Breaking on Flush?

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Onk
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Breaking on Flush?

Post by Onk » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:02 pm

Just read in another post issues with a dog breaking during the flush and didn't want to hi-jack his post with my question. I'm 50 years old and as far back as I can remember all our dogs have broke on the flush. Am I the only one like this? I have always hunted with very responsible people and the dogs have never been close enough to the birds to be an issue, we never shot low flying birds that could be dog level anyway.

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Breaking on Flush?

Post by Luminary Setters » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:01 pm

I think most of the safety concerns resolve around poor flying pen raised birds.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:50 pm

I prefer steady to flush as, to me, it instills and enforces honesty with birds....aloing with a measure of safety from the predicatble response.
I do prefer a pup breaking at the shot.
Each works for me with woods or shortgrasss gamebirds but could well vary with any other combination of in-field particulars from number of shooters, bird quality, hunter experience and on and on.
Seldom does one man's preference serve everyone.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by bonasa » Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:07 pm

Personal preference, however I enjoy seeing my dogs in the grouse/woodcock woods steady to wing and shot retrieving the birds that are in the thick stuff, across creeks or wing tipped...I'll pick up the easy marks that I see go down.

Out of curiosity what is the advantage of breaking on the flush verses the shot?

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:33 pm

Onk wrote:Just read in another post issues with a dog breaking during the flush and didn't want to hi-jack his post with my question. I'm 50 years old and as far back as I can remember all our dogs have broke on the flush. Am I the only one like this? I have always hunted with very responsible people and the dogs have never been close enough to the birds to be an issue, we never shot low flying birds that could be dog level anyway.


My experience too.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Onk » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:56 pm

bonasa wrote:Personal preference, however I enjoy seeing my dogs in the grouse/woodcock woods steady to wing and shot retrieving the birds that are in the thick stuff, across creeks or wing tipped...I'll pick up the easy marks that I see go down.

Out of curiosity what is the advantage of breaking on the flush verses the shot?


No advantage that I know of, it's just the way our dogs have always been.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by birdogg42 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:01 pm

My dogs break at the flush and I have no problems retrieving birds. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong way but it works for me. If it works for you then why change?

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:17 pm

I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by 41magsnub » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:59 am

gonehuntin' wrote:I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.
I agree with this. The quicker the dog is on a wounded fast running bird the better.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:49 am

Like I have said before, like them to break when hunting single birds but nice to have them steady on coveys. So it is up to you which applies more often and train accordingly.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:59 am

bonasa wrote: Out of curiosity what is the advantage of breaking on the flush verses the shot?
Some may not be as good a shot in every occasion >? :lol:
I would rather have them steady to both flush and shot .I have a double barrel for another reason 'beside' being perhaps a poor shot on the first barrel, I like the opportunity to increase the bag if another gets up and possibly flighting in the other direction. Since I'm the conductor of this team ,I like to run the show and tell the dog which one it can collect first.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ESS13 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:33 pm

steady to wing and shot. If you want your dog to break on the shot because you retrieve more birds that way then you aren't doing your job as the shooter. I would say its definitely safer and gentlemen like in the field. If you have to pass up a low flying bird because your dog isn't steady to wing and shot that would really burn me up. Im not putting too many stocked birds into the air when I go out. I need every bird to be a shooter. I would compare steady to wing and shot to being able to walk on lead or heel. You don't know how valuable it is until you are around a dog that is not capable of doing so......its simply a matter of field manners.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by deseeker » Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:00 pm

41magsnub wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.
I agree with this. The quicker the dog is on a wounded fast running bird the better.
X10 on pheasants

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by 41magsnub » Wed Dec 24, 2014 1:49 pm

ESS13 wrote:steady to wing and shot. If you want your dog to break on the shot because you retrieve more birds that way then you aren't doing your job as the shooter. I would say its definitely safer and gentlemen like in the field. If you have to pass up a low flying bird because your dog isn't steady to wing and shot that would really burn me up. Im not putting too many stocked birds into the air when I go out. I need every bird to be a shooter. I would compare steady to wing and shot to being able to walk on lead or heel. You don't know how valuable it is until you are around a dog that is not capable of doing so......its simply a matter of field manners.
You never miss or hunt with folks new to the sport?

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Retiredbirddogman » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:11 pm

I let my dog break on the shot now. Steadiness during flush sure pays off when you have hens get up, your dog doesn't chase and then the late Rooster gets up. I have also broke my dogs to wing / shot /kill and found that to be nice as well. If you then let them break at shot during hunting season it is not hard to bring them back if you so desire. I don't think there is one right answer, only what is right for you. Have fun.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:00 pm

deseeker wrote:
41magsnub wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.
I agree with this. The quicker the dog is on a wounded fast running bird the better.
X10 on pheasants
x11..........

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by polmaise » Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:30 pm

41magsnub wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.
I agree with this. The quicker the dog is on a wounded fast running bird the better.
Wounded game is wounded game,pheasant ,rabbit or grouse for that matter should not have an advantage either way.
The more a dog is exposed to this on a regular basis without a release command then the dog is deciding the next one :wink:
......
If the game is wounded and marked at the fall ! any good dog will find it :) ..A good handler will guide the dog to that fall if the dog doesn't mark it.
Handlers that accept anything less may not want to train for this or perhaps have never reached that level or never will.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ESS13 » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:20 pm

41magsnub wrote:
ESS13 wrote:steady to wing and shot. If you want your dog to break on the shot because you retrieve more birds that way then you aren't doing your job as the shooter. I would say its definitely safer and gentlemen like in the field. If you have to pass up a low flying bird because your dog isn't steady to wing and shot that would really burn me up. Im not putting too many stocked birds into the air when I go out. I need every bird to be a shooter. I would compare steady to wing and shot to being able to walk on lead or heel. You don't know how valuable it is until you are around a dog that is not capable of doing so......its simply a matter of field manners.
You never miss or hunt with folks new to the sport?

I miss a lot and I am a newbie to the sport myself. When I wound a bird and we don't get it, I try not to let any other reason let me adjust how my dog works in the field other than I need to shoot the bird since that's my job as the shooter. Unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to be on birds enough to satisfy my dog so I need to reward my dog when I can that's my job. My dog should be able to find the bird regardless of steady to shot or not. Like the other gentleman wrote, its nice to keep your dog steady to the shot so when the dog releases it doesn't put up two other birds on the retrieve while you have 3 people with their guns broke reloading and watching two birds fly away. When I bring my friend along with his ten month yellow lab you teach people new to the sport these things as field manners, which are of course by preference. You teach them to walk their dogs on lead when needed because you don't want to upset others in the field or their dogs. I tell my friend that I don't want my dog to break on the shot and end up chasing that second hen over to the next county. I also teach other guys that us humans are the weakest links in the equation of bird hunting and us humans will find any excuse to make a scenario logical instead of saying man I gotta shoot that bird next time. Before hunting your dog we all better look good and hard at ourselves before anything else because a lot of the time we are the root of all problems.

Or look at the gent that started this thread. A guy who hunted all his life with his dogs a certain way not steady and did very well I am certain. I am not knocking anyone a bit because all I know is what I have experienced. I am sure that gent has shot more birds and had more fun than I ever had so I doubt there is a right answer to this. However you want it, that's the way you should do it. I bet you a lot of money his hunting stories are way better than mine. That's ok, that's how he wanted to do it.

Why people get upset about a response on a public forum I still haven't figured out yet.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:37 pm

polmaise wrote:
41magsnub wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.
I agree with this. The quicker the dog is on a wounded fast running bird the better.
Wounded game is wounded game,pheasant ,rabbit or grouse for that matter should not have an advantage either way.
The more a dog is exposed to this on a regular basis without a release command then the dog is deciding the next one :wink:
......
If the game is wounded and marked at the fall ! any good dog will find it :) ..A good handler will guide the dog to that fall if the dog doesn't mark it.
Handlers that accept anything less may not want to train for this or perhaps have never reached that level or never will.
Turning a mark into a blind is counterproductive. As to training, its a step beyond the sit whistle and a step below roll over (and about as useful), a cheap parlor trick if that's your thing. :D

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by polmaise » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:43 pm

nikegundog wrote: Turning a mark into a blind is counterproductive. As to training, its a step beyond the sit whistle and a step below roll over (and about as useful), a cheap parlor trick if that's your thing. :D
Let me have the key to your medicine cabinet when you are finished with it :lol:
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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:47 pm

polmaise wrote:
nikegundog wrote: Turning a mark into a blind is counterproductive. As to training, its a step beyond the sit whistle and a step below roll over (and about as useful), a cheap parlor trick if that's your thing. :D
Let me have the key to your medicine cabinet when you are finished with it :lol:
Merry Christmas
Merry Christmas

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:45 am

polmaise wrote:
41magsnub wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I don't think it an advantage on grouse or woodcock, but I feel it is a huge advantage on pheasant. I believe more birds are recovered the quicker the dog is on them.
I agree with this. The quicker the dog is on a wounded fast running bird the better.
Wounded game is wounded game,pheasant ,rabbit or grouse for that matter should not have an advantage either way.
The more a dog is exposed to this on a regular basis without a release command then the dog is deciding the next one :wink:
......
If the game is wounded and marked at the fall ! any good dog will find it :) ..A good handler will guide the dog to that fall if the dog doesn't mark it.
Handlers that accept anything less may not want to train for this or perhaps have never reached that level or never will.
You're thinking in terms of retriever marking games. Where we hunt pheasant, the dog is in such high cover, (cattail, corn, crp) that it can't see the flush let alone the fall. The only visual they have is the bird in the air, not the fall. The closer they are to the bird the better the mark.

A sitting or still dog always marks better than a running dog; IF tlhey can see the bird.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:38 am

gonehuntin' wrote: You're thinking in terms of retriever marking games. Where we hunt pheasant, the dog is in such high cover, (cattail, corn, crp) that it can't see the flush let alone the fall. The only visual they have is the bird in the air, not the fall. The closer they are to the bird the better the mark.

A sitting or still dog always marks better than a running dog; IF tlhey can see the bird.
I was thinking from a shooters and dog handlers terms. Trying to give an objective view regarding 'Breaking on flush'
polmaise wrote:A good handler will guide the dog to that fall if the dog doesn't mark it.
One thing I do agree with above !You are absolutely correct ,A sitting or still dog does always mark better than one that is running , that is why I emphasise 'Stop' to both shot and 'Flush' :wink: ..just to give the dog a chance buddy :)

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Onk » Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:24 am

Since I started this post let me just add. Most the adults we hunted with as kids didn't do much more training than the ole wing and fishing pole. My Dad my friends Dads were all bird hunters back in the day, I don't think there was much training beyond the basics, (point, fetch, here, load and sit). I don't think our Dads ever heard of field trials or hunt test. So today we as friends still hunt together in the same way we learned from our Dads back in the day, of course I think my dog now would have put all my Dads dogs to shame except maybe one I can think of. I guess the answer to the question is, it depends on how you were taught and there is really no right or wrong.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:33 am

Onk wrote:Since I started this post let me just add. ...... I guess the answer to the question is, it depends on how you were taught and there is really no right or wrong.
I would say that there is also no one way that works for all time, as we all change....with conditions, realities, what satisfies and is well apart from past mentor methods.

I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to seperate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:25 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Onk wrote:Since I started this post let me just add. ...... I guess the answer to the question is, it depends on how you were taught and there is really no right or wrong.
I would say that there is also no one way that works for all time, as we all change....with conditions, realities, what satisfies and is well apart from past mentor methods.

I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to seperate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.

I am PROUD to be a bird hunter with bird dogs. I do other things with my dogs, but nothing is more about just me and the dogs than hunting.

RayG

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by millerms06 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:55 pm

Breaking on the flush is an important factor to eliminate if you want to do the higher levels within NAVHDA or AKC trials/hunt tests. You will not be successful at the higher levels of those two organizations with a dog that breaks on the flush.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:35 pm

millerms06 wrote:Breaking on the flush is an important factor to eliminate if you want to do the higher levels within NAVHDA or AKC trials/hunt tests. You will not be successful at the higher levels of those two organizations with a dog that breaks on the flush.

You can add AF trials as well,... but if you have no interest in pursuing those activities... getting a dog steady to wing and shot brings relatively little added value in the field to a dog that breaks at flush.

Been down this road on other boards. Hunt over what you like. Allow others to do the same.

Steady to wing and shot has certain few scenarios where it is very desirable in the field. In mountainous terrain it can be a lifesaver. On pheasant flushes it can avoid bumping a sitting bird out of range. That is about it. Most of the time it is almost completely unnecessary for the hunter and in some instances... as previously noted... it can be a drawback.

Done.

RayG

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:58 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Most of the time it is almost completely unnecessary for the hunter and in some instances... as previously noted... it can be a drawback.

Done.

RayG
Especially when it's the dogs life :wink:
Unfortunately some (especially ME) Don't have the big ole rolling outback ! If that bird flushes and fido is off chasing that lone ranger then I don't have a dog no more :lol:
Now we are Done :mrgreen:

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:13 pm

polmaise wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: Most of the time it is almost completely unnecessary for the hunter and in some instances... as previously noted... it can be a drawback.

Done.

RayG
Especially when it's the dogs life :wink:
Unfortunately some (especially ME) Don't have the big ole rolling outback ! If that bird flushes and fido is off chasing that lone ranger then I don't have a dog no more :lol:
Now we are Done :mrgreen:
And there you have it folks. The last word... a blatant appeal to emotion. Must be a Democrat. :roll: :roll: :P

RayG

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:23 pm

And if you shoot before that bird is well above the horizon whether the dog is chasing or not you should be done since there are possibly other people around or right over the hill.

Now I am done.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by deseeker » Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:01 pm

millerms06 wrote:Breaking on the flush is an important factor to eliminate if you want to do the higher levels within NAVHDA or AKC trials/hunt tests. You will not be successful at the higher levels of those two organizations with a dog that breaks on the flush.
I have had 3 AKC master hunters and an AKC FC/AFC that I let break on the rooster flush in high cover. It would take me about 2 quail after season to get them back to steady to flush/shot/ fall. It wasn't that big a deal to get them tuned back up :roll: I would just as soon have them right on top of the bird when it came down, then spending 10 min, 15 min or longer doing a 200 yard track on a running pheasant. Just My Opinion and it works for me. Every body should be able to hunt their dog, however they like :D

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by millerms06 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:52 am

Not disagreeing with anyone hunting how they want with their dog. Not saying its important to have a dog so steady while hunting either, just important when it comes to testing and trialing. I am sorry if some had gotten offended or felt compelled with bringing up how long it takes them to change their dogs attitudes with the situation.

Since this thread is asking opinions about the importance of a dog breaking or not, allow myself to elaborate further so you understand my position in a hunting situation. My take on a dog having to track a pheasant versus let them break so they get on the pheasant right away? Let them track after you release them because it involves more components of what makes a dog a bird dog. If retrieving distance is a concern, I will walk to shorten the retrieving distance while monitoring the dogs' progress as they travel to where I marked the bird.

A dog can comply to a handler releasing them, however long you want them to wait after the shot. It is either letting them listen to you, just like every other command they have to comply with, or letting them do what they want. I would like to enstill the first choice with my dogs, whether they obtain higher status or not and I try my best to get the point across with them.

I also handle some of my dogs for youth hunters every year and I can't have the dogs break.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:40 am

millerms06 wrote:Not disagreeing with anyone hunting how they want with their dog. Not saying its important to have a dog so steady while hunting either, just important when it comes to testing and trialing. I am sorry if some had gotten offended or felt compelled with bringing up how long it takes them to change their dogs attitudes with the situation.

Since this thread is asking opinions about the importance of a dog breaking or not, allow myself to elaborate further so you understand my position in a hunting situation. My take on a dog having to track a pheasant versus let them break so they get on the pheasant right away? Let them track after you release them because it involves more components of what makes a dog a bird dog. If retrieving distance is a concern, I will walk to shorten the retrieving distance while monitoring the dogs' progress as they travel to where I marked the bird.

A dog can comply to a handler releasing them, however long you want them to wait after the shot. It is either letting them listen to you, just like every other command they have to comply with, or letting them do what they want. I would like to enstill the first choice with my dogs, whether they obtain higher status or not and I try my best to get the point across with them.

I also handle some of my dogs for youth hunters every year and I can't have the dogs break.
Actually yes you can. Well... I can in any case.

I did a couple of youth hunts with dogs that broke at flush. I found that the boys and girls who I was working with were some of the most safety minded hunters I ever had the pleasure of sharing the field. The fact that most were straight out of the hunter safety course, and one of their parents was there watching, just might have had something to do with it...but it was a pleasure.

We all can make a case for doing things the way we want. It is sometimes a lot harder to see the other person's side of things, especially when their opinion is different from ours. At least it is for me.

RayG

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by millerms06 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:11 am

RayGubernat wrote:
millerms06 wrote:Not disagreeing with anyone hunting how they want with their dog. Not saying its important to have a dog so steady while hunting either, just important when it comes to testing and trialing. I am sorry if some had gotten offended or felt compelled with bringing up how long it takes them to change their dogs attitudes with the situation.

Since this thread is asking opinions about the importance of a dog breaking or not, allow myself to elaborate further so you understand my position in a hunting situation. My take on a dog having to track a pheasant versus let them break so they get on the pheasant right away? Let them track after you release them because it involves more components of what makes a dog a bird dog. If retrieving distance is a concern, I will walk to shorten the retrieving distance while monitoring the dogs' progress as they travel to where I marked the bird.

A dog can comply to a handler releasing them, however long you want them to wait after the shot. It is either letting them listen to you, just like every other command they have to comply with, or letting them do what they want. I would like to enstill the first choice with my dogs, whether they obtain higher status or not and I try my best to get the point across with them.

I also handle some of my dogs for youth hunters every year and I can't have the dogs break.
Actually yes you can. Well... I can in any case.
:D
I did a couple of youth hunts with dogs that broke at flush. I found that the boys and girls who I was working with were some of the most safety minded hunters I ever had the pleasure of sharing the field. The fact that most were straight out of the hunter safety course, and one of their parents was there watching, just might have had something to do with it...but it was a pleasure.

We all can make a case for doing things the way we want. It is sometimes a lot harder to see the other person's side of things, especially when their opinion is different from ours. At least it is for me.

RayG

We have the same experiences. It is more successful to not have a dog break though when handling a youth hunt, but anything can happen and we have had some kids that show outstanding restraint too. I enjoy doing it more than thinking it is work. Sometimes I drive close to two hours for a few of them for a whole weekend. They are a blast to be apart of.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Soarer31 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:40 am

Let's face it , it's a lot harder in training to get to the level of steady to flush shot and fall, and if you get there it's a continues effort to keep the dog polished at that level, once you let down the dog will start to break eventually
So the difference is in the training or how good is the trainers ability , it seperates the men from the boys :D

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:15 am

Soarer31 wrote:Let's face it , it's a lot harder in training to get to the level of steady to flush shot and fall, and if you get there it's a continues effort to keep the dog polished at that level, once you let down the dog will start to break eventually
So the difference is in the training or how good is the trainers ability , it seperates the men from the boys :D
Big conclusion to draw. It's what each person wants, not what each person can do. Not much of a job to steady a dog and keep it steady.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:11 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Soarer31 wrote:Let's face it , it's a lot harder in training to get to the level of steady to flush shot and fall, and if you get there it's a continues effort to keep the dog polished at that level, once you let down the dog will start to break eventually
So the difference is in the training or how good is the trainers ability , it seperates the men from the boys :D
Big conclusion to draw. It's what each person wants, not what each person can do. Not much of a job to steady a dog and keep it steady.
Precisely!

Hunting with a steady dog, very often, has waaaaaay more to do with the ego of the owner than it does the putting of game in the bag.

If you want to hunt over a dog that is steady to wing and shot...God bless. If you don't...God bless.

I will say this...if you have your dog steady to wing and shot AND insist that all others should as well...then you should really put your money where your mouth is. You should enter and win a few field trials with your dog before you run off at the mouth with how good you are as a trainer and how good your dog is.

Talk is cheap, especially on the internet...whiskey costs money. Putting your dog in competition is very often a HUMBLING and chastening experience. You very quickly realize how good you and your dog ... AIN'T.

RayG

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by cjhills » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:22 am

RayGubernat wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Soarer31 wrote:Let's face it , it's a lot harder in training to get to the level of steady to flush shot and fall, and if you get there it's a continues effort to keep the dog polished at that level, once you let down the dog will start to break eventually
So the difference is in the training or how good is the trainers ability , it seperates the men from the boys :D
Big conclusion to draw. It's what each person wants, not what each person can do. Not much of a job to steady a dog and keep it steady.
Precisely!

Hunting with a steady dog, very often, has waaaaaay more to do with the ego of the owner than it does the putting of game in the bag.

If you want to hunt over a dog that is steady to wing and shot...God bless. If you don't...God bless.

I will say this...if you have your dog steady to wing and shot AND insist that all others should as well...then you should really put your money where your mouth is. You should enter and win a few field trials with your dog before you run off at the mouth with how good you are as a trainer and how good your dog is.

Talk is cheap, especially on the internet...whiskey costs money. Putting your dog in competition is very often a HUMBLING and chastening experience. You very quickly realize how good you and your dog ... AIN'T.

RayG
I have a bit of a problem with this post. I have trained and seen many dogs that are steady to wing ,shot and fall. Most would not place in a trial. many are very good dogs and any real hunter would be happy to hunt over them. I prefer to hunt with a dog that is steady and find it quite easy to train. Especially if the dog never has to retrieve. It ain't rocket science. I have no interest in winning a field trial, mostly because I can not deal with the shouting and whistle blowing. I fail to see where putting your dog in competition or paying somebody to tell you if it is a good has a whole lot to do with anything.
I also did not see where anybody was shooting their mouth off and telling how good they are. Mostly just stating their preference. Incidentally I have had some very good times hunting with dogs that break on the flush or even flush on command. Thanks.......................Cj

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:47 am

So what is the problem you speak of? Seems you just said what the post you are criticizing says.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:57 pm

[quote="cjhills]

RayG[/quote]
I have a bit of a problem with this post. I have trained and seen many dogs that are steady to wing ,shot and fall. Most would not place in a trial. many are very good dogs and any real hunter would be happy to hunt over them. I prefer to hunt with a dog that is steady and find it quite easy to train. Especially if the dog never has to retrieve. It ain't rocket science. I have no interest in winning a field trial, mostly because I can not deal with the shouting and whistle blowing. I fail to see where putting your dog in competition or paying somebody to tell you if it is a good has a whole lot to do with anything.
I also did not see where anybody was shooting their mouth off and telling how good they are. Mostly just stating their preference. Incidentally I have had some very good times hunting with dogs that break on the flush or even flush on command. Thanks.......................Cj[/quote]

cj -

You missed a part of my post. I have no problem with someone hunting over a steady dog. I have no problem with someone hunting over a staunch dog. Heck I have no problem with someone hunting over a Lhasa Apso or longhaired Chihuahua. Have at it and have fun. steady dog

What I DO have a problem with is how some folks get up on their high horse and start telling or inferring that folks who don't do what they do are somehow lesser sportsmen and women or that their dogs are somehow lesser dogs, because they are not fully trained to be steady. That is Bullsh!t...self serving, self aggrandizing, supercilious Bullsh!t.

You want steady dogs to hunt over. Terrific. You should enjoy your sport as you wish. I did not see where you said anything dismissive, derogatory or demeaning about someone who chose to hunt behind a less highly trained dog, so we are absolutely on the same page.

The reason I said what I said about trials is because someone who would say or infer that they are better sportsmen or that their dogs are better bird dogs...FOR ANY REASON...had better be ready to back that up, 'cause they are gonna get called on it.

You said it... it ain't no big trick to get a dog steady to wing and shot...IF THAT IS WHAT YOU PREFER. Absolutely correct. But if that ain't what you prefer, that is OK too.

RayG

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ESS13 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:05 pm

Onk wrote:Since I started this post let me just add. Most the adults we hunted with as kids didn't do much more training than the ole wing and fishing pole. My Dad my friends Dads were all bird hunters back in the day, I don't think there was much training beyond the basics, (point, fetch, here, load and sit). I don't think our Dads ever heard of field trials or hunt test. So today we as friends still hunt together in the same way we learned from our Dads back in the day, of course I think my dog now would have put all my Dads dogs to shame except maybe one I can think of. I guess the answer to the question is, it depends on how you were taught and there is really no right or wrong.
I grew up with the same experience. Oddly enough I got hooked up with a trainer that made yielding to wing and shot a big deal when I bought my first dog later in life. I talk about it all the time with my father and certainly there is no right or wrong way. Plus my fathers friends dogs have put up 10x's more birds than my dog has simply because of the fact that hunting is their life. I wish I could retire and hunt all hours of every day too.

I love the discussion here. The best thread I have read thus far. This topic is very political and can easily start debate. The best part, you can have outstanding results with any way you want to do it.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ESS13 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:30 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Soarer31 wrote:Let's face it , it's a lot harder in training to get to the level of steady to flush shot and fall, and if you get there it's a continues effort to keep the dog polished at that level, once you let down the dog will start to break eventually
So the difference is in the training or how good is the trainers ability , it seperates the men from the boys :D
Big conclusion to draw. It's what each person wants, not what each person can do. Not much of a job to steady a dog and keep it steady.
Precisely!

Hunting with a steady dog, very often, has waaaaaay more to do with the ego of the owner than it does the putting of game in the bag.

If you want to hunt over a dog that is steady to wing and shot...God bless. If you don't...God bless.

I will say this...if you have your dog steady to wing and shot AND insist that all others should as well...then you should really put your money where your mouth is. You should enter and win a few field trials with your dog before you run off at the mouth with how good you are as a trainer and how good your dog is.

Talk is cheap, especially on the internet...whiskey costs money. Putting your dog in competition is very often a HUMBLING and chastening experience. You very quickly realize how good you and your dog ... AIN'T.

RayG

I agree that competitions are humbling. Cool to go and simply experience and to be humbled. I disagree that winning a field trial makes you a better handler or means you have a better dog. The scenario a field trial presents to the dog and handler is non typical of what you find in the field. Not to say I am good or my dog is, I am saying that winning a field trial means you're good at winning field trials.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Sharon » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:05 pm

"I disagree that winning a field trial makes you a better handler or means you have a better dog. The scenario a field trial presents to the dog and handler is non typical of what you find in the field. " quote Ray

The only difference is that the birds aren't wild - which I agree is a big difference.:)

You are the best handler and have the best dog ....... that day only , under that judge, in that venue. :)

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by oldbeek » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:50 pm

I had a gsp that would leap up on flush. He was the smartest bird dog ever and when he developed this habit, I didn't correct it. He got shot bad at age 7 and was laid up the whole season but miraculously survived to hunt 4 more years. His son was rock solid until the bird dropped. This dog retrieved more birds than any other in our pack of 5 dogs and quicker. He just may have had a knack for marking birds but I think it is because he held and watched. This was hunting valley quail in medium to short sage brush scrub.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ESS13 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:36 pm

Sharon wrote:"I disagree that winning a field trial makes you a better handler or means you have a better dog. The scenario a field trial presents to the dog and handler is non typical of what you find in the field. " quote Ray

The only difference is that the birds aren't wild - which I agree is a big difference.:)

You are the best handler and have the best dog ....... that day only , under that judge, in that venue. :)
I have only been to one trial but they hard planted hens only in a braced scenario. Not one bird ran an inch and not one springier spaniel put its nose to the ground. Lots of speed out of the dogs and more opportunities to honor. I don't see too many scenarios like that afield though.

Even in tests i have seen a fair amount of handlers in the master look uncomfortable shouldering a gun when the bird gets up. They aren't used to carrying a gun as handlers. Not good not bad just different.

Both the trials and tests so cool and amazing to watch. I could go watch all day any breed. The people there were so nice handlers or club members u name it. Trials, tests, hunting create all different avenues for the sport. I can see how someone could appreciate any of those avenues. They all have a different twist but all are so fun.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:20 am

ESS13 wrote:
Sharon wrote:"I disagree that winning a field trial makes you a better handler or means you have a better dog. The scenario a field trial presents to the dog and handler is non typical of what you find in the field. " quote Ray

The only difference is that the birds aren't wild - which I agree is a big difference.:)

You are the best handler and have the best dog ....... that day only , under that judge, in that venue. :)
I have only been to one trial but they hard planted hens only in a braced scenario. Not one bird ran an inch and not one springier spaniel put its nose to the ground. Lots of speed out of the dogs and more opportunities to honor. I don't see too many scenarios like that afield though.

Even in tests i have seen a fair amount of handlers in the master look uncomfortable shouldering a gun when the bird gets up. They aren't used to carrying a gun as handlers. Not good not bad just different.

Both the trials and tests so cool and amazing to watch. I could go watch all day any breed. The people there were so nice handlers or club members u name it. Trials, tests, hunting create all different avenues for the sport. I can see how someone could appreciate any of those avenues. They all have a different twist but all are so fun.
Exactly!!!!!
The attitude that you need to trial your dog to prove he is a bird dog is baloney as is the attitude that you need to hunt your trial dogs to prove they are good.
Steady to shot dogs mark better and retrieve more birds than dogs who break on the flush, dogs that stop to flush retrieve more birds than dogs that chase.
It is all good, just do what you like.............................Cj

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:59 am

Nice post but the first two lines of your reply kind of fly in the face of anyone who doesn't agree with you. And then you say do what you want. My impression is that what you are saying is do what you want but just realize that my way is the best way.
The attitude that you need to trial your dog to prove he is a bird dog is baloney as is the attitude that you need to hunt your trial dogs to prove they are good.
Steady to shot dogs mark better and retrieve more birds than dogs who break on the flush, dogs that stop to flush retrieve more birds than dogs that chase.
Maybe it should read as such
The attitude that you need to trial your dog to prove he is a bird dog, or the attitude that you need to hunt your trial dogs to prove they are good I don't agree with.
And I think steady to shot dogs mark better and retrieve more birds than dogs who break on the flush, dogs that stop to flush retrieve more birds than dogs that chase but there are too many variables to say anyone method works better in all cases.

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:22 am

Whatever you like. You are the MOD.
You are right, I should have said dogs who stop to flush offer more opportunities for shots, therefor they retrieve more birds..........................Cj

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Re: Breaking on Flush?

Post by Soarer31 » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:25 am

In my experience I found geting a dog steady to FSF and keeping it there to be the most challenging part of training , about 30-40% of trialing dogs get disqualified on breaking
Our trials are held on wild birds , also the dogs are required to flush on command

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