Best Dual Champions

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GunDogAdventures
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Best Dual Champions

Post by GunDogAdventures » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:01 pm

I read through some older posts about Dual Champions, including some by those that felt that those dogs can't REALLY be good at either. So, those of you that have seen DCs run in field trials. Which would you categorize as the best ones a) In the past b) Currently.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by JKP » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:56 pm

Look at the competition and venues...should pretty well tell the story.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:38 pm

I would say best is a relative term..... the vast majority of DC I have seen go, were average at best in the field. Personally I have not seen many that blew my skirt up....

Jim

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by deseeker » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:17 pm

In the Brittany world there are quite a few NFC & NAFC that are Dual Champion dogs :D

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:48 am

Unfortunately until the Britt clubs open their sand box to the rest of the world I'll remain skeptical....

Jim

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:28 am

Unfortunately until the Britt clubs open their sand box to the rest of the world I'll remain skeptical....
Does that mean these dogs are second class? Are quarter horses "dirt" because they can't run with thoroughbreds?

The word "best" disturbs me? Best is what's best to me....once I know that, I can go looking for what's best....but then i assume we are talking hunting dogs.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Karen » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:52 am

Whose breed national championships are open to other breeds?

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:57 am

deseeker wrote:In the Brittany world there are quite a few NFC & NAFC that are Dual Champion dogs :D
As a Brittany guy, I think this is the best one we ever had.

Pacolet Cheyenne Sam won the National Specialty Show in 1970, the National Championship in 1971 and an
American Field three-hour Endurance Championship. His production record puts him near the top for the
breed. (read competing against long tails)

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:10 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:Unfortunately until the Britt clubs open their sand box to the rest of the world I'll remain skeptical....

Jim
So you do not have the ability to independently evaluate a dog's performance on your own, but must rely on their win record against other breeds? Interesting.

Sam was the best, but there have been a number of Britt DC' s that did well in the Field.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:37 am

I will vote for DC Bandee as my best performing as well as producing. And I would vote for Waknut Hill's Fritz in the GSP's.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:43 am

National championships have little to nothing to do with a dog getting a DC, most if not all are won at the local weekend level.

I have ridden 95% of the braces at Every trial I have ever been too and to call MOST DC's the best of anything is questionable at best.

Jim

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:57 am

You will be hard pressed to support that position till you can show everyone how the title even enters into a field placement and how it contributes to all of us being able to pick out the Duals without looking at the program. Correct confirmation does not take away field ability.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by cmc274 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:01 am

The fact is that majority of brit trials are closed breed trials, so the question is would there be as many FC or DCs if their trials were open to all breeds. Just makes comparisons difficult. Now I've been to one open breed trial Ben Lorenson ran his string of dogs in, they called his name more than they didnt for placements, so I am not saying that arent competitive.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:19 am

Odyssey kennels had Sam St. Max and they have Odyssey's Perfect Traveler now, I'm not sure If Charlie has finished is bench title (but if he hasn't, he will) - he is a bird dog. So was Sam.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ACooper » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:40 am

Karen wrote:Whose breed national championships are open to other breeds?

No, but most other breeds open up weekend trials, the majority of Brit trials are closed not just the national.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:41 am

It is not a fact that most Brittany trials are closed. There are currently 23 approved Brittany club trials scheduled via AKC in January, February and March. 12 are open without restriction, 5 have partially restricted stakes and 6 are closed trials. You will find that most closed trials are set as such because the coincide with a large event and numerous pros attend. They have a large number of dogs and generally only "X" amount of time to complete a trial. There are certainly situations where trials have been and will be again, closed to a specific breed for less than adequate reasons; however, that is not generally the case. People tend to see themselves as "customers" in dog clubs and field trials that is not the case, they are non-profits run by volunteers and the greatest threat to them is wearing out those that walk the talk.

There are wide variations in the quality of dual champions in the Brittany world. Some are of exceptional field quality IMO and others are not my type of dog...however, I find the same thing when I judge another breed trial and even pure A/F or AFTCA events, and most certainly when I see folks and their hunting dogs in the field. The common ground of "dog" and "hunting" needs support regardless of breed or venue so it does not quietly fade away.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by cmc274 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:10 am

Of the ones I've seen (GSP, Vizsla and brit) some have been serviceable dogs others were just being kicked down the road for the letters. All in all though I aint sure any of them we're the kind that a serious bird hunter would feed.

Joe, the closed brit thing has been beat to death, but its on the front burner for me as AKC recently gave us grief for trying to have a trial the same weekend as a closed brit trial. We could be taking away their entries, well if they were so worried about entries, they should open up their trial.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:34 am

AKC should not deny another breed a date when competing with a closed trial...and no one should complain about entries when they close... I don't begrudge GSP folks being put off by some of these, their trials are always open.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:56 am

ACooper wrote:
Karen wrote:Whose breed national championships are open to other breeds?

No, but most other breeds open up weekend trials, the majority of Brit trials are closed not just the national.
Out here Britt trials are almost always open to all pointing breeds. We couldn't get enough entries for majors if that was not the case. Our Championships. are closed but most others are open.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by deseeker » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:35 pm

Here are the britts I think were the best Dual Champs. :D
Fairly current dogs--NFC/DC/AFC Ru-Jem's A Touch Of Bourbon (He is a 3X Purina Dog Of The Year--#1 AKC hour stake Brittany for that year)
Late '90s dogs---NFC/DC Gambler's Ace In The Hole (HOF Britt)
---NFC/DC Tequila's Joker (HOF Britt)
'70s dogs ----2XNFC/DC BanDee (HOF Britt)
---NFC/NAFC/DC Perry's Rustic Prince (HOF Britt)
Long Past dogs---3XNFC/DC Towsey (HOF Britt)

This is just my thoughts---others will think differently :roll:

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:58 pm

deseeker wrote:Here are the britts I think were the best Dual Champs. :D
Fairly current dogs--NFC/DC/AFC Ru-Jem's A Touch Of Bourbon (He is a 3X Purina Dog Of The Year--#1 AKC hour stake Brittany for that year)
Late '90s dogs---NFC/DC Gambler's Ace In The Hole (HOF Britt)
---NFC/DC Tequila's Joker (HOF Britt)
'70s dogs ----2XNFC/DC BanDee (HOF Britt)
---NFC/NAFC/DC Perry's Rustic Prince (HOF Britt)
Long Past dogs---3XNFC/DC Towsey (HOF Britt)

This is just my thoughts---others will think differently :roll:
This follows my thinking almost exactily, You might want to include Pacolet Cheyenne Sam for some of his accomplishments but there were some problems that showed up later that didn't help any.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by orbirdhunter » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:27 pm

NFC NAFC DC AFC Rudolphs blitzen von duffin comes to mind in my neck of the woods. Big time akc wirehair. AA akc dog. Over 100 placements, multiple national titles. Has sired quite a few field Champs and national field champs.
DC AFC wireswest Mardi Gras MHA is one of my personal favorite wirehairs.

Going back in time a bit NFC NAFC DC AFC cascade ike MH won a hand full of national titles....

With a little time I could list a ton more.....there are plentry of really nice wirehairs in/from the northwest that are dual champs and amazingly good field dogs. And that is just wirehairs....

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Karen » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:52 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
ACooper wrote:
Karen wrote:Whose breed national championships are open to other breeds?

No, but most other breeds open up weekend trials, the majority of Brit trials are closed not just the national.
Out here Britt trials are almost always open to all pointing breeds. We couldn't get enough entries for majors if that was not the case. Our Championships. are closed but most others are open.
Don't think my DC ever ran a Brittany trial that wasn't open to all pointing breeds (I'm in the Northeast). I think it's a HUGE misconception that MOST Brittany trials are closed to other breeds. A few may be....most wouldn't survive if they stayed closed.

Not sure what it proves when a 25" tall, 70 lb shorthair outruns a 25 lb. 18" tall Brittany though....but hey, that's just me.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by orbirdhunter » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:56 pm

I think the Brittany thing is regional....in the northwest most Brittany stakes are closed..and full.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ACooper » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:18 pm

Karen wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
ACooper wrote: No, but most other breeds open up weekend trials, the majority of Brit trials are closed not just the national.
Out here Britt trials are almost always open to all pointing breeds. We couldn't get enough entries for majors if that was not the case. Our Championships. are closed but most others are open.
Don't think my DC ever ran a Brittany trial that wasn't open to all pointing breeds (I'm in the Northeast). I think it's a HUGE misconception that MOST Brittany trials are closed to other breeds. A few may be....most wouldn't survive if they stayed closed.

Not sure what it proves when a 25" tall, 70 lb shorthair outruns a 25 lb. 18" tall Brittany though....but hey, that's just me.
Someone mentioned above that maybe it's a regional thing with Britt clubs. It sounds like that is the case, I made a sweeping generalization when I said most Brittany club trials are closed. I have no idea, I don't know about most Brittany trials, what I do know about are the OK and KS Brittany clubs and all of their trials are closed.
Last edited by ACooper on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ACooper » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:21 pm

Karen wrote:Not sure what it proves when a 25" tall, 70 lb shorthair outruns a 25 lb. 18" tall Brittany though....but hey, that's just me.
This make no sense.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by jetjockey » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:24 pm

Karen wrote:Not sure what it proves when a 25" tall, 70 lb shorthair outruns a 25 lb. 18" tall Brittany though....but hey, that's just me.
There's very few 25lb. 18" Brittany's running trials.... And winning... My brit is 34 lbs soaking wet, not very tall, and she's almost always the smallest dog entered in her trials. She has no problem competing with much bigger dogs though.

From what I've seen, there are not a lot of Dual dogs who were top dogs in both venues. You may have a top trial dogs who sneak by their bench title, or great bench dogs that sneak by their field title, but not a lot of dogs who can do both really well.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by shags » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:28 pm

Karen wrote:
ACooper wrote:
Karen wrote:

No, but most other breeds open up weekend trials, the majority of Brit trials are closed not just the national.
Out here Britt trials are almost always open to all pointing breeds. We couldn't get enough entries for majors if that was not the case. Our Championships. are closed but most others are open.
Don't think my DC ever ran a Brittany trial that wasn't open to all pointing breeds (I'm in the Northeast). I think it's a HUGE misconception that MOST Brittany trials are closed to other breeds. A few may be....most wouldn't survive if they stayed closed.

Not sure what it proves when a 25" tall, 70 lb shorthair outruns a 25 lb. 18" tall Brittany though....but hey, that's just me.
*ring ring*
"Hi, I'd like to enter my setter in your amateur all age next month."
"OK, fine...see ya then!"

*ring ring*
"Hi, just calling to let you know we had to cancel our amateur all age."
"Oh that's too bad. not enough entries?"
"No, a few of our pros said they wouldn't enter if we had any stakes open to all breeds, and we can't afford to lose them".

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by jetjockey » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:32 pm

Why would a Pro care about what's entered in an Amateur stake?

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by shags » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:12 pm

Because their clients want to run their dogs in ammy stakes?

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by jetjockey » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:19 pm

So they would rather cancel the AAA trial and not run at all, then to run agaisnt another breed? I'm an Amateur who fits the description you are talking about, and would be furious if I didn't get to run my dog because of what you described.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Karen » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:22 pm

So we went from giving an opinion on who the best dual champions were/are, to bashing duals, to bashing Brittany trials. VERY productive and I'm sure will help grow the sport.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by P&PGunsmith » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:38 pm

GunDogAdventures wrote:I read through some older posts about Dual Champions, including some by those that felt that those dogs can't REALLY be good at either. So, those of you that have seen DCs run in field trials. Which would you categorize as the best ones a) In the past b) Currently.
I have only been the dog games for a short time. I cant imagine all the time and money it takes to become a DC. Doesn't matter what breed or how you get their, if you get there both you and the dog should be congratulated. Past or Present.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:35 pm

Chukar12 wrote:AKC should not deny another breed a date when competing with a closed trial...and no one should complain about entries when they close... I don't begrudge GSP folks being put off by some of these, their trials are always open.
What about the Continental Championship held in Illinois, often called the All Breed? It is closed to Brittanys, a decidedly continental breed. Why do you think that is?

If the others can't answer a simple question without bashing a breed, they need a new hobby.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by GunDogAdventures » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:22 pm

Thanks Karen, for trying to reign in the original posted question, but the forum sometimes has a will of it's own. Just having entered the Field Trial arena and peeking over into the show ring, I was just curious of people's opinion on the best DC they had personally seen. I've yet to see a DC run, but recently laid eyes on a handsome CH GSP that placed well in a field trial. He's only a couple points away from a DC. I was impressed, but I'm new too.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ACooper » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:30 pm

GunDogAdventures wrote:Thanks Karen, for trying to reign in the original posted question, but the forum sometimes has a will of it's own. Just having entered the Field Trial arena and peeking over into the show ring, I was just curious of people's opinion on the best DC they had personally seen. I've yet to see a DC run, but recently laid eyes on a handsome CH GSP that placed well in a field trial. He's only a couple points away from a DC. I was impressed, but I'm new too.
What dog did you see run?

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by GunDogAdventures » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:01 pm

Beverly Gilstrap's Hank Jr's Rowdy Friends "Rowdy"is who I saw. He's quite handsome, well built and has a great disposition. My understanding is that he's out of a repeat breeding that produced Llano's Tail Aflame.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:16 pm

One of the weaknesses with FT....the "lust" to be the best makes some folks incapable of appreciating anything less than what they consider the "best". Always sounded like the AA types looked down on the Shooting dog types that looked down on the AKC venue....the testosterone seems a bit much. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's the majority by a long shot..but seems prevalent enough to be distasteful. I'm betting most of these dogs would make for some very nice hunting...I think we need to remember that.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by rockyridge kennels » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:46 pm

Neil wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:AKC should not deny another breed a date when competing with a closed trial...and no one should complain about entries when they close... I don't begrudge GSP folks being put off by some of these, their trials are always open.
What about the Continental Championship held in Illinois, often called the All Breed? It is closed to Brittanys, a decidedly continental breed. Why do you think that is?

If the others can't answer a simple question without bashing a breed, they need a new hobby.[/quote


The all breeds official name is the NGPD championship (national German pointing dog) is the Brittany of German decent???

I assume that is the trial you are referring to unless you are referring to the winners classic sponsored by the field trial clubs of Illinois. In that case I believe the Brittany can compete..

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:48 pm

jetjockey wrote: From what I've seen, there are not a lot of Dual dogs who were top dogs in both venues. You may have a top trial dogs who sneak by their bench title, or great bench dogs that sneak by their field title, but not a lot of dogs who can do both really well.
Agreed. Few and far between.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:58 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
jetjockey wrote: From what I've seen, there are not a lot of Dual dogs who were top dogs in both venues. You may have a top trial dogs who sneak by their bench title, or great bench dogs that sneak by their field title, but not a lot of dogs who can do both really well.
Agreed. Few and far between.


There probably is some truth to this but the poorest of them were better than the ones that weren't even qualified to compete in both.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Windyhills » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:53 pm

I am not sure how one can draw any broad conclusions.

Think of this--how many of the "best dogs you have ever seen" had an owner that had ANY inclination to put a show CH on their dog? Then ask how many could have been successful in doing so if they wanted?

I've known a few that have done that with what I think were some pretty fine dogs. A few have been mentioned already. They were good gun dogs first in most cases. And also produced a lot of good gun dogs of their own.

Then there's the question of which breed we are talking about. Every time I watch Westminster or some other big show I see some breeds that have dogs that look like they could hit the fields and hunt. And others that look completely different than typical field dogs of the same breed. Seems breed specific to me. Some seem to have show standards that aren't incompatible with good gun dogs, others apparently don't.

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by DonF » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:13 am

Seem's to me that the only stake that used to be closed at Britt trials was the all age stake's. And there was something about having a conformation show at a trial. I think there is something wrong with all breed trials, has always seem'ed to me that every breed was pretty much run to a pointer standard. Yet every breed was supposed to be designed to do things in a certain way.

Ore Britt Club Placement's, 5-12-13. Hope this works, photobucket made a change again.

http://s1363.photobucket.com/user/fisch ... /Brittanys

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by DonF » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:32 am

KwikIrish wrote:
jetjockey wrote: From what I've seen, there are not a lot of Dual dogs who were top dogs in both venues. You may have a top trial dogs who sneak by their bench title, or great bench dogs that sneak by their field title, but not a lot of dogs who can do both really well.
Agreed. Few and far between.
Lot of years ago, a guy with shorthairs I knew took his dog to a couple trials in Colorado to run. He said it was easier to get a ch back there. I'm sure some britt people either did or do the same thing. In fairly recent years, I've been seeing more people getting other pointing breeds not generally trialed. I've asked a few why and the answer is pretty much always the same, "I don't want to trial, I just want a hunting dog". Met one in Bend a couple years ago and he wanted to know where I got Squirt and Bodie. I told him and he said his son got one of them but he didn't want a dog that ran that big. He got a Griffon! The breed clubs should realize that they are turning off people with their field trials. Someone goes to see their first and finds out they can't watch it unless the ride a horse so they can keep up and it is a turn off. Good news is that there are a lot more walking trials now than years ago. Field trialing is a game that should show the trait's of the breed's to standard's for that breed. Open trials? All for them but then your pretty much back to the pointer standard.

I think to mostly appease the show people the pointing dog test's were developed. Much different standard there. But that is where show people get their tie to the hunting field. I get sick of seeing a dog with a ch title that has jr hunter behind it! Seem's to me that no dog group has done more for their breed than the Britt Club. A long time wirehair breeder I know told me years ago that I was lucky, I had shorthair's. I asked why and he told me that shorthairs run, wirehairs had to be trained to run. So, what'sa the standard';s for wirehairs?

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Vision » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:46 am

GunDogAdventures wrote:I read through some older posts about Dual Champions, including some by those that felt that those dogs can't REALLY be good at either. So, those of you that have seen DCs run in field trials. Which would you categorize as the best ones a) In the past b) Currently.

That's easy past, present, and future Abe would still be competitive today, DC Ehrlicer's Abe http://www.ngspa.org/HOF-inductees/abe.html

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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by Neil » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:32 am

rockyridge kennels wrote:
Neil wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:AKC should not deny another breed a date when competing with a closed trial...and no one should complain about entries when they close... I don't begrudge GSP folks being put off by some of these, their trials are always open.
What about the Continental Championship held in Illinois, often called the All Breed? It is closed to Brittanys, a decidedly continental breed. Why do you think that is?

If the others can't answer a simple question without bashing a breed, they need a new hobby.[/quote


The all breeds official name is the NGPD championship (national German pointing dog) is the Brittany of German decent???
Yep, that is the one.

Is the Viszla of German descent? It turns out it is just another GSP trial.

orbirdhunter
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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by orbirdhunter » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:42 am

I think that the long and short of it is there are alot of really nice dual champ dogs out there. In my neck of the woods alot of the wirehair trailers show as well so they have alot of duals. Shorthair people not nearly as many seem to show. In other parts of the country I'm sure that it's different. It seems in my opinion akc is very regional.
I will also say that I have never been to a show, and I have no idea how easy or hard it is to become a show champion. However, I respect the people that complete a dc. In my neck of the woods your not gon to earn a field title unless you have a nice field dog.

fuzznut
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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by fuzznut » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:32 pm

There are DC's that finished each title and have never been seen again in either the field or the show ring. They finished what their owners set out to accomplish and that was enough for them, or the dogs just were not good enough to continue.

Then, there are the DC's that go on and continue to compete in the field and do some pretty nice winning around the country. In GWP's we have had many Duals that have won or placed consistently in All Breed competition and in the AKC Gun Dog Championships. Marley, Joey, Tess, Blitz, Louie, Jaeger, Sonora always a threat when put down in front of the horse. There are very few stakes anywhere around the US closed to Wires only so the dogs have to get their wins in all breed competition.

We have had 2 BIS Dual Champions, several more Group Winning and Specialty show winning Duals that also placed multiple times in our National Championships. So there are good Duals out there and they should not be dismissed . I believe each club helps with placing importance on the Dual Champion, or hinders by not placing importance on them.

And of course there will be owners who have no interest at all in pursuing the DC title.

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KwikIrish
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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by KwikIrish » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:25 pm

Neil wrote: Is the Viszla of German descent? It turns out it is just another GSP trial.
Hungarian.

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GunDogAdventures
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Re: Best Dual Champions

Post by GunDogAdventures » Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:49 am

I just read an article where Parietti called the area between the extremes of the show ring and field trial as the "Golden Middle". Interesting perspective!

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