AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

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AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shets114 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:47 pm

Need to contact AKC and let them know how you feel about their Vice President speaking out about the use of E-Collars.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/378291358000 ... show-clips

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:28 pm


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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by fuzznut » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:05 pm

Here is the person to contact concerning the interview- it came from Communications Christopher Walker is the VP-cxw2@akc.org

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by gundogguy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:53 am

Any one that thinks the AKC is your friend, better wake -up and smell their liberal-progressive incremental Saul Lawensky (sp) thinking, and the direction that group is wants to take dog owners.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:13 am

This is an issue of education, not political affiliation. There are A LOT of people under the impression that e-collars are just used to shock a misbehaving dog to kingdom come. We need to educate people.

And we can respond to this study by referring to a small sample size as the cause for a statistically significant difference. If the sample was larger... Say 1000 dogs, it would be more informative. There were only 63 dogs in this study.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shets114 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:51 am

Were the dogs in the study only being trained obedience? I would bet so.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:10 am

shets114 wrote:Were the dogs in the study only being trained obedience? I would bet so.
I have been unable to find the study, but from the news report it is seriously flawed, not only as Springer said a small study group, there was no true control group. E collars were used on 1 group and treats on 2 while they said they trained them for 4 or 5 days. My guess is they didn't bother to train them to do much of anything. So yeah, zap some, pet and give treats to others and the ones being zapped will be stressed.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:19 am

This so called "study" is a real joke.

First of all the dogs were not randomly selected. second the parameters for determining success were totally subjective and since they were dependent on the original owner's comparison...completely unscientific.

Lastly, anmd perhaps most importantly, this "study" was commissioned and overseen by a branch of the British government that has a vested interest in an outcome that favors any outcome that supports the established official position of banning use of electronic training devices.

I call on the AKC to remove the spokesperson who made these comments and issue a formal redaction of her position.

I urge the leadership of every breed club which comprise the hound and sporting groups to petition the AKC for these same things. Summary termination of this spokesperson and a fomal disavowal of any position other than support for proper use of modern electronic training devices is what is called for.


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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by rinker » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:27 am

I tried to send an email using the link in Fuzznut's comment above, and it didn't work. Can someone give me a little help?

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by fuzznut » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:43 am

Chris Walkers email is what I attached in the above. cxw2@akc.org
Not sure why it won't work for you.... he and I have been having a nice discussion about this event.

There is also a Facebook page American Kennel Club where many are leaving messages. It is important for all of us to let Mr Walker know how we feel about this. They have to stop sending out people who don't know the issues or how to discuss them.

The performance department was unaware of this interview until after the interview took place..... how stupid!

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Fun dog » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:22 am

Let's do a survey. How many vets have to deal with dogs that have been traumatized by the e-collar vs those that have been traumatized by too many treats and now have major health issues.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Sharon » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:56 am

Excellent point.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:20 pm

Fun dog wrote:Let's do a survey. How many vets have to deal with dogs that have been traumatized by the e-collar vs those that have been traumatized by too many treats and now have major health issues.
Or hit by a car, in a fight, snake bit, lost, etc. An untrained dog off leash is subject to many catastrophes, and sporting dogs and most working dogs must perform off leash.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:29 pm

How about a flash mob with our dogs going nuts to get their collars on and buckled in the lobby of AKC's building :lol:

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by mnaj_springer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:01 pm

Honestly, this study was poorly set up. Of course dogs are stressed when first conditioned to e-collars! It's something new, but a longitudal study of the dogs' happiness/stress would be great, as Shags suggests!

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:21 pm

I would be more understanding had she only qualified it by saying for house dogs that will never be outside, off lead the e-collar might not be the best choice for the inexperienced.

She and everyone involved in the decision need to be fired or AKC is just going to get more anti-hunting.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by chrokeva » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:52 pm

I have not held the AKC in high regard since watching how they handled there "take over" of the border collie so this whole thing comes as no surprise. They do things to damage breeds or in this case the sport and then claim ignorance. I am not buying that it was a mistake. I think they wanted to take a stance against the e-collar which is what they did and now they don't want to be held accountable so they are going to deny they knew what was happening.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:10 pm

It is the parent club of any breed that petitions for registry. It is the parent club that decides upon a breed standard. It is the parent club that institutes breed specialties and performance events. AKC is a registry and record keeper, and governing body of member breed clubs, nothing more.
If you have a beef about Border Collies ( and if you do, I do not blame you) you need to address the parent club, not AKC. They are the ones who are inflicting damage on your breed.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by chrokeva » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:21 pm

Not as simple as you think. The reality is the USBCC was the parent club and they did not petition AKC for registry but rather opposed it! You can read more here if interested in AKCs underhanded tactics.

http://www.bordercollie.org/culture/culture.html

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:37 pm

The BCSA is the parent club of borders as far as AKC is concerned. So e fanciers had to have split off and formed BCSA, possibly from the original organization. This isn't unusual, same thing has happened with other breeds, JRTs being one. But it takes a group of people to petition for registration privileges. AKC can not force any group of breed fanciers to join it.

My friend is heavy into working border collies, and was distressed because it was said that the bench people wanted to eliminate eye for the show ring. My first breed was Irish setters, and believe me, we know the damage that can happen to a breed. But it's still the responsibility of the parent club of record, not AKC. AKC doesn't care which breeds look like what or how they perform. They leave all that to the breed clubs.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:42 pm

I am a supporter of AKC, they do many things right, chiefly to me is the Dual Dog.

But over the last ten years or so more of the employees are anti-hunting, and their policies are reflecting this bias.

If we do not strenuously object to this latest indignity they will continue down the road. We are a small part AKC, but for now, still an important one. Please voice your concerns.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:44 pm

shags wrote:The BCSA is the parent club of borders as far as AKC is concerned. So e fanciers had to have split off and formed BCSA, possibly from the original organization. This isn't unusual, same thing has happened with other breeds, JRTs being one. But it takes a group of people to petition for registration privileges. AKC can not force any group of breed fanciers to join it.

My friend is heavy into working border collies, and was distressed because it was said that the bench people wanted to eliminate eye for the show ring. My first breed was Irish setters, and believe me, we know the damage that can happen to a breed. But it's still the responsibility of the parent club of record, not AKC. AKC doesn't care which breeds look like what or how they perform. They leave all that to the breed clubs.
Well said, and very true. I have Brittanys and Boykin Spaniels, and I have seen the good the breed club can do, and the bad.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by chrokeva » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:48 pm

You are right....AKC does not care they just want to register more dogs and nothing wrong with a business acting like a business.
I still feel that they made a statement about e collars because that is what they wanted to do as it is the politically correct stance and AKC wants to be politically correct. I do not believe them any better than any other business and I imagine it makes good business sense to oppose the e collar in today's environment. Perhaps AKC's stance on opposing the e-collar will make no difference....we will have to see on that.
Personally I have never trained with a e-collar but really do not like the idea of the option being taken away.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by JKP » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:16 pm

It is the parent club of any breed that petitions for registry. It is the parent club that decides upon a breed standard.
I believe that the AKC can approve or reject the standard that a breed club may offer. The AKC frowns on standards that are too strict or contains too many disqualifications. Breeding restrictions are not allowed.
AKC doesn't care which breeds look like what or how they perform. They leave all that to the breed clubs.
That could be true. But the AKC organizes the performance events and only those designations/titles can be included on a pedigree. As an example, the serious Vdoggers had to go to NAVHDA to find training and testing.
Many of the performance events are meaningless....witness the brace Beagle events or the terrier ground trials...basically worthless feel good entertainment.

I don't think that many serious performance dog enthusiasts have realized thhat they are not well served by the AKC. Speaking for myself, I would probably not buy a hunting dog from a breeder that only participated in AKC events.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:27 pm

JKP wrote:
It is the parent club of any breed that petitions for registry. It is the parent club that decides upon a breed standard.
I believe that the AKC can approve or reject the standard that a breed club may offer. The AKC frowns on standards that are too strict or contains too many disqualifications. Breeding restrictions are not allowed.
AKC doesn't care which breeds look like what or how they perform. They leave all that to the breed clubs.
That could be true. But the AKC organizes the performance events and only those designations/titles can be included on a pedigree. As an example, the serious Vdoggers had to go to NAVHDA to find training and testing.
Many of the performance events are meaningless....witness the brace Beagle events or the terrier ground trials...basically worthless feel good entertainment.

I don't think that many serious performance dog enthusiasts have realized thhat they are not well served by the AKC. Speaking for myself, I would probably not buy a hunting dog from a breeder that only participated in AKC events.
What a shame that a registry that was put together by the parent clubs of the dog breeds has to take so much gaff from people who don't even understand what AKC really is.

Ezzy

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by JKP » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:48 pm

What a shame that a registry that was put together by the parent clubs of the dog breeds has to take so much gaff from people who don't even understand what AKC really is.
Why don't you tell us what it is, Ezzy? IMO...by limiting what breed clubs may do and by defining the events that are offered, they create the game....and the games influence breeds.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:58 pm

JKP wrote:
It is the parent club of any breed that petitions for registry. It is the parent club that decides upon a breed standard.
I believe that the AKC can approve or reject the standard that a breed club may offer. The AKC frowns on standards that are too strict or contains too many disqualifications. Breeding restrictions are not allowed.
AKC doesn't care which breeds look like what or how they perform. They leave all that to the breed clubs.
That could be true. But the AKC organizes the performance events and only those designations/titles can be included on a pedigree. As an example, the serious Vdoggers had to go to NAVHDA to find training and testing.
Many of the performance events are meaningless....witness the brace Beagle events or the terrier ground trials...basically worthless feel good entertainment.

I don't think that many serious performance dog enthusiasts have realized thhat they are not well served by the AKC. Speaking for myself, I would probably not buy a hunting dog from a breeder that only participated in AKC events.

It's on the parent clubs. All of it. If they choose to, they can opt for their own testing program, award certificates and titles, and AKC will allow them on peds. For example, years ago the Irish Setter Club of America instituted a Versatility program wherein dogs were able to attain titles of VC or VCX by passing judgement from a bench judge, completing legs of an obedience title, and passing a field test ( or placing in a trial). The VC or VCX was an approved suffix to the dog's name. If the versatiles are offended by having to go to NAVHDA then maybe they should consider organizing a testing program under the auspices of their parent clubs.

AKC has all the encumbrances of big business, but they are active in protecting and promoting canine health issues and activities. When was the last time NAVHDA or FDSB contributed money to canine health research? Where are they when local or state governments propose draconian regulations on breeders? Have they ever helped the field trial community when we were faced with loss of grounds?

I wouldn't ask anyone to like AKC because they make me plenty mad sometimes too. But we'd do well to appreciate some of the things they do or contribute to that benefit us and our dogs.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:02 pm

:!: Thumbs up shags :!: :wink:

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:01 pm

Shags, great post and oh so true.

Ezzy

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by chrokeva » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:31 pm

It is clear AKC has a lot of support from the gundog community and that is a very good thing.
So on the original subject of AKCs stance against e-collars how do people feel about that? Like I said I have never used one so I won't be too concerned to see them outlawed but I am wondering if that is ok to the gundog community as a whole? If e-collars are outlawed sometime in the near future how will it change how you train? I am not sure how true it is but I have been told that within the gundog trialing scene almost all of the dogs are collar conditioned...is this true?

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Neil » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:31 pm

I was training dogs before variable intensity e-collars were widely available, and I will be able to continue, but it was much harder on the dogs.

That is why I think we all need to contact AKC.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by JKP » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:16 am

Maybe contacting the individual in charge of sporting dog events might help. Assuming this person is a hunter, a face to face discussion about modern methods, equipment and situations where treats and a clicker don't work might be in order.

I suspect a search of this VP's other utterances might also reveal her stance to hunting and hunting dogs.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:40 am

chrokeva wrote:It is clear AKC has a lot of support from the gundog community and that is a very good thing.
So on the original subject of AKCs stance against e-collars how do people feel about that? Like I said I have never used one so I won't be too concerned to see them outlawed but I am wondering if that is ok to the gundog community as a whole? If e-collars are outlawed sometime in the near future how will it change how you train? I am not sure how true it is but I have been told that within the gundog trialing scene almost all of the dogs are collar conditioned...is this true?
I don't trial, so I cannot tell you how that works. But as a hunter who LOVES my 4 legged friends, the e-collar is invaluable to safety. If my dogs know that I will hold them accountable when I give a command they follow through almost every time.... That's important as bird flushes over a road that a truck is driving down. At that point obedience is about safety for the dog.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Vision » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:05 am

gundogguy wrote:Any one that thinks the AKC is your friend, better wake -up and smell their liberal-progressive incremental Saul Lawensky (sp) thinking, and the direction that group is wants to take dog owners.

This is the most spot on statement of this whole thread, especially the word incremental. This study will be used to whip people into rage about e-collars and then to action. Watch for a ballot initiative in California in the coming years for the ban of e-collars. They have a study to prove their point and now the boots on the ground will get to work to gather the signatures to get on the ballot.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:57 am

What a horrible and misguided representation of the ecollar. The other gentleman was not even given equal time to respond. Shame on the news network and the AKC, which may now stand for AWFUL KENNEL CLUB. Email sent.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by chrokeva » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:05 am

It is unclear where this proposed ban on e-collars is going and how much AKC will influence the general public but I imagine some of this may become clear over the next several months. If this is something that is important to the dog training community I would think taking a proactive stance would be wise at this point. In order to do this I think the negatives of e-collars will need to be addressed (i.e. the inexperienced person using the collar incorrectly). Would something equivalent to a hunter safety course work for e-collar education? I may be totally off base here but just throwing out some ideas.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:18 am

Thanks, but I think I'll pass on being required to attend a seminar before using a simple training device. There are plenty of alternatives for any owner who wishes to learn how to use an ecollar.

Remember, that twit from AKC was talking mainly about bark collars and invisible fencing type collars. Even a rather stupid pet parent can figure those out. Pity the dog if they can't, but the consequences are their responsibility.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by chrokeva » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:20 am

shags wrote:Thanks, but I think I'll pass on being required to attend a seminar before using a simple training device. There are plenty of alternatives for any owner who wishes to learn how to use an ecollar.

Remember, that twit from AKC was talking mainly about bark collars and invisible fencing type collars. Even a rather stupid pet parent can figure those out. Pity the dog if they can't, but the consequences are their responsibility.
I absolutely agree but how do you fight this proposed ban? That really is the question here.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:37 am

No one said ecollars are banned or going be banned. The spox simply stated that there are better ways in her ( and presumably AKC's) view.

Instead of tilting at windmills, might be prudent to contact performance events, then give them a chance to make a statement before we run out and buy a lifetime supply of replacement parts for our units.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:44 am

So, apparently the AKC would rather have us return to bull whips, lead quirts, electric hotlines, cattle prods, shotguns and ratshot rather than the ecollar. If that misguided organization possible thinks that banning ecollars will stop the complex and extensive training of field trial animals, they are oh, so badly mistaken. Perhaps what they should consider is a ban on all sporting dog trials and tests. That'll teach us.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:54 am

Don't be silly. :lol: :lol: She clearly said a pocket full of treats and lots of praise as reward for good behavior is all it takes to have a wonderfully obedient dog. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now I only need to figure out a timing issue...like getting to my dog 1/4 mi away to give him a cookie in exchange for a nice back :roll:

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AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Luminary Setters » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:53 am

Said Gonehunt'n, "Perhaps what they should consider is a ban on all sporting dog trials and tests."

No, only the blood sports for now.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by gundogguy » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:07 pm

mnaj_springer wrote:This is an issue of education, not political affiliation. There are A LOT of people under the impression that e-collars are just used to shock a misbehaving dog to kingdom come. We need to educate people.

And we can respond to this study by referring to a small sample size as the cause for a statistically significant difference. If the sample was larger... Say 1000 dogs, it would be more informative. There were only 63 dogs in this study.
Oh! Just follow the money and see how little education there is and how they will demonize the equipment the people that use e-collars. Every thing in life is politics period.
One side will always posture for their benefit and against the benefit of others. Remember this, they will not let a crisis go wasted if it will enable their position.
and they will eventually create a crisis over this issue. This is just the opening salvo. Shock and awe lay somewhere in the future

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by NLsetter » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:42 pm

shags wrote:Don't be silly. :lol: :lol: She clearly said a pocket full of treats and lots of praise as reward for good behavior is all it takes to have a wonderfully obedient dog. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now I only need to figure out a timing issue...like getting to my dog 1/4 mi away to give him a cookie in exchange for a nice back :roll:

LOL yep and trash breaking my Irish from chasing moose would have been much quicker had I thought about offering him a cookie. In the correct hands, introduced and used effectively a e-collar is the most reliable way to ensure your dogs safety in the field.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by JuliaH » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:44 pm

shags wrote:Don't be silly. :lol: :lol: She clearly said a pocket full of treats and lots of praise as reward for good behavior is all it takes to have a wonderfully obedient dog. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now I only need to figure out a timing issue...like getting to my dog 1/4 mi away to give him a cookie in exchange for a nice back :roll:

Where's the LIKE button when I need it! Well said!!

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by JuliaH » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:17 am

On Saturday morning, AKC agreed to appear on Fox & Friends to discuss our thoughts on the use of e-collars for pet training.The AKC has not called for a ban on e-collars and supports choice in training methods, as well as trusting the experts. We continue to support the training techniques used by our experienced, responsible, and dedicated performance and companion competitors, and we apologize for not making that distinction clear during Saturday’s segment. For more on our position regarding e-collars please visit http://www.akc.org/rules/policymanual.cfm?page=5 which discusses our position adopted by the Board of Directors in 2001.

This is on the AKC website and on the AKC page on Facebook as of this morning.

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:47 am

That was sent to my email this morning.... The AKC is run by "average" dog owners not what I would call "performance" dogs so their stand was directed at other average owners who don't understand our dogs. They are simply taking the Petco approach to dog training for the average (and largest population) of dog owners. They cant "BAN" ecollars.

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AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Luminary Setters » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:08 am

Although the AKC can't ban e-collars, they are the most recognized canine organization in the US, and considered the authority on dogs by the masses, even those that don't own them.

They have a massive lobbying presence on both the state and local level. There is no doubt in my mind that my representatives listen to them more attentively than they do me. Although we are a republic which protects the rights of the few, through repetition in the media and school systems most people believe us to be a democracy, which is mob rule. E-collar users are a minority, and most of our representatives won't think twice about making them illegal if the masses rally for that cause.

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:27 am

Sounds a little paranoid to me.... They wont "lobby" for banning e-collars.

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Re: AKC's Vice Presidents thoughts on E-Collar use

Post by shags » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:53 am

I got this response from Chris Walker last night

"I can assure you we are not working with the AR groups on any matter concerning ecollars and should a ban be proposed, we will fight it on behalf of our constituents."

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