Red setter vs irish setter

RyanDoolittle
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:39 pm

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:35 am

DonF wrote:Miller dogs are Pointer's. What do they have to do with red or Irish Setter's?

Right over your head eh don?

#1 he was being sarcastic
#2 i believe he was suggesting with the Miller blood put it it may produce some dogs he would consider worth owning.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:57 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Red Delicious wrote:
rinker wrote:I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a red setter puppy that had some 'Miller' influence in his pedigree.
I'm not familiar with "Miller" can you expand on the breeding and kennel?

Thanks

Craig O.

Millers on line. Millers Silver Bullet. Google it.

Might add a little more white than desired but it would put some style into the puppies.
Have no idea why you would even consider a shorthaired white dog would do more for style than what the breed already possess. Pointers are great dogs but are no better than many others in a lot of areas and style is one of them IMO.

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:28 pm

Ezzy333, I have been quite successful with Brittanys for 25+ years but regrettably, I have to disagree with you. The more white on a dog, the more "I" like it. An animated flashy white dog is hard to take your eyes off of! Whether it's a pointer or a setter, that tail can really bring lofty classiness to a whole new level. JMO
What I have struggled with is why anyone would want a bird dog that is virtually camo, dark enough to disappear in 1/2 light or worse yet, is deer colored but again that's just me and what/where I hunt.

mask
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by mask » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:00 pm

Ezzy I'm pretty sure pointer blood has been infused into other breeds to improve style, intensity, endurance, and run as a matter of fact I'm positive of it. I read an article way back when that English setter and I think a yellow and white setter were bred into Irish setter to put some hunt in what was turning into a show dog. I think the yellow and white setter is related to the Irish but it has been quite a while since the article so I really don't remember. I have not heard of pointer blood in red setters but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

RyanDoolittle
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:39 pm

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
RyanDoolittle wrote:
Red Delicious wrote:

Millers on line. Millers Silver Bullet. Google it.

Might add a little more white than desired but it would put some style into the puppies.
Have no idea why you would even consider a shorthaired white dog would do more for style than what the breed already possess. Pointers are great dogs but are no better than many others in a lot of areas and style is one of them IMO.
To each their own. Pointers have been used for decades to increase range, stamina, and style including the english setter; which is what I believe is the breed of choice some in the Brittany community are using to increase the traits I just mentioned.

DD you are right a white dog against any background (other than snow covered) is easier to see than a dark one. A dog that draws the eye of the judge is one that does not get over looked.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3801
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by DonF » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:25 pm

The only drawback of my Stormy is his color, very hard to see in low light and at a distance. I'm not so sure that being able to see him is by product of his color or if I haver looked for a dog of my own before that wasn't vastly white. If you haven't gone out and watched a predominately white dog run, try it. They stick out like a beacon in the field, unless it is in snow. Liver roan dog's blend in very well, not sure how anyone see's them sometime's. er seem to stan

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:57 pm

mask wrote:Ezzy I'm pretty sure pointer blood has been infused into other breeds to improve style, intensity, endurance, and run as a matter of fact I'm positive of it. I read an article way back when that English setter and I think a yellow and white setter were bred into Irish setter to put some hunt in what was turning into a show dog. I think the yellow and white setter is related to the Irish but it has been quite a while since the article so I really don't remember. I have not heard of pointer blood in red setters but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.
Was this before or after they used the foxhound to put some run and style in the pointer? And some say the pointer from those crossed with the GSP added bird finding ability to the pointer while adding some style to the GSP. My point is there are 10,000 facts or rumors floating around and we all can believe whatever ones we want. We also know there are a few recorded facts that were done intestinally in the open as people tried to either improve or change a breed of dog. And it still is all subjective as to what was accomplished.

And by the way, I never made a statement about the color of our dogs except that pointers tend to be white in this country. I do agree with the white being great in the field.

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by JKP » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:01 pm

The only drawback of my Stormy is his color, very hard to see in low light and at a distance. I'm not so sure that being able to see him is by product of his color or if I haver looked for a dog of my own before that wasn't vastly white. If you haven't gone out and watched a predominately white dog run, try it. They stick out like a beacon in the field, unless it is in snow.
This is probably the reason that the owners of non-white dogs shoot so few birds....they can't find their dogs. I'm assuming that electronics don't work on non-white dogs...beepers, GPS and such. I hope they'll be coming out with models for
darker colored dogs too!! :lol:

mask
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by mask » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:06 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mask wrote:Ezzy I'm pretty sure pointer blood has been infused into other breeds to improve style, intensity, endurance, and run as a matter of fact I'm positive of it. I read an article way back when that English setter and I think a yellow and white setter were bred into Irish setter to put some hunt in what was turning into a show dog. I think the yellow and white setter is related to the Irish but it has been quite a while since the article so I really don't remember. I have not heard of pointer blood in red setters but I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.
Was this before or after they used the foxhound to put some run and style in the pointer? And some say the pointer from those crossed with the GSP added bird finding ability to the pointer while adding some style to the GSP. My point is there are 10,000 facts or rumors floating around and we all can believe whatever ones we want. We also know there are a few recorded facts that were done intestinally in the open as people tried to either improve or change a breed of dog. And it still is all subjective as to what was accomplished.

And by the way, I never made a statement about the color of our dogs except that pointers tend to be white in this country. I do agree with the white being great in the field.
lol nice try lol

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:51 pm

Right now, we just got a pile more snow. And while white dogs are not as visible in this stuff, I find I'm getting too old to throw my dog far enough to be effective anyway. ;)

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3801
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by DonF » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:20 pm

JKP wrote:
The only drawback of my Stormy is his color, very hard to see in low light and at a distance. I'm not so sure that being able to see him is by product of his color or if I haver looked for a dog of my own before that wasn't vastly white. If you haven't gone out and watched a predominately white dog run, try it. They stick out like a beacon in the field, unless it is in snow.
This is probably the reason that the owners of non-white dogs shoot so few birds....they can't find their dogs. I'm assuming that electronics don't work on non-white dogs...beepers, GPS and such. I hope they'll be coming out with models for
darker colored dogs too!! :lol:
If I turn Stormy loose for a run, he get's the GPS and an e-collar. If he's into a bit of cover a hundred yards or so out, I can't see him though cover that I can see both Squirt and Bodie through. I have to admit that it's not as bad as at first but now I'm getting conditioned to look for a dark dog. Still can't see him at night until he slams into me, he enjoy's that! I think I have enough years left for one more puppy after Squirt and Bodie are gone, they are 8 now. Been planing on another shorthair, I love thosr dogs! But am re-thinking it and it might have to be another Red. Maybe I can get both. My grandson will be getting old enough by then, maybe I should have one for him!

Meller
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1046
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Meller » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:17 pm

After you get used to looking for a dog of any color, it isn't hard to spot any of them on point.

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:56 pm

After you experience watching a predominantly white dog, you won't want a dark dog. You see, for me, working my dog means watching her/him ALL the time (when they show) and not just when they are on point. The grace, agility, pace, fluidity, animation, gait, relentlessness, application (smarts) and style make every second they are on the ground absolutely therapeutic - again, not just when they point.
Just got in from working a cracker of a pointer and a delightful red setter! It's good for the soul!!!
The pointer's retrieves were decent and he carried the last bird about 300 yards back to my truck. He loaded up in his kennel without putting it down for a second - very soft mouthed too. (Didn't kill a bird for the red yet. Need to do some more work but soon....)
Both dogs are fancy and looked scintillating on their birds too!
The red looks good with all this snow but as much as I like this dog, I would never acquire a red or predominantly dark dog. I would be giving up too much in terms of the over-all experience. Hard to enjoy a dog I can't see.

Meller
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1046
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Meller » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:05 pm

Did not mean to insinuate that you could just see them on point, I have had dog's of all colors and any of them could posses the attribute's that were mentioned such as grace, agility, fluidity, animation, gait, smarts and so on, although color had nothing to do with a dog necessarily having these attributes,
like I said, I have had dogs of all colors with these attributes and I have had white dogs that didn't posses these attributes, not to say that under the right field conditions all colors are hard to pick out not just on point!

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:55 pm

Meller, you missed my point (no pun intended). It's harder to see a dark dog if he does have these attributes unless he's very close or in sparse/open cover. Perhaps not so much on the prairies but in grouse/woodcock cover, dark dogs are a restriction. If he's actually "productive" on wild birds, it's hard enough to see a white dog but the more white the better.
A dog that is not attractive "eye candy" on the ground is simply NOT, regardless of color so why mention a white dog that doesn't have these attributes?
If a dog (regardless of color) does not have these attributes, I can't call him, "Mine".

SRB
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:43 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by SRB » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:42 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
RyanDoolittle wrote:It is my understanding the irish were crossed with american field english setters to make reds.

Your right there are a few irish about but not many.
The outcrossing was done decades ago and it was VERY limited in scope. it was done in the light of day, with full knowledge, and agreement with the FDSB. It was done to re-capture the hunting abilities of the Irish Setter which had been lost, allegedly due to illicit crossbreeding of Irish setters with Afghan hounds to enhance their coats which yielded a sharp nosed, long, lanky dog with a flowing coat of hair, nearly zero desire and ability to hunt to the gun and a brain the size of a pea...at least according so some who should know. But they LOOKED pretty.

If the Irish Setter fanciers who were trying to restore the breed to its proper place in the sporting dog world had done things "on the sly", there would not be an issue today. But they did it right, and got punished for being open and honest.

We are probably about seven to ten generations removed from that crossbreeding. The influence of that long ago event, is minimal, but, it continues to be the EXCUSE that the Irish Setter Club of America is using to keep those dogs out of the AKC registry and out of their field events. Sad...and pathetic.

Just one man's interpretation of the events.

RayG
Ray,

Ed Schnettler was a lifelong friend of my dad's so I grew-up around Red dogs and my brother worked for him as a lad. My dad built Ed's kennel and I spent a lot of time around there as a kid. I am impressed with your knowledge of the breed given you are not a Red Setter guy. You have it pretty much nailed. The best thing for the dogs would have been to eliminate any restrictions. The poster who mentioned they had less restriction because they could register their dogs AKC is true in theory but far from reality in the vast majority of cases. The people with AKC dogs with a few rare exceptions did not breed to an FDSB dog even though they were superior. How many AKC dogs were bred to Desperado or Bearcat and then registered AKC? If it happened it was rare and it should of been the norm.

The two groups would have gotten together if it were really about the dogs. This was never going to happen with AKC because IRSCA was completely dominated by show folks that had no interest in promoting the field attributes. They should have dumped the AKC and banded together under the FDSB. It has served the Red Setters quite well. Bearcat has more open breed placements than any dog in history and Abra has the second most. I would guess that Red Setters have more open breed FDSB champion placements than all other breeds combined outside of Pointers and English Setters.

Your account of the crossing and it's scope is also accurate although there were a few done along the way that were "off the books". The photo below is the great Saturday Night Ed who was a big part of bringing back the breed.
Image

User avatar
NLsetter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 10:59 am
Location: Newfoundland Canada

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by NLsetter » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:41 pm

Dirty Dawger wrote:After you experience watching a predominantly white dog, you won't want a dark dog. You see, for me, working my dog means watching her/him ALL the time (when they show) and not just when they are on point. The grace, agility, pace, fluidity, animation, gait, relentlessness, application (smarts) and style make every second they are on the ground absolutely therapeutic - again, not just when they point.
Just got in from working a cracker of a pointer and a delightful red setter! It's good for the soul!!!
The pointer's retrieves were decent and he carried the last bird about 300 yards back to my truck. He loaded up in his kennel without putting it down for a second - very soft mouthed too. (Didn't kill a bird for the red yet. Need to do some more work but soon....)
Both dogs are fancy and looked scintillating on their birds too!
The red looks good with all this snow but as much as I like this dog, I would never acquire a red or predominantly dark dog. I would be giving up too much in terms of the over-all experience. Hard to enjoy a dog I can't see.
I have owned english, Gordons and Irish. Might want to get your eyes tested as I have to say I have never had to look harder for a dark dog than a white dog.

mask
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 485
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:05 am
Location: Idaho

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by mask » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:45 pm

I'll bet dirty dawger has very good dog sight. Ezzy needs his facts checked way more than dirty dawger needs his eyes checked. Highly amusing thread so everybody is having fun. :D

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:28 pm

NLsetter wrote:
Dirty Dawger wrote:After you experience watching a predominantly white dog, you won't want a dark dog. You see, for me, working my dog means watching her/him ALL the time (when they show) and not just when they are on point. The grace, agility, pace, fluidity, animation, gait, relentlessness, application (smarts) and style make every second they are on the ground absolutely therapeutic - again, not just when they point.
Just got in from working a cracker of a pointer and a delightful red setter! It's good for the soul!!!
The pointer's retrieves were decent and he carried the last bird about 300 yards back to my truck. He loaded up in his kennel without putting it down for a second - very soft mouthed too. (Didn't kill a bird for the red yet. Need to do some more work but soon....)
Both dogs are fancy and looked scintillating on their birds too!
The red looks good with all this snow but as much as I like this dog, I would never acquire a red or predominantly dark dog. I would be giving up too much in terms of the over-all experience. Hard to enjoy a dog I can't see.
I have owned english, Gordons and Irish. Might want to get your eyes tested as I have to say I have never had to look harder for a dark dog than a white dog.
It is a well known fact that camo is based on shades of the same predominant color you are wanting to hide in Believe it or not but white is a dead give away as far as hiding. That is the main reason albinos have little chance to survive for long in the wild because they can not hide. But when it snows the opposite is true. That is why rabbits to birds turn white in northern climates This is a silly argument as any one that has hunted or tried to find animals in the wild. My Dad use to tell me some people would argue that white was black but I had no idea they would end up here on the forum. Hope this doesn't cause Mask to lose it.

Mountaineer
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1630
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:23 pm
Location: State?...The one where ruffed grouse were.

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:14 pm

My oh my...arguing about whether dog color can aid in the enjoyment of the dog....or rather, expressing the view that enjoyment is somehow less re a dark coat color on a dog.
I reckon I'm glad that I "enjoy" any of my dogs apart from their appearance in the field....apart from the cherry on the cake, so to speak.

As an aside, my white setter can be difficult to see in a wet woods or when his coat is less than pristine....shadows cast in the woods, dips in terrain and more all go to the reality of any dog standing out.....or not, when on point.
When moving?...never have I heard a bell ringing past and sought shelter from fear of some imagined wood sprite playing games....I always note the dog in close proximity to the bell.

The real world often finds the shallowness of personal preference expressed to be put solidly in it's place....last, for any but the individual.
We all love seeing our dogs be a birddog but somehow, I doubt a dog with a dark-colored coat(or a camo-ed tri-color) renders us unhappy as they go about doing what they do...well.
That would assume too little of...us.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3801
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by DonF » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:49 am

The thing that I don't understand is why the Red Setter doesn't have a place of it's own in AKC and FDSB. I'm sure there are some Irish Setter's that can compete but relatively few. That was the story I read about why the Red came into existence in the first place. I really don't get the problem with that. Shoot, it seem's to me that everyone with one refer to them as Red Setter's in the first place.

I suspect that through the year's there has been a few cross breeding, most likely with English Setter's. I've heard a lot of claim's that shorthairs have been crossed with pointer's, I don't recall what the Britt's were claimed to have been crossed with. Most breed's have been crossed with something else to improve the breed, or so I'm told. I suspect this happen's more than we thing. King Kennel's got into trouble for questionable breeding's, didn't Feral Miller make the same effort? How about the Afghan's said to be crossed with Irish to produce longer hair, maybe the Gordon too? I just don't understand why this separation isn't recognized and accepted for what it is. It must have taken to get the Red to where it is and in some small order has been accepted by AKC but only if these dog's acknowledged to be out cross's can prove pureness by DNA testing! Hey, let's DNA all breeds. Akc will not accept my Stormy without DNA testing and I think I read it has to be done not only on him but his mom and dad too! Listen up, the RSFTCA acknowledge's they are from and pout cross to an English Setter. The name of the bitch I haven't found anywhere, just that the guy's doing this looked far and wide for the best field Irish they could get and crossed it to 1946 Nat Ch Mississippi Zev. Far as I am concerned the Red's are a different breed of dog and so are the Irish!

User avatar
dan v
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Central MN

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:08 pm

Don,

Red's DO have their own place with FDSB.

User avatar
KwikIrish
Rank: Champion
Posts: 373
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:14 am
Location: Ft Riley, KS

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:35 pm

Dirty Dawger wrote:Ezzy333, I have been quite successful with Brittanys for 25+ years but regrettably, I have to disagree with you. The more white on a dog, the more "I" like it. An animated flashy white dog is hard to take your eyes off of! Whether it's a pointer or a setter, that tail can really bring lofty classiness to a whole new level. JMO.
Remind me of your name so I can be sure to never enter under you.
And BTW high snappy tails aren't limited to the white gene. And class in taste is clearly not a requirement to be allowed to post on this board! ;)

User avatar
whatsnext
Rank: Champion
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:43 pm
Location: bourbonnais il

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by whatsnext » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:05 pm

At a trial once I had my liver roan tri color and my black roan staked out and a guy said " I hate f'in roans and you have two, I hate f'in roans" . I was a little surprised by his honesty but hey everyone has an opinion. Sometimes they are hard to see but my only problem with darker colors is heat tolerance Especially black. If the sun is out and it's 40 degrees my black roan will get hot not so much with the liver. I just got a pup that is white with a little liver so I can see how the other half lives.

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3801
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by DonF » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:36 pm

dan v wrote:Don,

Red's DO have their own place with FDSB.
Your right but they register them as Irish in ADSB too. Just because your red is registered with FDSB doesn't mean you can cross it to AKC. I understand who we have to thank for that is the Irish Setter Club of America. Simple fix, Designate the FDSB Irish as Reds and AKC can do the same. You know the only breed you can't just cross register is the Irish?

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2440
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by shags » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:40 am

It's not so simple to establish Reds as a breed, Don. Check out the rigamarole for pedigrees, stud book, breed club, breed standard, and number of dog needed to be considered, and all that jazz. It can take years. And as long as current crossbreeding is going on, there will be problems with the whole ball of wax.

Register as a user for Setters-L then go read the archives during the time reciprosity was under discussion. It'll leave you speechless. As long as bench famciers control 90% or so of the ISCA, it'll stay the way it is now. If only the BOD had votes, there would be a chance, but allowing votes by the membership, it's dead in the water IMO.

User avatar
Grange
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:24 pm
Location: Green Bay, WI

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Grange » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:57 am

ezzy333 wrote: It is a well known fact that camo is based on shades of the same predominant color you are wanting to hide in Believe it or not but white is a dead give away as far as hiding. That is the main reason albinos have little chance to survive for long in the wild because they can not hide. But when it snows the opposite is true. That is why rabbits to birds turn white in northern climates This is a silly argument as any one that has hunted or tried to find animals in the wild. My Dad use to tell me some people would argue that white was black but I had no idea they would end up here on the forum. Hope this doesn't cause Mask to lose it.
Not a red setter or an Irish setter, but a darker colored GSP. Decide for yourself which dog is easier to pick out. These were taken at a cover dog trial several years ago. Both dog were moving pretty fast.

Image
Image

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:18 pm

Excellent example Grange. Grange, I'm not about to address personal attacks from others but I will ask you one question. Would adding a long tail on the dog in the second pic make it more visible?
In further support of your point Grange, these pics were taken within the eye of the camera which is hard enough! Try doing the same thing in early season where I hunt grouse/woodcock! Let's put it this way - there is no point in bringing a video camera but you might be able to negotiate your way to your dog for a quick pic, perhaps.
It's hard enough seeing white through early season leafy cover, dogwoods, hawthorn but a white dog helps a lot. Add to this that early morning and later in the afternoon can produce more opportunities for grouse - lower light conditions.
Later in the season, without the leaves, you can enjoy even more of that white dog and that is a BIG part of my pleasure - watching dogs and not just when on point.
I hunt dark dogs too. My best friend and hunting partner has a terrific (dark) GSP but even he struggles with dark dog visibility sometimes (he's much younger than I am too) and has openly shared that sentiment.
Hey a good dog is a good dog. Color alone does not a good dog make. I'd rather have a good dark dog than a crap white dog but since I get to pick what I'm going to feed, raise, train, take hunting, and subsequent to searching out the best breed/breeding for my applications........I personally prefer it has LOTS of white for it's eye candy value, practical visibility and to an extend heat tolerance.
Hey Grange, that top pic looks a lot like my girl. Thank for sharing.
Last edited by Dirty Dawger on Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:37 pm

Hey Whatsnext, I hear you. Years ago, I chose to run a 26 lb Brittany bitch against pointers (horseback) and setters (cover trials) and know first hand what it's like to play "the odds". Did alright too!
You wouldn't have to worry 'bout me being in the judge's saddle. If your roan or solid liver did the job, the white dogs that didn't do the job ain't winnin' from this judge. Color is just color not ability.
Good luck with your next dog. May she/he bring you MANY years of fond memories!

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by PntrRookie » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:42 pm

PntrRookie wrote:First (and only) red setter to win a National Open Shooting Dog Championship that was open to ALL breeds...beat 30+ pointers and setters.
OK Back to the topic, always better with photos...

Image

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:18 pm

That is one gorgeous Red setter!
Just sent one home yesterday. Real fancy dog but the weather here is just killer!
Got it handling and holding like a gem. He's very fancy on point but not quite that fancy! ....congrats on a super specimen PntrRookie!
Gives yuh goose bumps, don't it?

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:25 pm

Hey PntrRookie, that is also a very fancy setter in your avatar too! Is that one of Scott Berg's setters? Looks like it's got some Hytest blood or....?

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by PntrRookie » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:50 pm

Dirty Dawger wrote:...congrats on a super specimen PntrRookie!
Not mine, owned by a friend of mine. I have seen & trained w/him MANY times and handled his littermates. VERY classy on the ground and pointing.
Dirty Dawger wrote:...that is also a very fancy setter in your avatar too! Is that one of Scott Berg's setters? Looks like it's got some Hytest blood or....?
Not a Berg breeding. He is from Tom Waite at Dale Creek Gundogs (who also trained and handles that red setter pictured above). Does have CH Bergs Head Turner in him - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=5635

User avatar
KwikIrish
Rank: Champion
Posts: 373
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:14 am
Location: Ft Riley, KS

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by KwikIrish » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:05 pm

Pics are worth 1,000 words!Image
Image

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:01 am

PntrRookie, met Tom some time ago...trying to remember where (came with the gray hair!). He is obviously doing a super job for you guys.
Thought I could see Berg breeding in that dog. ........very nice!
Ahah.....Grouse Feather Mark - that's what I mistook for Hytest! Should have known better.
KwikIrish, looks like you have a very good prospect there. Lots of class on birds and at such a young age!
Dang....I want a pup!!!

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:48 am

Dirty Dawger wrote:PntrRookie, met Tom some time ago...trying to remember where (came with the gray hair!).
Tom has done a great job for us. His breeding (my pup) and training have helped NUMEROUS amateurs get started in gundogs and now trialing. He will give his shirt off his back to help anyone! He will be running many red setters (the one above included) down at Chandlerville, IL this March at their national futurity/championship. I have also been asked to come run a couple in the Amateur CH. I have not decided if I can go or not. I am leaning towards heading down.
Dirty Dawger wrote:...Grouse Feather Mark - that's what I mistook for Hytest!
I have followed the dams side of my pedigree for 2-3 generations now and can say without a doubt that Mark has left his mark (no pun intended) on this line. The dam of my pup was sired by Mark and all those pups have unbelievable style, tremendous run and overall great demeanor. I have another grandson of Mark (pictured below that I got right from Dr. Dunbar) that falls right in line with all those same traits. He is as honest as the day is long and a backing fool!
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3230

Image

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:49 am

Fancy, fancy, fancy - high at both ends! What a ped. too!
A young man I mentored took a AF champion bitch to Allan and bred her to GF Mark too. I worked with a pup from this litter, "Eve". She is an absolutely delightful dog! I counseled the owner on acquiring this particular setter over a pointer. A mutual friend has pointers so it was a bit of a hard sell. They took Eve out west on the prairies wondering if she could hold up to the pointers. When they returned, they had nick-named her, "Freight Train"! They were very complimentary and the one guy - a hard core pointer man said, "You made me a believer."
I knew I recognized that style! .......congrats on a real looker.
This "Eve" setter is a dream in the home and follows the owner's daughter around like they're connected at the hip. Just a real gem of a dog.
If you can go to the trial, I would but don't get your butt in a sling on my account. :)

Dirty Dawger
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:48 am

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by Dirty Dawger » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:00 am

My apologies to the OP for my part in taking this entertaining exchange off on a tangent.
It sure was fun though!
Last edited by Dirty Dawger on Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:19 am

Dirty Dawger wrote:If you can go to the trial...
If you have the time, I would highly recommend that anyone wanting to see a lot of Red Setters, go to their National Spring CH http://redsetterchampionship.blogspot.com/coming up March 11-15, 2015 at Jim Edgar Wildlife Mgmt Area near Chandlerville, IL. They will have walking and horseback stakes - Futurity thru Open AA Championships. Fazenbaker, Hidalgo, Liermann, Ober, Dr. Boser, Zdanczewicz, Edwards, Melvin, plus others should all be there.

User avatar
NLsetter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 10:59 am
Location: Newfoundland Canada

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by NLsetter » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:36 pm

KwikIrish, those are some fine looking pups.

User avatar
NLsetter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 10:59 am
Location: Newfoundland Canada

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by NLsetter » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:45 pm

With points I have always been partial to more traditional setter stances. I dont compete in trials and really have no interest in doing so. While I can appreciate the high tails and so called style thats been created in the setter, my preference is still seeing one that's low. My guy is somewhere in between.

Image

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3801
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by DonF » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:12 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
PntrRookie wrote:First (and only) red setter to win a National Open Shooting Dog Championship that was open to ALL breeds...beat 30+ pointers and setters.
OK Back to the topic, always better with photos...

Image
Nice dog!

User avatar
S'setter
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 8:37 am
Location: The Right side of Washington

Re: Red setter vs irish setter

Post by S'setter » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:19 am

Although I know it's not a very popular opinion but I prefer a level to 10 O'clock tail...
NLsetter wrote:With points I have always been partial to more traditional setter stances. I dont compete in trials and really have no interest in doing so. While I can appreciate the high tails and so called style thats been created in the setter, my preference is still seeing one that's low. My guy is somewhere in between.

Image

Post Reply