Gun Dog Forum

I was told recently in the trailing world my Dog would be considered Derby Broke.
Could someone give me a definition of this i have no experience at all in field trials.

Thanks

In a nutshell it means he the dog will hold point until u get there and flush...then all "heck" can break loose!

The dog can go for the bird when the handler flushes it and go on the shot , but must show a nice point /independence / effective covering of the ground/ working for the handler etc. etc.

Now a days , in A.F. derby stakes the winning dog is "usually" broke to flush and shot too.

I like PntrRookie's description.

WOW ok that's interesting.
So just to be sure the retrieve has nothing to do with this correct ?

In AKC, a dog is a Derby from 6 months to 2 years, the dog must point(staunch) but does not get extra credit for steady to wing and shot. And does not need to back. For some judges a flash point is all that is needed, and the dog can knock and chase before the handler flushes. For most the dog should establish a definite point.

In American Field, the dog can be up to 30 months, and there are different standards for the Fall and Spring. A Fall Deby should be staunch, cautioned to a back, and can be stopped after a short chase. A Spring Derby should show more maturity, and extra credit is given for being steady, they should back. There is some controversy about falsifying whelping dates, running over-aged dogs, and putting too much pressure on the dogs.

So for "Derby broke" to have meaning, you must know the background of the speaker.

Retrieving is not required.

Neil

Neil,
Thanks that is alot of good info.

Neil wrote:In AKC, a dog is a Derby from 6 months to 2 years, the dog must point(staunch) but does not get extra credit for steady to wing and shot. And does not need to back. For some judges a flash point is all that is needed, and the dog can knock and chase before the handler flushes. For most the dog should establish a definite point.

In American Field, the dog can be up to 30 months, and there are different standards for the Fall and Spring. A Fall Deby should be staunch, cautioned to a back, and can be stopped after a short chase. A Spring Derby should show more maturity, and extra credit is given for being steady, they should back. There is some controversy about falsifying whelping dates, running over-aged dogs, and putting too much pressure on the dogs.

So for "Derby broke" to have meaning, you must know the background of the speaker.

Retrieving is not required.

Neil

For everyone's info. A derby dog does not have to have a bird to qualify. The rules simply state a derby dog must POINT. Look it up in the rules for AKC. Too many judges don't read and assume because someone else told them so. Read all rules that apply to AKC or AF

kensfishing wrote:A derby dog does not have to have a bird...Read all rules that apply...

The American Field allows judges to place Derbies (and puppies) without bird work.

From the NBHA (American Field/AFTCA) rule book...Derbies are judged on their demonstration of potentially becoming a Finished Shooting Dog showing some bird sense, speed and stamina, hunt to the course, locate and point quickly and accurately and be staunch. Derby winners are not required to back.

kensfishing wrote:

Neil wrote:In AKC, a dog is a Derby from 6 months to 2 years, the dog must point(staunch) but does not get extra credit for steady to wing and shot. And does not need to back. For some judges a flash point is all that is needed, and the dog can knock and chase before the handler flushes. For most the dog should establish a definite point.

In American Field, the dog can be up to 30 months, and there are different standards for the Fall and Spring. A Fall Deby should be staunch, cautioned to a back, and can be stopped after a short chase. A Spring Derby should show more maturity, and extra credit is given for being steady, they should back. There is some controversy about falsifying whelping dates, running over-aged dogs, and putting too much pressure on the dogs.

So for "Derby broke" to have meaning, you must know the background of the speaker.

Retrieving is not required.

Neil

For everyone's info. A derby dog does not have to have a bird to qualify. The rules simply state a derby dog must POINT. Look it up in the rules for AKC. Too many judges don't read and assume because someone else told them so. Read all rules that apply to AKC or AF

You are correct about FDSB not having to point a bird to be placed, though it is fairly rare. You are wrong about AKC, a point is defined as standing game. How would you define a point without a bird? A kennel point? You cannot learn this stuff from behind a computer. I have judged with some of the guys that write the rules.

Not for DERBY

AKC Does not say anything about pointing a bird. It says a point must be established

Ken: What else will elicit a point? groundhog or .................

Years ago the AKC Pointing Dog Performance Advisory Group considered allowing a point on a rabbit or other non-game, or even a UP as satisfying the requirement, it was decided it must be a game bird. All this is covered by the Judges Seminar conducted by AKC.

If you want to change the rule to match your interpretation, contact AKC.

PntrRookie wrote:

kensfishing wrote:A derby dog does not have to have a bird...Read all rules that apply...

The American Field allows judges to place Derbies (and puppies) without bird work.

From the NBHA (American Field/AFTCA) rule book...Derbies are judged on their demonstration of potentially becoming a Finished Shooting Dog showing some bird sense, speed and stamina, hunt to the course, locate and point quickly and accurately and be staunch. Derby winners are not required to back.

Not arguing but how can a dog locate, point and be staunch without bird work? I have never been given credit for pointing Ground Squirrels, Gophers or non-game birds.

No, they must point a game bird, there is some question if turkeys, rails, and snipe should count; most agree they should not. I have heard the argument that it must be listed in the premium to be considered, I am not that strident.

If it furthers the conversation, I welcome argument. I usually am not that thin skinned.

Nothing in the premium can state a dog in derby must point birds. Here the rules. I have personally watched and judged a number of situations just like this. quote:Derbies must show a keen desire to hunt, be bold and independent, have a fast, yet attractive, style of running, and demonstrate not only intelligence in seeking objectives but also the ability to find game. Derbies must establish point but no additional credit shall be given for steadiness to wing and shot. Not being thin or thick skin but people who judge need to have an open mind. Bird left who knows if it was a previous contact or what.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Not arguing but how can a dog locate, point and be staunch without bird work? I have never been given credit for pointing Ground Squirrels, Gophers or non-game birds.

Key to that post is the beginning of the sentence which states ...judged on their demonstration of "potentially" becoming a Finished Shooting Dog showing... They may now or they may in the future...but they just have to show that they have the "potential" to...

The point is being in an AKC Derby trial. A dog must point and have a shot fired over them. No mention of birds. We're talking about Derby and the possibility of becoming a class gun dog.

The reference to the premium (if you have ever read one) was under the heading of "Courses and Birds", there are judges that will not give credit unless it is a bird listed therein. I said I am not that literal in my judging, rarely are Woodcock listed, but I do credit them.

If you are placing Derbies that do not establish a point on a game bird in an AKC trial, you need to attend a judges seminar or quite judging. The least you can do is use your real name or judge's number, so we can be forewarned. There is no way any knowledgeable trialler would run a dog under you.

This is not a grey area.

kensfishing wrote:The point is being in an AKC Derby trial. A dog must point and have a shot fired over them. No mention of birds. We're talking about Derby and the possibility of becoming a class gun dog.

Where is the line between a derby pointing something other than upland birds and a gun dog doing the same?
So would you place 'a class gun dog' which had a point on something other than an upland game bird?

You're supposed to be judging birddogs, not turtle dogs, snake dogs, bunny dogs, porky dogs, or pile of feathers dogs :roll:

This nonsense made me search the rule book.

Page 61 defines game as upland birds, then pointing as standing motionless indicating game.

Page 65 # 14, clearly says Derbies must point a bird.

What is scary is one of them claims to judge, not just incorrectly interpreting the rules, but incorrectly applying them.

Neil

You still didn't get it. A derby dog does not have to point a bird on course. Judges can call a dog back to see how a dog handles a bird like a call back. If they think the dogs ground work is acceptable in they're eyes. It happens all the time. Like I said you have to judge with an open mind. Would you like to compare the number of dogs you've judged against mine, and the number in each stake or even the number of Championships judged. Like I said you have to have an Open Mind to judge dogs. Assuming something happened or didn't happen is wrong.

kensfishing wrote:You still didn't get it. A derby dog does not have to point a bird on course. Judges can call a dog back to see how a dog handles a bird like a call back. If they think the dogs ground work is acceptable in they're eyes. It happens all the time. Like I said you have to judge with an open mind. Would you like to compare the number of dogs you've judged against mine, and the number in each stake or even the number of Championships judged. Like I said you have to have an Open Mind to judge dogs. Assuming something happened or didn't happen is wrong.

What total and complete BS, an AKC Derby must point a bird under judgement, either during their brace or a second series (for some reason AKC does not like the call back on birds terminology). Really does not matter how open minded you might want to be, you are giving bad advice.

And I welcome a judging comparison, most of my experience has been in American Field and goes back to 1963. But more to point, I know and follow the rules.

Please stop hiding behind a fake name and proudly share your vast experience.

[quote="kensfishing"]You still didn't get it. A derby dog does not have to point a bird on course. Judges can call a dog back to see how a dog handles a bird like a call back. If they think the dogs ground work is acceptable in they're eyes. It happens all the time. Like I said you have to judge with an open mind. Would you like to compare the number of dogs you've judged against mine, and the number in each stake or even the number of Championships judged. Like I said you have to have an Open Mind to judge dogs. Assuming something happened or didn't happen is wrong.[/quote

Open-mindedness has nothing to do with it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the dog, but first he has to do the work in order to earn that. And if you're using derbies which have pointed something other than an upland game bird, aren't you the one assuming it would point birds as well as it did the snake or whatever?

Callbacks in derby ( or gundog or all age) to obtain a point are only allowed if there are extenuating circumstances in the stake, e.g., there isn't any birdwork at all. You're not supposed to call back your birdless faves if other dogs have had birdwork. In the event that birds were locating by a dog which had a lousy race, you have the option to withhold placements. Stinks for the good-going but birdless one, but such is life.

shags wrote:

kensfishing wrote:You still didn't get it. A derby dog does not have to point a bird on course. Judges can call a dog back to see how a dog handles a bird like a call back. If they think the dogs ground work is acceptable in they're eyes. It happens all the time. Like I said you have to judge with an open mind. Would you like to compare the number of dogs you've judged against mine, and the number in each stake or even the number of Championships judged. Like I said you have to have an Open Mind to judge dogs. Assuming something happened or didn't happen is wrong.[/quote

Open-mindedness has nothing to do with it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the dog, but first he has to do the work in order to earn that. And if you're using derbies which have pointed something other than an upland game bird, aren't you the one assuming it would point birds as well as it did the snake or whatever?

Callbacks in derby ( or gundog or all age) to obtain a point are only allowed if there are extenuating circumstances in the stake, e.g., there isn't any birdwork at all. You're not supposed to call back your birdless faves if other dogs have had birdwork. In the event that birds were locating by a dog which had a lousy race, you have the option to withhold placements. Stinks for the good-going but birdless one, but such is life.

Shags hit it. You have to judge with an open mind. Not one that is just rules. I seen both AKC and AF Championship placements and wins with dogs with no bird contact on course.

this is all very interesting, how can there be so many interpretations of the AKC rule book. I have now had my first two dog dogs go through puppy trials and Derbys, all AKC. All of these have been with different judges. All of the judges have told me different things or at least eluded to different things. Anni won a derby and the judge told me it would not have mattered whether she had any points she would have won. Ava takes 2nd and the judge says if only she had more finds because she ran better than the other dog but he had 3 finds and points to her 1. Maybe I should not talk to everyone including the judges after a trial. So what I get out of this post and I am a newbie to trials is that derbies are kind of the middleground and wide open to interpretation, get to the next level and things are much clearer. Also the next level is where you need to excel anyway.

@Kensfishing,

I'm sorry but I think you have misinterpreted my meaning. I meant in my last post that I disagree with you, and agree with Neil. You don't use dogs, derbies or otherwise, that have not pointed an upland game bird during their braces. Period.

Open-mindedness can only go so far. Many of the rules are open to some interpretation, being somewhat ambiguous; and IMO it's always important that you can't judge what you didn't see. But this rule re pointing is clear not ambiguous or open to interpretation at all.

If I didn't see a dog point an upland game bird, I cannot extrapolate to believe he coulda or woulda - because he shoulda during his time on the ground. And because of that, although it may make me cry because he might have been the best dog of the day, I can't use him in placements if other dogs have had birdwork. If no dog had contact, then a second series may be appropriate.

Answer us this. What if a dog takes out a bird or goes with the flush, but is clean on two other finds? Can you use him? Why or why not? What if he has 7 clean finds and blows the 8th? The book says a gun dog must locate game, point staunchly, and be steady to wing and shot. It doesn't say steady to wing and shot on every bird. Can you interpret this to mean if he demonstrates steadiness once, that's enough?

You can agree with any one you want. That's what makes the world go round. Problem is the rule Neil listed is a Guideline not a rule. I just saw the same thing happen again this weekend at a trial. Three dogs had no bird work on course in a Derby. They called them back for a call back of sort. The best dog in the call back didn't win. They placed all three dogs. There are rules and then there is the guide lines listed. Rules come first. But opinions are different from judge to judge.

Ken please let us know your name and the trials you attend I want to be able to avoid them in the future.

I have been trialing now for over 40 years. In AKC there are only a few set rules. Most are guidelines. For example of which there is not rule or guidelilne but most judges will throw the dog if it has two un-productive's. There is not even a guide line for this, it just is. In almost every case the derby dog must point game birds whether wild of planted. But, when it comes down to it. The judge has the final decision. If you have none of the derby dogs point and you want to place a dog you must bring it back to point a bird. Once the stake starts it is up to the judges. They are the ones who make the final decision whether you agree with them or not. That is a fact and you have to live with there decision.

In American Field it states a derby dog does not have to point. They judge the dog as to it's over all performance.

Here is something to think about. What if the conditions are so bad a dog does not have a chance to point but has a fantastic run. It hunted all the right places but unable to produce a bird. Rain, wind, you name it caused the demise of those planted birds and that dog or dogs did not have chance to point. Just something to think about.

Brooks Carmichael wrote:I have been trialing now for over 40 years. In AKC there are only a few set rules. Most are guidelines. For example of which there is not rule or guidelilne but most judges will throw the dog if it has two un-productive's. There is not even a guide line for this, it just is. In almost every case the derby dog must point game birds whether wild of planted. But, when it comes down to it. The judge has the final decision. If you have none of the derby dogs point and you want to place a dog you must bring it back to point a bird. Once the stake starts it is up to the judges. They are the ones who make the final decision whether you agree with them or not. That is a fact and you have to live with there decision.

In American Field it states a derby dog does not have to point. They judge the dog as to it's over all performance.

Here is something to think about. What if the conditions are so bad a dog does not have a chance to point but has a fantastic run. It hunted all the right places but unable to produce a bird. Rain, wind, you name it caused the demise of those planted birds and that dog or dogs did not have chance to point. Just something to think about.

Personally I think that that rule emphasizes the fact that there is more to a "good run" then pointing a bird. I like it.

Brooks,

Would you please direct me to the American Field written rule stating a Derby does not have to point?

Thanks,

Neil

Neil, go to the AFTCA rule book, I believe you will find it there. I can only assume you do not run in American Field sanctioned events. Bernie Mathies who is owner of American Field Magazine and is final authority on American Field events and will be able to advise you on this subject. The NGSPA which runs under American Field rules does not required a derby dog to point. But, again it is left up to the judges discretion. We have had in the past where a the judges have put up dogs that did not point in a futurity. This happens all the time in wild bird trials. It would be desirable to have a derby dog point but due to conditions it is not always possible.

Brooks,

I ran in my first American Field trial in 1963, been judging since 1969.

The AFTCA Guidelines do not apply to Open stakes. Only the minimum requirements do, and they do not address the matter.

Tell you what. Talk to the President of AKC Terry Chandler and he can explain it to you. The AKC rules do say a Derby dog has to point a bird. They have to POINT. As far a this last weekend I wasn't JUDGING. Brooks has had several of his dogs run under me in years past. We know every top Trailer in the country. So if you want or think you know more than them go for it. I just stated a fact that someone brought up,.You need an open Mind. There's enough of that in today's judging. If you think you know more, fine.

Isn't Mr. Chandler president of GSPCA? That's a far cry from president of AKC. Unless he's on the advisory board, he wouldn't have any more say as to FT rules than any other parent club president. And being an elected official of a club doesn't make anyone automatically knowledgeable of or expert in interpreting of the rules or guidelines. There have been plenty who have never run a dog in a trial.

At any rate I don't think I would take the advice of anyone who thinks that a point on anything than an upland game bird in a pointing dog field trial is adequate to place a dog.

The logic here is that you are looking for dogs with future potential,on the other hand would you use a dog in a broke stake that only had non productives. In my opinion most akc judges are to negative when judging and not very flexible. Ken your way of the mark on this one, I would side with Neal on this one

I am finding it wise to ignore Ken whatever his name might be. First he argued that you did have to point a bird, just point, then it could be a UP, then they are just Guidelines, added in was having an open mind (which I wholeheartedly agree with), then it was a call back (which is true) now he claims to know what the head of AKC thinks.

He is a nut, it is that simple, and is undeserving of attention.

But it does go a long way in explaining how little you need to know to judge, with others stating non-existing American Field rules.

Neil Mace

Yes he is the GSPCA president and he is the one who brought up the conversation on derby dogs. As far as agreeing with me. I really don't care. If most of the people on this forum would look at dogs the right way instead of the so called good ole boys way, we might have better dogs. Too many people say I want number of finds in a trial. You have to look at temps. time of day weather cover bird planters. Too many things go into it. So no body here has said nothing to prove me wrong. Get out and enjoy your dogs before all the tree huggers won't let us.

kensfishing wrote:You still didn't get it. A derby dog does not have to point a bird on course. Judges can call a dog back to see how a dog handles a bird like a call back. If they think the dogs ground work is acceptable in they're eyes. It happens all the time. Like I said you have to judge with an open mind. Would you like to compare the number of dogs you've judged against mine, and the number in each stake or even the number of Championships judged. Like I said you have to have an Open Mind to judge dogs. Assuming something happened or didn't happen is wrong.

This is not true. An AKC derby MUST have a productive point to place...not just a point. My derby had a brilliant run at the APC nationals and finished up on point. I didn't see every brace and every race, but I saw most of them and no dog was even close. I could not raise a bird to the dog's point and time expired. Done and done. Was there a bird there?? "bleep" straight there was, but it ran out on the dog before we got there. That's life. Call it handler error.

The AKC rulebook states somewhere that dogs may be called back for bird work only under very unusual circumstances. I have seen that done precisely once in nearly 20 years and it was because the entire field of derby dogs went birdless. It was 90 + degrees and the cover was impenetrably thick and nearly chest high. The only places the dogs could run were on the cut paths. I personally witnessed three dogs literally run over a stocked quail. None of them gave the slightest indication of scent. One of them was my dog and I know for a fact that dog had a good to excellent nose.

RayG

Neil wrote:Brooks,

I ran in my first American Field trial in 1963, been judging since 1969.

The AFTCA Guidelines do not apply to Open stakes. Only the minimum requirements do, and they do not address the matter.

It looks like we both have been around the field trial circuit for a long time. When all said and done, the judge has the final decision. Hopefully, I am sure you can agree on that.
Sometimes it is matter of semantics. I can be simple as nobody is completely right or wrong. I feel a lot of time on this forum some like to argue for the sake arguing. I do not feel at these times anything really is accomplished by name calling or just doing it, just to create controversy.

Other than disqualifying a dog for registration or age reasons I do not think AKC has ever changed a judge's decision. So we can agree it is left to the judges, as it should be.

So rather than argue, you would have us let untruths stand?

And Brooks you were a little condescending suggesting I was inexperienced.

Neil

Neil wrote:Other than disqualifying a dog for registration or age reasons I do not think AKC has ever changed a judge's decision. So we can agree it is left to the judges, as it should be.

So rather than argue, you would have us let untruths stand?

And Brooks you were a little condescending suggesting I was inexperienced.

Neil

I never said that or implied that. You are reading something it that was not there.

Brooks Carmichael wrote:Neil, go to the AFTCA rule book, I believe you will find it there. I can only assume you do not run in American Field sanctioned events..

Brooks, I think I read exactly what you wrote.

Hope you have a great Fall.

PntrRookie wrote:In a nutshell it means he the dog will hold point until u get there and flush...then all "heck" can break loose!

To answer the original question...I'll stand by my original response above. Not sure if oilcan even cares about AKC or AF regs. I took it as - when selling a pup, if someone tells you it is "Derby Broke" what does that mean.
Good night, and tip your wait staff well.

And the answer is that "it could mean many things". Same as a breeder saying the dog is "green broke", or "started". Only way to knows what the breeder means , is to see the dog work.

Enjoyed the conversation folks.

"Not sure if oilcan even cares about AKC or AF regs"

I found all the conversation very interesting and it's not that I don't care but that is not the reason I asked.

With out getting into to much detail I had my Dog at a trainer this summer and that is where I was told he was at with his training when it was time to pick him up.
Funny thing is according to what you guys are saying he was already "Derby Broke" when I brought him to them so to say I'm not very happy would be an under statement.

There is a lot more to training a dog than pointing, cats point, all well bred pointing dogs point.

I think you would have benefited from more communication. Your expectations and the trainers accoumplishments should have been fully discussed in detail.

How is the dog's overall performance? If unsatisfactory to your standards, you owe the trainer the chance to explain.

Wow.
All I do is hunt my dogs but I have always been interested in trials,
but if this is the kind of bickering you find in the trial crowd and if the rule book is that ambiguous and if guys with decades of experience can't agree I think I will stick with hunting .
I never argue with my dog about the bird being there and My dog never argues about how far he has to go to retrieve it.
And when I talk with fellow hunters about my hunts it's enjoyable not stressful.