Gun Dog Forum

I hope to thru a name in the mix one day hopefully sooner than later.

ezzy333 wrote:I will vote for DC Bandee as my best performing as well as producing. And I would vote for Waknut Hill's Fritz in the GSP's.

Fritz is good and he has been breeding alot longer but his son DC VC Gambles Sam Man Mh has surpassed him. His other son Snips Sixth sens Wyatt, although never got his final conformation points before he passed, also surpassed Fritz. I have the trifecta sleeping at my feet. He has Fritz as grandfather on top & bottom, Sam is sire and the dam is a littermate to Sixth Sens Wyatt.

Lets not forget Muff is a Canadian DC.

RyanDoolittle wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:I will vote for DC Bandee as my best performing as well as producing. And I would vote for Waknut Hill's Fritz in the GSP's.

Fritz is good and he has been breeding alot longer but his son DC VC Gambles Sam Man Mh has surpassed him. His other son Snips Sixth sens Wyatt, although never got his final conformation points before he passed, also surpassed Fritz. I have the trifecta sleeping at my feet. He has Fritz as grandfather on top & bottom, Sam is sire and the dam is a littermate to Sixth Sens Wyatt.

Lets not forget Muff is a Canadian DC.

Guess you need to explain what your criteria is when you say Sam and Wyatt are better. I can't find any areas where they have surpassed the old man yet. Both are or were nice dogs and I take nothing away from them but Fritz as of now is way ahead of them.

Ezzy

Wyatts 2012 win record stands for itself.

Sams NAHDA titles as well as placements on the national level speak for themselves.

Fritz has been breeding alot longer so hos progeny has more titles. Although i wouldnt be surprised to see pups out of Sam getting the titles in the upcoming years and surpassing Fritz record. It will be interesting to see in 4 or 5 years when Sam is the same age as Fritz is now to see how Sam pups are doing.

RyanDoolittle wrote:Wyatts 2012 win record stands for itself.

Sams NAHDA titles as well as placements on the national level speak for themselves.

Fritz has been breeding alot longer so hos progeny has more titles. Although i wouldnt be surprised to see pups out of Sam getting the titles in the upcoming years and surpassing Fritz record. It will be interesting to see in 4 or 5 years when Sam is the same age as Fritz is now to see how Sam pups are doing.

So now you are agreeing with me when you say wait a few years to see if he does as well producing as Fritz, who by the way is the most titled dog in GSP history if I remember right. So I will stick with my choice till you can find the records that eclipse the old fellow.

If you werent too busy trolling for a fight you would see I say that in my last post in this thread.

The best argument you could make for Fritz is his progeny has run and placed on the National Level. I do not believe a Sam or Wyatt pup has done that yet. However their win records are better than Fritz's so if either one of those 2 dogs cant pass on more to their pups than Fritz dogs then Fitz would be the better one. However looking at Wyatt and Sam pups it wont be long until that is done.

RyanDoolittle wrote:If you werent too busy trolling for a fight you would see I say that in my last post in this thread.

The best argument you could make for Fritz is his progeny has run and placed on the National Level. I do not believe a Sam or Wyatt pup has done that yet. However their win records are better than Fritz's so if either one of those 2 dogs cant pass on more to their pups than Fritz dogs then Fitz would be the better one. However looking at Wyatt and Sam pups it wont be long until that is done.

The logic behind that statement escapes me. Potential is not production.

RyanDoolittle wrote:If you werent too busy trolling for a fight you would see I say that in my last post in this thread.

The best argument you could make for Fritz is his progeny has run and placed on the National Level. I do not believe a Sam or Wyatt pup has done that yet. However their win records are better than Fritz's so if either one of those 2 dogs cant pass on more to their pups than Fritz dogs then Fitz would be the better one. However looking at Wyatt and Sam pups it wont be long until that is done.

Not a thing to fight about. Just trying to understand you wanting to argue about a thread that was old in the first place and then agreeing with me. As Neil says, your logic escapes me. But think what you want as that is your right. Not sure this up to date but probably close enough, DC/AFC/3x NSTRA CH Gamble's Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX NAVHDA UT Prize II, RU 2008 NAGDC

By the way, Ryan, I believe you are the one disagreeing with my opinion. It is hard to troll for a fight when you weren't here when that thread was active.

Neil wrote:

RyanDoolittle wrote:If you werent too busy trolling for a fight you would see I say that in my last post in this thread.

The best argument you could make for Fritz is his progeny has run and placed on the National Level. I do not believe a Sam or Wyatt pup has done that yet. However their win records are better than Fritz's so if either one of those 2 dogs cant pass on more to their pups than Fritz dogs then Fitz would be the better one. However looking at Wyatt and Sam pups it wont be long until that is done.

The logic behind that statement escapes me. Potential is not production.

The thread title was the Best Dual champions. Fritz's sons have surpassed his accomplishments making them better. Time will tell what his progeny does bust as for current dogs the sons have him beat. Which is what a sire should do, throw better dogs than himself.

ezzy333 wrote:

RyanDoolittle wrote:If you werent too busy trolling for a fight you would see I say that in my last post in this thread.

The best argument you could make for Fritz is his progeny has run and placed on the National Level. I do not believe a Sam or Wyatt pup has done that yet. However their win records are better than Fritz's so if either one of those 2 dogs cant pass on more to their pups than Fritz dogs then Fitz would be the better one. However looking at Wyatt and Sam pups it wont be long until that is done.

Not a thing to fight about. Just trying to understand you wanting to argue about a thread that was old in the first place and then agreeing with me. As Neil says, your logic escapes me. But think what you want as that is your right. Not sure this up to date but probably close enough, DC/AFC/3x NSTRA CH Gamble's Odyssey Fritz MH RD VCX NAVHDA UT Prize II, RU 2008 NAGDC

By the way, Ryan, I believe you are the one disagreeing with my opinion. It is hard to troll for a fight when you weren't here when that thread was active.

When hattrick made the post on Jan 6 it brought the thread up, which is why I thought it was current. My appologies.


Also I understood this dog had the claim for the most titles.
http://www.prairiegspointers.com/Trekker.html

It's not about the age of the post, your are being shown your place!!

Pack mentality.

I might be a bit biased
VC,BIS,MBISS, GCH,DC,AFC, Honey Run's Spittin' Image CD MH RDX VCX
2013 #8 amateur gun dog
3 time top 25 show dog
2008 #11
2013 national specialty Select bitch 50th anniversary largest nationals ever
100% amateur owner trained and handled to ALL titles.

Adam, that is a DC to be proud of!

Duals that can do both, and compete at the highest levels of both are to be highly commended.

They are far and few between, whether by owners wants and needs, or the limitations of the dog....but those that can and do... Bravo!

fuzznut wrote:Adam, that is a DC to be proud of!

Duals that can do both, and compete at the highest levels of both are to be highly commended.

They are far and few between, whether by owners wants and needs, or the limitations of the dog....but those that can and do... Bravo!

Well said

fuzznut wrote:Adam, that is a DC to be proud of!

Duals that can do both, and compete at the highest levels of both are to be highly commended.

They are far and few between, whether by owners wants and needs, or the limitations of the dog....but those that can and do... Bravo!

How many have done that? Placed BOB in a National Specialty and won in a Breed National Championship? The ones that have were they Gun Dogs, Shooting Dogs, or All-Age dogs.

they are out there, if you are interested,, you will find out who they are.
Most of us who own those dogs just are not into the bragging.... we know who they are, what they did, and what they produced.

RyanDoolittle wrote:

fuzznut wrote:Adam, that is a DC to be proud of!

Duals that can do both, and compete at the highest levels of both are to be highly commended.

They are far and few between, whether by owners wants and needs, or the limitations of the dog....but those that can and do... Bravo!

How many have done that? Placed BOB in a National Specialty and won in a Breed National Championship? The ones that have were they Gun Dogs, Shooting Dogs, or All-Age dogs.

I hate to sound redundant but the Britts did it with ........
Pacolet Cheyenne Sam won the National Specialty Show in 1970, the National Championship in 1971 and an
American Field three-hour Endurance Championship. His production record puts him near the top for the
breed. (read competing against long tails)

I think Brittany have the most of any breed.


When was the last time any dog has done both. Places in a National specialty and won a National Championship.

I am going to say its been a while, the happy medium gets stretched thinner and thinner.

fuzznut wrote:they are out there, if you are interested,, you will find out who they are.
Most of us who own those dogs just are not into the bragging.... we know who they are, what they did, and what they produced.

Im going to go out on a limb and say you dont know.

The best of the dual dogs are to be commended, no doubt. I still don't like the word "best"...that's a personal choice.

Too bad some of these versatiles have turned their backs on the rest of the work. I'm not sure the retrieving, waterwork, tracking, etc have profited through the quest for making beautiful bird dogs.
Would like to have known more than run and point....and looks pretty.

JKP wrote:The best of the dual dogs are to be commended, no doubt. I still don't like the word "best"...that's a personal choice.

Too bad some of these versatiles have turned their backs on the rest of the work. I'm not sure the retrieving, waterwork, tracking, etc have profited through the quest for making beautiful bird dogs.
Would like to have known more than run and point....and looks pretty.

Can't argue with you but the nice thing is nobody limits you on what you want. Most can be achieved but you will have to work for it.

JKP wrote:The best of the dual dogs are to be commended, no doubt. I still don't like the word "best"...that's a personal choice.

Too bad some of these versatiles have turned their backs on the rest of the work. I'm not sure the retrieving, waterwork, tracking, etc have profited through the quest for making beautiful bird dogs.
Would like to have known more than run and point....and looks pretty.

Versatiles were developed in a time and in countries where most the dogs were used to put food on the table for a family that couldnt afford more than one or 2 dogs. In North America we have gone to a more specialized dog for the hunting here. I cant say I have ever been out bird hunting and needed to shoot a boar or bear. Any good dog should be able to retrieve down game whether it be goose, duck,quail or pheasant.

I thought I deleted my post above, but obviously it didn't go away. After I posted it, realized how bad it sounded.

The point I guess I was trying to make is..... each breed looks at its Duals differently. Some breeds, clubs and individuals give a DC high regard. In others, they are looked at as so so dogs, no matter what they have done or won. If you aren't the winner of a huge National Championship, or compete in AF type events and win.... nothing the Duals do will impress them.

There are highly accomplished Dual Champions out there, BIS/Nat Champs/Specialty winners etc, but each of us will look at accomplishments with our own set of rose colored glasses. Each of us has our own set of criteria when we are looking at dogs.

In my breed, GWP's, our Duals win our National Championships on a regular basis, its not an unusual occurrence. Our club holds the DC in high regard and rewards their owners and breeders with a very nice award at the end of the year. We also have a special competition/showcase that we hold in conjunction with our Nationals every year. The All Star Invitational. If interested, you can read about it here- http://www.gwpca.com/NAllStar.html.

So to your original question- which are the best Duals out there.... each of us will have very different answers I think. I had several Duals that I think were pretty dang good- BISS/DC/AFC/MH's that placed around the country and in our National Championships every time they were entered. And they went on to become top producers in our breed. Were they the best? In my eyes, yes they were. Others may not agree.

GunDogAdventures wrote:I read through some older posts about Dual Champions, including some by those that felt that those dogs can't REALLY be good at either. So, those of you that have seen DCs run in field trials. Which would you categorize as the best ones a) In the past b) Currently.

I cannot directly answer your question with names of dogs. However, I think the question needs to be modified in some way.

What is "best" for an AF All Age or horseback Open Shooting Dog competitor may be far, far different than what is best for an AKC Gundog(especially walking) or an AF or USCSDA walking shooting dog competitor. What is "best" for a coverdog competitor may be far, far different than what is best for an AKC ALL AGE competitor.

There is an expression: "horses for courses" which I think is appropriate here.

I run FDSB pointers, and in the AF there is no conformation competition...so there is no such thing as a "dual" dog for my guys. But I have run in enough AKC trials to know that there are some very nice dogs out there and that some of them have conformation championships. As Fuzznut will probably remember , I got beat by one of those she ran in a Gundog stake...and my dog did a heck of a job. Hers just did a better job...as a gundog. That ain't the only time either.

There is a wide range of competitive arenas in field events. There are dogs that are better suited to one type of event than some others. Which is best? That very much depends on what each of us likes. A good dog is a good dog. Some do things differently. Which is best TODAY? I dunno...put 'em down and watch... they'll sort it out.

RayG

Couldn't have said it any better Ray!!

Thanks Fuzznut!Ryan I can't say I've ever need to shoot a bear or boar while out hunting but I've sure as heck shot quite a few rabbits over my dogs...

It is a loss that so many breeds have abandon the Dual Dog, the blame goes to both the Field and show people. At the first field trial in America there was a show. Mary Montose won the National Championship and took best of of Oposite Sex at Westminster a week a part. The coon dog guys have a bench show. Form must follow function, pretty is as pretty does.

Chug, (sorry I have forgotten his registered name, Ru-Gem's Touch of Bourbon, maybe), was a Dual and set Brittany records, 3x Dog of the Year, NFC, ETC. He won often at the highest level of Britt competition, amateur trained and handled.

Every breed owner should strive for the same.

PS I hate auto spell check on my Kindle, takes 3x as long to type.

Neil wrote:It is a loss that so many breeds have abandon the Dual Dog, the blame goes to both the Field and show people. At the first field trial in America there was a show. Mary Montose won the National Championship and took best of of Oposite Sex at Westminster a week a part. The coon dog guys have a bench show. Form must follow function, pretty is as pretty does.

Chug, (sorry I have forgotten his registered name, Ru-Gem's Touch of Bourbon, maybe), was a Dual and set Brittany records, 3x Dog of the Year, NFC, ETC. He won often at the highest level of Britt competition, amateur trained and handled.

Every breed owner should strive for the same.

PS I hate auto spell check on my Kindle, takes 3x as long to type.

That wouldnt work. The type of dog that is required to hunt Florida would be different than the type to hunt new hamshire and both those are different than the type of dog required to hunt the prairies. So what dog has the proper conformation?

I gaurentee you bring the GSP that won at westminster out here and the dog wouldnt make the cut. On the flip side you bring that big running prairie dog to westminster and he wouldnt get a 2nd look.

A person needs to decide what type of dog suits his hunting style and suits his eye. I wouldnt buy a corvette and expect it to do what my pick up does.

I don't know about duals but the Wimies have been dissed for many years as having the hunt bred out of them but I got a education last year- a FT guy out of Kingman AZ ran his string of Wimies at a trial in Paulden, AZ and those dogs knocked my socks off! In my opinion the Wimie lives!!

Ryan,

That has not been my experience at all. My dogs have won from Canada to Arizona, and from Florida to Maine, and nearly ever state in between. Proper conformation is universal.

You are right about the Field dogs not getting a fair look at Westminster, but that is the fault of the uneducated judges.

Read the breed standard of any sporting dog, say the English setter, and that dog should win anywhere.

But let me say again, equal blame goes to the Fieldeld folks.

You are correct, just as much blame in the field as the show.

However to look at it another way and what I was trying to say earlier is how many of these Dual Dogs are Gun Dogs and how many are Shooting or AA dogs. How many are AKC AA vs AF AA Duals.

What I am trying to say is the more the dog is being bred for performance the farther away from breed standard we get no matter the breed. It seems few, very few are true Dual dogs, dogs that can win at the national level in show and field. Doesnt matter if its a top winning show dog or top winning field dog.

However these are hunting dogs bred for huting. All show and no go is doing alot more harm than any trial is.

RyanDoolittle wrote:You are correct, just as much blame in the field as the show.

However to look at it another way and what I was trying to say earlier is how many of these Dual Dogs are Gun Dogs and how many are Shooting or AA dogs. How many are AKC AA vs AF AA Duals.

What I am trying to say is the more the dog is being bred for performance the farther away from breed standard we get no matter the breed. It seems few, very few are true Dual dogs, dogs that can win at the national level in show and field. Doesnt matter if its a top winning show dog or top winning field dog.

However these are hunting dogs bred for huting. All show and no go is doing alot more harm than any trial is.

This is just simply not the case. Correct conformation works in the ring or in the field. It is not that there are not dogs who are capable of doing both at a high level. In the GSP not many people who compete at the national level in either field or ring have the interest or time it takes to compete in both in both events. Many trial dogs do not have the conformation to compete in the ring, that is more because show ring conformation is not a major condition for most trial breeders. But, there are many trial dogs with very good show ring conformation. All show does not rule out go, there are many show ring dogs who given the opportunity can perform at very high levels and vice versa. It is very difficult to do both...................Cj

cjhills wrote:

RyanDoolittle wrote:You are correct, just as much blame in the field as the show.

However to look at it another way and what I was trying to say earlier is how many of these Dual Dogs are Gun Dogs and how many are Shooting or AA dogs. How many are AKC AA vs AF AA Duals.

What I am trying to say is the more the dog is being bred for performance the farther away from breed standard we get no matter the breed. It seems few, very few are true Dual dogs, dogs that can win at the national level in show and field. Doesnt matter if its a top winning show dog or top winning field dog.

However these are hunting dogs bred for huting. All show and no go is doing alot more harm than any trial is.

This is just simply not the case. Correct conformation works in the ring or in the field. It is not that there are not dogs who are capable of doing both at a high level. In the GSP not many people who compete at the national level in either field or ring have the interest or time it takes to compete in both in both events. Many trial dogs do not have the conformation to compete in the ring, that is more because show ring conformation is not a major condition for most trial breeders. But, there are many trial dogs with very good show ring conformation. All show does not rule out go, there are many show ring dogs who given the opportunity can perform at very high levels and vice versa. It is very difficult to do both...................Cj

Look at old sporting prints of pointers and setters. The dogs of 100 years ago are very similar to modern field- bred dogs. But they have little resemblance to what is winning on the bench. Which group of dogs has 'correct' conformation?