Woodcock habits and habitat

[Neil]

On another thread we discussed some of us have witnessed more Woodcock running from under point that in the past. It was suggested that thanks to the efforts of conservation groups the average age of Woodcock has increased. I was not aware of this, but I would think the banding records would prove it.

Another change, I think, is their expanded range. I have found them in extreme Northwest South Dakota in the early Fall, and North Texas on a frozen day in January. I have found birds year round in West Tennessee, including birds mating, nesting, and babies on the ground, in other words a native population.

As I have been in all those locations over the years, these findings are new to me.
Don't claim what this means, but I want to learn.

[Becassier]

There is a wing survey we do every year, we send in the wings of birds we harvest and they give us back an accounting of how many adults vs. juveniles we take every year. I think this study has more accurate accounting of the numbers of adults vs juveniles taken each year as well as male and female counts. There are studies with gps units being attached to Becasse in Europe as to migrating habits of the birds. Quite interesting on their flight patterns and now they have started the same studies here in the states in limited numbers. The American Woodcock is smaller than the European Becasse, so the transmitters we use have to be applied to the female woodcock since they are bigger than the males.


http://www.ringwoodcock.net/

http://youtu.be/e4b9qCullaE

[Neil]

There is a wing survey we do every year, we send in the wings of birds we harvest and they give us back an accounting of how many adults vs. juveniles we take every year. I think this study has more accurate accounting of the numbers of adults vs juveniles taken each year as well as male and female counts. There are studies with gps units being attached to Becasse in Europe as to migrating habits of the birds. Quite interesting on their flight patterns and now they have started the same studies here in the states in limited numbers. The American Woodcock is smaller than the European Becasse, so the transmitters we use have to be applied to the female woodcock since they are bigger than the males.


http://www.ringwoodcock.net/

http://youtu.be/e4b9qCullaE

I have sent in enough wings to make a couple three feather beds.

They put telemetry transmitters on bats, so you are saying the 10% size difference dictates females only?

Not sure how age means a propensity to run (or scuttle, as they are not very fleet). So in my first 30 years of hunting them from Canada to Louisiana I only found first year birds? That seems unlikely. And the last I read they were still in decline.

[Becassier]

There is a wing survey we do every year, we send in the wings of birds we harvest and they give us back an accounting of how many adults vs. juveniles we take every year. I think this study has more accurate accounting of the numbers of adults vs juveniles taken each year as well as male and female counts. There are studies with gps units being attached to Becasse in Europe as to migrating habits of the birds. Quite interesting on their flight patterns and now they have started the same studies here in the states in limited numbers. The American Woodcock is smaller than the European Becasse, so the transmitters we use have to be applied to the female woodcock since they are bigger than the males.


http://www.ringwoodcock.net/

http://youtu.be/e4b9qCullaE

I have sent in enough wings to make a couple three feather beds.

They put telemetry transmitters on bats, so you are saying the 10% size difference dictates females only?

Not sure how age means a propensity to run (or scuttle, as they are not very fleet). So in my first 30 years of hunting them from Canada to Louisiana I only found first year birds? That seems unlikely. And the last I read they were still in decline.

IMO loss of habitat is the main contributor to the decline.

Whether pheasant, chucker, grouse or woodcock juveniles will tend to sit rather than run. This is just my observation also take into account environment i.e. ground cover = survival tactics.

And yes the 10% body weight makes a difference with the sizes and weight of the transmitters if you have read any of the studies you would know this. As for running birds, my theory is based on MY OPINION... If birds are getting smarter = older birds, environment, evolution, or the lack of good dog work. YOU can pick what you want to believe, I am not here to argue with you, only to throw out thoughts as a fellow woodcock hunter.

Keep sending in your wings and filling pillows or just sit back and disagree. Or you could go out, hug a tree and buy a hybrid car. I on the other hand tend to get involved with the restoration of the habitat.

[Neil]

No need to get testy, I am trying to learn.

I thought you said that habitat improvement was why the birds are older. Now you say the population decline is from the lack of habitat. Have you been drinking or do I have a comprehension problem?

I have read a few studies suggesting they only put telemetry on females, but no one has explained how bats do fine.

No wonder I can't understand what is going on,

[Becassier]

No need to get testy, I am trying to learn.

I thought you said that habitat improvement was why the birds are older. Now you say the population decline is from the lack of habitat. Have you been drinking or do I have a comprehension problem?

I have read a few studies suggesting they only put telemetry on females, but no one has explained how bats do fine.

No wonder I can't understand what is going on,

Sorry if I was short with you last night, it was a long day and I misread the tone of your answer.

In states such as MI, PA, MA, MN, WI etc there have been habitat improvement, forthe local and flight birds. If the habitat has not been improved in their migration flights it seems that would have something to do with the decline. Weather conditions have a major effect on the hatches, too much rain, snow, cold temps could wipe them out.

The weather during the migration can also have an effect.. We went to a place this year that has always held quite a few birds, this year we hardly saw any. Why? We think the birds may have stalled someplace else because of the weather on the way back to their nesting grounds.

Our 2013 wing survey was 50% juveniles and 50% adults, we have noticed that on resident birds the adults will run more (I say they are adults because they are smarter ) while the juveniles and, flight birds seem to hold tighter as well.

Unfortunately we have very little research on woodcock here in the states, in Europe they have been researching them for a longer time frame and have more data.

The link below is an article on the transmitters and birds in the study.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_267 ... n-woodcock

[Mountaineer]

...IMO loss of habitat is the main contributor to the decline.....

Woodcock are difficult to study...always have been.
I would reckon that more interpretations are made re studies with them than with many upland birds, comparably.
Certainly, habitat loss or change matters over the length of the migration corridors as does what happens at the end of the funnel re hunting, habitat and resulting guesses at population viability.

I tend to believe that the woodcock are not in decline to the degree previously experienced, especially over the central path.
Whether this is due to humans being wiser in harvest or the use of chemicals or something else..I don't know.
Probably, a mix is at work if populations have stabilized a bit.
The fella up in Quebec who has done all the work on noting woodcock deformities might shine a little light on why...then again, perhaps not.
Hunters may not always be the best judges of woodcock viability...hitting a flight just right or just wrong can give a flawed assumption.

The USFWS woodcock wing deal is interesting but I'm not sure of the continuing value.
It does maintain a focus on the bird, a la the Wingbee and more and that alone is important so, I guess it has that going for it.
Much of helping the woodcock today sees a start at the gunner level, to me.

As to trundling...yes, they appear to be trundling ......more.
I doubt tho that the answer why is at all limited or connected to age or population strengths or weaknesses.
I suspect the reason results a bit from hunters being more noticing along with Time.
Who knows?...a portion of the marvel is in the unknown.

[Becassier]

Who knows?...a portion of the marvel is in the unknown.

Absolutely, they are unusual little creatures

[Sharon]

Here's something we do in ON

BSC Research

Rigorous scientific observations are necessary for effective conservation planning. Bird Studies Canada uses sound investigative science to "get questions answered" for bird conservation. To achieve this, BSC manages data collection at many scales, carries out rigorous analysis of these data, then provides this information in a useable form to managers, decision makers, and the broader public.Our research covers a wide range of species and topics at local, regional, national, and international levels. Many of the projects involve data collection by "citizen scientists."

What they have found over the last 3 years:

something is looking better:

9 July 2014 – The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has published their 2014 American Woodcock Population Status report, which includes data collected by Citizen Scientists in Ontario. The number of American Woodcocks in Ontario has declined by 0.9% per year between 1968 and 2013. Fortunately, this negative trend continues to lessen, with no significant change in population between 2013-14 – or in the last decade.

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... in+Ontario

Maybe not loss of habitat for grassland birds:

http://www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/ ... 30225.html

[Mountaineer]

....Maybe not loss of habitat for grassland birds. http://www.abcbirds.org/newsandreports/ ... 30225.html

I believe that the ABC is a vocal proponent for banning lead shot.

Their mention of the pheasant as regards declines from pesticides implies less of an issue than habitat change or loss, weather and predation.
An agenda may be showing when one decline factor is placed so differently than experience, recent experience, indicates wise.

imho

[Watermen]

As a person who grew up hunting woodcock and grouse literally out my front door, their habits have changed to my observation as well. I too, one state north of Neil, have found the woodcock nesting in what I had previously been told was too far south. In 2012 , a dry year, I found 3 recently hatched broods and one nest while hunting Morels close to the house. Last spring on the side of the road I saw a crow harrassing a timberdoodle while she kept jumping up and relighting. I stopped and the crow was obviously after her newborns of which I counted two. They appear to have a regular breeding population in sc MO. When hunting with my newest start last year, it was difficult to get the birds to hold like the classic training birds I grew up with. They do seem to be running (trundling) more, but they're no different than the wild quail that are left. Wild quail locally would give any prairie rooster in Dec. a run for his money. Evolution does not take that long in some instances and one could use the pepper moth as a prime biological example. For sure wild birds run to escape us at times. they claim the grouse have become skittish, but this fall I found them on my property in Nothern Wi where they have been for 30 years and they held well there and on surrounding parcels as well. They were certainly not the tough to pin bird the east coasters claim. They were far easier to work than the wild quail or pheasant I pursued this fall. It might be our perspectives change or bird habits are regional. Evolution?

[ezzy333]

I think you will find behavior changes are due to learned experiences and not necessarily evolution. If mother has learned to run and not fly babies will act the same way. I think this same pattern is what makes some people think the dam has more influence in the offspring than the sire in dogs and many other animals. Mothers tend to teach and that gets mistaken for genetic influence. Short period changes are learned behavior and long term changes are generally genetic.

Ezzy