pup's leaving the litter

nevermind · Post by **nevermind** » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:59 pm

There's a post currently going on in which the OP was asking about basic training of his pup....anyway the post went somewhat sideway when OP mentioned he was picking up the pup at 6weeks. This perked my interest.
I'm getting a pup from a breeder that said he wanted to release his pups at 6wks. and I have 1st pick of this future litter. This breeder has had all his previous litters sold before they hit the ground with great fed back from buyers. What I want is feed back from breeders on the pro's and con's of releasing a pup @ 6wks. Please...just facts not what I feel or my uncles' uncle had this or that happen...sorry if I seem blunt, but I want to get some feed back as I've already made a nonrefundable deposit.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:37 pm

You'll get lots of opinions here and I doubt you'll get any that say picking up a puppy at six weeks is optimal.
Sorry to be blunt, but if you want 'facts' don't expect others to find and cite sources for you. Google is your friend.

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:03 pm

There's a veterinarian the writes for Gun Dog Magazine that wrote a good article on what goes on in the litter between eight and ten weeks several years ago. I think his last name is either Character or Best.

mowermandan · Post by **mowermandan** » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:26 pm

I br
elieve im the focus of the other post you were talking about it seemed a dilemma to me on age at picking up pup from breeder ie 6 weeks I also have a non refundable deposit after all the negative replies on a pup that young I contacted the breeder and thru my missund
and he has no problem with waiting till the pup is 8or10 weeks old seems some missed communication between the 2 of us he thought I wanted the pup as soon as possible and thru my brain was interpretated as he want them picked up at 6 wks well weve got that figured out pup will now be ready 2nd weekend in dec wich puts it a little over 8 wksall akc papers are done and she will have shots at6 and 8 weeks so I would bet your breeder especially after deposit would do the same

nevermind · Post by **nevermind** » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:34 pm

shags wrote:You'll get lots of opinions here and I doubt you'll get any that say picking up a puppy at six weeks is optimal.
Sorry to be blunt, but if you want 'facts' don't expect others to find and cite sources for you. Google is your friend.

I'm not looking for reasons it's optimal...want to find out why it's detrimental, also don't want others to cite sources for me. I want experiences from breeders that have info that's proved that releasing a pup this early is going make this a problem dog. Sorry I wasn't clear on this in my first post.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:35 am

A pup is usually weaned at 5 or 6 weeks depending on the mother and what she wants. While I have gotten pups as early as 6 weeks without any long lasting problems I think there would be less stress on the pups if they were given a bit more time to adjust before leaving their littermates. 8-weeks is one of those pivotal times in a pups life where bonding is strong. It's certainly not the end of the world to get a pup at 6 weeks, but it would be better at 8. Besides, the older the pup, the easier to house train.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:31 am

nevermind wrote:
shags wrote:You'll get lots of opinions here and I doubt you'll get any that say picking up a puppy at six weeks is optimal.
Sorry to be blunt, but if you want 'facts' don't expect others to find and cite sources for you. Google is your friend.

I'm not looking for reasons it's optimal...want to find out why it's detrimental, also don't want others to cite sources for me. I want experiences from breeders that have info that's proved that releasing a pup this early is going make this a problem dog. Sorry I wasn't clear on this in my first post.

Breeders that let puppies go at 6 weeks whether at their insistence or the owner's demand are a red flag.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:49 am

nevermind wrote:
shags wrote:You'll get lots of opinions here and I doubt you'll get any that say picking up a puppy at six weeks is optimal.
Sorry to be blunt, but if you want 'facts' don't expect others to find and cite sources for you. Google is your friend.

I'm not looking for reasons it's optimal...want to find out why it's detrimental, also don't want others to cite sources for me. I want experiences from breeders that have info that's proved that releasing a pup this early is going make this a problem dog. Sorry I wasn't clear on this in my first post.

You will not get information that proves taking a pup from the litter at 6 weeks will make it a problem dog. Because it does not exist. Some puppies will do fine. House breaking is much harder at that age because they are non-stop peeing machines. The changes in puppies, both physically and mentally from six to eight weeks are huge. I do not believe puppies get a lot from the mothers after about seven weeks. Our females might jump in with them and regurgitate a little food or lick the pups a bit, but they hop right out and go on their way. What they learn from the litter is most important. Leaving the pup with the litter until eight weeks just is the sensible thing to do.
If I was buying a pup from a kennel where there was not a lot of human interaction I would get it out of there at seven weeks. 49 days used to be written in stone.
one last thing when it comes to dogs you will find very little information that proves anything, you just have to work through it and figure out what works for you.................................Cj

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:51 am

nevermind wrote:
shags wrote:You'll get lots of opinions here and I doubt you'll get any that say picking up a puppy at six weeks is optimal.
Sorry to be blunt, but if you want 'facts' don't expect others to find and cite sources for you. Google is your friend.

I'm not looking for reasons it's optimal...want to find out why it's detrimental, also don't want others to cite sources for me. I want experiences from breeders that have info that's proved that releasing a pup this early is going make this a problem dog. Sorry I wasn't clear on this in my first post.

You are pretty demanding and more than a little rude. I will pass.

nevermind · Post by **nevermind** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:57 am

Good input CJ....Thanks

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:11 am

Leaving a pup with his littermates has nothing to do with weaning at all. It has very little to do with nutrition.

It's all about proper dog to dog socialization. The pup learns A LOT from 6 weeks to 10 weeks from his littermates, things like bite inhibition, how to read body language (of other dogs), and how to interact with other dogs. For you - He is more confident and easier to bond with and crate train at 10 weeks than at 6 weeks. Pups taken too soon are much more likely to interact poorly with other dogs. Pups taken too early can sometimes develop separation issues in their new homes as well - more frequently, I believe, than dogs who have stayed with the litter until 10 weeks. You can't get the things they learn in the litter any other way - an adult dog in your own home can't replace the littermates for that type of interaction. It's great if the litter stays with the mom during this time, but usually it's just the littermates together. This provides the pup a great start on his forever life!

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:11 pm

RoostersMom. +1. By far the biggest issue I have training dogs from outside my kennel is their lack of canine socialization. It can be a difficult obstacle to overcome.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:28 pm

As I am in the business of selling trained dogs I do it the other way round!
The pups stay here and the mum goes (not always) when they are 10 weeks old

Aslowhiteguy · Post by **Aslowhiteguy** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:31 pm

Was it those monks (I forget the title of the book) who said 10 weeks is the optimal time to pick up a pup?

Wolters, as I recall, said 7 weeks. And we all know what an authority he was on the selecting, raising and training a pup. :roll:

8 weeks is the minimum age where you can ship a pup via the airlines.

6 weeks is just too young, IMO . I wouldn't take a pup at that age if they were living next-door to me.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:09 pm

Aslowhiteguy wrote:Was it those monks (I forget the title of the book) who said 10 weeks is the optimal time to pick up a pup?

Wolters, as I recall, said 7 weeks. And we all know what an authority he was on the selecting, raising and training a pup. :roll:

8 weeks is the minimum age where you can ship a pup via the airlines.

6 weeks is just too young, IMO . I wouldn't take a pup at that age if they were living next-door to me.

The Monks of New Skete, The Art of Raising a Puppy.

Socialization with mom and the pups till 8 - 10 weeks is important. This is the time Mom teaches the pups how to behave and when they learn from the other pups where they fit in socially whether dominant or submissive or somewhere in the middle.

If puppies don't go through this time with mom and littermates, they can be clueless on how to behave with other dogs and people as adults. Ever see an adult dog that jumps on people no matter what you do? Good chance Mom didn't growl that pup to the ground when it was young to teach it a lesson.

Wolves stay together as a family far longer than 8 -10 weeks that is for darn sure, otherwise a pup that doesn't know how to behave is a dead pup.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:57 pm

nevermind wrote:There's a post currently going on in which the OP was asking about basic training of his pup....anyway the post went somewhat sideway when OP mentioned he was picking up the pup at 6weeks. This perked my interest.
I'm getting a pup from a breeder that said he wanted to release his pups at 6wks. and I have 1st pick of this future litter. This breeder has had all his previous litters sold before they hit the ground with great fed back from buyers. What I want is feed back from breeders on the pro's and con's of releasing a pup @ 6wks. Please...just facts not what I feel or my uncles' uncle had this or that happen...sorry if I seem blunt, but I want to get some feed back as I've already made a nonrefundable deposit.

Some info here:

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... at+6+weeks.

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... at+6+weeks

One major thing they learn between 6-8 + weeks is "bite inhibition" . Siblings and Mom don't put up with hard biting in play.

Personally I would never deal with a breeder who releases pups at 6 weeks and depending on how rich I was , I would forfeit my deposit if I made a mistake.( You said you wanted it blunt.

)

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:57 pm

OK, I will play. I have had several dams die at whelping or soon after, Placed the pups as soon as possible, often at 2 - 3 days. All turn out as well as those kept until 8 weeks. The best dog I ever owned I got at 5 weeks.

I kept one whole litter until 6 months old to see what Mom might teach them, she did a great job on demanding they back, but did not instill anymore hunt than I would have expected.

Like most aspects, it depends on what you do with them after you get them.

Still think th OP rude, so this was for the rest of you.

PS. Was surprised no one mentioned the 49 day nonsense. What a nut.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:05 am

RoostersMom wrote:Leaving a pup with his littermates has nothing to do with weaning at all. It has very little to do with nutrition.

It's all about proper dog to dog socialization. The pup learns A LOT from 6 weeks to 10 weeks from his littermates, things like bite inhibition, how to read body language (of other dogs), and how to interact with other dogs. For you - He is more confident and easier to bond with and crate train at 10 weeks than at 6 weeks. Pups taken too soon are much more likely to interact poorly with other dogs. Pups taken too early can sometimes develop separation issues in their new homes as well - more frequently, I believe, than dogs who have stayed with the litter until 10 weeks. You can't get the things they learn in the litter any other way - an adult dog in your own home can't replace the littermates for that type of interaction. It's great if the litter stays with the mom during this time, but usually it's just the littermates together. This provides the pup a great start on his forever life!

this is how I feel about it, I have a EP right now that was taken at 5 weeks and she's NOT dog socialized although she's fine with people.

Its a problem you don't want, I have to watch her closely to prevent fights.

Pup need to learn how to be dogs the human interaction is easy for us to teach, but we cannot teach being a dog.

nevermind · Post by **nevermind** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:07 am

I apologize for being rude....no excuses.

buff · Post by **buff** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:36 am

I'm with Neil on this one.. Picked up alot pups at five and six weeks of age and ain't had a not one problem...

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:30 pm

I think statistically you could buy 10 second hand cars in your life and not have a problem with any of them.
You could also buy one! and it would be the car from heck!

Individuals circumstance and environment when speaking/regarding a living being however is so much different to a machine or 'statistics'.

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:44 pm

I've read articles in the past suggesting getting a puppy prior to 8 weeks can cause anxiety and nervous biting issues later. If I find the article I'll post it. It was not talking about gun dogs necessarily but was more so referring to bite statistics and age of dogs being released from the "breeder".

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:19 pm

I'm more than certain one could recite articles from the internet regarding a myriad of blogs and theories and opinions.
What's yours?

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:39 pm

polmaise wrote:I'm more than certain one could recite articles from the internet regarding a myriad of blogs and theories and opinions.
What's yours?

Well the OP is asking for facts, so I'm trying to offer words from a source that would make it reasonably credible rather than the random words of an Internet forum member like myself.

If you are asking my opinion, then I don't see any harm that could come from leaving the pup with the litter till 8-10 weeks, and definitely some good that could come from it (more socializing, etc). There is arguably potential for harm from removing them early, and I see no gain, therefore go the safer route and don't get it till at least 8 weeks.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:11 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:
polmaise wrote:I'm more than certain one could recite articles from the internet regarding a myriad of blogs and theories and opinions.
What's yours?
Well the OP is asking for facts, so I'm trying to offer words from a source that would make it reasonably credible rather than the random words of an Internet forum member like myself.

If you are asking my opinion, then I don't see any harm that could come from leaving the pup with the litter till 8-10 weeks, and definitely some good that could come from it (more socializing, etc). There is arguably potential for harm from removing them early, and I see no gain, therefore go the safer route and don't get it till at least 8 weeks.

Personally I would rather have the opinion of someone like yourself ,rightly or wrongly!...because I can have dialogue with,rather than anyone I don't know or has commented on the internet and that in it'self is absolutely no justification of clarity or certification

Pretty 'easy peasy' to separate the wheat from the chaff when you start talkin?...Is that not what makes a forum? otherwise we could all just google everything and believe everything that some dude is listed on google ?

Bluesky2012 · Post by **Bluesky2012** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:18 pm

polmaise wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:
polmaise wrote:I'm more than certain one could recite articles from the internet regarding a myriad of blogs and theories and opinions.
What's yours?
Well the OP is asking for facts, so I'm trying to offer words from a source that would make it reasonably credible rather than the random words of an Internet forum member like myself.

If you are asking my opinion, then I don't see any harm that could come from leaving the pup with the litter till 8-10 weeks, and definitely some good that could come from it (more socializing, etc). There is arguably potential for harm from removing them early, and I see no gain, therefore go the safer route and don't get it till at least 8 weeks.
Personally I would rather have the opinion of someone like yourself ,rightly or wrongly!...because I can have dialogue with,rather than anyone I don't know or has commented on the internet and that in it'self is absolutely no justification of clarity or certification
Pretty 'easy peasy' to separate the wheat from the chaff when you start talkin?...Is that not what makes a forum? otherwise we could all just google everything and believe everything that some dude is listed on google ?

Lots of truth in that statement. Not hard to make a website that seems legitimate and make yourself sound knowledgeable. Much harder to be able to actually discuss your beliefs when another person can counter.

mowermandan · Post by **mowermandan** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:10 pm

So the way OP asked was what defeits could be created as I understood by taking a pup at six weeks and that seems to be a matter of personal preference more than actually creating any great differences in the pups long term social or developmental abilities and behavior

Pepper · Post by **Pepper** » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:45 pm

There is a reason for some things. There is a reason on why and there is a reason what is said to make a decision on that reason. When there is money involved, then it would be behoove us to make a smart choice on what we choose to believe and what is indeed fact. I really don't believe we can become that gullible in making our decision. Just saying.

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:07 am

Bluesky 2012 and polmaise, you've made some interesting comments about Google searches, internet blogs, and forums. Too many people forget that they should really put on their "critical thinking caps" when they are sifting through the internet for accurate information.

All I have to offer on the subject is opinion, so FWIW here it is: error on the side of caution -- more time with pup's littermates usually can't hurt. The only exception to this I can think of is a breeder who can't/won't spend a good amount of time giving the pups some human interaction. The fact is that I have known several people who have successfully brought a pup home at 6 to 7 weeks old. The one thing they had in common was that they all had other dogs at home. Consequently, I am guessing that if you have to &/or want to bring a pup home younger than 8 to 10 weeks, then having other dogs around will be a great help, if not a necessity.

To the OP: Sorry I know you only wanted facts, and no personal opinions or experiences, but this forum would be a much poorer place if the members did not share their experiences. Its up to the reader to figure out who to pay attention to and who to ignore.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:36 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:I've read articles in the past suggesting getting a puppy prior to 8 weeks can cause anxiety and nervous biting issues later. If I find the article I'll post it. It was not talking about gun dogs necessarily but was more so referring to bite statistics and age of dogs being released from the "breeder".

These threads get so stupid when the topic has such an obvious and well documented explanation.

Puppy socialization in the litter is not some arcane point or just someone's opinion. It is Pack Behavior 101.

There are always exceptions, as life is nothing but a normal distribution curve, but there still is a right answer when you are talking about the vast majority of observations.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:55 am

As owner of a Boarding Kennel and also Trainer of bird dogs the number 1 problem I face with dogs, either training or boarding, is the lack of socialization. I see many rescue dogs that come from shelters also. They are usually in a shelter for a reason, and after living with them for several days or weeks I can understand why. This is not all shelter dogs, but it is certainly a high percentage of them. I have come to the conclusion that the biggest problem with these problem dogs is the lack of socialization by the BREEDER. Now some of these dogs were accidental pasture bred dogs and I would not consider the owners as breeders, so I will let them off the hook as they probably did the best they could with the situation and just don`t know any different. But with the trainers I get, all are Purebred dogs that cost a fair amount of money, and when I get a purebred dog in for training or they pay me a visit prior to the training and the pup is scared of his own shadow, scared of birds, scared of other dogs, scared of people, scared of any noise, I place blame on the breeders. Most breeders will tell the new owner that they must socialize the pup. Good Advice! But what has the breeder done for socialization? This is a very important part of buying a pup. We have all heard the saying "Decide on a breed then find a good breeder". A good breeder not only tries and breed sound pups, they also should try and find the proper homes for the pups and they should also Socialize the litter of pups.
When my buyers ask me when they can pick up the pups I tell them when they are ready. Hopefully I will have them ready at 8-9 weeks. If it takes until 10 weeks so be it. What do I do to get the litter ready? Remember the poster that said "Everything I need to know about life I learned in Kindergarten"? Well I believe that pups learn everything they need to know about being a good dog at the Kennel as a Litter.
At 5 weeks my pups are outside in a Scott Kennel. There they experience rain and Tstorms as a litter. They see the cars, tractors, motorcycles,lawnmowers, leaf blowers, horses, distant gunfire, wind, distant noise. They each will sleep in a crate alone prior to leaving here, so that the owners do not have to deal with a whining puppy that needs to sleep in their bedroom because it is scared. Each pup will travel in a crate or in the truck before leaving. Never had a dog that was car sick on the way home. I ship pups all over the country and when they get out of the crate they are dry and confident. The pups will go as a litter swimming for the first time. They will follow me into the water and wade and swim together. They don`t have any fear at this time so take advantage of it. Customers stop in and the kids ask to see the puppies, I say that is what they are there for. Have at it. The pups will get to see other dogs as a litter. They will fight over a dead bird as a litter. This also helps me determine who is who in the litter. When let out of the Scott Kennel they go potty on the ground and by 8 weeks we will see most of them go find a place out yonder to do their business. They have not been pooping on the floor for the last 4 weeks and then go to their new home and find out they can no longer do their business in the house. They are not exposed to the hazardous cleaners that are used to clean up the mess either. If one of the pups messes in the Scott Kennel I swear the other pups let him know. The box is spotless.
The results are BOLD puppies that are mentally stable, that are basically crate trained when they leave. They have for all practical purposes learned everything they need to know as a LITTER here at my Kindergarten.

Now it may sound as I am blowing my horn, sorry if I come across as such. It is not my intentions. I am only trying to show how a pup that is let go at 6 weeks cannot possibly have this much Socialization and you are playing with fire. If the pups loose their mother like Neil describes that is a completely different situation. But to intentionally let the puppies go at 5-6 weeks is reckless. I would ask WHY? What benefits are there to letting the pup experience all the above ALONE and AFRAID?
Just trying to help others find a good breeder. There are breeders and there are Great breeders. A Great breeder Socializes their pups before they go to their new homes and you will notice the difference immediately. My flame suit is on.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:49 pm

I will add to Vman's post a bit. As he and others have stated, it is most important for the breeder to socialize the pups, and I start from the day they are born, handling them each day to weight them, etc. I let the neighborhood kids start to socialize them at 5 weeks, but they have been handled countless times before that time comes. 7 weeks is fine, but I believe 8-10 is optimum as long as they are getting good socialization from the breeder.

Steve

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:39 pm

+1 VMan

Starting puppies right is the foundation of a well rounded solid dog.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:05 pm

With our sleddogs we seldom sold them before they were at least a year and well on their way to becoming well trained dogs. While I agree that 8-10 weeks is a great time to get a dog, socialization can't stop there. Important dates in a pups life are also at 4 months and 8 months. I don't know why that time frame, but ignore it and your pup may go backwards in its socialization. Our Pups learn to ride in the dog box at an early age and go to races as well. Long before they are old enough to race. A pup bought at 10-weeks and then left in a kennel to grow up will be no better socialized than one bought at 6-weeks that gets to spend lots of time with its new owner learning about life. It's a lot of work to raise a pup and I think too many people are not prepared for a pup in the house. This is a gundog forum and I'm assuming most have a bit more knowledge of what it takes to raise a pup than the average joe. It's a commitment pure and simple and the rewards are tremendous. To be on the safe side give that pup those extra two weeks.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:31 pm

One thing canine behavior authors (that I've read) don't dive into very deeply is Imprinting. The first two weeks (or slightly less) of life a newborn pup is pure instinct, with very little learning going on, (neonatal period). Eyes and ears are sealed and even olfactory has little development. 2-3 weeks is the transitional period where they open their eyes, start to stand on legs and walk (very unsteadily), open their ears, etc. week 3 begins the socialization period where learning takes off. This period ends at around 14 weeks. If they are not socialized during this period, there is basically no hope to ever socialize them properly. However, "Imprinting" is happening from 3-7 weeks. They need to be "imprinted to their litter-mates (and mother) for them to have normal canine behavior (learn how to be a dog). This is why herd guarding dogs are put in to socialize with sheep at 4-5 weeks of age, so they will imprint to them and guard against other canine predators. By 7 weeks of age (or sooner) imprinting is pretty much turned off and they know they are dogs. That's just one explanation of "WHY" you want to wait to take them from the litter. Probably no harm from 6 week separation, but I won't let mine go that young. Just my $.02, for what it's worth.

nevermind · Post by **nevermind** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:32 pm

KCBrittfan wrote:Bluesky 2012 and polmaise, you've made some interesting comments about Google searches, internet blogs, and forums. Too many people forget that they should really put on their "critical thinking caps" when they are sifting through the internet for accurate information.

All I have to offer on the subject is opinion, so FWIW here it is: error on the side of caution -- more time with pup's littermates usually can't hurt. The only exception to this I can think of is a breeder who can't/won't spend a good amount of time giving the pups some human interaction. The fact is that I have known several people who have successfully brought a pup home at 6 to 7 weeks old. The one thing they had in common was that they all had other dogs at home. Consequently, I am guessing that if you have to &/or want to bring a pup home younger than 8 to 10 weeks, then having other dogs around will be a great help, if not a necessity.

To the OP: Sorry I know you only wanted facts, and no personal opinions or experiences, but this forum would be a much poorer place if the members did not share their experiences. Its up to the reader to figure out who to pay attention to and who to ignore.

Nothing to be sorry about ...I must have been misunderstood. I wanted people to give me info from their experiences.... that's what I consider to be helpful information. I should of realized being on a forum and not asking for opinions would alienate members....sorry for that. I appreciate all the input.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:33 pm

We normally forgive quickly. Forget about it.

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:51 pm

Vman preaches this constantly. Excellent post Lee. This, as well as how he selects sire and dam for breeding, are why I am buying my next vizsla pup from him.

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