I thought it was about the dogs

[Scott Linden]

Feel free to chime in:

http://scottlindenoutdoors.com/2014/10/ ... ifference/

[buckshot1]

I'll bite.

If it was only about making the dogs happy, I'd throw some chickens in the backyard and let the dogs have at them. Would be much cheaper. Dogs don't care how sporting we make it. They just want birds.

I prefer wild birds for the same reason advanced skiers ski blacks and expert golfers play from the back tees. I enjoy the challenge. I'm more likely to see something spectacular hunting wild birds. Sorry, but I've watched my dogs track the bird planter's ATV scent straight to the planted birds way too many times to believe preserve birds provide them with the same challenge. I'm not bashing anyone who hunts preserves. I hunt them myself every so often. They have their place. But no way is it the same.

At the end of the day, pretty much everyone with a trained dog has experienced both wild birds and preserve birds and already knows which he or she prefers. You're probably not going to change anyone's mind who's already tried both. To each his own.

[DonF]

Wild birds, preserve birds, pigeon's doesn't matter to me. Anyone and I get to watch my dog's. The great thing about wild birds is where you find them, love some of that country. I recall lot's of time's just sitting down and taking it in. My dog's were the excuse for climbing those hills. But I seldom go anywhere without my dogs! My dogs are my reason for living!

[brianb]

It's mostly about the dogs but a small percentage about me.

[quote="buckshot1"

I prefer wild birds for the same reason advanced skiers ski blacks and expert golfers play from the back tees. I enjoy the challenge. I'm more likely to see something spectacular hunting wild birds.[/quote]

The skiing analogy is a good one. My family will ski the local small midwestern bump of a hill but we really wish we were taking in the long runs and views of the Rockies. The local hill is fine and helps us practice our technique but it lacks the challenge and beauty of being out west.

The local pheasant preserve is fine too and the dogs love it but it's just not the same as being out in the National Forest chasing grouse or out in the great expanses of the western prairie.

In Wisconsin, the DNR releases 77,000 pheasants every year on public land. To me, this is a little more of a challenge and the scenery more beautiful than a pheasant farm. Late in the season the surviving pheasants are the smarter more challenging ones. Everyone in the state has easy access to these areas and isn't paying $20 per bird.

Unfortunately, a great majority of the population in the US doesn't live near huntable populations of wild birds or have access to land. The total cost of a week out west can get pretty steep as well.

[UglyD]

There is a huge difference in one hunt clubs/preserve birds VS anothers. some ARE " Well raised pen birds others are not " I hunt a hunt club twice a year because a friend has clients he wants to take and I have the dogs he needs- other wise I would not do it. And like others I am not condemning those that do- I just live where the wild bird hunting is tough but it's still viable. I can watch my dogs work a bird for a 1/4 mile or more sometimes finally getting him up and the end of a long tule patch- that is what it is about to me. Hiking 6 miles across CRP fields and missing the one shot I get and the end of the day- still a great time for me. I don't want to know I am going to get a bird every day- I see it in the dogs- they hunt totally different and no one can every get me to believe differently. Not that the dogs don't hunt but when those two are on a bird and that bird is doing everything in the book to elude them you can see it in the dogs and you just don't get that out of a bird that hasn't be around long enough to learn the ropes. The whole idea that this is what hunting is coming to hurts me to the core- I'll still get to hunt my days out on truly wild birds- my son and his sons will not.

[ACooper]

Wild Birds > early release birds > throw down birds.

[Elkhunter]

I have yet to see a planted birds act like wild birds.

[Mountaineer]

Pen-raised birds are not all created equal in their response to being released...that can be a problem with some training or shooting scenarios.
Much the same as not all Preserves are created equal...in the resulting experience of the shooter or in benefits to the dog.
Most know that...I expect so do you.
Why this bread was cast upon the waters as a Wiggle-Wart would be for you to honestly consider.

If one depends upon pen-raised birds for their living or in filming a tv show then I reckon that one must strive to justify what is needed or ignores the bad actors in scripted shooting situations.
Both situations are understandable....just a part of the world that is out there....not bad...just not for all.
Past that, if one does not understand the difference available in a wild bird impossible to pen-raise on an economic level, i.e. the ruffed grouse, then one would not understand that for many it is not all about the dog and should not be....other than for a canine platitude on a dog message board or if the individual has no base of appreciation for what wild delivers.

We all love our dogs and reckon time with them invaluable but that does not mean that everyone enjoys FTing or Preserves or the opposite of a lonely stretch of two-track.
There should be more to Life than any one element or bad luck can render life unimportant and having more than dogs define a Life gives greater value to the dog in allowing a comparison and freshness and wonder continually anew.
It also does not mean that a silly and trite and easy phrase like "all about the dog" is chirped by everyone...many of us find our value apart from glorifying any single element of the dog-gun-bird-whatever equation.
Perhaps, because we simply do not have the need......with that have no connection to valuing our pups.

My wonder is...is this thread all about ginning up comments on a blog or is a new book forthcoming?

[polmaise]

Feel free to chime in:

http://scottlindenoutdoors.com/2014/10/ ... ifference/

Scott. You know I love your posts ...Thinking man.

If your dog doesn't know any difference then there will be no difference.
If we are talking about 'wild pheasant' for example : then ''we'' would agree that this game will run before it flies !! and often outrun and outsmart the best

The reared/pen or placed bird has a disadvantage and will opt for ''clap'' of wings and stay!!...Until the moment of ' feck me ' I'll fly!...
Show me a dog that has been trained on wild birds and The dog that that has been trained on Pen/planted birds ?...The difference will be in the dog .

[RayGubernat]

I firmly believe the dog does not care one iota where the bird came from. As long as it gets to wrap its gums around it...the dog will be fine with it.

Now there is no question in my mind that it takes, in many cases, a very different skill set to successfully hunt wild pheasant over much of its range and most of the weather and terrain conditions, when compared to penraised pheasants on a preserve.

But if the dog never hunts wild pheasant, it will never know the difference. It may never develop the skills required to master the wild bird and thus never use its breeding and genetic abilities to their fullest...but again...it will not know the difference. The dogs that can and do learn to master these wild birds have shown their talent level and intelligence in ways that a preserve dog cannot.

Conversely, the consummate preserve dog is a special animal as well. Make no mistake about that. It takes a very special, mentally tough and resilient dog to point with high style and absolutely no let down... the twenty, thirty or forty penraised birds it will find four hours, and retrieve each of them tenderly to hand. Then go out the very next day and do it all over again.

I make the same sort of case for the horseback all age dog. There are so few places where a true all age dog can actually show what it can do that it ALMOST makes no sense to breed for those extreme ablilities. But, thankfully, there ARE folks who breed for those all age characteristics. I say thankfully, because a generation or two removed, the all age dog passes on to the gun dog the fire, desire and physical ability to hunt for extended periods along with the grit and determination to keep on when it gets tough.

RayG

[Fun dog]

I just know that if I had to depend on wild birds for training my dog would not get trained. I would love to have more wild bird exposure, but they're hard to come by despite the miles we've put into looking. As for the dogs, the could care less what type of bird it is as long as it's a bird.

[DonF]

I just know that if I had to depend on wild birds for training my dog would not get trained. I would love to have more wild bird exposure, but they're hard to come by despite the miles we've put into looking. As for the dogs, the could care less what type of bird it is as long as it's a bird.

Go up on the tundra between top of the Brooks and Prudoe Bay. Used to see flocks of ptarmigan you wouldn't believe. They were pretty much like barnyard chicken's, every where!

[Fun dog]

Haven't done prudoe bay. That would be a trek. Right now we're waiting for the snow to push them down the mountain, but the snow is slow in coming. Even then it's a two hour hike up the mountain to get to them. Keeps us all in shape if nothing else.

[Fran Seagren]

Because the original OP invited us to feel free to chime in, I may as well add my opinion.

We hunt wild birds, but I train our dogs (two labs, two red setters, one brittany) on pen raised birds - pigeons, chukar, quail, pheasants, ducks. I'm know our dogs have just as much fun with the pen raised birds, but my husband and I prefer hunting wild ones. The dogs love it all.

Although we've hunted pheasants out of state a few times over the years, we typically hunt eastern Washington - a lot. Washington isn't even listed when the experts put out the annual state pheasant forecast! But, for over 25 years now, hunting wild pheasants (and quail) in eastern Washington is at the top of my fun list.

In my experience, in Washington, the wild pheasants are simply wilier than the pen raised ones. Even early season roosters know how to maneuver around dogs and people and will try to walk or run away sooner than fly. So, it's more challenging for the dogs and us, too, because there just aren't that many pheasants to start with. But, the dogs learn how to hunt wild roosters and that makes it a lot more fun.

Even though our dogs love it when they get to retrieve a bird, they actually love "the hunt" more than anything. If it was just getting the bird in their mouth, my dogs would have given up hunting a long time ago! Especially the dogs that hunt with me - the lousy shot.

Today I had four of our dogs at Joint Base Lewis McChord training. (My husband was grouse hunting with our older setter, Ruby.) The areas open to dog training at JBLM are the same places they use for the released pheasant hunts. I was told they release the birds on the weekends. So, of course, birds are left in the fields during the week.

Both my setter, Robert, and our brittany, Seven, pointed pheasants today. My two labs had a great time training, too. My husband and Ruby came back with a grouse. It was a beautiful day in the northwest and Mt Rainier was stunning. All the dogs are sacked out, on and around our bed! Yup - I think it IS all about the dogs.

[Tooling]

It is tough to train a bird dog using strictly pen raised birds. Consistently good flyers would be helpful but even that can be tough to do unless you can raise them yourself which is a whole other adventure of itself. You need land, time, $$, lots of know how, etc etc.

My dog just loves hunting and birds period. Even on days we put in a lot of effort looking for wild birds only to find not a one he works just as hard and is ready to do it again the next day with even more enthusiasm. In hunting mode he will cautiously creep out the front door for a day or so in a semi-point moving very slowly & methodically around corners etc looking for doves or a pigeon (just in case our pigeons might be out which is not too often - but he's still ready for 'em) And yes, I believe I put my dog on too many liberated birds b/c he's using his vision a bit much at certain times. As much as I try to be stealth w/liberated birds he really knows the game quite well. It's tough on the east coast.

He seems to crowd birds that will let him however one time I put out some fantastic Chukars that were as wiley & as strong as could be - first time out w/them he just seemed to know & hunted them very differently going on point much further away and also standing much tighter with zero guidance from me (mouth shut). Following this I occasionally get birds from this supplier and my dogs reaction is always the same...they are very good birds.

I learned a lot that day.

Since then I have hunted him on "wild" birds...and I use the term wild loosely (PA Pheasants). I hunted him a lot and the first bird we encountered he chased. As our time progressed he only got better and better, again w/out a word from me. By the time the season ended he was really starting to get it done and we had a very successful season chasing leftovers late in the year. Having the season end was just a shade too soon for his education but I have full confidence (w/fingers crossed) that he will pick it back up fast and that he will end this season just that much closer to being a legit bird dog. Watching a bird dog develop in his element is an extraordinary thing and the bond which forms is difficult to put into words. It's amazing how little a dog has to be taught if given the opportunity to teach him or her self.

The desire to see my dog develop is the driver that keeps me going and it compels me to base so much more of my life in time and resources to give him the opportunity to do so. A cackling Rooster running out of options and taking flight is a rush to be sure but having your pooch there in unison, well...just wow.

I would enjoy these hunts with or w/out pup but I would not be putting my boots on the ground for even a fraction of the time that I do w/out my dog.

Basically, it is about the dogs and I don't think I am in the minority.

[greg jacobs]

I've always felt it was an obligation to the dog to get it out in the sage or wherever to let them run and find birds. If you are going to own a bird dog you owe it that. To do what it was bred to do. Trying to put a percentage on who its for is tough. When my dog is flowing through the sage smooth as silk. When there is nobody in sight. When all is quiet and still. The only thing I'm hearing is my own deep breath climbing that hill. My dog couldn't be loving it more than me.

Greg

[Fran Seagren]

I've always felt it was an obligation to the dog to get it out in the sage or wherever to let them run and find birds. If you are going to own a bird dog you owe it that. To do what it was bred to do. Trying to put a percentage on who its for is tough. When my dog is flowing through the sage smooth as silk. When there is nobody in sight. When all is quiet and still. The only thing I'm hearing is my own deep breath climbing that hill. My dog couldn't be loving it more than me.

Greg

Amen!

[Pepper]

Because the original OP invited us to feel free to chime in, I may as well add my opinion.

We hunt wild birds, but I train our dogs (two labs, two red setters, one brittany) on pen raised birds - pigeons, chukar, quail, pheasants, ducks. I'm know our dogs have just as much fun with the pen raised birds, but my husband and I prefer hunting wild ones. The dogs love it all.

Although we've hunted pheasants out of state a few times over the years, we typically hunt eastern Washington - a lot. Washington isn't even listed when the experts put out the annual state pheasant forecast! But, for over 25 years now, hunting wild pheasants (and quail) in eastern Washington is at the top of my fun list.

In my experience, in Washington, the wild pheasants are simply wilier than the pen raised ones. Even early season roosters know how to maneuver around dogs and people and will try to walk or run away sooner than fly. So, it's more challenging for the dogs and us, too, because there just aren't that many pheasants to start with. But, the dogs learn how to hunt wild roosters and that makes it a lot more fun.

Even though our dogs love it when they get to retrieve a bird, they actually love "the hunt" more than anything. If it was just getting the bird in their mouth, my dogs would have given up hunting a long time ago! Especially the dogs that hunt with me - the lousy shot.

Today I had four of our dogs at Joint Base Lewis McChord training. (My husband was grouse hunting with our older setter, Ruby.) The areas open to dog training at JBLM are the same places they use for the released pheasant hunts. I was told they release the birds on the weekends. So, of course, birds are left in the fields during the week.

Both my setter, Robert, and our brittany, Seven, pointed pheasants today. My two labs had a great time training, too. My husband and Ruby came back with a grouse. It was a beautiful day in the northwest and Mt Rainier was stunning. All the dogs are sacked out, on and around our bed! Yup - I think it IS all about the dogs.

Nice pictures...I agree with you...It's all about the dogs, especially, a puppy learning the ropes.
BJ

[jack the dog]

It is ALL about the dogs.
How many of us on here would be bird hunters if we didn't have our dogs?
I'm guessing there would not be very many if we had no dogs.
Decades ago we could have all been hunters of wild birds, but we can not choose when we were born. So now, we, hunt what we hunt because that is what there is to hunt.
If given the choice I would only hunt wild birds. My dogs work hard for their passion of finding and retrieving birds and they need that reward from time to time.
Just as we need that reward of the perfect point, flush, shot, and retrieve to keep our batteries charged, so do our dogs. Here in the Southern Appalachians, I hunt wild grouse all I can, but that can be frustrating for a dog that loves birds as with the population being low on grouse around here we seldom get our daily limit, and wild quail are all but extinct (I couldn't bring myself to shoot at a wild covey if I found one).
I am a firm believer that in order for a good bird dog to stay a good bird dog they need to score once in a while at least. So depending on where you live in this country or in this world , it is up to you, your dog's best friend, to provide him with the opportunities you have available to you.
Since the day we stopped bird hunting for survival, it has been ALL about the dogs.

[Scott Linden]

If one depends upon pen-raised birds for their living or in filming a tv show then I reckon that one must strive to justify what is needed or ignores the bad actors in scripted shooting situations.

My wonder is...is this thread all about ginning up comments on a blog or is a new book forthcoming?

Mountaineer, you have such a mind! I hope you're not that suspicious of every interaction you have with fellow hunters or your spouse, if you have one.

We don't "script" any situation, and unlike some shows we've followed into the same fields a week later, don't hire kids to hold the birds in a bush until we set up the cameras. Some of the birds on some shows are released because you wouldn't watch a bird hunting show without birds, but about half are wild birds in wild places (we like that stuff too).

While I don't feel the need to justify my posts to you or anybody else, I'll W R I T E S L O W L Y and use little words so you understand:

1. Couldn't care less whether you or anyone else comments. I write what I want, when I want. So do you.

2. Some of it ends up in a blog. Some in a book. You should try it some time. Good luck.

3. I'll keep you posted if some of this does. And you can send me money.

[Mountaineer]

If one depends upon pen-raised birds for their living or in filming a tv show then I reckon that one must strive to justify what is needed or ignores the bad actors in scripted shooting situations.

My wonder is...is this thread all about ginning up comments on a blog or is a new book forthcoming?

Mountaineer, you have such a mind! I hope you're not that suspicious of every interaction you have with fellow hunters or your spouse, if you have one.

We don't "script" any situation, and unlike some shows we've followed into the same fields a week later, don't hire kids to hold the birds in a bush until we set up the cameras. Some of the birds on some shows are released because you wouldn't watch a bird hunting show without birds, but about half are wild birds in wild places (we like that stuff too).

While I don't feel the need to justify my posts to you or anybody else, I'll W R I T E S L O W L Y and use little words so you understand:

1. Couldn't care less whether you or anyone else comments. I write what I want, when I want. So do you.

2. Some of it ends up in a blog. Some in a book. You should try it some time. Good luck.

3. I'll keep you posted if some of this does. And you can send me money.

I have been married for many years.
Good on "scripting"...eh, on the planted birds and...there are many shows on-air.
Some more vocal than others...some have shooters doing superb jobs of backing a birddog.
Never asked you to justify anything.....how you feel is for you to consider.
I can handle large words so "plant" as many as you need.
Yes, we both write what we want.,,,,good luck with your future books....I suspect that they will be well received tho I will never know.
Nope...no lucre from this quarter...plow another furrow, laddybuck.

[Scott Linden]

I have been married for many years.
Good on "scripting"...eh, on the planted birds and...there are many shows on-air.
Some more vocal than others...some have shooters doing superb jobs of backing a birddog.
Never asked you to justify anything.....how you feel is for you to consider.
I can handle large words so "plant" as many as you need.
Yes, we both write what we want.,,,,good luck with your future books....I suspect that they will be well received tho I will never know.
Nope...no lucre from this quarter...plow another furrow, laddybuck.

Good to see that your Prozac prescription was renewed.