Close, medium, big running dogs?

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greg jacobs
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Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by greg jacobs » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:59 pm

For the pointing breeds. What do people think is an average working distance? Out in open country. Here is a guess on my part. I've never seen people use yards when talking about working distance so I just don't know.
Bootlicker. 35 yds
Close working 100 yds
Medium working. 200 yds
Big running. 400 yds
Am I any where close, or off by a mile.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:28 pm

I don't think there is a distance as a good dog will work objectives where ever they may be. That means every field you are in presents different cover and that translates into different distances. Every field holds different birds and possibly a different amount of birds and that means different distances. Distance means a lot more with a flushing dog that hunts in a quartering or windshield wiper pattern but a dog that looks for objectives will not pay much attention to distance from you. JMO and experience.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by will-kelly » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:41 pm

In my eyes a 35 yard dog would be the close worker. 100 medium 200+ Big Runner.

My experience is that once a dog will hunt 200+ yards out they will hunt a mile.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:50 pm

I never worry about labeling a working distance or a dog....might ask the dogs what they think about labeling bird-hunters.
That orta be a hoot.
I do like the stopping distance to enable a chance at a shot...that varies with the bird and cover tho.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by greg jacobs » Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:10 pm

My dog spends a lot of time out at 150 to 250 out in the sagebrush. 1 1/2 year old shorthair. At 200 to 300 yds she is generally out of sight with the gullies, hills, sagebrush. If she hits 300-400 yds I generally recall her. Using the tone on the alpha like a whistle. Last summer the wife and I would walk out in the sagebrush and she would roll on out to 600 or 800yds. I've had to reel her back in a bit. Going to get a pup in a couple years. And some of the breeders will label the dogs. I don't need one that runs any bigger than what I have for sure. That's where the question is coming from.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:13 pm

That is how I view dogs as well. For pheasant, I don't like them past 200 yards and that is an absolute max. For grouse, 100 yards.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:27 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:That is how I view dogs as well. For pheasant, I don't like them past 200 yards and that is an absolute max. For grouse, 100 yards.
You surprise me gonehuntin.
For dogs and game I usually let the dog tell me where it is , the ground cover doesn't matter.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:38 pm

polmaise wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That is how I view dogs as well. For pheasant, I don't like them past 200 yards and that is an absolute max. For grouse, 100 yards.
You surprise me gonehuntin.
For dogs and game I usually let the dog tell me where it is , the ground cover doesn't matter.
Let me expand on that just a bit Robert. Here, our birds like pheasant are under tremendous pressure. What i have found, at least in my own mind, feeble as it is, is that pheasant get nervous and either run or flush wild before I get to them if the dog is beyond 200 yards. I don't tell the dog where to go, I turn it loose and more or less follow it, though I do walk toward where I think the birds are and let the dog adjust to that.

With out forest grouse I've found pretty much the same thing. The further i have to walk through the dense, dry, noisy woods, the less chance a grouse will be there when I get there.

That's MY thinking but I certainly wouldn't argue the point one way or another.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by ESS13 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:28 pm

What percentage of you guys use GPS e collars on your long ranging pointers? I can imagine if the dog is ranging 400 yards plus, you must need to have a unit with GPS. And too, do you guys have a dog go on point 600 yards out and then meet up with your dog and flush the bird? If thats the case thats is amazing. A little different than the springer spaniel method of 30-40 yard quartering pattern.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by JAG06 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:13 pm

I train dogs for a living and this discussion is hard bc people do have very, very different opinions on how long a yard is LOL. Most people that want a foot hunting dog do not want them out more than 50 yards. A majority think their dog is out 100 yards, but if you show them a dog running consistently 100-200 yards they will almost always say it ranges to big. I would say 95 percent of people that hunt on foot (not field trial) want a dog that is less than 100 yards out at all times, and than most of the time stay around 50 yards. A large percentage of them will consistently double the range when describing it , but it will not change the facts. Put a Garmin on your dog and check !

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by JAG06 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:21 pm

To answer your question about working distance, when hunting quail (I do not hunt on foot, but from UTV) then for me ideal is to have one close working dog within 50-60 yards and one dog running 100-200. That will vary depending on terrain and which individual dogs you have down at any one time. But as a rule of thumb it works very good. If the are is open and does not have much birds, or you are trying to first find where they are - then I will use a bigger running dog, put GPS on and let them go. Running this way and changing dogs every 30 minutes you can cover a lot of ground pretty good.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by ESS13 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:42 pm

So cool. I would love to see such strategy.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Sharon » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:06 pm

big running dogs: National Championship video can be bought

http://pleasanthillproductions.com/

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by SetterNut » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:15 pm

JAG06 I think you are exactly right that most people over estimate the range that their dogs are working at most of the time.
I am in the Flinthill of KS and we have a lot of plum thicket, hedge row and fence lines. I love having a dog that will hit the objectives or take a line on the down wind side and go till they find birds or hit the end and work back.

Basically if you have a dog that will stand its birds (quail) for as long as it take for you to get there, and have a GPS to find them when on point, you shoot more birds. An experienced big running dog covers a lot more good ground than you can cover with a close working dog.

600 yards is a lot farther than most people think.
Image

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Big bloc » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:18 am

SetterNut wrote:JAG06 I think you are exactly right that most people over estimate the range that their dogs are working at most of the time.
I am in the Flinthill of KS and we have a lot of plum thicket, hedge row and fence lines. I love having a dog that will hit the objectives or take a line on the down wind side and go till they find birds or hit the end and work back.

Basically if you have a dog that will stand its birds (quail) for as long as it take for you to get there, and have a GPS to find them when on point, you shoot more birds. An experienced big running dog covers a lot more good ground than you can cover with a close working dog.

600 yards is a lot farther than most people think.
Image
I also live here in Kansas. But here we have a lot of CRP big sections some of the grass is waist deep. There is no way I could run 400yards in that grass to get to the dog without being out of breath to shoot. I have my EP work under 50yards for that reason. I might have to make it up there sometime to try something different

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:50 am

greg jacobs wrote:For the pointing breeds. What do people think is an average working distance? Out in open country. Here is a guess on my part. I've never seen people use yards when talking about working distance so I just don't know.
Bootlicker. 35 yds
Close working 100 yds
Medium working. 200 yds
Big running. 400 yds
Am I any where close, or off by a mile.

IN TRULY OPEN COUNTRY I would say that you are pretty much right on with your estimates. I would say that MY medium would be 150-300 yd. and anything that runs CONSISTENTLY bigger than that(and the upper limit is open ended)...is a big running dog.

If the country has pockets of heavy cover or has chest high grass...that ain't open country to my way of thinking. If you can see a standing deer out to a half mile and most of the way in between...THAT is open country to me.

RayG

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Gordon Guy » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:49 pm

Here's some open country.
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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Gordon Guy » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:32 pm

The definitions of those terms depends on the country you hunt, trust in your dog and your need for control.

Added as an afterthought - And your ability to get there.
:wink:
Last edited by Gordon Guy on Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:01 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
polmaise wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:That is how I view dogs as well. For pheasant, I don't like them past 200 yards and that is an absolute max. For grouse, 100 yards.
You surprise me gonehuntin.
For dogs and game I usually let the dog tell me where it is , the ground cover doesn't matter.
Let me expand on that just a bit Robert. Here, our birds like pheasant are under tremendous pressure. What i have found, at least in my own mind, feeble as it is, is that pheasant get nervous and either run or flush wild before I get to them if the dog is beyond 200 yards. I don't tell the dog where to go, I turn it loose and more or less follow it, though I do walk toward where I think the birds are and let the dog adjust to that.

With out forest grouse I've found pretty much the same thing. The further i have to walk through the dense, dry, noisy woods, the less chance a grouse will be there when I get there.

That's MY thinking but I certainly wouldn't argue the point one way or another.
It's a fair comment :wink: ..Wild game (as in not reared,like we have many) ,but there are a few places where these are hunted as wild , will certainly 'Run' Before they Fly!
Ground cover usually dictates what the bird and the dog will do !..We just have to 'read' them .

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:37 pm

Be nice if more folks looked at and valued dog or range or hair length as a preference of what makes them grin rather than that which delivers a bent tailgate.
Production is part of the process but being satisfied with any choice should deal with more than just...what delievers production.
imho
But, message borads would often grind to a snore were that idea to ever be a reality.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:32 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Be nice if more folks looked at and valued dog or range or hair length as a preference of what makes them grin rather than that which delivers a bent tailgate.
Production is part of the process but being satisfied with any choice should deal with more than just...what delievers production.
imho
But, message borads would often grind to a snore were that idea to ever be a reality.
From what I am reading I think your idea has been a major factor in many minds for years.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:21 pm

I reckon if you get the bird in the bag it's done :wink:

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by ACooper » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:08 am

greg jacobs wrote:For the pointing breeds. What do people think is an average working distance? Out in open country. Here is a guess on my part. I've never seen people use yards when talking about working distance so I just don't know.
Bootlicker. 35 yds
Close working 100 yds
Medium working. 200 yds
Big running. 400 yds
Am I any where close, or off by a mile.
There are many more factors than just how far. What type of cover? What about terrain? There are places that a 100 yd dog would be a bootlicker.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Vision » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:11 am

SetterNut wrote:JAG06 I think you are exactly right that most people over estimate the range that their dogs are working at most of the time.
I am in the Flinthill of KS and we have a lot of plum thicket, hedge row and fence lines. I love having a dog that will hit the objectives or take a line on the down wind side and go till they find birds or hit the end and work back.

Basically if you have a dog that will stand its birds (quail) for as long as it take for you to get there, and have a GPS to find them when on point, you shoot more birds. An experienced big running dog covers a lot more good ground than you can cover with a close working dog.

600 yards is a lot farther than most people think.
Image

I love that picture for the 1000 words it doesn't say, but the message it delivers

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by greg jacobs » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:23 am

Thanks everyone. Looks like in a couple years when I get serious about another pup. The question had better be asked to the breeder. Most people wanted to throw in cover and terrain in. That brings up another question. (Part 2)

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by JKP » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:02 pm

My dogs work in the 50-300 yd range depending on cove. I prefer to judge dogs on how often they are in front of birds rather than how big they run. IME... yardage doesn't guarantee game.

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by QuillGordon » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:47 am

I hunt with a feller who has a big runner (Setter), who really doesn't run, more of a methodical lope. I've seen this hound range out close to a half mile & go on point. The owner mad as h*** at the time knowing he had to cross a cyn to get to his dog on point. Luckily, he made it to the hound who still held some birds (Chukar) & was rewarded with some shooting. I seem to recall he ended up with a bird or two in his bag but it's been a while & my memory fades. This is not my style, I personally like a hound to range out as far as say five minutes (give or take) walking/hiking distance especially later in the season when hunting skittish birds. Too each their own

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Re: Close, medium, big running dogs?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:10 pm

greg jacobs wrote:My dog spends a lot of time out at 150 to 250 out in the sagebrush. 1 1/2 year old shorthair. At 200 to 300 yds she is generally out of sight with the gullies, hills, sagebrush.....
The arroyos around Vegas make for some odd variations of open ground as well. I had to go back and work more on conditioning my dog to check back with me, and still get surprised sometimes on where he pops up from. The range itself definitely seems less an issue that being able to locate him.

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