Red setter vs irish setter

[Dirty Dawger]

as a long timer, I did see "Irish" setters compete however it was in a hunt test and they did very well. My issue is simply this. It would appear that in North America you don't have a good Red, Setter, Weim, Viszla, GSP, GWP, etc. unless it runs off horseback like an AA pointer. Trust me, I have first hand knowledge as I have competed and done well in FDSB, AKC, CKC predominantly in horseback events but walking as well. I have won and placed against pointers with a 26 lb. Brittany and won/placed with this same Brittany in cover trials. I finished a CKC FT Ch Gordon that had to run against GSPs, Britts, etc. to get it Ch title. I ran this same Gordon and although I didn't win I placed against horseback pointers. When I ran this Gordon in Solon Springs there were more folk interested in my dog than the dog that won. Those other Gordons ran either side of the horse path tallying 6 finds. (Yawwwnnnn........I wouldn't feed that Gordon!) Sherry _ _ _ _ _ was judging and she came up to me when I was standing all alone saying, "You know we couldn't use your dog?"
I said, "Yup....he didn't have a sinlge find - mighta found a sharptail out there but..." (And this dog handled at long range like he was on a long line.)
She said, "Nope. He's too much dog for this event. If I ever saw an AA Gordon, I did today."
What did I know? I thought it was a NATIONAL. ????
My point is simply this "we" have lost sight of the fact that Britts, GSPs, Gordons, and Irish setters aren't SUPPOSED to be pointers! If I want a pointer or setter I buy one. If I want a dog whose natural ability traits are supposed to be akin to their origins - as in closer working, less independent - I don't want ANY of these horseback FT champions. It doesn't mean an Irish/red setter won't hunt, handle, retrieve, look stunning on point, etc. Perhaps walking trials and tests are better suited to what these breeds are supposed to be in the first place. Something to think about.

[Red Delicious]

There is a difference between being able to hunt and hunting.

I now have a field bred dog out of Chukarhill Burn Notice and he even though he puts birds in the bag he is much more exciting to watch.

Chukarhill Burn Notice is a real nice dog!

Craig O.

[RyanDoolittle]

There is a difference between being able to hunt and hunting.

I now have a field bred dog out of Chukarhill Burn Notice and he even though he puts birds in the bag he is much more exciting to watch.

Chukarhill Burn Notice is a real nice dog!

Craig O.

His son is too

Too bad he has bad hips otherwise I would have him out trialin.

[KwikIrish]

There is a difference between being able to hunt and hunting.

I now have a field bred dog out of Chukarhill Burn Notice and he even though he puts birds in the bag he is much more exciting to watch.

Chukarhill Burn Notice is a real nice dog!

Craig O.

His son is too

Too bad he has bad hips otherwise I would have him out trialin.

3 littermates came back ofa "good". Questions coming your way via pm.

[dan v]

When I ran this Gordon in Solon Springs there were more folk interested in my dog than the dog that won. It ran either side of the horse path tallying 6 finds. (Yawwwnnnn........I wouldn't feed that Gordon!) Sherry _ _ _ _ _ was judging and she came up to me when I was standing all alone saying, "You know we couldn't use your dog?"
I said, "Yup....he didn't have a sinlge find - mighta found a sharptail out there but..." (And this dog handled at long range like he was on a long line.)
She said, "Nope. He's too much dog for this event. If I ever saw an AA Gordon, I did today."
What did I know? I thought it was a NATIONAL. ????

And you are who? I recall a dog that raced around Solon, in the shorter cover, was a dog by the name of Thunder.

I put on that 2002 Championship. No sense not naming names....the judges were Sherry Ebert & Edsel Grove. To insinuate you wouldn't own Ray (The 2002 Champion) means you really don't know what you're looking at or you're confusing some dogs.

Dan Voss

[dan v]

There is a difference between being able to hunt and hunting.

I have had both, an old school bench bred Irish that was a great pheasant dog. Boring as heck to watch but would put birds in the bag. I now have a field bred dog out of Chukarhill Burn Notice and he even though he puts birds in the bag he is much more exciting to watch.

So, you have a Tatertot!

[RyanDoolittle]

Yes he is a Tate x Rumore breeding from the first litter susan did.

[Dirty Dawger]

Dan , precisely my point and yes, the dog was Thunder. You remember him too!
Yes, Dan, it was a very disappointing experience for me because there were an unusually large number of dogs with 4-7 finds - none were more than 20-25 yards off of the horse path. I guess having competed with Thunder against Shooting Dogs (pointers, setters etc.) and the grounds had me confused about the expectation of that stake. ...my bad.
Anyway, perhaps what I was alluding to is that the dogs that were finding birds on either side of the path are what Gordons are supposed to be rather than how Thunder ran? I just struggled with why they were being run off horseback?

[NLsetter]

I love the dogs coming from Irish lines in Norway and German. Great video to watch even if dont speak Norwegian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45O0CJHFA_U

[dan v]

Dan , precisely my point and yes, the dog was Thunder. You remember him too!
Yes, Dan, it was a very disappointing experience for me because there were an unusually large number of dogs with 4-7 finds - none were more than 20-25 yards off of the horse path. I guess having competed with Thunder against Shooting Dogs (pointers, setters etc.) and the grounds had me confused about the expectation of that stake. ...my bad.
Anyway, perhaps what I was alluding to is that the dogs that were finding birds on either side of the path are what Gordons are supposed to be rather than how Thunder ran? I just struggled with why they were being run off horseback?

Ugo, maybe the passage of time has changed how you recall the event? I have no doubt that some dogs did indeed have some finds on or near the path....but that is what pen raised bobs do. We started 3 days prior to that event placing five to six 20 bird covies in likely areas. And none of those areas were within 20-25 yards of the path. In fact a number of people started to challenge me about the bird planting planning when 3-4 braces went birdless. My reply to them was that the birds were indeed out there and they had to show some boldness, challenge the cover, and go look for them.

We until recently have run 30 minute weekend trials there and the cover still intimidates dogs of all breeds. It takes a special animal to look good at Solon. And an even more special dog to look good at the Namekagon Barrens.

The oddest thing is, I haven't seen you at a Gordon National since that event, and I've been at everyone since.

I hope the breed evolves into dogs that roll like Thunder, Tip, Ray, Buck, Buzz.....but there is a vocal faction that believes the breed should be a close working brush pig.

[Dirty Dawger]

Well Dan, sadly it's only 10:30 and I can hardly remember what I ate for Breakfast!
The thing is, I recall the past VERY vividly. I road many of the braces (thanks to the graciousnous of many entrants) albeit not all of them (even walked some). Only Thunder ran like Thunder. NO other Gordon even approximated his race Dan, not even remotely, hence the comment from Sherry and I'd bet my left arm (I'm a southpaw) that she didn't share her comment with ANY other entrant. That should remove both my and your perception of what actually transpired.
MANY people will remember Thunder. I'd bet a large bag of dog food that Sherry will remember that Gordon!
I too watched some braces/dogs go birdless and then the ensuing brace/dog had 5 finds so...........????? It tells me what I need to know.
I ran Thunder at a variety of grounds in America as well and here at Hullett where the pointers/setters run their regional Championship. The cover at Hullet for example is quite dense compared to Solon Springs - something like Highland, MI in earlier days. Further-to-this, Thunder came to me as a grouse/woodcock dog, so scouring cover with a dense understory was not new to him.
I appreciate that there are two factions and to be quite honest - and having run BIG running dogs for most of my trial days (had some run off the course only to be returned at a later date) - I side with the race/range that is reflective of the breed. That was my singular point. I re-iterate, "If you want a dog than runs like a pointer, buy a pointer."
Gordons, Britts, Weims, GSPs, etc. aren't SUPPOSED to be quasi-pointers. Yet, somehow in North America, you don't have a decent "other breed" unless it runs like a pointer. I'm going to go out on a limb and say, "A Gordon should run like a Gordon." I know....that's outrageous but that's all I'm alluding to, and after all, it's just an opinion.
Thanks for allowing this retired trialer the pleasure of reliving an awesome incomparable Gordon. Still, today I would not ask that of a Gordon in the first place.

[RyanDoolittle]

I love it when people think a dog from Germany should hunt like a german dog here in North america. Dont really know what use that would be.

[DonF]

I love it when people think a dog from Germany should hunt like a german dog here in North america. Dont really know what use that would be.

I think that as long as horse's are used to run dog's from, that will continue.

[shags]

As to personal gun dogs, there are imdividuals of each breed to fill the paticular wants and needs of just about anyone.

As far as competition goes, speaking trials here, there is one standard of performance for each stake. And for success, dog/handler pairs have to meet the standard; the standard isn't adjusted every time a different breed comes to the line.

There are plenty of games out there. Find the one that fits; much easier and enjoyable than trying to fit the game to a particular type of dog.

[Dirty Dawger]

RyanDoolittle, why do you expect a German breed to hunt differently here than in Germany?
DonF, I agree. I believe there are far too many folk with short-tailed breeds base their determination of a "good dog" predominantly on it's run/race first and then as a secondary consideration, whether it will make a decent bird dog.
Shags, you make a good point....well said. I guess that's why pointers and setters have historically won the Nationals at Ames. It doesn't stop folk with their Dad's Chevy trying to win a Formula 1 race but.......... There are a wide variety of applications for all bird doggers and they would be doing themselves a huge favor by buying the appropriate breed instead of trying to make all those other breeds into pointers/setters, especially when those other breeds have attributes that would serve them better in their particular niche.

[RyanDoolittle]

I dont, thats the point. The ground here are much different than Germany or in the case of the Irish Setter Ireland or the Gordon Setter Scotland. We are all hunting North America so we need a dog that can cover the ground here.

[Dirty Dawger]

A good bird dog is a good bird dog, here or in Germany or in lower Slabovia. GSPs are supposed to be GSPs not quasi-pointers. It's only in America that GSPs, Vizslas, Brittanys, etc. are expected to run (almost) like pointers. It only serves to compromise the performance of the short-tails.
I once ran a dog under a gentleman and a pointer guru named Mr. Joe Willer (respected pointer man). My dog had a limb find and a torrid race. She never placed even though most dogs went birdless! I was upset to say the least!
I walked up to judge Willer and said, "So....what didn't you like about my dog?"
He answered, " She was runnin' not huntin'."
I felt he was wrong but as time went by, I realized, he was 100% correct. Suck it up and learn!
Too many dogs in America run, at the expense of being bird dogs.

[ezzy333]

A good bird dog is a good bird dog, here or in Germany or in lower Slabovia. GSPs are supposed to be GSPs not quasi-pointers. It's only in America that GSPs, Vizslas, Brittanys, etc. are expected to run (almost) like pointers. It only serves to compromise the performance of the short-tails.
I once ran a dog under a gentleman and a pointer guru named Mr. Joe Willer (respected pointer man). My dog had a limb find and a torrid race. She never placed even though most dogs went birdless! I was upset to say the least!
I walked up to judge Willer and said, "So....what didn't you like about my dog?"
He answered, " She was runnin' not huntin'."
I felt he was wrong but as time went by, I realized, he was 100% correct. Suck it up and learn!
Too many dogs in America run, at the expense of being bird dogs.

I just can't disagree with this and has been my concern for years with AA dogs in particular. I think it has gotten better than it was 30 or 40 years ago but we have not gotten over the standard being ignored concerning the way different breeds are supposed to hunt.

Ezzy

[DonF]

+1 Ezzy

I have never been able to tell just what was being judged when a dog places tat was missing for half the brace or better. Rule book used to say they had to handle reasonably well, and couldn't be gone for more 1/6th of the brace as I recall. But those dog's did place. Then there was the grey area dog. Run's to much for a gun dog and not enough for an all age. It was said they were really AF shooting dogs. Never have found the grey area dog explained in the AKC rule's. I fear that in the end, the AA field trialers will take the field dog's in the opposite direction as show people have. Probably the worst thing that has happened is the use of horse's to handle from. As I understand it, it was a convenience for pro handler's with large string's of dog's It has been badly abused.

[RyanDoolittle]

DD i am curious as to how range or Ameicanizing the european breeds hurts performance? I dont understand how increasing range, stamina, and style is hurting performance.

[ezzy333]

DD i am curious as to how range or Ameicanizing the european breeds hurts performance? I dont understand how increasing range, stamina, and style is hurting performance.

I think you are making a mistake if you think we are improving all of those things. We have increased range somewhat but the bid difference is in speed and style. and to do that we have had to change temperament. I don't think you will find anyone that says that is all bad and hopefully there are still a lot of people who don't think it is all good. Largely it is just different and that can be good or bad depending on what you want from your dog. I am totally turned off by the people who think that the performance they want means we have to change the conformation of the breeds. I have and continue to feel like we have enough different breeds that hunt differently that you can find the breed you think preforms in the manner you like and go with those dogs and not buy some other breed and then try to change it. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

Ezzy

[shags]

Ezzy,
I have a large collection of sporting dog prints with dogs from the mid 1800s onward. The pointers and setters in them look very much like the the dogs I own, and the dogs of friends. Size, conformation, and coat are very similar. I have to surmise that performance people haven't changed the standard much at all. However, if you compare these dogs to bench dogs over the years, you will notice a huge difference.
A friend who shows dogs told me long ago "we must breed and produce what wins". So it seems that change does not come entirely from performance people.
Who is it that writes and makes changes to breed conformation standards? Bench fanciers or performance?
If you have some spare time, check out the websites of the parent clubs of various sporting breeds and take a look at their top showring winners. Then see if any photos of their field dogs are available. Which side has changed the most?

[RyanDoolittle]

Take a look at the first DK brought into North America and compare it to the DKs/ GSP in North America then in Germany. HOLY CROW THE GERMAN DKs DONT EVEN LOOK THE SAME!! Breed evolve as the hunting, game and terrain changes. I would expect a dog to perfom different in Washington than it would in Saskatchewan than it would in Rhode Island. Over tme the dog required for each of those terrains is going to be bred for different traits and change. No different than Europe and North America.

You have to remember alot of these VDogs were bred for people who could not afford or were not allowed to have a kennel full of specialists so they needed a do all dog for their terrain. This dog was there to put food on the table or the family didnt eat. Times have changed and so have the dogs.

The pointers of europe where the breed originated look and perform nothing like the NA Pointer same with the Setter.

There were no pointing/setting dogs here.

Lastly there is alot more to a dog than performance. You make like the performance of a pointer but the temperment of a vizsla.

I am glad we have americanized breeds such as the GSP. I cant imagine walking the prairies, deserts, or piney woods with a European dog.

I know this is a Setter thread, I only use the GSP because I am most familiar with it.

[Dirty Dawger]

The best analogy might be that trials are the Formula 1 of dog events. That said, if you need a vehicle to get you to the office, or the kids to the game, or get a load of firewood, the F1 car isn't practical. Admittedly, the generic family vehicle has been made more efficient in part because of F1 racing with F1 being a testing grounds of sorts. Who can argue the successes in our every day vehicle that found it's origins in F1 - ABS brakes being but 1?
Here's where I see the issue. Folk think that they need the INDEPENDENT horseback trial dog to hunt with. This is where certain folk are.....confused, perhaps? I can bring a GSP or GWP right from Germany and after a couple of seasons, it will adjust it's range and pace to accommodate the prairies (have witnessed this with European setters too). Range is not something you can breed into a dog. "Independence" is something you can breed into a dog and as such, this is where I believe some folk's analysis/perception is compromised. Conditioning/diet - a human factor more-so than canine - will increase stamina/endurance in your typical dog - not just breeding. An unfit AA pointer is not going to have any more stamina than a fit Brittany. Being unfit will not restrict that AA pointer from trying to hobble over the next time zone!
It is this aspect of independence that can make the casual lady or gentleman bird hunter - especially one new to our sport - reticent to buy from horseback field trial stock - understandably so. Personally, I enjoy making a hot field trial bred dog into an effective gun dog BUT I must get this dog into my hands at a very early age to rekindle teamwork and suppress extreme independence.
You can in fact make a well bred trial dog into a wonderful gun dog however it can be difficult to make a dog from gun dog breeding into a successful horseback trial dog unless it displays that independence along with the other typical attributes.
Trials most assuredly have a place in the development/maintenance of a high caliber bird dog. Still, I have to chuckle when I see/hear bird hunters touting their dogs as superior in big part because of their "run". You'd be surprised at how many dogs actually outrun their noses and find far too few birds - but they sure look awesome doing so. If you want to see this yourself, go to a local short-tail horseback field trial. Keep an eye on the bird planter.
As was already mentioned, none of the bird dog breed's originated here in America. We made them into what they are and that's fine as long as we don't lose sight of the goal. That goal should not be for the atypical hunter to run a trial-type dog when hunting the prairies only because it is showing unruly almost self-hunting conduct under the guise of nothing more than being a "big runner". ????
My setter covers a ton of ground when she hunts the prairies but I NEVER have to worry about losing her. She also hunts very dense cover for grouse/woodcock at what some hunters might feel is rangy BUT she is not a self-hunter and will check on me without directional support, hacking, beeper or bell. Man...can she find wild birds and when I find her standing, more-often-than not, "I" flush the bird(s).
Let's not confuse effective gun dog range where finding/producing birds is key, with field trial independence where the number of finds is not the singular most important measure of the dog.
A close working bird dog from the prairies might seem like a big runner on the east coast. Give him some time out east and he will adapt. That's because that's what good, smart bird dogs will do. A renegade is a renegade - on the prairies or in the dense cover of eastern America. If a bird dog is "hunting" it should produce birds for the hunter, and not just for him/herself no matter what the habitat.
The exception as I see it is the "cover trial dog". This is a dog that still has pace, and a reasonable enough amount of independence to win events BUT must also have the nose to go with the torrid pace. No birds...no win! You can run a flashy, rocket-of-a-dog but if it doesn't peg a wily grouse for the judges to judge/witness AND with some consistency, you are a long way from a champion - no planted birds here. I should add that they are foot handled too. Handling these rangy dogs in cover requires teamwork and a rapport that might make most casual hunters edgy. Basically, they do not have that extreme independence that a horseback dog MUST display - they HANDLE.
In closing, horseback - especially AA trial dogs are best left with the pros. Too many dog owners/trainers see themselves as quasi-pros and run short-tails that show the kind of independence that approximates what a trial horseback dog might be but with too few of the attributes that define what a competent bird dog should be. More-often-than-not, they have unruly renegades that run past too many finds, require too much hacking to be proficient especially on wild birds, and sadly, are being back-yard bred to provide more-of-the-same!

[RyanDoolittle]

So now you want to compare AA HB dogs to hunting dogs to cover dogs?

I dont know where you trial but I suggest looking into American Field and AFTCA events if you dont like throw down single course trials. However, like dogs, different strokes for different folks. I really wish I was on my computer vs my phone to address some of your comments.

[Dirty Dawger]

No rush Ryan. I enjoy these opportunities to share our experiences/opinions especially during this lull in activity locally/around here. Man did we get hammered with wind and snow!!! Can't wait 'til spring and the opportunity to play with more dogs!
I'm actually comparing breeds more-so than events.

[RyanDoolittle]

Noone said anything about needing a formula 1 AA bred pointing dog to hunt the country.

The most common thing you will find is an increase in range because of the cover in most of North America being more open. Yes there are areas like the North East that are heavier but even these dogs have bog range when taken out to the piney woods or prairies. The most common thing you find in americanized breeds is an increase in independence, they point with a higher tail, they point with a hogher head and over all the dog stands tall while on point. Over all a much classier more stylish dog. You will also find they run with a "gay tail" or a more erect tail than their european counter parts.

This seems to be prevelent whether in a NAVHDA dog, NSTRA dog, Hunt Test Dog, Horseback Dog, or most hunting dogs. I have heard alot of people say they wished their dog would point with a higher tail but never once have I heard someone say they wished their dog would point with a lower tail.

Weight will effect pointer range. Take a look at a dog who runs an AA championship then look at that same dog run at the National. The handlers put weight on the dogs to slow them down and range for the closer Shooting Dog race that Ames usually is. They need to slow that balls to tye walls hour dog down to last that full 3 hours. The dog must not just last but he must finish just as strong as he started. This is why you see so many dogs picked up early.

I will also say any unruly self hunting dog, whether long or short tail, is not going to place let alone win at a trial. We both know that. The dog must be checking in an hunting infront of the handler. You will also find birds win alot of trials. You need to show run but if your dog cant find birds you arent getting placed. Some venues and stakes will require more finds than others but all need birds. This is why pros head out to the prairies to train on wild birds.

However with all this I am still not sure what it has to do with the topic?

[Dirty Dawger]

Your points are well made RyanDoolittle however back to the OPs topic....there are Reds and there are a few Irish still about. The Reds will likely be more of the American style dog and may display a great deal of independence. Depending on what the OP is looking for, he needs make sure he is getting the dog that addresses his aspirations. Check out the sire and dam in action. Then look at the pedigree. If they reflect what you are looking for, go for it.

[RyanDoolittle]

It is my understanding the irish were crossed with american field english setters to make reds.

Your right there are a few irish about but not many.

[RayGubernat]

It is my understanding the irish were crossed with american field english setters to make reds.

Your right there are a few irish about but not many.

The outcrossing was done decades ago and it was VERY limited in scope. it was done in the light of day, with full knowledge, and agreement with the FDSB. It was done to re-capture the hunting abilities of the Irish Setter which had been lost, allegedly due to illicit crossbreeding of Irish setters with Afghan hounds to enhance their coats which yielded a sharp nosed, long, lanky dog with a flowing coat of hair, nearly zero desire and ability to hunt to the gun and a brain the size of a pea...at least according so some who should know. But they LOOKED pretty.

If the Irish Setter fanciers who were trying to restore the breed to its proper place in the sporting dog world had done things "on the sly", there would not be an issue today. But they did it right, and got punished for being open and honest.

We are probably about seven to ten generations removed from that crossbreeding. The influence of that long ago event, is minimal, but, it continues to be the EXCUSE that the Irish Setter Club of America is using to keep those dogs out of the AKC registry and out of their field events. Sad...and pathetic.

Just one man's interpretation of the events.

RayG

[shags]

Not so much.
A lot of the FDSB guys refused to register any of their dogs with AKC in the 60s and 70s. They were OK with that. Then when the registry was closed, they were shut out. Some still don't care, some would like reciprosity.
And don't tihnk there aren't very recent outcrosses, and some still going on. Some of the folks will admit it if you ask. Others keep it quiet. There's at least one line that can call Ferrell Miller 'Grandpa'
That's not every breeder of reds. But it's something to investigate if that sort of thing is important to a buyer.

[rinker]

When I first started taking the American Field magazine back in about 1988, they listed all enrolled litters in the magazine. I'm not sure when this was stopped. I clearly remember seeing an occasional litter enrollment under the heading, 'Cross Bred Setter'. Does anyone know anything about this?

[shags]

It used to be permissable to cross breed *within the setter breeds* and register the get as cross bred setters. Cross bred setter did not mean setter X pointer, setterX brittany, etc.

Then, after 5 (iirc) generations of breeding true (back to whichever setter breed) the descendants were considered purebred.

I don't know if it's still permissable and if crossbred setter is legitimately registrable.

[Gordon Guy]

I looked into it a couple years ago, for reasons I can't recall and the rules, as of then, still allowed the registering of cross bred setters (E. Setter to I. Setter or to G. Setter).

This thread has taken on a life of it's own. It has been Interesting.

[Dirty Dawger]

I wonder if anyone actually considered going back to the breed origins (Europe) to bring in a resurgence?

[RayGubernat]

Not so much.
A lot of the FDSB guys refused to register any of their dogs with AKC in the 60s and 70s. They were OK with that. Then when the registry was closed, they were shut out. Some still don't care, some would like reciprosity.
And don't tihnk there aren't very recent outcrosses, and some still going on. Some of the folks will admit it if you ask. Others keep it quiet. There's at least one line that can call Ferrell Miller 'Grandpa'
That's not every breeder of reds. But it's something to investigate if that sort of thing is important to a buyer.

So -

Tell me please... Just where did the Irish setter come up with that looooong flowing coat of hair? How did they come up with that looooong pointy nose?

And more importantly....how did that all happen in the space of about twenty years? Selective breeding? Yeah right! VERY selective.

And tell me about the "Ober" rule. You know the one that was specifically enacted by the ISCA to exclude the dogs of Paul Ober, because he had dogs that could do it in the field, as well as in the ring, and they looked like the Irish Setter USED to look.

The ISCA has skeletons in their closet. They know it. The problem is that the leadership has a vested interest in keeping that closet door locked and bolted. It is one thing when an individual does something dishonest. That is why there are rules and laws, to keep individuals honest. It is a whole 'nother thing( to me at least) when the organization, that is supposed to make the rules, does the same.

RayG

[rinker]

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a red setter puppy that had some 'Miller' influence in his pedigree.

[shags]

Ray,
I had Irish Setters from 1970 until the late 90s, and have been a member of ISCA for a lot of that time. i still belong to my local Irish Setter club. I've shown, and done field. All but two of my red dogs were field titled anywhere from FC to JH to VC. The two who weren't titled died very young, before they were able to finish anything. I've attended the national specialty show several times, and many national field trial championships. So I have some background in the breed and within ISCA.

You would be delighted to view a photo I have of an Irish Setter out of show stock owned by a top breeder of the day, back on the late 80s or early 90s. Long fuzzy hair on the legs, ratty sickle tail, back saddle, pointy muzzle with wispy whiskers. The owner used to board the dog at a kennel where I worked. It was sold as pet quality. But the breeding was *really* evident. No doubt about it.

There is no Ober rule. As far as I know, Ober's dogs are AKC registerable. Whether he chooses to run in that venue is his decision. I've seen some of his dogs locally. They're nice, but certainly not all such a threat to other AKC field bred dogs in my area. Unless Dr. Ober is under suspension by the AKC, he can enter any ISCA event. Clubs aren't allowed to exclude entrants because they are afraid of competition. At the ISCA national FT I've observed the whole gamut of types of Irish...from dual type to small sprightly light red dogs with lots of white on them. Any member can submit a name as a prospective judge at the Championships, and there is a wide variety in that pool of judges. So no one can claim that judges are chosen to prefer a certain type of dog.

Several years ago there was a kerfuffle when someone in leadership called out a competitor. The accused instantly went whining to nrsftc and gained sympathy from members there who had no idea of the facts of the accusation. He blamed the accuser of wanting to ostracize him out of fear of competition, which was far from the truth. It's not appropriate to put specifics here but if you want to PM. let me know and I will tell you what I know.

The latest attempt for reciprocal registration was instigated by the field contingent of ISCA and was defeated by vote of the membership. Not surprising when the ratio field to bench is roughly 10% to 90%. I don't know one, not one single person, involved in field trialing Irish Setters, who is against reciprosity OR who is "afraid" of any competition from nrsftc.

I'm sorry that you have evidently been misinformed about what has gone on, and is going on, within ISCA and the breed in general. Some of what you say is true, but much of it is way of base. If you'd like to talk, pm me. I'd be more than happy to give you another point of view.

[JAG06]

I love the dogs coming from Irish lines in Norway and German. Great video to watch even if dont speak Norwegian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45O0CJHFA_U

The Irish setters winning in Norway are very often descendants from recent US imports.......As well as in English Setters in Norway they have had great success with using frozen semen from Tekoa Mountain Patriot - although US lines in ES are not dominant in the breed there - they have certainly worked well for Norwegian Field Trial lines (only walking trials in Norway).

[RayGubernat]

Shags -

I know what I have seen with my own eyes. The ISCA and a local Irish setter club hold trials in my backyard(almost literally) and I have seen Irish setters that hail from up and down the eastern seaboard. probably a couple hundred different dogs over the last eight to ten years. There are some nice dogs that come to compete, but really only a select few that are truly competitive.

I know, and believe, what I was told by an individual who has been in the breed for at least twenty five years, probably more...and who has had multiple AKC champions, including an ISCA National champion. That particular dog was was dual registered, BTW(as was her littermate brother) and they could compete, and win, in any competition short of AF all age.

Bottom line, if someone wants a nice pet, an AKC Irish is a very good choice. They are beautiful dogs that may or may not hunt. You said it yourself...90% of the membership of the ISCA is focused on the show side of the equation. That ain't good for someone looking for a hunting dog. But if someone is looking for a hunting dog, they will have far better odds of being successful if they limit their search to dual registered or FDSB registered Irish or Red setters. That dog can hunt, because 100% of the FDSB breeders are focused on producing hunting or field trial quality dogs. I do not know for sure, but I suspect that the vast majority of the breeders of dual registered dogs are also active in performance dog events, either field trial or hunt test.

What I have seen with my own eyes over the last ten years has led me to the above conclusion.

I'm done.

RayG

[shags]

Fair enough, Ray.
I am also familiar with many of the competitors and dogs in your neck of the woods ( used to run dogs over there quite often) as well as from all over the *rest* of the country. Just sayin'.

High tails and happy trialing.

[jczv]

Shags -

I know what I have seen with my own eyes. The ISCA and a local Irish setter club hold trials in my backyard(almost literally) and I have seen Irish setters that hail from up and down the eastern seaboard. probably a couple hundred different dogs over the last eight to ten years. There are some nice dogs that come to compete, but really only a select few that are truly competitive.

I know, and believe, what I was told by an individual who has been in the breed for at least twenty five years, probably more...and who has had multiple AKC champions, including an ISCA National champion. That particular dog was was dual registered, BTW(as was her littermate brother) and they could compete, and win, in any competition short of AF all age.

Bottom line, if someone wants a nice pet, an AKC Irish is a very good choice. They are beautiful dogs that may or may not hunt. You said it yourself...90% of the membership of the ISCA is focused on the show side of the equation. That ain't good for someone looking for a hunting dog. But if someone is looking for a hunting dog, they will have far better odds of being successful if they limit their search to dual registered or FDSB registered Irish or Red setters. That dog can hunt, because 100% of the FDSB breeders are focused on producing hunting or field trial quality dogs. I do not know for sure, but I suspect that the vast majority of the breeders of dual registered dogs are also active in performance dog events, either field trial or hunt test.

What I have seen with my own eyes over the last ten years has led me to the above conclusion.

I'm done.

RayG

The stuff about % of show people in a breed - although I used to think it myself I've come to think is a big red herring.

Who cares, are you going to buy a dog from them - no so what do they matter. What matters is the number of people serious in breeding hunting/testing/trialing stock in a and what they produce. Are the show people beating somebody over the head and forcing them to breed to their dogs?

If your giving advice to somebody on puppies to purchase just based on dogs registration you aren't really being helpful to begin with so again what does that matter. If you don't know specific pedigrees, sires or breeders its really just a bunch of noise.

So you want a dog out of the winner of the 2014 red setter futurity vs a dog who won the 2013 akc Irish setter gun dog championship. Oh yeah that's the same dog, and if you look at next to the other 'red setters' you won't see a difference.
http://www.fieldtrialdatabase.com/dog.php4?id=65925
http://redsetters.blogspot.com/2014/03/ ... urity.html

Just like the dog ptrrookie posted competed in some akc events and placed is that a negative for dog?

[RayGubernat]

jczv -

You really need to read what I wrote...not what you THINK I wrote.

The AKC registered Irish Setter is a dog that is primarily bred by conformation dog folks. Some do breed for both conformation and field ability...but they are in the minority...in THAT breed.

There is absolutely NO conformation component to the FDSB. There is no agility or dock jumping or obedience or companion animal component to the FDSB. It is strictly a field performance based registry. Always has been. Therefore...ALL dogs that are bred for FDSB, are bred for field performance only, be that hunting or trialing. I sometimes wish that the FDSB would institute a hunt test program, because I do honestly think there is value to it, in terms of making a better hunting dog, if it is done right. But I digress.

I said that if you wanted a nice pet, that may or may not hunt, AKC registered dogs is a great place to look. I said that if one was looking for a hunting dog, their odds of getting a good hunting dog were far better, in THAT breed, if they were to focus on dogs with FDSB or dual registration.

I DID NOT say you could not get a good hunting Irish Setter from purely AKC lines. Obviously, you can. There are folks who work very hard to develop field fogs in the Irish setter breed with the ideal of producing a dual dog, both conformation and field excellence. That is a noble goal and a difficult challenge...in any breed.

I said your odds were BETTER, In THAT breed, if they were FDSB or dual registered. I think even the most diehard Irish Setter folks would agree with that and I think the field trial placement records would reflect that as well.

If you want a horse that runs fast, hard and long...you typically would go to a guy who raises winning racehorses...because your odds of getting a horse that runs fast and hard and long are very good from a breeder that raises winning racehorses.

Certainly you could go to folks that raise other types of horses and, of course, you WILL find horses in many breeds that will run fast and hard and long... but you are going to have to look a lot harder and a lot longer to find a horse that comes close, in all performance areas, to the horses that are available from the winning racehorse breeder. You may want a horse that rides a little smoother than a racehorse, and are willing to give up a little speed. There are breeds for that, like Missouri Foxtrotters, Tennessee Walkers and the American Saddlebred to name a few. You may want a horse that has incredible endurance and are willing to sacrifice a little speed and a little smoothness. There are breeds for that too, especially the Arab.

It is the same with dogs.

RayG

[NLsetter]

I wonder if anyone actually considered going back to the breed origins (Europe) to bring in a resurgence?

Lines from Europe? My dogs breeder ( Russell's) has done this with bringing some Norwegian bloodlines (Kennel Saeterelva) into her program.

[NLsetter]

Shags -

I know what I have seen with my own eyes. The ISCA and a local Irish setter club hold trials in my backyard(almost literally) and I have seen Irish setters that hail from up and down the eastern seaboard. probably a couple hundred different dogs over the last eight to ten years. There are some nice dogs that come to compete, but really only a select few that are truly competitive.

I know, and believe, what I was told by an individual who has been in the breed for at least twenty five years, probably more...and who has had multiple AKC champions, including an ISCA National champion. That particular dog was was dual registered, BTW(as was her littermate brother) and they could compete, and win, in any competition short of AF all age.

Bottom line, if someone wants a nice pet, an AKC Irish is a very good choice. They are beautiful dogs that may or may not hunt. You said it yourself...90% of the membership of the ISCA is focused on the show side of the equation. That ain't good for someone looking for a hunting dog. But if someone is looking for a hunting dog, they will have far better odds of being successful if they limit their search to dual registered or FDSB registered Irish or Red setters. That dog can hunt, because 100% of the FDSB breeders are focused on producing hunting or field trial quality dogs. I do not know for sure, but I suspect that the vast majority of the breeders of dual registered dogs are also active in performance dog events, either field trial or hunt test.




What I have seen with my own eyes over the last ten years has led me to the above conclusion.

I'm done.

RayG

Brophy dogs are AKC, some pretty top notch field dogs coming from there from what I gather.

[Fran Seagren]

It is my understanding the irish were crossed with american field english setters to make reds.

Your right there are a few irish about but not many.

The outcrossing was done decades ago and it was VERY limited in scope. it was done in the light of day, with full knowledge, and agreement with the FDSB. It was done to re-capture the hunting abilities of the Irish Setter which had been lost, allegedly due to illicit crossbreeding of Irish setters with Afghan hounds to enhance their coats which yielded a sharp nosed, long, lanky dog with a flowing coat of hair, nearly zero desire and ability to hunt to the gun and a brain the size of a pea...at least according so some who should know. But they LOOKED pretty.

If the Irish Setter fanciers who were trying to restore the breed to its proper place in the sporting dog world had done things "on the sly", there would not be an issue today. But they did it right, and got punished for being open and honest.

We are probably about seven to ten generations removed from that crossbreeding. The influence of that long ago event, is minimal, but, it continues to be the EXCUSE that the Irish Setter Club of America is using to keep those dogs out of the AKC registry and out of their field events. Sad...and pathetic.

Just one man's interpretation of the events.

RayG

Here here, Ray! Well said.

[KwikIrish]

I love the dogs coming from Irish lines in Norway and German. Great video to watch even if dont speak Norwegian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45O0CJHFA_U

The Irish setters winning in Norway are very often descendants from recent US imports.......As well as in English Setters in Norway they have had great success with using frozen semen from Tekoa Mountain Patriot - although US lines in ES are not dominant in the breed there - they have certainly worked well for Norwegian Field Trial lines (only walking trials in Norway).

There is an influence of Norwegian blood on this side of he pond. Susan Russell imported a dog and he has contributed to her, and a few other breeding programs, namely dual.

[Red Delicious]

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a red setter puppy that had some 'Miller' influence in his pedigree.

I'm not familiar with "Miller" can you expand on the breeding and kennel?

Thanks

Craig O.

[RyanDoolittle]

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a red setter puppy that had some 'Miller' influence in his pedigree.

I'm not familiar with "Miller" can you expand on the breeding and kennel?

Thanks

Craig O.

Millers on line. Millers Silver Bullet. Google it.

Might add a little more white than desired but it would put some style into the puppies.

[DonF]

Miller dogs are Pointer's. What do they have to do with red or Irish Setter's?