Losing style on flush

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Gertie
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Losing style on flush

Post by Gertie » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:45 pm

I've gone out a couple of times to help a friend steady his pup (15 months) before hunting season and noticed something interesting I've never seen before. The dog holds beautifully and stands with a lot of style until you walk out in front of him to flush. As soon as the person flushing walks past him his tail drops and his intensity goes away. Friend said he's just always done it and he didn't think anything of it but I find it concerning. Anyone ever seen this? Any ideas as to why it's happening and/or how to fix it?

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by art hubbard » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:00 pm

yes I saw the exact same thing some years ago. A gsp female was good at finding birds with a nice stylish point, but as soon as you walked past her she would lose that style and seem to lose interest. My feelings is that she was ruffed up for creeping in on the bird when she was being trained.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by 10Sam29 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:47 pm

Or the pup hasn't had the fun of being able retrieve a bird after the point and flush. I don't know if it has been shot over, but it sounds like she knows at this point (no pun intended) that when the flush occurs, her fun for the moment is gone until the next. Maybe start incorporating some live birds.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Gertie » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:19 pm

Thanks for the replies. Just FYI, we were using live birds and he has shot a couple over him. He swears he hasn't done anything that he can think of that could have caused it. I'm wondering if excessive use of 'whoa' or e-collar could be the problem but not sure. Would definitely like to hear more ideas on how to resolve the issue.

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:19 pm

Surely could be excessive pressure ( in the dogs mind not the owners)..... But its hard to tell from here. It is still a young dog......

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:38 pm

Typically losing style as the handler goes by is the result of pressure or boredom The trainer may not think there is pressure, but it is what is in the dog's head that is important.

The other thing is that the act of walking past can be distracting to a young dog. Also any flushing attempts should be done gently and quietly with a minimum of thrashing about.

Anyhow, the fix is usually to get the dog interested and excited again. Most often that means...mix it up, do something dsifferent, keep the dog guessing. Change your training routine, change your venue or how you go through your training field. Do it backwards, for example. You can walk up near the dog on point, and launch the bird...without walking up front. Then go and stroke the dog up and style it up after the bird is gone. Then walk in front and if the dog maintains style... toss a pigeon. if is loses style, go back, style it up, stroke it up and gently push its back and such, to intensify the "point". Then take a step to the side and toss a pigeon. That should get the dog back up on its toes.

You can put a bird in a kick cage and a second bird in a remote launcher. If the dog is pointing the kick cage, hitthe launch button. if the dog is pointing the launcher, kick the cage. Either way the dog should stay tight because the bird it is pointing is still there.

Mix it up, keep it fresh, keep the dog guessing how many birds are going to be in the air. That keeps them standing tall 'till well after the flush.

You can also do some yardwork drills. Style the dog up on the ground or on a bench and work on styling the dog and having it stand there and not let down while you walk in, out, down, back and whatever. Having a helper toss pigeons from a hide...with the dog standing in the yard, might help also.

I do a whole lo of yardwork drills on a dog stopping nd standing and not letting down. I keep at it until the dog will stand there with high style, no matter where I walk and that includes stepping over the dog's back. when you can step over a dog in the yard and it does not lose style...you got something. If I can do it...anybody can do it. Repetition, praise, encouragement, praise more repetition and above all, that most precious commodity...patience. Keep it fun, keep it fresh, keep the dog interested and engaged.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by shags » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:16 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Typically losing style as the handler goes by is the result of pressure or boredom The trainer may not think there is pressure, but it is what is in the dog's head that is important.

The other thing is that the act of walking past can be distracting to a young dog. Also any flushing attempts should be done gently and quietly with a minimum of thrashing about.

Anyhow, the fix is usually to get the dog interested and excited again. Most often that means...mix it up, do something dsifferent, keep the dog guessing. Change your training routine, change your venue or how you go through your training field. Do it backwards, for example. You can walk up near the dog on point, and launch the bird...without walking up front. Then go and stroke the dog up and style it up after the bird is gone. Then walk in front and if the dog maintains style... toss a pigeon. if is loses style, go back, style it up, stroke it up and gently push its back and such, to intensify the "point". Then take a step to the side and toss a pigeon. That should get the dog back up on its toes.

You can put a bird in a kick cage and a second bird in a remote launcher. If the dog is pointing the kick cage, hitthe launch button. if the dog is pointing the launcher, kick the cage. Either way the dog should stay tight because the bird it is pointing is still there.

Mix it up, keep it fresh, keep the dog guessing how many birds are going to be in the air. That keeps them standing tall 'till well after the flush.

You can also do some yardwork drills. Style the dog up on the ground or on a bench and work on styling the dog and having it stand there and not let down while you walk in, out, down, back and whatever. Having a helper toss pigeons from a hide...with the dog standing in the yard, might help also.

I do a whole lo of yardwork drills on a dog stopping nd standing and not letting down. I keep at it until the dog will stand there with high style, no matter where I walk and that includes stepping over the dog's back. when you can step over a dog in the yard and it does not lose style...you got something. If I can do it...anybody can do it. Repetition, praise, encouragement, praise more repetition and above all, that most precious commodity...patience. Keep it fun, keep it fresh, keep the dog interested and engaged.

RayG

That's just what I was gonna say! :lol: :lol: Only add, during all/any of this Shut The Heck Up!!!! No talking.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Neil » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:29 pm

They nailed it.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DonF » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:38 pm

Holly, when your friend goes around the dog for the bird, watch the dog. Go around to the front and come in at the dog. The trap should be between the handler and the dog. The handler knows exactly where the bird is, use it to his advantage. Don't kick grass ect. go to the bird and flush it. But, keep his eyes on the dog, very important to watch the dog. If the dog so much as glance's toward the handler, pop immediately! The more you allow the dog to get away with the more it will try. Once he pop's the bird, don't say a thing, just walk away. Go to the next bird.

I think the thing people who train on wild birds miss about the launcher and training birds like pigeons is that if the handler doesn't handle the bird like a wild bird then heck no, gonna be more work and a soft dog.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Soarer31 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:27 pm

[

I do a whole lo of yardwork drills on a dog stopping nd standing and not letting down. I keep at it until the dog will stand there with high style, no matter where I walk and that includes stepping over the dog's back. when you can step over a dog in the yard and it does not lose style...you got something. If I can do it...anybody can do it. Repetition, praise, encouragement, praise more repetition and above all, that most precious commodity...patience. Keep it fun, keep it fresh, keep the dog interested and engaged.

RayG[/quote]

So what your saying is you create the
style in the dog ?
Thought style is natural
I train to flush on command so I haven't seen this problem before , but the way I"d try to fix this ( and I'm no expert ) to take a very wide birth around the dog as soon as you get in the dogs peripheral vision pop the bird and shoot it let the dog retrieve it , hopefully that might just keep the dog interested and intense

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by shags » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:30 am

No. God creates the style, we try to maintain it.

There are different ways to do so, and Ray's drills are one of them. IMO it's much easier to never lose it in the first place. Dogs let down because they anticipate something bad is going to happen with the flush or shot. If the flush or shot is always something positive in the dog's mind, even if a correction had to made, the dog will stand high and proud through them.

To fix let-down, the owner in the OP is going to have to be very honest with himself about what brought the problem about ( think like the dog) then use a multi-pronged approach from the suggestions here. Which ones depends on what happened in the first place.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:10 am

Likely what the dog perceives as too much pressure to be steady to flush or could be problem with the gun which the dog knows is coming immediately after the flush................Cj

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:42 am

Soarer31 wrote:[

I do a whole lo of yardwork drills on a dog stopping nd standing and not letting down. I keep at it until the dog will stand there with high style, no matter where I walk and that includes stepping over the dog's back. when you can step over a dog in the yard and it does not lose style...you got something. If I can do it...anybody can do it. Repetition, praise, encouragement, praise more repetition and above all, that most precious commodity...patience. Keep it fun, keep it fresh, keep the dog interested and engaged.

RayG
So what your saying is you create the
style in the dog ?
Thought style is natural
I train to flush on command so I haven't seen this problem before , but the way I"d try to fix this ( and I'm no expert ) to take a very wide birth around the dog as soon as you get in the dogs peripheral vision pop the bird and shoot it let the dog retrieve it , hopefully that might just keep the dog interested and intense
.......................................................................................

Soarer

Thank you so very much for attempting to put words in my mouth.

I truly appreciate that.

As Shags said, God and the breeder put the style in there. Our job as trainers is to keep what is in there and to develop it, refine it and bring it out to the maximum extent possible.

When you have a dog that is high and tight on both ends as you approach, with both its eyes fixed...like dual lasers on the direction of the scent and huffing in that scent in short puffs... that is the kind of style and intensity that God and the breeder put in there, if you are fortunate. as sporting dog folks...tht is or should be what we want to see.

The ability of the dog to focus on that scent and not so much as twitch, all through flush and shot and fall and especially to maintain that high style until the handler physically takes hold of the dog, or releases it for the retrieve, is only partly a product of God and the breeder. Getting even the most talented and gifted dog all the way there takes training, encouragement, development, patience, persistence and a bit of skill.

RayG

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Soarer31 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:35 pm

No , not at all
Just seen a lot of photos of dogs on point weather there Pointers , Setters, GSPs high on both ends so I'm assuming this to be the preferred style of the breeder/ trainer/ owner

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:59 am

DonF wrote:Holly, when your friend goes around the dog for the bird, watch the dog. Go around to the front and come in at the dog. The trap should be between the handler and the dog. The handler knows exactly where the bird is, use it to his advantage. Don't kick grass ect. go to the bird and flush it. But, keep his eyes on the dog, very important to watch the dog. If the dog so much as glance's toward the handler, pop immediately! The more you allow the dog to get away with the more it will try. Once he pop's the bird, don't say a thing, just walk away. Go to the next bird.

I think the thing people who train on wild birds miss about the launcher and training birds like pigeons is that if the handler doesn't handle the bird like a wild bird then heck no, gonna be more work and a soft dog.
Best way to keep the anticipation and excitement high that there is. Sometimes instead of going on to the next launcher, have multiple launchers so the dog is never sure of how many birds are there but is always filled with the anticipation of another bird.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Gertie » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:12 pm

Thanks for all the responses. Nice to know I'm in good company in my concern that something is going on that shouldn't be. I'm going to show him this post and hopefully we can put our heads together and come up with a plan. Sure appreciate all of you who have so much experience sharing what you know.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DonF » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:03 am

Soarer31 wrote:No , not at all
Just seen a lot of photos of dogs on point weather there Pointers , Setters, GSPs high on both ends so I'm assuming this to be the preferred style of the breeder/ trainer/ owner
A good number of dogs high on both ends lack intensity. They have been groomed to a fault. They get so used to being fooled with that they let down. Stand up well and a lot of people like that but lack intensity. Dog hit's a bird, leave it alone, what you see is what you get. Bodie is down in front quite often but nobody has ever told me he look's bad. My guy's hit a bird, haw they do it is between them and the bird, I stay out of it. Amazing to see some of the dog's actually grow as your walking up to the dog. They are anticipating being groomed. Watch closely a handler go to his dog and style it before going in to flush. The dog does grow and few actually stay up. Most lose it as the handler walks in to find the bird though. IMO I like to see a dog maintain the position it hit the bird in. I don't care for a dog all but laying down though.

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Post by birddog1968 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:57 pm

Wehle used to toss stones in front of the dog in front of multiple launchers. From wing and shot video.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by birddogger » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:03 pm

DonF wrote:
Soarer31 wrote:No , not at all
Just seen a lot of photos of dogs on point weather there Pointers , Setters, GSPs high on both ends so I'm assuming this to be the preferred style of the breeder/ trainer/ owner
A good number of dogs high on both ends lack intensity. They have been groomed to a fault. They get so used to being fooled with that they let down. Stand up well and a lot of people like that but lack intensity. Dog hit's a bird, leave it alone, what you see is what you get. Bodie is down in front quite often but nobody has ever told me he look's bad. My guy's hit a bird, haw they do it is between them and the bird, I stay out of it. Amazing to see some of the dog's actually grow as your walking up to the dog. They are anticipating being groomed. Watch closely a handler go to his dog and style it before going in to flush. The dog does grow and few actually stay up. Most lose it as the handler walks in to find the bird though. IMO I like to see a dog maintain the position it hit the bird in. I don't care for a dog all but laying down though.
+1 and thank you!! Every time I have tried to say this, I have been crucified. : :lol:

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Post by birddog1968 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:33 am

Depends how they get high on both ends.....

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Re:

Post by birddogger » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:06 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Depends how they get high on both ends.....
Yes.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:18 pm

Anybody that thinks that Honkytonk Attitude lacked intensity is making excuses for their dog not being high and tight. If they are trained right on the barrel, they have intensity and are high on both ends. And they are not messed with while on point. The training took place long before.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:41 am

Are these dogs not intense?? :?
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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DGFavor » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:16 am

Are these dogs not intense??
Like all things subjective, there is no right answer to the question - it's a personal thing. Personally I find the pictured style "pretty", "statuesque" and "picturesque" but not particularly "intense" - I don't get a feeling of urgency, imminent action, or "I've got birds" from dogs in that posture.

I find points like this much more intense, a little more urgent, and scream "I've got birds" (covey of huns in this picture)...but not as pretty or picturesque:
Image

No right or wrong - it's just whatever you prefer and how you choose to interpret and value it. :wink: :D

Here ya' go - one intense, the other picturesque - huns again:
Image

:D

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Sharon » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:26 am

Those pics say it all.

I'll take #3

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:02 am

Doug I agree your dogs are stylish & intense but I see nothing that says they have birds anymore then the pics I posted.Buddy the bottom dog does the lip curl & his tail flairs up most of the time.

Maggie was on a single running quail when she pointed & blew up & got taller the longer she stood any way that's how it was portrayed to me.

Like you said a matter of taste maybe & nothing wrong with either! :) :wink:

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:28 pm

I personally prefer a dog that crouches and looks like it's going to pounce on the bird. Something like this:

Image


The one I have now usually has one of the ugliest points I've seen but find the birds, she can.


Image


I REST MY CASE! :D
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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:33 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I personally prefer a dog that crouches and looks like it's going to pounce on the bird. Something like this:

Image


The one I have now usually has one of the ugliest points I've seen but find the birds, she can.
I agree, no time to standup and look pretty.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DonF » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:45 pm

Love it when a thread turns to photo's!

This is Squirt. He's not a stylist but he's is always intense. Notice the perked ear's, look at the eye's. He's tuned in and ready to split. If you had been there you'd have seen him quivering.

[Image[/URL]

Bodie is my stylist. He does not have Squirt's intensity but is full of style, I think. What you see from him is just the way he hit the bird.

Image

Bodie hit's low at time's, it's how he hit's the bird. But notice the lack of intensity? His ear's don't pert, never have and his eye's have never looked like they were going to jump out of his socket's, they are soft, but, I think he's got a ton of style and he draw's attention on point! He's is down here, I don't care as he's full of style!

Image

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DonF » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:52 pm

Doug's first dog is ripping! The other two shot's have a lot of style but are far enough off I don't know that they do or don't have intensity. Some trial'ers around here take that intensity out on purpose. They prefer style. In their eye's, a dog wound tight on a bird is most likely gonna go with the bird and certainly with the shot. Just not so! I love intensity, you can take it out but you can't put it in.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:02 pm

Ace my foundation Sire & Sire of Maggie,Gr Sire of Buddy.
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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DGFavor » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:50 pm

Nice stuff!! Lotsa ways to get the job done!!
Love it when a thread turns to photo's!
Geeez, don't get me started. Some chukar points:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Throw in one of Bugs on a sharpie find - he was a goodun! Very statuesque if I may say so!! :wink: :
Image

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Neil » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:14 pm

I would love to hunt with any of these dogs, all are beautiful in their own way.

As others have said, they have to find them to point them.

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by Gertie » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:52 pm

Doug, That first picture in your second post is priceless! Awesome photos from all of you. Will serve well to illustrate my point (no pun intended :wink: ).

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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:07 pm

RIGHT HERE BOSS!

Image


IN THE CORN


Image

"bleep" SNOW!


Image
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Re: Losing style on flush

Post by DonF » Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:38 pm

Nice photo's again Doug. You coming over to Buckhorn Sept 23, Ore Shooting Dog assoc.?

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