Watching Westminster?

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Watching Westminster?

Post by GunDogAdventures » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:27 pm

Okay, I'll be the first to admit it: I AM watching the Westminster Conformation Show. Anybody else? Shout out for Dr. Renee Lara on her Best of Breed with GSP, Ehrenvogel's Achy Breaky Heart! Congrats Cyrus!!

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:56 pm

Why wouldn't you admit you are watching? They are good dogs and are fitted to the upmost condition. People have watched for 100 years.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by fuzznut » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:42 pm

of course I watched... it's tradition!
Happy to see the Beagle take home the BIS! She deserved it

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by NC Quailhunter » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:37 am

The wife and I watch it every year.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Cicada » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:55 am

fuzznut wrote:of course I watched... it's tradition!
Happy to see the Beagle take home the BIS! She deserved it
And She is lives one watershed west of me.

Always had a soft spot for Snoopy :wink:

Grant

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by DudeRN » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:24 pm

the nice part is watching the working dog group, and hearing how just about all of them are not just show dogs, but also hunt. it is the group that probably has the highest rate of doing what they were bred to do, not just being show dogs.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Sharon » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:27 pm

I enjoyed it very much. You noticed of course that a Canadian B.C. beagle and a handler from Toronto won? :D

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by shags » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:50 pm

My faves to watch are the terriers and the toys. I wish I could have a couple of each of the terriers. I don't want a toy but I can see how they appeal to other folks.
I caught some of the Masters Agility over the weekend. A fluffball Pomeranian was entered and it was hilarious to see it scoot around the course instead of being relegated to some lady's purse :lol:

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:16 pm

We use to raise & show Dobes,I've been to far more dog shows then F Trials though I prefer the later.I have now owned more GSPS & for yrs longer then we owned Dobes.
People were scared to death of the dobes until they got to know them,as a breed IMO they are big babies & the majority of them were gun shy & read some where that is one reason they weren't used more by law enforcement
don't know if that is true or not.I do know the ones I owned would have watched you steal every thing in the house.I did see a few bad ones or ones with bad raps at a few shows.
Just a little foot note I had a red female dobe that was sired by Ch Mikadobe's Cupid who was the Westminster Breed winner some time in the 70's.

The terriers were fun to watch they all had that I'm the baddest on the planet attitude no matter their size.Judges that really new terriers & what they were about would have the handlers turn the dogs toward one another to see if they had that terrier attitude or not & if they didn't show it no way were they going to get a ribbon.I enjoyed it while we were dong it but have no desire to do it again though would like to prove my GSPS have the correct conformation.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:50 pm

A guy in our club (Tulsa Bird Dog Association) won best in breed with one of his Pointers a few years back. Dog is learning to chase birds now.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:12 pm

Did you all notice the dog on the logo is a pointer? There was a time when the dogs would compete at Ames and at Westminster, some winning both places. There was a show at the first field trial in Memphis, 1876.

I enjoy dog shows, am proud of my dual dogs, both show and field are important.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:49 pm

I enjoy dog shows, am proud of my dual dogs, both show and field are important.
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Amen

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:52 am

I was somewhat concerned that some of the dogs were not well gaited, particularly the Working Group. However nearly all the Toys looked super moving. By the time they get to this level I would expect all to be within standard.

Just like bird finding ability in the Field, movement is very important.

On a positive note, they are truly rewarding personality; the beagle had proper conformation, a nice gait, and was number 1 in congeniallity. He was my pick.

The multiple winning Portuguese water dog was an inbred mess. Even if kept in the house, he is going to breakdown before he is 8.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by crackerd » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:26 am

Sharon wrote:You noticed of course that a Canadian B.C. beagle and a handler from Toronto won? :D
Sharon, guess that means your national anthem's been renamed "'ROOOOOOOO, Canada!" http://www.stockmusicsite.com/stockmusi ... iid.294920

MG

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:59 pm

LOL We are very proud . Yes. MY Dad and I bred/trained/hunted beagles for many years so it was particularly nice to see a beagle win.

Good breeding pays off in many ways, as you know.

Miss P is 3rd generation from a littermate from great grandfather Uno , who won in 2008 at Westminster.

Image

Sad part of course: Many folks on the streets of New York and I'm sure elsewhere were now talking about getting a beagle. Hate to hear that. They are not for everyone.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:46 pm

I once sold a dog box to a guy, as part of my sales pitch I told him it would hold 2 dogs in each side. He smiling said, "Sir, I run beagles, I can fit a couple 6 packs in there".

They are great dogs and their job description requires them to be a little goofy.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by nikegundog » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:32 pm

Last year after two absolute obese Labradors won their breed category, the Labrador Retriever Club (the club that sets the breed standard), posted a strongly versed letter to confirmation judges about their complete disregard to the standard. Once again the judges completly disregarded the standard and two fat Labradors again won best of breed. Seems to me that the judge's and Westminster have no respect for the breed standard.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by original mngsp » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:25 am

I'd rather light my hair on fire and put it out with a hammer.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by crackerd » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:36 am

nikegundog wrote:Last year after two absolute obese Labradors won their breed category, the Labrador Retriever Club (the club that sets the breed standard), posted a strongly versed letter to confirmation judges about their complete disregard to the standard. Once again the judges completly disregarded the standard and two fat Labradors again won best of breed. Seems to me that the judge's and Westminster have no respect for the breed standard.
But...but...
ezzy333 wrote:Why wouldn't you admit you are watching? They are good dogs and are fitted to the upmost condition...
as applies to the Labs at Westminster, maybe Ezzy meant they are fitted out with pacemakers for the upmost heart condition. But at least they are fit enough - albeit barely - to be in upright condition...

MG

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:02 am

I an just as disappointed with the Labs you see in the show ring as any of you. That happened when practically everyone went to the Endlish type dogs that are extremely heavy bodied, short legged, and the thick heavy head. Get your hands on them and you will find they are quite solid similar to a bull dog and not just over finished. Sadly, they can't go out and hunt upland like our old type labs did even though they can work in water fairly well. It is a case of people going along with the trend instead of providing guidance as to what they want the breed standards really are. I am not sure but maybe they have even changed the standard but they sure didn't improve anything in my mind no matter what they did.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by laker » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:34 pm

I watch it every year. I hate what's become to some of the breeds. Labs, Golden Retrievers, English Settters and others have split the breeds.
I applaud Chessies and GSP's and others that still have dual champions.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by laker » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:40 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I an just as disappointed with the Labs you see in the show ring as any of you. That happened when practically everyone went to the Endlish type dogs that are extremely heavy bodied, short legged, and the thick heavy head. Get your hands on them and you will find they are quite solid similar to a bull dog and not just over finished. Sadly, they can't go out and hunt upland like our old type labs did even though they can work in water fairly well. It is a case of people going along with the trend instead of providing guidance as to what they want the breed standards really are. I am not sure but maybe they have even changed the standard but they sure didn't improve anything in my mind no matter what they did.

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Judges could fix this if they wanted to.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:04 pm

Show judges are paid professionals, the Brittany club requires that the judges must attend a seminar that contains a Power Point emphasizing the field ability.

So it is the member clubs not AKC that is to blame.

The Britts still have problems with some field dogs several inches over standard, looking 1/2 pointer. The Vizsla folks tried to solve that with qualifying at the line, where the dogs had to at least look like Vizslas. Don't think it worked. So it is not just a show problem.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by nikegundog » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:11 pm

Neil wrote:Show judges are paid professionals, the Brittany club requires that the judges must attend a seminar that contains a Power Point emphasizing the field ability.

So it is the member clubs not AKC that is to blame.

The Britts still have problems with some field dogs several inches over standard, looking 1/2 pointer. The Vizsla folks tried to solve that with qualifying at the line, where the dogs had to at least look like Vizslas. Don't think it worked. So it is not just a show problem.
How is the member club to blame, when that club came out and said that the show judges are doing a disgrace to the breed? Isn't it Westminster and the rest of these shows to blame, when they allow these judges to place dogs that don't fit the breed standard?

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:39 pm

Please 're-read my first paragraph. It is up to the member clubs to enforce the breed standard, make the judges know and follow them or lose their license to judge. Verbally complaining will not change things a, they must take action.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by shags » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:04 pm

Neil, does that ABC requirement for judges mean for any ABC shows, like the national, does it apply to anyone wanting approval for Brittanies, and must all local Brittany clubs choose only Power Point judges?

I'm wondering if an all-breed club can be required by any breed parent club to hire certain judges, or if exhibitors with dogs outside the standard in some way can still pick and choose who to show to, to their best advantage.

TIA.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:45 pm

Your question exceed my knowledge.

I know the breed clubs have input on judges up to Best of Breed level, I think for group and show it is up to the kennel club holding the show. It might explain why Britts rarely get placed in group. I know some judges resent and resist the education requirement. All I know is we have 600+ Duals, so it is working at that level.

Diana Kubitz has worked for years to keep the Britt right in shows, I wish we had done the same in the Field.

Sorry I don't know more, but if the other breeds leadership wants to learn, Di would help them.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by shags » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:14 pm

Thanks, Neil.

As far as I know show committees or subcommittees choose judges. So no matter what any parent club prefers, an all-breed club like WKC can hire whoever they choose. Exhibitors shop judges...so if they know Mrs. Tubbylab likes the short stocky dogs, those with short stocky dogs will show to her while the exhibitors with athletic leggy labs will not.

As far as standards go, a lot of it is in interpretation, precluding disqualifying faults. When we bought our first Irish Setter in 1970, the breeder went over the standard word by word with us, and lo and behold, the dam of the litter fit it perfectly, she being strictly a field bred dog. Then, two years later when we purchased a dog from a well-known show kennel, that breeder also compared the sire and dam to the standard, and they also fit it perfectly. Apples and oranges...who knew they were identical :lol: :D :lol:

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:24 pm

I think that is only partially true, I don't think they can judge the breed unless licensed for that breed by AKC, and AKC allows considerable input from the breed club on the criterion for the license; seminar, appreticeship, continuing education, and recertification, etc.

But can be allowed to judge Group and Best in Show without such input.

You are right chasing judges that like your type of dog, that is done in the Field, also. There is also a provision that you must get points from different judges for a show title.

Sorry I am not clearer, I just lack the knowledge.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Neil wrote:I think that is only partially true, I don't think they can judge the breed unless licensed for that breed by AKC, and AKC allows considerable input from the breed club on the criterion for the license; seminar, appreticeship, continuing education, and recertification, etc.

But can be allowed to judge Group and Best in Show without such input.

You are right chasing judges that like your type of dog, that is done in the Field, also. There is also a provision that you must get points from different judges for a show title.

Sorry I am not clearer, I just lack the knowledge.
What you have said is correct I believe. I know it has helped to tell the judges what we expect but I can't say for sure just what the written rules are. I do know if people would refuse to show under a judge he/she will be gone quickly.

I know I am not happy with most of the changes the Britts have put in the standards even though most are cosmetic. One of the biggest show problems has been the amount of coat while the biggest field problem are the people using oversized dogs and trying to justify it.

Ezzy

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by jetjockey » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:05 am

Whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred for the field as its main objective, and try to make prancing it around a ring in a glamour contest, equal to the field objective, then problems will arise.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by cjhills » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:09 am

jetjockey wrote:Whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred for the field as its main objective, and try to make prancing it around a ring in a glamour contest, equal to the field objective, then problems will arise.
This is not necessarily true. Many very good GSPs in the show ring also do very well in the field. They need to carry a bit more weight for the ring, but that is easy to regulate. Generally GSPs in the show ring are a bit on the large side but smaller dogs do well.
The show people can say the same thing, whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred to be a foot hunting field dog and change it to compete in AA trials problems arise.
This is the reason for breed standards, especially size.............................Cj

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by jetjockey » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:28 am

cjhills wrote:
jetjockey wrote:Whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred for the field as its main objective, and try to make prancing it around a ring in a glamour contest, equal to the field objective, then problems will arise.
This is not necessarily true. Many very good GSPs in the show ring also do very well in the field. They need to carry a bit more weight for the ring, but that is easy to regulate. Generally GSPs in the show ring are a bit on the large side but smaller dogs do well.
The show people can say the same thing, whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred to be a foot hunting field dog and change it to compete in AA trials problems arise.
This is the reason for breed standards, especially size.............................Cj
Why do they need to carry more weight in the ring? Isnt the point of a hunting dog to have a dog that is optimum for hunting conditions? If a dog is too big to be optimum for the field, why is it allowed in the ring? Same with the dogs you saw at Westminster that had ridiculous coats for hunting dogs. How do those coats optimize a hunting dogs field ability?

As far as breeding foot hunting dogs to run like AA dogs, your still breeding dogs for hunting conditions, which change. Now days, with the loss of more and more birds, a bigger running dog that can cover more ground will put more birds in the bag. Besides, I want a dog that shows it has the ability to handle off horse at extreme ranges, and smart enough to slow down on foot. If I have a foot hunting dog that's not finding birds, I want it to go find them. If that takes them 500-1000 yards out, so be it. I will still know the dog will handle at those extreme distances because it has proven that it can. It's much better to have a dog that can range and not need it, then to need the range and not have a dog that can do it. IMO, that's what everyone should be breeding for.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:13 am

jetjockey wrote:
cjhills wrote:
jetjockey wrote:Whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred for the field as its main objective, and try to make prancing it around a ring in a glamour contest, equal to the field objective, then problems will arise.
This is not necessarily true. Many very good GSPs in the show ring also do very well in the field. They need to carry a bit more weight for the ring, but that is easy to regulate. Generally GSPs in the show ring are a bit on the large side but smaller dogs do well.
The show people can say the same thing, whenever you take a breed of dog that was bred to be a foot hunting field dog and change it to compete in AA trials problems arise.
This is the reason for breed standards, especially size.............................Cj
Why do they need to carry more weight in the ring? Isnt the point of a hunting dog to have a dog that is optimum for hunting conditions? If a dog is too big to be optimum for the field, why is it allowed in the ring? Same with the dogs you saw at Westminster that had ridiculous coats for hunting dogs. How do those coats optimize a hunting dogs field ability?

As far as breeding foot hunting dogs to run like AA dogs, your still breeding dogs for hunting conditions, which change. Now days, with the loss of more and more birds, a bigger running dog that can cover more ground will put more birds in the bag. Besides, I want a dog that shows it has the ability to handle off horse at extreme ranges, and smart enough to slow down on foot. If I have a foot hunting dog that's not finding birds, I want it to go find them. If that takes them 500-1000 yards out, so be it. I will still know the dog will handle at those extreme distances because it has proven that it can. It's much better to have a dog that can range and not need it, then to need the range and not have a dog that can do it. IMO, that's what everyone should be breeding for.


The point is you are reiterating your likes, as most of us do, and not what is necessarily true for the breed. In my mind standards are somewhat like our Constitution, it was written as a guideline to follow that will govern where and how we are headed while protecting the integrity of the country or the breed of dog. And like the Constitution, it should take a vast majority of people to change it. In my mind it should also show some sort of proof the change is needed and not just someone's desire for whatever reason.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by jetjockey » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:24 am

I agree with that, but why don't they use field ability as the basis for show conformation, since these are field dogs?

Like you said about the increasing longer coats of brittanys in the show ring, how does that help them in the field? It doesnt, and IMO should be a penalty rather than something that's bred for. Why with many breeds, is there an obvious difference in field dogs vs the dogs that win in the show ring? Setters with ridiculously long coats, Pointers that are way too big to be effective in the field, and labs that are too fat to get out of their own way, let alone spend an entire day hunting in the field. Why do dogs like that win in the show ring? That's my problem with shows. Until the show people base their standards on what works best in the field, and not just by what looks good in the ring, we will continue to lose our hunting bred dogs. Hunt over a great field bred cocker some day and it will quickly make you despise what the show people did to an awesome hunting dog.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by cjhills » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:55 am

Why do they have breed standards? I would think it would be to give you an idea of what you would get in the breed. No need to have a dog in the show ring in field condition. They just look a bit prettier without hip bones showing. If you do not let the hair grow out for the ring should you be able to clip them for the field. The same dog should look different in the ring than it does it the field. It is a beauty contest.
Generally the conformation that works best in the ring works best in the field. But dogs three inches taller than the breed standard should not be allowed in either venue. If you ignore the breed standard to breed a dog that will win, you are doing the breed a disservice not matter what you are breeding for..................Cj

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by shags » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:33 am

JetJockey I think you're spot on.
The FDSB pointers and setters with *no* breed standard look remarkably similar to dogs from 100+ years ago. But not so the the setter breeds, Epointers, retrievers, flushers that have been socalled protected by parent club breed standards ( i'm not including continental pointing breeds here because they are relatively new to this country and I have little knowlege of them in their homelands).
Why? Because form follows function.
Of course if a breed's function is to priss around a show ring a couple times then go sit in the shade with an icebag on its head, then that's a whole other ball of wax.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:38 pm

The AKC breed standard was written for the FDSB pointer. Mary Montross was put on a train to NYC following one of her three wins of the National Championship, where she took Best of Opposite Sex at Westminster. It was common for there to be a dog show in conjunction with the Field trials, a practice continued by the Brittanys into the 1970's.

There is truly a split, but the blame lies with the Field folks as much as the show.

Our history should not be forgotten.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:52 pm

It sounds like some of you don't realize much of the difference in appearance between a field and a show contender are cosmetic and not genetic. Conditioning for each will make the same dog appear quite different. Body fat is one example. Hair coat is another. It takes a great deal of care and protection to get that long pretty coat on a dog. You can't get a coat like that when the dog is running in the field through briars, cat tails and such. They actually wrap some of the dogs in a light cloth material to protect the coat and add length and condition to it. It was always a challenge to get my Britts finished in the ring before hunting season while they still had a nice coat. And many times we helped out by clipping any areas that were too long and tended to catch burrs such as arm pits and leg feathering, I am sure you have never seen a pet Yorky or many other small dogs such as a Peke with a coat that even resembles their show coat. It is a real pain getting them into show condition, much the same way all beauty pageant contestants or body builders have to prepare.

But I feel Neil is right on the mark when he says we all are as guilty as the rest of our crowd in forgetting there is a standard that allows our dogs to perform their intended accomplishments both in the ring and the field at a high level. So when we use the excuse our Dachshunds needs to be taller to compete at the race track with the Greyhounds we are just maybe wanting them to perform in a way they were never intended to perform. I have found a tremendous difference in our American pointers that are winning in the field than the old English pointer that came to this country and won Westminster, but the pointer breeders are quick to tell you they don't have a written standard, which I guess is true but every breeder I have ever talked to will tell you which dogs are built right and which ones aren't. So will someone explain how we, and I mean you and I, can tell people there is no standard but yet we know what looks like a pointer or a setter, or a Brit. When any of us start telling people what is right and what is wrong we have a standard, and if it isn't the same for all of us then everyone is going a different direction and the breed will soon deteriate when it loses conformity. The end result is we will have dogs and we can call them whatever we like since they will all be different in looks and performance. Maybe we get confused between improving and changing. If you have to change a dog to improve performance in any venue you are probably asking the dog to do something it was not intended to do. Remember the Dachshunds vs Grayhounds.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by jetjockey » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:35 pm

How does that long pretty hair help a dog in the field? It sounds like it is only a hindrance. If that's the case, why is it something the show people look highly upon? Why would someone go out of their way to develop something that takes away from the dog in the field? Aren't these field dogs? Shouldnt anything that takes away their ability in the field be a negative trait? When looks becomes more important than field ability, there is a serious problem.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by shags » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:03 pm

Probably be good if all the sporting breeds had a breed standard modeled after the one for Red Setters. Performance and conformation/appearance
http://nrsftc.com/PDF/BreedStandard.pdf

Oh wait. Then all those dogs would have to actually do something the breed was meant to do. Uh oh. :?

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by jetjockey » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:17 pm

shags wrote:Probably be good if all the sporting breeds had a breed standard modeled after the one for Red Setters. Performance and conformation/appearance
http://nrsftc.com/PDF/BreedStandard.pdf

Oh wait. Then all those dogs would have to actually do something the breed was meant to do. Uh oh. :?
Yep!!

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:25 pm

This is the same argument made every year. Look, you can point fingers or you can put you dogs out there. The only reason GSPs and Brittanys and other breeds still have duals is because breeders still play both games with their dogs. Breeders put dogs in front of show judges who are working field dogs and the judges see them. Breeders put show winning dogs in front of trial judges and judges see them. Quite a few Labrador breeders are actively working towards re-establishing a dual champion in the breed. I think the judges are getting it but altering perception back towards sensibility can take time. Give it 3 years and see...

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Chukar12 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:13 pm

I have less concerns about the physical attributes than I do about the behavioral and intelligence factors. In the field I can determine instinct and intelligence; and especially over time I can see an ability to employ the characteristics. My concern in the ring without being specific to breed is a lack of metric to the practical applications that come from between the ears. If you remove that metric you run the risk of a diluted product... Now being specific to a breed I have neighbors with Irish setters that makes the hardest core dog lovers wish them ill.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:10 pm

The Boykin was a friend of mines dog CH/MH with a ton of birds retrieved allllll over.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Neil » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:45 pm

birddog1968 wrote:The Boykin was a friend of mines dog CH/MH with a ton of birds retrieved allllll over.
The Boykin is a new AKC breed, the Field and Show folks have not had time to split, and hopefully never will. I tried to get the Boykin Spaniel Society (BSS) to be the breed club of AKC, to avoid even the possibility of a split, I failed.

Please congratulate your friend, nice dog.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by philrosenbaum » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:31 pm

As a member of this group whom has a GCH Vizsla in the conformation ring who is also 2 passes short of his MH and has run NAVHDA Utility I will say the thing that bothers me most is the descriptions of the sporting dogs. Yes, it is true that dogs have an intended purpose when bred but for the most part those dogs are not entered at Westminster. IIRC there were actually more field titled Vizslas than GSPs entered with the highest title being SH, and there was only one of those. To me that shows that the judges are not rewarding field bred dogs in the ring and the disconnect between field and show is evident.

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:59 pm

philrosenbaum wrote:As a member of this group whom has a GCH Vizsla in the conformation ring who is also 2 passes short of his MH and has run NAVHDA Utility I will say the thing that bothers me most is the descriptions of the sporting dogs. Yes, it is true that dogs have an intended purpose when bred but for the most part those dogs are not entered at Westminster. IIRC there were actually more field titled Vizslas than GSPs entered with the highest title being SH, and there was only one of those. To me that shows that the judges are not rewarding field bred dogs in the ring and the disconnect between field and show is evident.
To me that shows that the field bred dogs are not entering the shows and that the show bred dogs are not competing in the field. there are many individual dogs which could do both. Most show ring breeders quit with a JH title, at least the Gsp and Brittney Breeders that I am aware of.....................Cj

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by GunDogAdventures » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:31 pm

I started this thread dreaming about what it'd be like to have a Dual-potential pup. But the story took on a life of it's own: I had my FT-bred 5-1/2 month old GSP on a stake out at a Hunt Test when a lady came up and asked if I had ever considered showing him. I shrugged and said, "I never really thought about it." She told me that she loved his looks, especially the shape of his head. So, I took him to get evaluated by someone recommended by a fellow breed club member. Long story short.....we entered him in a Specialty at 8-1/2 months and he won Best of Winners for a 3-point major. All that to say, I never really considered it until someone else suggested it to me. Of course, now I'm dreaming about having a DC!! You never know until you try, right? Oh, and the only dog that beat him out for Best of Breed, was Dr. Lara's Cyrus - too funny!!

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Re: Watching Westminster?

Post by Firelight » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:53 pm

Congratulations GDA. Either you have a good eye and picked out the right puppy or got just plain lucky, but good on you for enjoying the dual ability of your dog.

This little gal is another who can do both well, she's a GrCH and is working on her SH, I'm trying to talk her owner into FTs.
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