sam29 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:50 pm

Definitely bring some type of "fun" item, i.e. bumper, bird, or anything he has fun with into the next training. I wouldn't go back to the gun situation for a few days. If you haven't already, bring him inside with the family preferably in the noisiest rooms in the house and let him acclimate to the sounds. Don't be in a hurry at this stage.

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Re: Training question.

Post by Vman » Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:14 pm

We only know what you told us, and that is vague. But it sure sounds like a gunshy dog to me. You now need to fix the problem. Go back and do it right. Get the dog bird CRAZY and no gun fire. When you have a bird crazy dog you then let the dog chase the flighted birds and blank off with the .22 caliber behind your back and even covered with a gloved hand to muffle the sound. Then read the dog. Go slowly and I would advise you have a pro or experienced person help you with this. You are on thin ice. :oops:

ROLLAND731
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Re: Training question.

Post by ROLLAND731 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:16 pm

He wasn't on birds just free run on our property. Just got me off guard that he did fine the entire time except the first shot over head. I'll back off and work him on some birds and start back with the 22. He's definitely got the drive, that might just be the key. Unfortunately the chuckars I've hatched won't be ready to use for Another couple weeks. :|

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ezzy333
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Re: Training question.

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:19 pm

A 22 is worse than a shotgun to use over a dog.

Melvin4730
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Re: Training question.

Post by Melvin4730 » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:45 pm

Don't shoot around him unless he's chasing a bird during gun intro.

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Training question.

Post by Gooseman07 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:49 am

You really don't want the dog to associate gun fire with anything but birds and excitement. I always make sure they are doing something fun when a gun is fired. Loud noises, I start at a very young age when they are eating, I smack the phone book on the counter and watch what they will do. That makes gun intro much easier in my opinion. But the key is to have the dog doing something fun!

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Re: Training question.

Post by Nutmeg247 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:59 am

Shooting over him with the 20 gauge could mean he got muzzle-blasted, depending on how you did it. That hurts. There are some good old threads on here about desensitization & counterconditioning to gunfire. But, basically, go back far enough you get no reaction, and do always have it associated with something good.

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Training question.

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:35 am

ezzy333 wrote:A 22 is worse than a shotgun to use over a dog.
Just curious but why do you think this?

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Re: Training question.

Post by art hubbard » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:40 am

a 22 has a much more cracking sound than a shotgun

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Training question.

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:56 am

art hubbard wrote:a 22 has a much more cracking sound than a shotgun
A shotgun is louder and still breaks the sound barrier so believe or not is more offensive to a dogs sensitive hearing.

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Re: Training question.

Post by Meller » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:13 pm

art hubbard wrote:a 22 has a much more cracking sound than a shotgun
I agree ,I know I personably have had more negative reaction to a 22 than a shotgun; I normally start with a 410 and work my way up.

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Re: Training question.

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:33 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
art hubbard wrote:a 22 has a much more cracking sound than a shotgun
A shotgun is louder and still breaks the sound barrier so believe or not is more offensive to a dogs sensitive hearing.
Loud is not the test of sensitivity of hearing. The pitch of the sound is much more important. Many low pitched sounds we can't even hear are what other animals can hear from many miles away. And dogs can hear and are bothered by high pitched sounds you don't hear either. I have no idea what the sound barrier has to do with it or even how you know what the sound barrier is since it is just a turbulent air movement caused by something breaking through the compressed air in front of it.

Ezzy

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Training question.

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
art hubbard wrote:a 22 has a much more cracking sound than a shotgun
A shotgun is louder and still breaks the sound barrier so believe or not is more offensive to a dogs sensitive hearing.
Loud is not the test of sensitivity of hearing. The pitch of the sound is much more important. Many low pitched sounds we can't even hear are what other animals can hear from many miles away. And dogs can hear and are bothered by high pitched sounds you don't hear either. I have no idea what the sound barrier has to do with it or even how you know what the sound barrier is since it is just a turbulent air movement caused by something breaking through the compressed air in front of it.

Ezzy
The sound barrier relates to the "crack" that was quoted and the level of noise that leads to gunshyness. The bottom line is that a .22 doesn't have a reward, shotguns do. Its simple. Shotguns mean reward and a .22 blank means nothing.

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ezzy333
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Re: Training question.

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:35 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:
A shotgun is louder and still breaks the sound barrier so believe or not is more offensive to a dogs sensitive hearing.
Loud is not the test of sensitivity of hearing. The pitch of the sound is much more important. Many low pitched sounds we can't even hear are what other animals can hear from many miles away. And dogs can hear and are bothered by high pitched sounds you don't hear either. I have no idea what the sound barrier has to do with it or even how you know what the sound barrier is since it is just a turbulent air movement caused by something breaking through the compressed air in front of it.

Ezzy[/quote]
The sound barrier relates to the "crack" that was quoted and the level of noise that leads to gunshyness. The bottom line is that a .22 doesn't have a reward, shotguns do. Its simple. Shotguns mean reward and a .22 blank means nothing.

So you agree with me now? You are hard to keep up with.

ROLLAND731
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Training question.

Post by ROLLAND731 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:57 am

I've gone back to a. .22. But I'm using. .22 short cartridge blanks. Much quieter almost like a cap gun. The reason I want him used to the visual of the gun. Not just a cap gun. He has been better throughout the week. We walk thru our property and I let him run and search the high brush. It has also helped running him with my older dog. Which although is not a pointer still seems to help show that he doesn't react negatively to fun fire.

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Re: Training question.

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:40 am

My present Brittany is now about 21 months old and has a shooting season behind her. She worked on big driven shoots with a barrage of shotgun bangs going off. All they did was make her more excited and readier to find the birds that fell.
Last Sunday she was at a training class taken by me and thinking that she was bombproof to bangs I fired off a starting pistol containing a tiny blank for one of the handlers dogs. My own bitch was not at all happy about that "crack" from the starting pistol. I had made the mistake of assuming she would be O.K. I have seen this reaction several times before when perfectly good working gundogs were frightened by the crack of a starting pistol or of a dummy launcher yet were absolutely fine with shotgun bangs. There is a difference between the two sounds and some dogs do not like the "crack" made by pistols or launchers.

Bill T.

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ezzy333
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Re: Training question.

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:03 am

Trekmoor wrote:My present Brittany is now about 21 months old and has a shooting season behind her. She worked on big driven shoots with a barrage of shotgun bangs going off. All they did was make her more excited and readier to find the birds that fell.
Last Sunday she was at a training class taken by me and thinking that she was bombproof to bangs I fired off a starting pistol containing a tiny blank for one of the handlers dogs. My own bitch was not at all happy about that "crack" from the starting pistol. I had made the mistake of assuming she would be O.K. I have seen this reaction several times before when perfectly good working gundogs were frightened by the crack of a starting pistol or of a dummy launcher yet were absolutely fine with shotgun bangs. There is a difference between the two sounds and some dogs do not like the "crack" made by pistols or launchers.

Bill T.
I would agree completely except from my experience I would say many instead of some.

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Re: Training question.

Post by Windyhills » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:01 pm

The 22 worse or better than shotgun discussion has always seemed to me to be straying from the main question. IMO whether you use either one you want to start with the pup engaged in something fun, with the gun blast far from the pup. If you don't do that you risk problems no matter what gun you use, IMO.

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Training question.

Post by Bluesky2012 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:01 pm

I hate reading these posts because it was a completely preventable problem. Honestly, fixing a gun shy dog is a tough and often fruitless endeavor. If it is truly gun shy, I'd get a new dog.

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Re: Training question.

Post by Max2 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:I hate reading these posts because it was a completely preventable problem. Honestly, fixing a gun shy dog is a tough and often fruitless endeavor. If it is truly gun shy, I'd get a new dog.
I disagree with it being completely preventable. I had a 4 yr old dog that was hunted over and well gun broke. Many birds shot over him and one summer day before his 5th season i'm working in the yard we hear some gun fire (pounding for a good hour or so) & next thing I know my dog is starting to not like it. It was something out of our control. I thought to myself I wonder how many times he was in his kennel while I was at work that he was subject to this type of abuse ? you blame yourself but is your pup ever left alone ? where maybe it's something out of your control . The fact that you shot over him and he freaked tells me his mind perhaps wasn't fully occupied with a bird when the shot was fired. You can get through this .
Good luck !

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Re: Training question.

Post by Sharon » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:01 pm

I agree. When it comes to dogs and children , not everything is preventable nor the owner's fault.

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Bluesky2012
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Training question.

Post by Bluesky2012 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:05 pm

Max2 wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:I hate reading these posts because it was a completely preventable problem. Honestly, fixing a gun shy dog is a tough and often fruitless endeavor. If it is truly gun shy, I'd get a new dog.
I disagree with it being completely preventable. I had a 4 yr old dog that was hunted over and well gun broke. Many birds shot over him and one summer day before his 5th season i'm working in the yard we hear some gun fire (pounding for a good hour or so) & next thing I know my dog is starting to not like it. It was something out of our control. I thought to myself I wonder how many times he was in his kennel while I was at work that he was subject to this type of abuse ? you blame yourself but is your pup ever left alone ? where maybe it's something out of your control . The fact that you shot over him and he freaked tells me his mind perhaps wasn't fully occupied with a bird when the shot was fired. You can get through this .
Good luck !
My dogs are in the yard every day when machine guns, mortars, rockets, artillery, etc are shooting. Literally rattles my house. No effect hunting-wise with my dogs. They know the difference.

Did it make an effect on your dog in the field? Dogs can discern between a random shot or loud sound, and that of a gun in the field. They know the difference between a loud boom and a gunshot at a bird.

The OPs dog was on the right track till he improperly conditioned to gun fire. It absolutely was preventable had he done it right.

There is a difference between his case and yours. His dog was a blank slate and he allowed no positive association between shotguns and birds. Yours was positively associating gunfire to birds and then some negative impulse changed it (without more info this is my assumption) to believe a gun wasn't about birds anymore but rather something else. Very different.
Last edited by Bluesky2012 on Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Training question.

Post by hi-tailyn » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:06 pm

If you are not using BIRDS to introduce gun fire to your dog then you are doing it wrong.

We have gone over this 200 times and there is a wealth of information on how to do it right.

There is no excuse to shooting a gun around your dog that is not chasing birds.

Same old story of I don't know how I made my dog Gun Shy.

BIRDS!!! This is a Fact!!

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Training question.

Post by Bluesky2012 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:07 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:If you are not using BIRDS to introduce gun fire to your dog then you are doing it wrong.

We have gone over this 200 times and there is a wealth of information on how to do it right.

There is no excuse to shooting a gun around your dog that is not chasing birds.

Same old story of I don't know how I made my dog Gun Shy.

BIRDS!!! This is a Fact!!

Exactly. I'd like to know how many people have ever truly fixed gun shy-ness. I don't know of any cases. There may be a few but it's much better to get a new dog if you actually care about a huting dog, not a dog that might later hunt.

Sharon,
How is not doing research and learning to properly associate gunfire to birds not the OPs fault? If I tried to force fetch using a pair of pliers on an ear pinch and used a cinder block to grab instead of a bumper and dead duck, would it be out of my control? No! I didnt do due diligence to learn and do a CRUCIAL step right and likely ruined a dog.

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Re: Training question.

Post by Max2 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:23 am

Bluesky in my case your assumption was 100% correct & it scared the heck out of me. That is why I brought it up. Say the o/p with a clean slate was unaware of something else that was negatively impacting his training process. Though it probably judging by what o/p has stated that he is the person who may have created this issue. He came here for help & that was a good option. I am not one for more laws. We have have enough at the moment. But..... I wish when anyone got their first dog for gunning over they had to sign a paper stating that they knew when it was the correct time to shoot. We were able to work through this & my dog hunts beautifully . Get the dog into birds and leave the gun home .

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Training question.

Post by Bluesky2012 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:07 am

Max2 wrote:Bluesky in my case your assumption was 100% correct & it scared the heck out of me. That is why I brought it up. Say the o/p with a clean slate was unaware of something else that was negatively impacting his training process. Though it probably judging by what o/p has stated that he is the person who may have created this issue. He came here for help & that was a good option. I am not one for more laws. We have have enough at the moment. But..... I wish when anyone got their first dog for gunning over they had to sign a paper stating that they knew when it was the correct time to shoot. We were able to work through this & my dog hunts beautifully . Get the dog into birds and leave the gun home .

Yup birds and more birds is the best option right now

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