Judging With an Open Mind

[Neil]

I call it positive judging, others giving the dog the benefit of the doubt. In my mind we want the best dog, not a mediocre error free one. I have heard it explained a rough diamond versus a polished stone.

Example, a dog uses the wind, smartly going objective to objective, points with great style, but moves a slight bit on the flush over a plodder that stops on point with little intensity, yet is motionless.

What do you all think?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I agree Neil but there are those that think number of finds trumps all.I want a dog that finds birds with class & style not their tail between their legs & piddles around while hunting.

[shags]

Overall quality, not quantity.

A bobble means nothing to me if the overall ground race is good; perfect manners mean nothing to me if the dog doesn't show desire and class in his race, application, and point.

[Sharon]

I call it positive judging, others giving the dog the benefit of the doubt. In my mind we want the best dog, not a mediocre error free one. I have heard it explained a rough diamond versus a polished stone.

Example, a dog uses the wind, smartly going objective to objective, points with great style, but moves a slight bit on the flush over a plodder that stops on point with little intensity, yet is motionless.

What do you all think?

Exactly , but hard for a gallery to understand, as many don't see these differences. I wouldn't want a judge's job for anything.

(I can now tell the derby dog that's going to be a shooting dog star - all things being equal- and it's thrilling to see.)

[gonehuntin']

I think you need it all and that's a problem. If you have a stylish ground burner with poor manners, the dog may deserve to win but the owner doesn't. He's lazy and didn't do his job. I think a CHAMPION needs it all; desire, style, ability, TRAINING. If one is missing he, nor the owner, deserve to be called "CHAMPION".

If someone doesn't want to train their dog, let them run NA tests.

[Neil]

There was a National Champion named at Ames that had 12 clean, stylish finds and chased like a puppy on the 13th. Reportedly he was by far the best dog on the ground, not only running bigger, going to the right places, with 3 or 4 more finds.

I understand their logic, but I am not sure I have the strength of character to put up a dog that out and out chased. I was talking about a small bobble, half a step or so; a breach, but not a knock out. And I am more likely to forgive it after 2 or 3 clean finds. But I got to ask, if it happened on the first find, how do you know they won't go on to be clean on multiple contacts? It is rarely easy to forgive a mistake.

Neil

[kninebirddog]

I call it positive judging, others giving the dog the benefit of the doubt. In my mind we want the best dog, not a mediocre error free one. I have heard it explained a rough diamond versus a polished stone.

Example, a dog uses the wind, smartly going objective to objective, points with great style, but moves a slight bit on the flush over a plodder that stops on point with little intensity, yet is motionless.

What do you all think?

For me I rather see the dog that makes me take notice a few tiny steps for Mark and a slight touch of that I GOT BIRD intensity is far better then a then a dog that pidders and stumbles into birds and lacks luster

To edit and add Give me the real dog not some mechanical machine that is going through the motions

[gonehuntin']

For me Neil, I want the whole package. I despise dogs with no style and drive. BUT. If two dogs are equal, and one has a small step or bobble, it's wrong not to place the more perfect dog. However, if I were looking at a hard driving, bird finding machine with only very small faults, I'd want to see that dog placed over a dog showing a lack-luster performance but with perfect manners.

To me, tremendous style does not negate thorough training, nor does impeccable training negate a lack of style. A true Champion should have both.

[Neil]

I, too, want the whole package, but it is very rare, almost as rare as equal performances. They almost always separate themselves by a good margin. Great dogs will have a poor day, good dogs will have a great day, and then a great dog will have an even greater day (but almost never a perfect day) I find if you look for greatness, what they do right, as opposed to a reason to throw one out, you are more likely to find it.

I try to judge how they hunt, not how far they are from the judges horse or how still they stay. Their use of wind, going to objectives, staying with the handler, animation, endurance, and the desire to find game above all else. Class and style.

I have not seen many ties, when I did we had a second series.

Neil

[DonF]

Seem's to me I read about that at Ames. Judges had a lot of gut's putting that dog up maybe but, does one total screw up in 3 hours wipe out 12 perfect finds? Wouldn't in my book.

One of the last trials I judged a very nice Brittany had a back on course. Really nice back and the owner just stood next to it obviously knowing the dog wouldn't move. Got into the bird field and the handler, true mature in an AGD stake, called his dog off a back. I got to the handler and explained to him that he couldn't do that and left the dog down. The dog had done nothing wrong! It went on for two more finds in the bird fields and two excellent retrieve's, gave the dog a 2nd. people were upset that I'd left the dog down after that and were mortified that it got a second. The job of a judge is not to find reasons not to use a dog but rather reason's to use a dog. And picking up a dog for a handler mistake is to me a disservice.

[Neil]

Seem's to me I read about that at Ames. Judges had a lot of gut's putting that dog up maybe but, does one total screw up in 3 hours wipe out 12 perfect finds? Wouldn't in my book.

One of the last trials I judged a very nice Brittany had a back on course. Really nice back and the owner just stood next to it obviously knowing the dog wouldn't move. Got into the bird field and the handler, true mature in an AGD stake, called his dog off a back. I got to the handler and explained to him that he couldn't do that and left the dog down. The dog had done nothing wrong! It went on for two more finds in the bird fields and two excellent retrieve's, gave the dog a 2nd. people were upset that I'd left the dog down after that and were mortified that it got a second. The job of a judge is not to find reasons not to use a dog but rather reason's to use a dog. And picking up a dog for a handler mistake is to me a disservice.

Don,

I like the way you think, but be prepared to take some flack, here and when you judge. I would run a dog under you anytime. Wouldn't always agree with you, but you are a man of conviction, I will take it.

[Sharon]

Seem's to me I read about that at Ames. Judges had a lot of gut's putting that dog up maybe but, does one total screw up in 3 hours wipe out 12 perfect finds? Wouldn't in my book.

One of the last trials I judged a very nice Brittany had a back on course. Really nice back and the owner just stood next to it obviously knowing the dog wouldn't move. Got into the bird field and the handler, true mature in an AGD stake, called his dog off a back. I got to the handler and explained to him that he couldn't do that and left the dog down. The dog had done nothing wrong! It went on for two more finds in the bird fields and two excellent retrieve's, gave the dog a 2nd. people were upset that I'd left the dog down after that and were mortified that it got a second. The job of a judge is not to find reasons not to use a dog but rather reason's to use a dog. And picking up a dog for a handler mistake is to me a disservice.

Very interesting thoughts. I was told you can call a dog off a back but your perspective on that is interesting.

"The job of a judge is not to find reasons not to use a dog , but rather reasons to use a dog." quote That is a golden thought.

[Neil]

The AKC Rules says a dog refusing to back, and if the handler or dog avoids a back, should be severely penalized. Perhaps dropping from 1st to 2nd could be considered severe. It is a rule often ignored, unless it results in a stolen point, I concur, a thief cannot be tolerated.

[Sharon]

Ah I was thinking of the American Field rules.

[Neil]

Ah I was thinking of the American Field rules.

Other than the Minimum Requirements there are no written rules for American Field, the AFTCA Guidelines do require all to back save the Fall Derbies. The guidelines do ask that you try to put yourself in the Dog's place, some 2 feet off the ground.

Many think it is a strength that American Field relies on oral tradition, I agree.

As I learned the tradition it is important to give the benefit of any doubt to the dog, in backing and all other matters.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

The AKC Rules says a dog refusing to back, and if the handler or dog avoids a back, should be severely penalized. Perhaps dropping from 1st to 2nd could be considered severe. It is a rule often ignored, unless it results in a stolen point, I concur, a thief cannot be tolerated.

One of my dogs got picked up for failing to honor and the Judges had no dogs on their card (no bird work) and it was 3 to the last brace. The dog that we failed to honor went on to have a non productive.

[shags]

One of my dogs got picked up for failing to honor and the Judges had no dogs on their card (no bird work) and it was 3 to the last brace. The dog that we failed to honor went on to have a non productive.

One of my dogs got the hook for failing to back a dog that stopped to look around or pee or whatever. It was standing there like a sack of potatos. Judge said dog should back whenever the bracement is standing still, doesn't have to be pointed.
My mind wasn't so open to that idea LOL.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

One of my dogs got picked up for failing to honor and the Judges had no dogs on their card (no bird work) and it was 3 to the last brace. The dog that we failed to honor went on to have a non productive.

One of my dogs got the hook for failing to back a dog that stopped to look around or pee or whatever. It was standing there like a sack of potatos. Judge said dog should back whenever the bracement is standing still, doesn't have to be pointed.
My mind wasn't so open to that idea LOL.

Your mind wasn't open to that thought??? Seriously?? $55 entry fee.pooooof!! I appreciate Judges and know they do it to "give back" to the sport so I never argued with the Judge but someone should sit down with the guy and give them a little constructive coaching.

[fuzznut]

Sometimes newer or less confident judges look for reasons (or so it seems) to get dogs out of the competition. Let em run, sort em out at the end!

[Neil]

One of my dogs got picked up for failing to honor and the Judges had no dogs on their card (no bird work) and it was 3 to the last brace. The dog that we failed to honor went on to have a non productive.

One of my dogs got the hook for failing to back a dog that stopped to look around or pee or whatever. It was standing there like a sack of potatos. Judge said dog should back whenever the bracement is standing still, doesn't have to be pointed.
My mind wasn't so open to that idea LOL.

I have found those that judge that way have never hunted wild birds, but have really good reading skills when it comes to the letter of rules, lacking comprehension of the real world.

I calmly, and over politely explain to the Field trial chairman if they have that judge or ones like him, I won't be back.

A shame.

[DonF]

I was running my old Drifter in an open gun dog years ago. Had Gene Pullen judging me. The other dog went on point the other side of some heavy sage brush. Drifter I found backing maybe a step out of the sage brush. I got to him and the other judge told me to pick him up. I did and as I walked back past Gene, he asked what I was doing, told him the other judge told me to pick him up. I was back with the wife and couple of friends after the brace and Gene came over and apologized. Seem's Drifter had got picked up for a possible interference. The claim was that they saw him coming in and the other handler wauped my dog or he would have interfered. So I didn't get the idea of a possible interference and what was with the other handler wauping my dog? Waup meant absolutely nothing to Drifter, probably the first time he ever hear the word. Drifter was one of the fastest and staunchest dog's I've ever seen. Possible interference? Other handler allowed to handle my dog?

[Neil]

Sometimes newer or less confident judges look for reasons (or so it seems) to get dogs out of the competition. Let em run, sort em out at the end!

It is why, short of the handler or dog interfering with the bracemate, I don't pick them up.

I once had a fellow judge watch a dog have a deliberate stop to knock, the handler asked if she should pick him up. The old judge replied, "Well he sure enough is in a bit of a hole, but with 3 or 4 clean finds he might dig himself out".

[Neil]

I was running my old Drifter in an open gun dog years ago. Had Gene Pullen judging me. The other dog went on point the other side of some heavy sage brush. Drifter I found backing maybe a step out of the sage brush. I got to him and the other judge told me to pick him up. I did and as I walked back past Gene, he asked what I was doing, told him the other judge told me to pick him up. I was back with the wife and couple of friends after the brace and Gene came over and apologized. Seem's Drifter had got picked up for a possible interference. The claim was that they saw him coming in and the other handler wauped my dog or he would have interfered. So I didn't get the idea of a possible interference and what was with the other handler wauping my dog? Waup meant absolutely nothing to Drifter, probably the first time he ever hear the word. Drifter was one of the fastest and staunchest dog's I've ever seen. Possible interference? Other handler allowed to handle my dog?

I hope stories like this will teach others how not to judge.

[Sharon]

Ah I was thinking of the American Field rules.

Other than the Minimum Requirements there are no written rules for American Field, the AFTCA Guidelines do require all to back save the Fall Derbies. The guidelines do ask that you try to put yourself in the Dog's place, some 2 feet off the ground.

Many think it is a strength that American Field relies on oral tradition, I agree.

As I learned the tradition it is important to give the benefit of any doubt to the dog, in backing and all other matters.

............

Thank you - saving that post.

"The old judge replied, "Well he sure enough is in a bit of a hole, but with 3 or 4 clean finds he might dig himself out". quote

LOL I love it!
.................

I have many maddening stories to tell too.

#1 Judges weren't on the scene yet - back around a corner. When they arrived the other handler shouted " Her dog stole the point!" The judges who hadn't seen anything told me to pick my dog up. ( My dog had stolen the point but that wasn't the point. )

#2 My dog had obviously been the best dog in the stake. The judge came to me privately and said, " You've had lots of placements and ........hasn't had any . We're going to give it to ...............to day." That was my last time at that event.
.................

I also have had many EXCELLENT judges who called it as they saw it.

[dan v]

Sometimes newer or less confident judges look for reasons (or so it seems) to get dogs out of the competition. Let em run, sort em out at the end!

It is by the easiest method for an insecure judge to manage the stake...pick-up all the dogs that have a minor bobble (and all the major bobbles)...whittle a 30 stake down to 5-6, then it's not too hard to get the "winner" correct.

It is much harder to leave'em down and sort'em out. Further more, by leaving the dog down that has the minor bobble, you can use them if you need to to...but when they are on the rope....you can't.

[Grange]

Ah I was thinking of the American Field rules.

Other than the Minimum Requirements there are no written rules for American Field, the AFTCA Guidelines do require all to back save the Fall Derbies. The guidelines do ask that you try to put yourself in the Dog's place, some 2 feet off the ground.

Many think it is a strength that American Field relies on oral tradition, I agree.

As I learned the tradition it is important to give the benefit of any doubt to the dog, in backing and all other matters.

AFTCA:

Backing
Section 14. In an All-Age or Shooting Dog Stake, it is mandatory that a judge order a dog up
if that dog demonstrates conclusively that is refused to back its bracemate.

I was in a trial where my dog's bracemate had steady creep at my dog who was on point. The dog had a clear view of my dog and it showed no signs of stopping it's creep until the other handler finally yelled "Whoa" to which the dog stopped when the dog was about 10 yards or so from my dog. My dog was DQ'd shortly afterwards for breach in manners on the next bird and the other dog received a placement. Had I been judging the dog probably would have been ordered up. I personally feel that if you have to whoa your dog on a back it is not backing, but complying with the whoa command. I work very hard at backing with my dog because she is not a natural backer, but she will back.

When I'm judging I will make note if the handler has to use the whoa command on dog for backing, but I usually won't order a dog up unless it's clear the dog wasn't going to back. I will also make note if the handler actively calls his/her dog from a backing opportunity, but that in and of itself won't hurt the dog too bad since I don't view it as the dog's fault and I have no way of knowing if the dog would have refused to back. The only time that could come into play is if is neck and neck with another dog in placement potential. Now keep in mind I've only judged weekend trials and have not judged a Championship where expectations in manners may be higher.

[Neil]

Grange,

The AFTCA is the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America, a separate organization from American Field, and the AFTCA Guidelines, from which you pulled the requirement to back, do not apply to Open trials.

Open trials have oral tradition.

Neil.

[RayGubernat]

Grange,

The AFTCA is the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America, a separate organization from American Field, and the AFTCA Guidelines, from which you pulled the requirement to back, do not apply to Open trials.

Open trials have oral tradition.

Neil.

To me the backing situation with adult dogs in adult stakes is clean cut. If the judge knows that a dog saw the bracing dog on a rigid point and failed to back...that dog gets the hook. If a handler hollers "whoa" and the dog stops and backs ... the dog stopped and backed. It did not give conclusive evidence that it refused to back. Not great...not impressive, and I will be watching that dog like a hawk... but a back is a back and the dog stays down. The only time that gets murky is when the dog that is pointing is doing so with questionable style, flagging creeping, head or feet moving about, etc. simply put... If I ain't sure the pointing dog is really pointing, I ain't gonna fault the bracing dog for getting the he!! out of there before something bad happens.

With derbies, spring or fall, the bigger question for me is did the failure to back cross over the line into interference? If a derby flat out blinked a back and went merrily on its way... I am fine with that. If both derbies were ripping birds and chasing, I am fine with that. If a derby went in and ripped the bird its bracemate was rigidly pointing...I ain't so fine with that and I don't care whether it is fall or spring. I really do not like interference in any shape or form, but that is just me. I do struggle with where to draw the line between a derby failing to back(which I don't give much weight) and interference.

RayG






ea

[Grange]

Grange,

The AFTCA is the Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America, a separate organization from American Field, and the AFTCA Guidelines, from which you pulled the requirement to back, do not apply to Open trials.

Open trials have oral tradition.

Neil.

I understand that which is why I wrote AFTCA above instead of AF. I wasn't trying to challenge your comment about the American Field and oral traditions. I was just posting the AFTCA Guideline on backing since your post mentioned it. I've read the minimum requirements for field trials by AF, but never read anything about running rules by AF. There are running rules for Open stakes from other Associations advertised in American Field that do address backing.

[Trekmoor]

I don't understand some of the terminology used in this thread but I think I get the gist of the feelings behind it. Judges have to judge according to the rules but more than once I have wanted to take a non-placed or even eliminated dog home with me rather than the dog which won the trial.
I greatly prefer a dog that runs as if it's life depended on it and maybe makes a mistake to a dog that almost sends me to sleep but which commits no actual faults.

I used to tell competitors prior to the trial that if I had time to yawn and scratch my backside during a dogs run then it would be very unlikely to win.

Bill T.

[RoostersMom]

I like Bill's response. I too, have wanted to take my dog home much more than others who have placed above her/him that day. At then end of the day, I'm glad I've got what I've got and I wouldn't take some of those other dogs (champion or not) if you tied a hundred dollar bill to their collar and handed them to me.

I do love a judge that helps a newbie out though! By help, I mean verbal help, not giving a placement away.

[DonF]

I don't understand some of the terminology used in this thread but I think I get the gist of the feelings behind it. Judges have to judge according to the rules but more than once I have wanted to take a non-placed or even eliminated dog home with me rather than the dog which won the trial.
I greatly prefer a dog that runs as if it's life depended on it and maybe makes a mistake to a dog that almost sends me to sleep but which commits no actual faults.

I used to tell competitors prior to the trial that if I had time to yawn and scratch my backside during a dogs run then it would be very unlikely to win.

Bill T.

Yes judges are supposed to judge according to the rules but, interpretation of the rules is the prerogative of the judges.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

A lot of the rules in AKC are "subjective" such as the term "severely penalized". As Neil mentioned in the original post should it be dropping a dog from 1st to 2nd or as Ray points out he "orders them up". AKC discusses "disqualification" which a lot centers around interference and or fighting. Not sure there is any right or wrong answers to the question.

On a related but different note, I am not a hunt test guy but I have heard that judging has really softened up to the point that many believe the quality of a Master Hunter is not the same it was years ago.