Field Trial handling ?

[whatsnext]

I went to my second trial on Sept 1st which was a fun trial not an actual trial, My question is with the two trials I have been to both times the handler's I have been braced with were in my opinion very vocal and I was wondering if this is normal ? I was always taught to keep your yap shut until you want the pup to come to you or change directions, I could understand some vocals if these were AA dogs but they are not. Is all this yelling, hollering, handling or whatever they call it necessary because I feel they are hacking the pups. I hunt my pups and say very little we can be hunting a square mile or a quarter section and they will go with me, if I want to change directions I just start walking the way I want and if they do not see me before I am out of sight I give a blast of the whistle and they look and start to work the way I am walking.

The reason I am asking is the pup I am running would go to the other handler when he whistled every time and this started at about 50 feet from the break away and was every few seconds of atta boys and long whistle blast's. After a few minutes of this you could see my pup looking around like what the heck does this guy want and would not go out very far. Is there a way that I can get him to ignore the other handler's or is it just more time of me saying nothing and the pup learning to ignore everyone else? I think this pup has some potential but if he doesn't learn to ignore the other handler's all is lost at this FT game with him. On a good note he did back the other dog and with the bird he found he stayed steady for the flush and shot he didn't move an inch.

[RichK]

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=47295

I LITERALLY had the same exact problem at my first trial this past Sunday. Other handler was hacking his dog and my pup would return to him to the point she actually ran into him 2-3 times.

[Winchey]

In my opinion the less yacking you need to do the better.
It takes time for them to get used to all the commotion of the gallery, horses, strange dogs, some guy yelling his head off, you will get to the point where when you are braced with someone like that you can just let him do the yacking for both of you, or just try to separate from him.

It is to be expected in your first trial, it takes some dogs longer than others to get used to that stuff.

[RayGubernat]

In my opinion the less yacking you need to do the better.
It takes time for them to get used to all the commotion of the gallery, horses, strange dogs, some guy yelling his head off, you will get to the point where when you are braced with someone like that you can just let him do the yacking for both of you, or just try to separate from him.

It is to be expected in your first trial, it takes some dogs longer than others to get used to that stuff.

Exactly right.

Although an AKC Gun Dog stake should be a relatively quiet affair, some judges allow more hacking and voice handling than others. It seems, in my area that the trend is for more noise, not less in Gundog stakes. That is actually unfortunate, in my view. In AF stakes there is almost always a lot of vocalizing....some singing, some hacking, some flat out hollering.

One of the very best things you can do is to get together with someone and practice. Have that person yell, whistle, sing, call their dog and in general carry on and you continue to walk/ride directing your dog with hand signals and minimal vocalization. Literally walk off in another direction when your dog responds to the other handler's hollering or whistles.

In fairly short order, your dog will learn to key on you and your signals, whatever they may be, and to simply filter out the rest as noise.

It is a really scummy thing to do deliberately, but folks have been known to holler or blow a whistle at the top of their lungs for their lost dog... in the immediate vicinity of where the other dog is on point. This can have a very distracting effect on the pointing dog. That is also something you should practice and condition the dog to...because it is going to happen. Many times it is due to ignorance or inattention on the part of the handler, but even when it is done innocently, it can still screw a dog up...big time... so you had better desensitize the dog to it.

Once the dog leans to pay attention to you and only you and to ignore all the other sources of distraction...you will be waaaay ahead because your dog will be focused on the task at hand with no distractions.

Some guys sing more or less continuously to their dogs to maintain contact and keep them out there which is rude and inconsiderate. I sing to my dogs occasionally and will give the other handler an opportunity to sing to theirs. However, if the other handler never , ever shuts up... I just raise the volume at the appropriate time and drown out the other handler for as long as it takes for them to get the message. Usually after their dog misses a cue, makes a wrong turn and is headed off in the wrong direction, so that the scout has to go chase the dog down and bring it back on course...they get the idea. Sometimes not.

Also, FWIW, if you watch experienced handlers, they very rarely use a whistle...they use their voice. The reason for that is quite simple. If both handlers have exactly the same brand of whistle, they will sound very similar. It is very much more unlikely that both handlers will have the same voice.

RayG

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

In my opinion the less yacking you need to do the better.
It takes time for them to get used to all the commotion of the gallery, horses, strange dogs, some guy yelling his head off, you will get to the point where when you are braced with someone like that you can just let him do the yacking for both of you, or just try to separate from him.

It is to be expected in your first trial, it takes some dogs longer than others to get used to that stuff.

Exactly right.

Although an AKC Gun Dog stake should be a relatively quiet affair, some judges allow more hacking and voice handling than others. It seems, in my area that the trend is for more noise, not less in Gundog stakes. That is actually unfortunate, in my view. In AF stakes there is almost always a lot of vocalizing....some singing, some hacking, some flat out hollering.

One of the very best things you can do is to get together with someone and practice. Have that person yell, whistle, sing, call their dog and in general carry on and you continue to walk/ride directing your dog with hand signals and minimal vocalization. Literally walk off in another direction when your dog responds to the other handler's hollering or whistles.

In fairly short order, your dog will learn to key on you and your signals, whatever they may be, and to simply filter out the rest as noise.

It is a really scummy thing to do deliberately, but folks have been known to holler or blow a whistle at the top of their lungs for their lost dog... in the immediate vicinity of where the other dog is on point. This can have a very distracting effect on the pointing dog. That is also something you should practice and condition the dog to...because it is going to happen. Many times it is due to ignorance or inattention on the part of the handler, but even when it is done innocently, it can still screw a dog up...big time... so you had better desensitize the dog to it.

Once the dog leans to pay attention to you and only you and to ignore all the other sources of distraction...you will be waaaay ahead because your dog will be focused on the task at hand with no distractions.

Some guys sing more or less continuously to their dogs to maintain contact and keep them out there which is rude and inconsiderate. I sing to my dogs occasionally and will give the other handler an opportunity to sing to theirs. However, if the other handler never , ever shuts up... I just raise the volume at the appropriate time and drown out the other handler for as long as it takes for them to get the message. Usually after their dog misses a cue, makes a wrong turn and is headed off in the wrong direction, so that the scout has to go chase the dog down and bring it back on course...they get the idea. Sometimes not.

Also, FWIW, if you watch experienced handlers, they very rarely use a whistle...they use their voice. The reason for that is quite simple. If both handlers have exactly the same brand of whistle, they will sound very similar. It is very much more unlikely that both handlers will have the same voice.

RayG

Ray.... Great post.

[Sharon]

Experience is the key. I don't use a whistle for that reason. Dog only responds to MY voice which is seldom needed- changing directions only usually.

[whatsnext]

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=47295

I LITERALLY had the same exact problem at my first trial this past Sunday. Other handler was hacking his dog and my pup would return to him to the point she actually ran into him 2-3 times.

There where a couple times my pup was just walking at the other handlers side because he was so confused by all the needless banter. Then I would send the pup off again and a few seconds later the other handler would whistle or sing and my pup would come right back to him, I know it is not the other handlers fault but man was I having a hard time hiding my frustration. My son was walking with me during the brace and after we were far enough away from everyone said I have never seen our pup stay so close and why was the other handler talking to his dog so much? I am going to try and get him in a few more trials before hunting starts and hopefully he will start ignoring the other handler's.

[SubMariner]

In my opinion the less yacking you need to do the better.
It takes time for them to get used to all the commotion of the gallery, horses, strange dogs, some guy yelling his head off, you will get to the point where when you are braced with someone like that you can just let him do the yacking for both of you, or just try to separate from him.

It is to be expected in your first trial, it takes some dogs longer than others to get used to that stuff.

Exactly right.

Although an AKC Gun Dog stake should be a relatively quiet affair, some judges allow more hacking and voice handling than others. It seems, in my area that the trend is for more noise, not less in Gundog stakes. That is actually unfortunate, in my view. In AF stakes there is almost always a lot of vocalizing....some singing, some hacking, some flat out hollering.

One of the very best things you can do is to get together with someone and practice. Have that person yell, whistle, sing, call their dog and in general carry on and you continue to walk/ride directing your dog with hand signals and minimal vocalization. Literally walk off in another direction when your dog responds to the other handler's hollering or whistles.

In fairly short order, your dog will learn to key on you and your signals, whatever they may be, and to simply filter out the rest as noise.

It is a really scummy thing to do deliberately, but folks have been known to holler or blow a whistle at the top of their lungs for their lost dog... in the immediate vicinity of where the other dog is on point. This can have a very distracting effect on the pointing dog. That is also something you should practice and condition the dog to...because it is going to happen. Many times it is due to ignorance or inattention on the part of the handler, but even when it is done innocently, it can still screw a dog up...big time... so you had better desensitize the dog to it.

Once the dog leans to pay attention to you and only you and to ignore all the other sources of distraction...you will be waaaay ahead because your dog will be focused on the task at hand with no distractions.

Some guys sing more or less continuously to their dogs to maintain contact and keep them out there which is rude and inconsiderate. I sing to my dogs occasionally and will give the other handler an opportunity to sing to theirs. However, if the other handler never , ever shuts up... I just raise the volume at the appropriate time and drown out the other handler for as long as it takes for them to get the message. Usually after their dog misses a cue, makes a wrong turn and is headed off in the wrong direction, so that the scout has to go chase the dog down and bring it back on course...they get the idea. Sometimes not.

Also, FWIW, if you watch experienced handlers, they very rarely use a whistle...they use their voice. The reason for that is quite simple. If both handlers have exactly the same brand of whistle, they will sound very similar. It is very much more unlikely that both handlers will have the same voice.

RayG

VERY well stated! Thanks for your great contributions.

[Soarer31]

Can understand using voice over whistle to make it less confusing for the dog but how's the dog going to hear the handler 5-600 yrds away especially hunting into the wind?

[Neil]

Can understand using voice over whistle to make it less confusing for the dog but how's the dog going to hear the handler 5-600 yrds away especially hunting into the wind?

They key off the horse.

The vocalizing is just part of the sport, really does't mater if it is within the rules, necessary, or even effective, it is what is done. Adapt or find another activity.

[RayGubernat]

Can understand using voice over whistle to make it less confusing for the dog but how's the dog going to hear the handler 5-600 yrds away especially hunting into the wind?

You have obviously not heard me sing! 400 yards in a howling wind is no problem,

But Neil is exactly right. Dogs will(or should) key of the horse, or the walking handler and their direction in the field.

RayG

[whatsnext]

Thanks for all the advice guy's it is much appreciated and if me or the pup can't adapt or deal with it I guess I will take my money and go elsewhere like Neil suggested. One thing I noticed is I was about half the age of everyone else so maybe it is a good thing if people like me stayed but I could be wrong. I am no expert on dog's but if I can get a dog to go where I want no matter how far they are from me in fields they never hunted before with saying very little than why can't it be done in a field trial and wouldn't that be better?

[shags]

It can be done, it is done, and yeah, it's really a lot better.

Stick with it, and your reward will come if your pup is as good as you think it is. Don't let one loudmouth bracemate run you off. In this game you'll run into all sorts of glitches; not everyone plays the same way. So the thing to do is let some stuff roll off, train for what you can, be as prepared as you can be, and show your dog. It's supposed to be fun, but if every annoyance becomes a stumbling block, you won't be able to enjoy the good parts.

I hope you give it another shot, and best of luck to you.

[kninebirddog]

In my opinion the less yacking you need to do the better.
It takes time for them to get used to all the commotion of the gallery, horses, strange dogs, some guy yelling his head off, you will get to the point where when you are braced with someone like that you can just let him do the yacking for both of you, or just try to separate from him.

It is to be expected in your first trial, it takes some dogs longer than others to get used to that stuff.

Exactly right.

Although an AKC Gun Dog stake should be a relatively quiet affair, some judges allow more hacking and voice handling than others. It seems, in my area that the trend is for more noise, not less in Gundog stakes. That is actually unfortunate, in my view. In AF stakes there is almost always a lot of vocalizing....some singing, some hacking, some flat out hollering.

One of the very best things you can do is to get together with someone and practice. Have that person yell, whistle, sing, call their dog and in general carry on and you continue to walk/ride directing your dog with hand signals and minimal vocalization. Literally walk off in another direction when your dog responds to the other handler's hollering or whistles.

In fairly short order, your dog will learn to key on you and your signals, whatever they may be, and to simply filter out the rest as noise.

It is a really scummy thing to do deliberately, but folks have been known to holler or blow a whistle at the top of their lungs for their lost dog... in the immediate vicinity of where the other dog is on point. This can have a very distracting effect on the pointing dog. That is also something you should practice and condition the dog to...because it is going to happen. Many times it is due to ignorance or inattention on the part of the handler, but even when it is done innocently, it can still screw a dog up...big time... so you had better desensitize the dog to it.

Once the dog leans to pay attention to you and only you and to ignore all the other sources of distraction...you will be waaaay ahead because your dog will be focused on the task at hand with no distractions.

Some guys sing more or less continuously to their dogs to maintain contact and keep them out there which is rude and inconsiderate. I sing to my dogs occasionally and will give the other handler an opportunity to sing to theirs. However, if the other handler never , ever shuts up... I just raise the volume at the appropriate time and drown out the other handler for as long as it takes for them to get the message. Usually after their dog misses a cue, makes a wrong turn and is headed off in the wrong direction, so that the scout has to go chase the dog down and bring it back on course...they get the idea. Sometimes not.

Also, FWIW, if you watch experienced handlers, they very rarely use a whistle...they use their voice. The reason for that is quite simple. If both handlers have exactly the same brand of whistle, they will sound very similar. It is very much more unlikely that both handlers will have the same voice.



RayG

AMEN
There is NOTHING more OBNOXIOUS then a Handler that is constantly making Noise
The constant singer is just as bad as the one that yells his dogs name for the entire brace..even worse if your stuck judging these vocal people.
I understand when you have brought the evil twin dog that is giving you the paw and tail but if your dog is doing its job there is no reason to constantly spew out vocal garbage.

[MillerClemsonHD]

To me the biggest problem with most folks singing at trials is neither they or their dog know what they heck they are hollering about. I sing multiple different things to my dogs and all of them have a meaning to me, my dog, and my scout. The dog knows what I am asking and my scout knows when I need help. I spend more time working on handling in training than I do bird work once they are reliable on birds. They gotta go with you and know what you are asking to put on the best show possible. If you are going to trial there is a lot to be gained from training in braces. Also if you spend time watching enough gun dog stakes you can learn a lot about handling. Everyone has their own style that works for them and their dogs.

It is obvious to me and probably many others when someone is making noise and when someone is handling with a purpose.

Age isn't a disadvantage in this game and honestly can be an advantage especially in walking trials. Success will come from hard work and willingness to learn. There are a lot of young folks participating and having success in this game.

[whatsnext]

It can be done, it is done, and yeah, it's really a lot better.

Stick with it, and your reward will come if your pup is as good as you think it is. Don't let one loudmouth bracemate run you off. In this game you'll run into all sorts of glitches; not everyone plays the same way. So the thing to do is let some stuff roll off, train for what you can, be as prepared as you can be, and show your dog. It's supposed to be fun, but if every annoyance becomes a stumbling block, you won't be able to enjoy the good parts.

I hope you give it another shot, and best of luck to you.

The noisy handler's and the pen raised birds are the only part about field trials I do not like, everything else is very enjoyable and the people are very friendly and helpful. One lady even let my kids ride her horses which I thought was great and my kids really enjoyed it. As far as my pup being any good I don't know but I would be happy if he would just run in field trials like he does when we are hunting.

[Neil]

Thanks for all the advice guy's it is much appreciated and if me or the pup can't adapt or deal with it I guess I will take my money and go elsewhere like Neil suggested. One thing I noticed is I was about half the age of everyone else so maybe it is a good thing if people like me stayed but I could be wrong. I am no expert on dog's but if I can get a dog to go where I want no matter how far they are from me in fields they never hunted before with saying very little than why can't it be done in a field trial and wouldn't that be better?

I am sorry I was curt, I hope you adapt and learn the sport, we need you, I think you will find i can be enjoyable. I was trying to say you can't expect the sport to change to fit you.

[whatsnext]

Thanks for all the advice guy's it is much appreciated and if me or the pup can't adapt or deal with it I guess I will take my money and go elsewhere like Neil suggested. One thing I noticed is I was about half the age of everyone else so maybe it is a good thing if people like me stayed but I could be wrong. I am no expert on dog's but if I can get a dog to go where I want no matter how far they are from me in fields they never hunted before with saying very little than why can't it be done in a field trial and wouldn't that be better?

I am sorry I was curt, I hope you adapt and learn the sport, we need you, I think you will find i can be enjoyable. I was trying to say you can't expect the sport to change to fit you.

I was just being a wise arse Neil and I enjoy your candidness.

[Elkhunter]

Other handlers will notice it messes with your dog and they will continue doing it. It will get better with time. Remember FT's are a game, learn how to play and beat the others.

[Sharon]

Thanks for all the advice guy's it is much appreciated and if me or the pup can't adapt or deal with it I guess I will take my money and go elsewhere like Neil suggested. One thing I noticed is I was about half the age of everyone else so maybe it is a good thing if people like me stayed but I could be wrong. I am no expert on dog's but if I can get a dog to go where I want no matter how far they are from me in fields they never hunted before with saying very little than why can't it be done in a field trial and wouldn't that be better?

Absolutely'
and it does takes lots of opportunities to get the experience you need. One has to remember that it is a COMPETITION. Folks want to win. I could tell you many things that more experienced handler did to win , knowing I was not as knowledgeable and could be taken advantage of. However every time a "trick" was pulled , I learned not to set myself up like that again. Needing to win often brings out the worst in people.
I could also tell you of MANY times when a Pro etc helped me to be more successful while braced with me.

Competition isn't for every one. I tell folks who are not having fun in competition to consider hunt tests.

................................................................................

"I am no expert on dog's but if I can get a dog to go where I want no matter how far they are from me in fields they never hunted before with saying very little than why can't it be done in a field trial and wouldn't that be better?" quote What'snext
..........

Remember that field trials have been happening since the 1800s . They are what they are. Don't expect changes in field demeanor.