Can someone chat with me about field trials and events?

[siker]

Sorry if this is in the wrong area, im not sure if this is related to hunting or training or where so i went the safe route and put it here. lol

Okay so you may or not know, i dont have a huntin dog just yet. My plan is to get a Black lab (color doesn't matter, i know. :p) and just do upland birds. No waterfowl. Mainly pheasants, chuckers and such.

Anyways, one of the things i keep seeing with breeders is this field trial champs that the parents, or grandparents are etc. I get its a competition, but what is it exactly, and how does one become a champion at it. Is it something that you can train for or is it to determine natural ablities?

[shags]

Being from the pointy dog world, can't give any insight into the particulars of retriever trials. But I can tell you that trials are a test of both training and natural ability. You won't win without training, and you can't train a dog to that level if it doesn't have natural ability.

[siker]

What exactly is it tho? Like being tested on hunting birds, or how well a dog points, flushes retrieves etc? From any point of view, i just never heard of it until i started educating myself on hunting dogs.

also why does having a championship in these trial make a difference when purchasing a pup. I mean I understand the genetics of the hunting bloodline, kinda is a big deal for puppies, but do breeders really charge so much more for a pup if they won these FTs? I honestly dont understand it.

[RayGubernat]

What exactly is it tho? Like being tested on hunting birds, or how well a dog points, flushes retrieves etc? From any point of view, i just never heard of it until i started educating myself on hunting dogs.

also why does having a championship in these trial make a difference when purchasing a pup. I mean I understand the genetics of the hunting bloodline, kinda is a big deal for puppies, but do breeders really charge so much more for a pup if they won these FTs? I honestly dont understand it.

A field trial or a hunting test is an exhibition, a performance. It attempts to show what the dogs being evaluated, are capable of. It does this in a competitive setting according to a prescribed format with rules and standards of performance. The higher level the test or trial, the more demanding it will be of the dogs.

The value of these tests and trials to the buying public is quite simple. A dog that has achieved a championship in a field event has demonstrated a very high level of performance in a very highly charged environment. It has shown, in public, that it can do everything that an owner of this breed of dog is likely to ask of it in the field.

It has shown this in public, in front of judges who have no financial or other interest in the dog. Soooo, the buying public is not just taking the owner's or breeder's word of how good the dog is. They are, instead, taking the word of disinterested third parties in a public venue. That can be a HUGE difference.

Think of it this way... I say my kid is pretty smart. You say your kid is pretty smart. I produce my kid's SAT scores and you produce your kid's SAT scores. Debate settled.

Now, it is quite possible that a dog, a champion even, will not breed true to type. But the fact that the dog did in fact get it done right in front of judges in a public venue is about the best we can do.

RayG

[shags]

OP,
You can read about the AKC retriever trials here...

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RFTRET.pdf

The first part is probably about paperwork and other stuff that you don't care about, but if you keep with it, you'll get to the part about dogwork. Some of it is easier to understand if you see it in person, but you'll get an idea of what is required.

Let it be said that someone could put a field championship on a goat if they stuck with it long and hard enough, but by and large the FCs are worthy dogs. if you go to the AKC website www.akc.org you can use the event search to find trials or tests in your area. Other organizations also list their events (i'm not familiar with retriever stuff, so can't help you with that). Find a trial or test, go and observe. It's about the only way for you to start to understand what these dogs can do.

[gonehuntin']

You're asking about the world I came from 30 years ago so I'll give you a greatly condensed version.
AKC Field trials pit one dog against the other. There can be only one winner. There is also 2nd, 3rd, 4th place and Juddes Award of Merit (JAM). It is the toughest of all the venues to compete in and the only one which produces the coveted FC on a dog's title. You start at the Junior level for dogs under two, progess to Qualifying until two wins are obtained then it has to run in the Open All Age and will for the rest of it's life. There is also the Amateur All Age where Pro's cannot compete.

Hunt tests test dog's against a STANDARD not another dog. It is possible for every dog that enters the test to finish it, but unlikely. You cannot become an FC in these venues. They are much more friendly to the beginning handler.

In any venue you run, the dog's must be tested equally on land and water. This is done by marked retrieves (shot birds) and blinds (where a bird is planted unseen by the dog and directed to it by whistle and hand signal.

You can go to the AKC site and download the rules for the different venues and that will give you a good idea of what they are.

[nhachman]

To respond back contents of the original post, you must also make a distinction between titles since there are Pointing Lab hunt tests and I'm sure they have someone to print those titles on their pedigrees. I bring this up because you stated you are interested in hunting upland game with your Lab, and if that is the case you may be looking at a lab bred to be a "pointing lab". Retriever trial/test titles will still have meaning for your purpose, but will not be altogether a stick to measure by since your purpose for your dog is quite different.

[Becassier]

Congratulations! It sounds like you are trying to understand how to do your homework before you jump into the world of upland hunting with a bird dog.

If I understand your question correctly; Breeders use field trails or hunt test accomplishments for one of 2 reasons. 1.) A marketing tool; or 2.) A means of truly evaluating their breeding program in an open and honest selection method.

IMO your job is to eliminate which ones are using them as a marketing tool.

Competition in the past was a simple way for breeders to maintain a selection program based on genetic science, with some luck mixed it to it. It takes years to understand, the breeders that use field trials as part of their breeding selection process, understands the genetics of each dog and the propensity for particular dogs to produce better dogs then what they are (the sire and dam). Also, they keep track of all the progeny in respects to accomplishments. More about producing generations of dogs with the right mental stability (smarts) Field Structure and temperament. Than just producing the one dog wonder that produces “nice” dogs, but can’t produce the quality in generations to follow..

Unfortunately today, field trial participation is going down; you are losing consistency within the program. People not having the resources to employ a staff to care for dogs, own property, horses, and Johnny houses and keep litters of puppies.

NASTRA (National Shoot to Retrieve Association) on a smaller scale than Field trials is successful and a great place to look for a quality bird dog. Other “test” venues such as NAVHDA, VHDF that are develop to measure an individual dog’s ability to a standard. They have a scoring system of 1-4 (NAVHDA) or 1-10 (VHDF) per task.

When looking at the pedigree’s of the parents if you see the designation of a champion, how far back is it in the pedigree? This will tell you how diluted or how pure the pedigree really is, if it’s great, great, great grandparents were champions and nothing since... Doesn’t mean you are not going to get a nice hunting dog, but it does mean that the “championship blood line” means nothing. If the breeders are not committed (participating) to field trials their claims of a championships mean NOTHING..

Just because a dog “comes from so and so’s line” doesn’t mean the pup you will be getting can do the job you will be asking it to. IMO find a breeder that hunts what you will be hunting, ask for verification, references to back up their claims, whether it be hunting, testing, field trials.. Also, ask for any health tests that the breed club recommends, Hip, Eyes, Elbow, Cardio the list goes on. Verify the claims made by breeders.. You can check scores on line or by calling AKC, FDSB, NSTRA, NAVHDA or VHDF.

While I am more familiar with pointing dogs, I think this advice may be used on flushers as well, but I bow to a higher authority on flushers if I am wrong.. Good luck..

[Mikezx18]

I think Wikepedia may sum it up pretty well

In a field trial the dogs are competing against each other and typically have great range. Depending on where you live and hunt you may not want a dog that runs miles from you. For safety alone such as roads and whatnot. Field trials are typically run on horseback but walking trials seen to be gaining in popularity.

Field trials dogs are the elite dogs of the sport. They run edges and they run with a purpose. Field trials are highly political regardless of what anyone says.

What I can say is that typically genetics play a big role in what the offspring will be and regardless of the politics if the parents are field champions then there is a good chance the pups will have some sort of inherent talent and hunting ability. Especially if there are multiple generations of field champions.

There are field trials for certain breed types as well. I know that there are pointer field trials and there are retriever field trials. I have only ever attended pointer field trials so I cannot comment on retriever trials.

Hunt tests and NAVDA tests grade the dogs on a set of criteria and you do not compete against other dogs.

Go to the AKC website and look for a club or event near you. Typically newcomers that show interest are welcomed with open arms

[gonehuntin']

People; he's asking about field trial labradors, not pointiing dogs.

[nikegundog]

Almost every Lab Ad talks about their "Championship bloodline" pups, and buried far enough back in the pedigree you will probably find one. If it matters to you, request a pedigree and see what is really there. And remember you are looking for Field Champions, you don't want to see Show Champions in the bloodlines for Labradors. Do you know about clearances?

[Sharon]

Sorry if this is in the wrong area, im not sure if this is related to hunting or training or where so i went the safe route and put it here. lol

Okay so you may or not know, i dont have a huntin dog just yet. My plan is to get a Black lab (color doesn't matter, i know. :p) and just do upland birds. No waterfowl. Mainly pheasants, chuckers and such.

Anyways, one of the things i keep seeing with breeders is this field trial champs that the parents, or grandparents are etc. I get its a competition, but what is it exactly, and how does one become a champion at it. Is it something that you can train for or is it to determine natural ablities?

You don't need to get a dog from a Champion, but you do need to get a dog from a line that has the genes that have it allowed the dogs to be successful at hunting.

Capable training is essential , but it won't make a Champion.

[nikegundog]

Sorry if this is in the wrong area, im not sure if this is related to hunting or training or where so i went the safe route and put it here. lol

Okay so you may or not know, i dont have a huntin dog just yet. My plan is to get a Black lab (color doesn't matter, i know. :p) and just do upland birds. No waterfowl. Mainly pheasants, chuckers and such.

Anyways, one of the things i keep seeing with breeders is this field trial champs that the parents, or grandparents are etc. I get its a competition, but what is it exactly, and how does one become a champion at it. Is it something that you can train for or is it to determine natural ablities?

You don't need to get a dog from a Champion, but you do need to get a dog from a line that has the genes that have it allowed the dogs to be successful at hunting.

Buy this video to see what a Champion can do/ how one becomes a Champion.. Capable training is essential , but it won't make a Champion.

http://pleasanthillproductions.com/

Sharon that video appears to be for pointers, is it not? This guy is getting at a Lab.

[Sharon]

Mercy . You're right. Sorry.

[siker]

Female over here! haha Its okay.

I was originally asking about field trials in general. Pointing or retrieving. I kinda get what your saying.. but now horses are involved? I think im gonna look up some videos of it on youtube..

I guess the reason i also ask is that i have 2 places where im looking at pups for. I know one has championship bloodlines for FTs and such. The other, im not sure.. But if it is something that helps the hunting part of it, i woulnt mind trying it.. I want to get involved with my dogs as much as i can. I feel bad leaving the two i have now at home while i go hunt with a buddies dog. (not that they are bird dogs or anything. One i like to pretend he is.. lol)


Thank you for your reponses.. everyone here is super helpful. Even though im looking at a retriever vs pointer... But if it makes it any better... i really want my lab to point, then on command flush.. lol I heard its possible, but who knows.

[gonehuntin']

Boy, way to muddy the water! You said you were getting a black lab, now we're into pointers. How about versatiles if you'll be hunting waterfrowl and upland? I think you have to forget about the field trials, think about what you want to hunt, then pick the dog. Otherwise this discussion could circle around endlessly.

Pointer or retriever, stick to field trial lines and you'll get a better dog.

[siker]

Boy, way to muddy the water! You said you were getting a black lab, now we're into pointers. How about versatiles if you'll be hunting waterfrowl and upland? I think you have to forget about the field trials, think about what you want to hunt, then pick the dog. Otherwise this discussion could circle around endlessly.

Pointer or retriever, stick to field trial lines and you'll get a better dog.

Nope. Sticking with a black lab. Im personally not fond of pointers for hunting. However, i did say that i want my lab to point, then on command flush, so we could be in a good range, ready to shoot, with out having to kick up teh bird ourselves.. With the pointers we been out with, thats what happens, me having to kick up the bird, and then blasting them at like 5-10 ft away.. what a wastes of good meat right there..... Hence why i like flushing dogs better..

But i had questions about FTs in general. Since most of the people here have pointers, i was just getting the view and details from anyone who had information about it... Cause looking at pups, i wanted to know if its worth spending the extra cash cause mommy and daddy were FT champs. Plus if it is something that i can do when im not hunting, either to train for it, or do it... if it would benefit the hunting part. If it would confuse the dog, or not help then i wouldnt bother.

I picked a lab for upland hunting, for now. I mentioned this to another member via PM, but i didnt enjoy going duck hunting when i went out.. But i also never gave it a shot much after that.. So i want a lab so if i decide to go water foul hunting in the future, my dog can do it..

[siker]

Just because a dog “comes from so and so’s line” doesn’t mean the pup you will be getting can do the job you will be asking it to. IMO find a breeder that hunts what you will be hunting, ask for verification, references to back up their claims, whether it be hunting, testing, field trials.. Also, ask for any health tests that the breed club recommends, Hip, Eyes, Elbow, Cardio the list goes on. Verify the claims made by breeders.. You can check scores on line or by calling AKC, FDSB, NSTRA, NAVHDA or VHDF.

Sorry for double posting.. I was meaning to reply to you too and i forgot! I understand where your coming from, and i do plan on getting a pup that the breeders know if that pup will be better for hunting or just a family pal.

But in my last post, i still want to know if FT is something i would like to do as well. *shrug* Just trying to understand what it is, and how it works in relation to hunting.

[Sharon]

Visit some field tests in your area ?? this Spring.

[siker]

Visit some field tests in your area ?? this Spring.

Thats a good idea. Maybe i'll tag along with the breeder if they are doing any.

[gonehuntin']

Training a dog to flush on command is just training; any of the breeds will do it.

That narrows your search to a lab from a POINTING LAB KENNEL. Check out Tiger Mountain; they're turning out some very good dogs.

[siker]

Training a dog to flush on command is just training; any of the breeds will do it.

That narrows your search to a lab from a POINTING LAB KENNEL. Check out Tiger Mountain; they're turning out some very good dogs.

Does that have to be bred into a lab? vs just getting a hunting lab and training it to point, and flush on command?

[Becassier]

Does that have to be bred into a lab? vs just getting a hunting lab and training it to point, and flush on command?

If you want a pointing lab go to "Pointing Lab Kennel", but you are going to narrow the field for your choices on where to go. IMO I don't think a traditional HTR Lab breeder will talk to you, once they know you expect it to point. If a breeder uses any of these terms: "they all hunt, they are all great, they all will point".. run... Also ask for health certificates on their dogs (hips, eyes, elbows and what ever else the breed club recommends).

There is a difference in the development of a traditional pointing dog vs. flushers/HTR. For the first 16 months of a traditional pointing dogs life you are encouraging it's independence, letting it figure out the different smells and what to do with them. Not focusing on obedience which is the bases of the HTR training in the first 16months..

IMO the pointing labs are bred be able to hunt long periods of time in the field, usually smaller in structure and have a different mind set then the HTR lab.

Check out: http://www.huntersrosekennel.homestead.com ~ he has a lot of information on his site ~ I have seen his labs in action and they are excellent.

[jetjockey]

If your "kicking" up birds, my guess is your hunting poorly released pen birds. Get ready for a lab or Cocker, springer, etc to catch those same birds before you ever get to shoot. If your destroying birds at 10-25 yards out, there's any easy fix. Don't shoot till the birds are 20-30 yards out. Or open your chokes. You will not have to "kick up" wild birds. Many of them will flush well before your ready! What types of birds will you be hunting mostly?

[Becassier]

Just because a dog “comes from so and so’s line” doesn’t mean the pup you will be getting can do the job you will be asking it to. IMO find a breeder that hunts what you will be hunting, ask for verification, references to back up their claims, whether it be hunting, testing, field trials.. Also, ask for any health tests that the breed club recommends, Hip, Eyes, Elbow, Cardio the list goes on. Verify the claims made by breeders.. You can check scores on line or by calling AKC, FDSB, NSTRA, NAVHDA or VHDF.

Sorry for double posting.. I was meaning to reply to you too and i forgot! I understand where your coming from, and i do plan on getting a pup that the breeders know if that pup will be better for hunting or just a family pal.

But in my last post, i still want to know if FT is something i would like to do as well. *shrug* Just trying to understand what it is, and how it works in relation to hunting.

Sorry I didn't respond to this.. I would strongly recommend you talk to Dale at Hunter Rose Kennel about the personal and financial commitment to bring a Pointing Lab to the level needed to test and compete.. The more time you spend with your pup in a field on birds will help develop him into a "better" hunter

[oldbeek]

I would look up NSTRA. See if there any trials in your area. NSTRA is closer to hunting than AKC and the dogs are worked on foot. At one of these trials you can see many breeds in action. You may benefit from seeing other breeds in action. My view of AKC may be wrong, but what I have seen is it almost takes a pro trainer to trial your dog to get a title. In NSTRA there are trainers out there but quite a few individuals do well running their own trained dogs.

[siker]

If your "kicking" up birds, my guess is your hunting poorly released pen birds. Get ready for a lab or Cocker, springer, etc to catch those same birds before you ever get to shoot. If your destroying birds at 10-25 yards out, there's any easy fix. Don't shoot till the birds are 20-30 yards out. Or open your chokes. You will not have to "kick up" wild birds. Many of them will flush well before your ready! What types of birds will you be hunting mostly?

There arent any wild birds in my area.. they release a few dozen birds in certain public areas. Not allowed to shoot hens on public cause they are trying to get them to populate themselves, but with the limit on how many you can shoot, and not very well regulated... it wont happen.. I can shoot 2 males a day. Dont have to register them, so if i really wanted to i could go drop of the birds and go out again, no one would know how many i got... Its kinds dumb IMO. So either way, your getting dumb pen raised birds here.

Check out: http://www.huntersrosekennel.homestead.com ~ he has a lot of information on his site ~ I have seen his labs in action and they are excellent.

i will check them out.

[ckfowler]

Not sure where you are located but UFTA and BDC both have field trials and some of the folks have dogs that point.