AKC field trial question

[mountaindogs]

2 actually
1) in open gun dog, non-retrieving. Is the handler expected to collar the dog off of point after the blank or call the dog hands off?

2) also in open gun dog. Does the honor need to be without verbal reminder?

[shags]

Generally you can collar your dog after birdwork ( i say generally because used to be the versatiles had a no-collaring rule, but that has been mostly dropped; I am not sure if it still applies with GWP trials, haven't been to one in a long time). Heeling a dog off shows an added level of finish/manners IMO; not a big deal, but you never know when just a little bit extra will help

You can whoa your dog to a back, but it sure doesn't impress your judges. You can caution your dog after he stops, too, and it shouldn't count against you.

[Neil]

When I am judging if the dog shows he is fully STW&S, you can collar or call the dog to you, but will get no extra credit for hands off.

A caution into a back is acceptable, but should not be excessive, and a back should not be avoided. You will get no extra credit for an independent back.

I am much more concerned with demonstrated bird finding ability.

Both apply to AKC and AF.

Neil

[mountaindogs]

The dog will call off. Just didn't want do a handler faux pax.. If I was supposed to collar him. But the honor will be hit or miss. Mostly we are just helping bump up entries if needed for a last minute trial.

[shags]

You can avoid a back by avoiding the situation entirely... handle your dog so he'll find his own birds if he tends to be behind his bracemate. If that means directing him away from a *possible* developing situation, well.....

If you know your dog is likely to blow a back, you're better off obviously avoiding it rather than putting the other dog in jeopardy. You will be knocked for doing it, but you're done anyway if he refuses to honor. As a handler/trainer, I'll take the lumps instead of letting my dog blow a back in a situation where Jesus isn't going to be available for a meeting

Good luck at the trial...have fun and enjoy your dog.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Just a thought..... A dog never won a stake by honoring a brace mate but many have been ordered up for not honoring. I try to keep separation between my dog and the other if possible and without "hacking".

[RayGubernat]

Just a thought..... A dog never won a stake by honoring a brace mate but many have been ordered up for not honoring. I try to keep separation between my dog and the other if possible and without "hacking".

It is my understanding that , in AKC stakes it is now completely acceptable to collar the dog after a find and walk it away before releasing it to hunt again.

As far as backing is concerned, a back is a back, is a back...pretty much. It makes a better impression if the dog stops and styles up on sight of the pointing dog, but as long as the dog stops somewhere before it goes in front of the other dog(or blows by it)...that is good enough. Sure...a nice stylish back from thirty yards away is a beautiful thing and any dog that executes one is going to be well thought of. But a dog that roads in and stops a few feet behind the pointing dog has still backed. ... just not on sight alone. not as clean a situation, but still a back. The dog that needs to be whoaed to stop it shows even less manners...but it is still a back if the dog stops.

All those things MIGHT come in to play if the two judges were forced to split hairs to put up the best dog, but as Neil said, it is more about finding birds first and sticking them.

I personally see nothing wrong with choosing to send a dog down the right side of a field when the other dog is already ahead and running down the left side. If one can avoid a back without being too obvious about it, I see nothing wrong with that because a back won't win it for you but a blown back will darn sure lose it.

RayG

[AZ Brittany Guy]

By the way, AKC says that failure to honor should be severely panelized but not be a disqualifying infraction. But judges commonly disqualify dogs that fail to do it. Be aware and be prepared to accept it.

[Sharon]

My setter is a reliable backer UNLESS it's one of those darn Brittanys with no tail. Then it's a crap shoot.

[Neil]

My setter is a reliable backer UNLESS it's one of those darn Brittanys with no tail. Then it's a crap shoot.

Had a well known trialer tell the judges that at breakaway, I told them it shouldn't be a problem if the long legged pointer couldn't beat the little Britt to the birds he wasn't going to win anyway.

[fuzznut]

All breeds at All AKC trials may be either collared or heeled away from a find.

[larue]

Just remember good judges watch and use everything
In a trial.
A dog who honors with class is going to look good
And a good judge will appreciate the honor
remember a honor shows team work between
The dogs and is a huge deal when actually hunting wild birds
A judge will also take into account your clear avoidance of a backing situation
It shows a lack of confidence in your dog
And paints a negative picture.
Now does the back or not win or lose?
Maybe maybe not. It is just one part of the
Dogs day
Same with heeling off it can help to show off a dogs manners once sgain a small part of yhe picture

[AZ Brittany Guy]

My setter is a reliable backer UNLESS it's one of those darn Brittanys with no tail. Then it's a crap shoot.

Sure...blame it on the Britts..

[Dirty Dawger]

I think RayG and Larue are right on. Judging isn't often about a single dog that puts it together. It can more often be about a number of dogs that met the basic requirements of the stake but there's only 1 first. That's when all those other "polished" aspects might make the difference.

[Neil]

I think this may well be the most important point I have ever tried to convey here.

Certainly every aspect of a dog's performance should be observed and evaluated.

But the difference in a voluntary back and one on command is so far down the list of importance as to be near meaningless, and not collaring is. If an act, collaring, is allowed, why would you give extra credit for not doing it?

What the top judges are looking for is the dog that most completely demonstrates that it has the drive, class, endurance, intelligence, preservation to find wild birds were they available, with style and intensity.

Rarely is there a need to go to an insignificant tie breaker, the best dogs are usually easy to identify.

The more significant the stake the more this is true. At the National Championship going on right now the judges wouldn't even notice what you do after the flush and shot.

Neil

[larue]

Honoring with style is about showing your dogs
Class and is part of the picture you want to paint
A dog who is commanded into a back is taking a hit
In my eyes just as a dog who needs to be stopped
From creeping in on its bird.it is just not as attractive or as classy as a dog who stands his birds off or who honors with class.
Yes these are details but often in big stakes
It is about details not simple stuff like did the dog move or not.
The thing about backing is simple. It is birdwork
And should be looked at as such
Honestly a great run is about painting a picture with your dog , from the breakaway to the pickup
Every thing you and your dog does either separates
Your dog from the pack or does not
Honoring, quality of finds, class, style, race
Use of the wind, ground coverage, confidence
Shown by dog and handler all play into a judges
Choice.
Bottom line have fun do the best you can

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Well said Neil. Good judges keep "the main thing, the main thing". They don't try to judge a dog out.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Just remember good judges watch and use everything
In a trial.
A dog who honors with class is going to look good
And a good judge will appreciate the honor
remember a honor shows team work between
The dogs and is a huge deal when actually hunting wild birds
A judge will also take into account your clear avoidance of a backing situation
It shows a lack of confidence in your dog
And paints a negative picture.
Now does the back or not win or lose?
Maybe maybe not. It is just one part of the
Dogs day
Same with heeling off it can help to show off a dogs manners once sgain a small part of yhe picture

I don't completely agree with this. If dogs are hunting an area or both headed one direction and one points they other should back. If the other handler is there and horse ground tieing or scout holding and a judge sitting there no reason not to go collect a dog and go on if not already in that area. I would not penalize that, only backing being done there is a situation. This is assuming the dog isn't already in the area where it should be backing. If the other handler is already flushing I want that dog handled away and not adding anything to the find. I don't want to see a flushing attempt stopped and waiting for a handler to come to their dog. Having a dog come back that situation doesn't do anything for him either. Better to go on and try to find his own birds to the front. Every situation is different and you have to be able to tell what the dog can see on his level and not yours up on a horse. I have left dogs down that didn't back as long as they don't interfere but they aren't in consideration.

I never called a dog over to come back when I was out hunting, but if they were there they needed to back.

You do what you have to do to show your dog, you got 30 mins to make the judges think its better than the rest of the field.

[larue]

Btw take a look at what the akc rulebook says about honoring
And avoidance of the honoring situation.
In both cases it states the dog shall be severely
Penalized section 1e under pointing dog rules

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Btw take a look at what the akc rulebook says about honoring
And avoidance of the honoring situation.
In both cases it states the dog shall be severely
Penalized section 1e under pointing dog rules

That's what I said. What does severely mean? It also says a dog should be disqualified for interference or fighting. That statement is very clear the other, not so much.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Btw take a look at what the akc rulebook says about honoring
And avoidance of the honoring situation.
In both cases it states the dog shall be severely
Penalized section 1e under pointing dog rules

I see avoidance as a dog in the area called away and should be penalized. One that is not already in the area and a handler making in effort to keep them out of the area when there is more than just a dog standing there should not be a penalty. Everyone sees it differently and every situation is different.

[mountaindogs]

Winning is always nice, but the dog is not really a trial dog at heart. Just thought it would be fun for us to play.

1 more Q
In a non retrieving stake, how is the honoring dog expected to behave during flush and blank? I would assume that you should be hands off until heeling the dog away after the shot. Is this true or are you supposed to collar the dog like SH tests?

[MillerClemsonHD]

Winning is always nice, but the dog is not really a trial dog at heart. Just thought it would be fun for us to play.

1 more Q
In a non retrieving stake, how is the honoring dog expected to behave during flush and blank? I would assume that you should be hands off until heeling the dog away after the shot. Is this true or are you supposed to collar the dog like SH tests?

You can't touch the dog until after the flush and the shot. Once the shot has been fired and other handler is returning to his dog you are free to collar your dog and move forward. It is polite to collar your dog and wait for the other handler to get to his dog and collar them before moving away. If the other handler ask to relocate you should be allowed to collar your dog and take it forward on the course while he reloacates.

If in doubt ask the judge for help.

[larue]

Judged the same as master level except you can talk all you want

[shags]

You can also ask to move on from a back if the pointed dog's handler has an extended flushing attempt.

[mountaindogs]

Good. Thanks.