Dog tug of war?

[jetjockey]

My 6 month old and 6 year old Brit have discovered the joys of playing tug of war with each other. I swear that they could play with a golf ball if I let them. I don't want them to develop a hard mouth but need the toys so the puppy doesn't eat the inside of the house. I've heard of the stories owners playing tug of war with their pups and developing hard mouth, but what about dogs playing amongst eachother?

[Neil]

Not a problem that can't be easily corrected. Let them play.

It belongs with the other nonsense like:

Never shoot an unpointed bird
No treats
Don't let the dog in the house
Never hunt your dog with someone's untrained one
Always be the alpha
Don't hunt your field trial dog
Etc

All bunk, passed down as hard truths.

[kcbullets]

I play tug of war with my 13 mo old GSP inside the house with a large rope (she loves it). It hasn't had any negative translation to the field. They know the difference if they are trained.

[gonehuntin']

M

They know the difference if they are trained.

Those eight little words are the key. You can create a hard mouth dog and it is NOT easy to cure. FF may or may not do it. Most of the time children and dogs have a special relationship; the dog knows kids are for play but the boss is for work. I absolutely never, with me, allow a dog to play tug of war. When I say drop, they better drop or retribution is swift and sure.

Tug of war can be beneficial to loose mouth dogs; it can give them a better grip. I don't think it hurts a thing to let kids play with the dog and do what they want with the dog, as long as it doesn't transfer to you.

Beware; a hard mouth dog can be impossible to cure.

[Neil]

I believe he is talking about a pup and older GSP playing tug of war.

[gonehuntin']

You're correct Neil, my mistake. I see no problem with dog's playing.

[Jidano3]

I have a 5 month old pup and a 2 yr old GSP that play tug of war also. It has no effect what so ever out in the field. The 2 yr old will release the birds no problem, she knows the difference between play and hunting. Even my pup knows the difference. Like someone stated, don't bring that type of playing out into the training and you should be fine.

[hettmoe]

The dogs that I have known, gundogs as well as cattledogs, have always known the difference between play and work. Even as young as 4 months old.

[jetjockey]

I believe he is talking about a pup and older GSP playing tug of war.

Actually it's two Brits.

Thanks for the info guys. I don't let my adult brit retrieve very often because she gets trialed, but I want to make sure the pup doesn't develop a hard mouth in case she ends up as just a hunting dog. If she's just s hunting dog, I'll probably have her FF'd after I send her out to summer camp this year with my pro.

I won't worry too much about them playing tug of war. Besides, the older dog will be gone in 3 weeks back out on the trial circuit, so there won't be too much more playing anyways.

[polmaise]

If not concerned, why ask the question? Are you that bored? I really am ready to stop posting. I think about the questions, compose what I hope is a helpful response. 1/2 the time it is someone looking for an argument, the other 48% it is someone with their minds made up, leaving about 2% really wanting assistance.

+1

[jetjockey]

If not concerned, why ask the question? Are you that bored? I really am ready to stop posting. I think about the questions, compose what I hope is a helpful response. 1/2 the time it is someone looking for an argument, the other 48% it is someone with their minds made up, leaving about 2% really wanting assistance.

I'll bite my tongue very hard on this one! But you didn't even read the post well enough to see I was talking about two Brits.

I was concerned because I've heard of hard mouth problems developing by playing tug of war with young dogs. I posed the question to see what you guys thought of two dogs playing tug of war together. Every respone said its not really an issue. Because of that, I'll continue to let them play with the toys and I won't be too concerned about it creating hard mouth issues. What's so hard to understand about that Neil?

[Neil]

Do you really think there is some great genetic difference in Britts and GSPs that would have altered my response in any way?

Guess I am just grumpy, but I believe you already had your mind made up before you posted.

Why do you not allow the Field trial dog to retrieve very often?

Perhaps a discussion on that will salvage the thread.

[jetjockey]

Do you really think there is some great genetic difference in Britts and GSPs that would have altered my response in any way?

Guess I am just grumpy, but I believe you already had your mind made up before you posted.

Why do you not allow the Field trial dog to retrieve very often?

Perhaps a discussion on that will salvage the thread.

I didn't have my mind made up. I want to make sure I do everything right with this pup. She has the breeding to be very good, so I don't want to screw that up.

The reason I don't let my trial dog retrieve is because my Pro told me to stop letting her. I've talked to other Pros that said basically the same thing. Seems they all think that the anticipation of the retrieve can take some of the style out of the point after the flush. Since my dog has some things going against her in trials, she needs all the help she can get to placements:

[gonehuntin']

What a stupid pitty. Not letting a gun dog retrieve because it may lose style after the flush. What good is a hunting dog that doesn't retrieve, and isn't that the purpose of a Trial, to develop a better hunting dog? Now we have bird dogs that find birds but don't retrieve them. What a croc.

[jetjockey]

What a stupid pitty. Not letting a gun dog retrieve because it may lose style after the flush. What good is a hunting dog that doesn't retrieve, and isn't that the purpose of a Trial, to develop a better hunting dog? Now we have bird dogs that find birds but don't retrieve them. What a croc.

We've always had bird dogs that don't retrieve. That's why God made cockers!

[Neil]

At last something that might prove of interest.

I have found that while they might be more prone to break, dogs STWS style up at the shot and fall if allowed to retrieve, as Buddy Smith says they break with everything but their feet. It takes more training, but I have found it pays off in desire and animation. Rarely is the easiest route (not hunting, or restricted hunting in this case) the best.

I have taken below average dogs and won just because I do hunt the stew out of them.

[jetjockey]

That could be true, but I'm not fixing what isnt broke. I hunt the heck out of my adult dog when I have her home, but I rarely let her retrieve. She's great to hunt over, and not too shabby in trials.

[Neil]

I love the specialists, cockers, or in my case Boykins, but I hold them in reserve for the high level retrieves.

I once took a Boykin back 5 hours after some pretty good Labs tried to find some downed Huns to recover two they missed.

[Neil]

That could be true, but I'm not fixing what isnt broke. I hunt the heck out of my adult dog when I have her home, but I rarely let her retrieve. She's great to hunt over, and not too shabby in trials.

It all depends on how you define "not too shabby", what is her true potential?

[jetjockey]

Shes not too shabby! . She has size and color going against her. That's why style is important.

[Neil]

Did you miss the part about retrieving increasing intensity and style? Think about it from the dog's point of view, what is more exciting, watching birds fall that rarely get in your mouth or waiting for the prize? I grant it takes a higher level of training.

Again, I ask what is not too shabby, what is her potential?

[jetjockey]

Her potential? Who knows? With any luck she will win Nationals or the DOY award. She has already proven more then I could have ever asked. Now it's just a matter of a little luck. With the exception of one local trial, we kept her out the entire spring circuit last year, and she whelped her first litter in July, yet she was still one of the top dogs in the country. Had we not kept her out, she may have been DOY last year.

[oldbeek]

The retrieve is why I like NSTRA. It mirrors hunting, it is competitive and I don't need to hire a pro or buy a horse.

[GmanHawaii]

I'm sorry and this is just my humble opinion, but a hunting dog not retrieving because it might screw up its style on the point and flush is about as lame a statement as a show judge telling me he passed on my GSP because he was "too muscular". My reply was, last time I checked GSP's were still in the sporting class. To me the retrieve is the completion of the cycle. Point, flush, shoot bird and if I hit it, my reward, the retrieve, the dogs reward.

[jetjockey]

I'm sorry and this is just my humble opinion, but a hunting dog not retrieving because it might screw up its style on the point and flush is about as lame a statement as a show judge telling me he passed on my GSP because he was "too muscular". My reply was, last time I checked GSP's were still in the sporting class. To me the retrieve is the completion of the cycle. Point, flush, shoot bird and if I hit it, my reward, the retrieve, the dogs reward.

Not to get off subject. But.
You have to go back to the history of trials to understand why they are run the way they are. Traditionally, when hunting in the South where trials began, pointing dogs found and pointed birds, and then flushing dogs were released to flush and retrieve the downed birds. They used specialists for flushing and retrieving. You can still do a hunt like that on some of the plantations down here. If you saw some of the cover Gentleman Bob hung out in, you'd understand why. Also, trials were run on wild birds in the beginning. Killing birds out of season for a retrieve isnt exactly legal. Even today, many trials in the South are run on wild birds out of hunting season, so retrieving isnt possible. The sad thing is we don't have the wild bird numbers that we once had, so we've have to supplement our trials, and our hunting with released birds.

[Neil]

Trust me, the top AF dogs have birds killed for them, now and in the past. They don't worry much about hard mouth. Hall of Famer John Rex Gates once answered the question if he let his great dogs retrieve, "If you are talking about a mess of birds for the table, you best bring along the jaws of life."

[jetjockey]

That's fine. Ive spoken with two top Brit Pros and they both said basically the exact same thing. Another all breed Pro said to let them only retrieve a few so the dog didn't anticipate the retrieve. Like I said, since it isn't broke, I'm not fixing it. I will not put up with hard mouth though. I want birds suitable for the table without teeth marks in them. I do my best to make clean kills with very little shot damage to the bird. I expect he same from my dogs.

[Neil]

And if I were your trainer I would tell you the same thing, it is just easier on the trainer. Easier is rarely better. Again, I want them anticipating the retrieve, up on their toes. I never let any dog retrieve ever bird, I always hunt them in at least pairs, so they take turns, and sometimes I let the backing dog retrieve. And sometimes I beat the pros you are quoting, more often than my rather ordinary dogs deserve, in part because my dogs are allowed to retrieve a couple hundred birds a year.

You are also confused, I don't care what you do with your dog, I am giving advice to those that don't have their minds made up. Your dog, your choice, just don't claim you know best.

Good luck with your dogs, I am sure they are nice.

Neil

[jetjockey]

And if I were your trainer I would tell you the same thing, it is just easier on the trainer. Easier is rarely better. Again, I want them anticipating the retrieve, up on their toes. I never let any dog retrieve ever bird, I always hunt them in at least pairs, so they take turns, and sometimes I let the backing dog retrieve. And sometimes I beat the pros you are quoting, more often than my rather ordinary dogs deserve, in part because my dogs are allowed to retrieve a couple hundred birds a year.

You are also confused, I don't care what you do with your dog, I am giving advice to those that don't have their minds made up. Your dog, your choice, just don't claim you know best.

Good luck with your dogs, I am sure they are nice.

Neil

It seems to me if that was an obvious competitive advantage the Pros would do the same thing. I know that if I were a Pro, I would want every advantage I could to win, since my name would be on the line. Again, I'm just asking so I can learn. I've seen a noticable difference in my dog since I stopped letting her retrieve.

I'll give you some background on why I was told to stop letting her retrieve. 2 winters ago when she was home, I decided it would be cool to try and pin a MH title on her. I had her retrieving to hand with not much work at all. The next year she had her worst season since we started running her. She had little bobbles that knocked her out. Stuff like turning to mark and take 1 step, or not stop fast enough on a STF. Little stuff. At a championship at the end of last 2013, we watched her run and she was looking great. At about 45 she had a her second find and turned to mark while literally taking a half step. Game over. When my trainer came back with her collared he looked up and said no more retrieving.

Last winter I hunted the heck out of her and stopped letting her retrieve. At the first trial back on the spring circuit she took RU Ch. I then ran her in the Amateur CH and she placed again. She went on to place in almost 50% of the trials she was entered in last year, and didn't have a single bobble. Not too shabby considering we only entered her in 1 hr trials. That's why I stopped letting her retrieve.

[Neil]

OK