pointing hunt test questions

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raven13
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pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:25 pm

Last year I did junior hunter with my dog. We got the title easily in 2 weekends and had a good time. This was the first time I have ever done anything like this. Now this year we have been training to try for senior or master. Now I feel like we are in between and have a test in 2 1/2 weeks and I don't know which to enter. The dog is steady to wing and shot about 99% of the time but with honoring through the retrieve only about 85%. So do I hope for the best and try master or take the easier one and do senior?
And how perfect does the retrieve have to be for master? I do not have her force fetched, but she has never refused and always brings it to me. I do whistle for her as so as she picks it up. Is that ok in master?
After the shot do you have to wait for the judge to tell you to send your dog for the retrieve?
Sometimes my dog will wag her tail slightly if she can see the bird running while pointing. Will that disqualify?
I am sure I will come up with more questions, please anyone give whatever advice and tips you have because I have no idea what I am doing!

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Sharon » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:41 pm

My motto in tests and trials was , "What's the hurry?" I was there to enjoy my dog more than get a title. I , personally wouldn't skip Senior. I remember getting a first placement in an AF derby trial when pup was 10 months old. . Some participants were mad as they said I should have put her in shooting dog if she was that good. LOL I'm in no hurry.

"Sometimes my dog will wag her tail slightly if she can see the bird running while pointing. Will that disqualify?" quote Not in a test it shouldn't.

"A Senior hunting dog must be steady to wing and remain
until the shot" ... you don't to wait until the judge tells you to send your dog to retrieve .

Everything you need to know about AKC hunting tests for pointing breeds:

https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTPNT.pdf

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:23 pm

I agree with Sharon. Why rush ?

Go have fun with your dog, however you wish to. If you and your dog get a pass at either level...great. if not... so what? It's not like you are taking anything away from someone else or making someone else's dog look bad. You are having fun with your dog.

That is what it is supposed to be about. Having fun with your dog. Personally, I would do the senior test, if for no other reason but experience for the dog. Unless, of course you LIKE being under pressure.



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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:44 pm

Get at least two legs of SH, before considering MH, and only then if you breeze through them.

As said, enjoy the journey, and the ribbons if kept with a journal make great memories. As I type this I am looking at a second place red ribbon from a 1963 Am SD and recall her race and both finds with clarity, yet can't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by RoostersMom » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:42 pm

I skipped SH based on advice from a trainer that I now use a lot. His basic philosophy is that if your dog is not 100% steady, that running your dog with other unsteady dogs will only make him harder to train in the long run. He has seen many HT and FT's where a chasing dog has caused another dog to break. He was very concerned that my "newly steady" dog would break if the other dog broke - so we went with MH. Breezed through them with only one no-pass and that was because he didn't see the bird that was shot (a whole group got up from UNDERNEATH him - yep, he stood through birds flushing from under his belly). He couldn't find the bird that was shot because he was watching the other one that flew the opposite direction.

Anyway - just saying that it might be safer training-wise to only run your dog with broke dogs from now on. Skipping SH was great for me, we never had bracemates that interfered or chased.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Sharon » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Neil wrote:Get at least two legs of SH, before considering MH, and only then if you breeze through them.

As said, enjoy the journey, and the ribbons if kept with a journal make great memories. As I type this I am looking at a second place red ribbon from a 1963 Am SD and recall her race and both finds with clarity, yet can't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday.
That is so true! I still remember beating the pro /breeder of one of my dogs, on a call back. He laughs whenever I mention it - which I can't do very often. :)

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:24 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I skipped SH based on advice from a trainer that I now use a lot. His basic philosophy is that if your dog is not 100% steady, that running your dog with other unsteady dogs will only make him harder to train in the long run. He has seen many HT and FT's where a chasing dog has caused another dog to break. He was very concerned that my "newly steady" dog would break if the other dog broke - so we went with MH. Breezed through them with only one no-pass and that was because he didn't see the bird that was shot (a whole group got up from UNDERNEATH him - yep, he stood through birds flushing from under his belly). He couldn't find the bird that was shot because he was watching the other one that flew the opposite direction.

Anyway - just saying that it might be safer training-wise to only run your dog with broke dogs from now on. Skipping SH was great for me, we never had bracemates that interfered or chased.
The only problem with your (and your pro's) logic is what everyone followed it, at least a 1/4 of the Field would be made up of dogs they weren't sure if they would be steady with an unbroken dog? Think about it. You had the possible "problem" dog you were worried about.

Though I have little Hunting Test experience, I have held back many 1st year All-Age dogs for fear they would interference with their bracemate, either only being steady most of the time or only backing without command some of the time.

The road you traveled, while successful for you, was fraught with mishap for your bracemate.

I am not saying to keep them out until they are 100% (few ever are), but to be respectful of others.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Fun dog » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:37 am

I wasn't sure if my dog was quite ready for masters, but figured on a good day she could pass. I knew she wouldn't mess up another dog though so I entered both. As it turned out she didn't pass the master test the first time, but she breezed though the senior. The next year she became a SH and is well on her way to her masters title. It was good experience for both of us. One thing though, entering the masters doesn't mean your dog isn't going to have to deal with dogs breaking and chasing. Last year in masters I had one dog break on the shot and chase the bird, another stole my dogs retrieve. So be prepared for the worst.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:54 pm

Thank you all for your answers! I am thinking of doing senior right now probably more because I am nervous and worry I will mess up the dog. I still want to go for master, but maybe I should work my way up? Going training tomorrow!

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by RoostersMom » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:41 pm

Neil wrote:
RoostersMom wrote:I skipped SH based on advice from a trainer that I now use a lot. His basic philosophy is that if your dog is not 100% steady, that running your dog with other unsteady dogs will only make him harder to train in the long run. He has seen many HT and FT's where a chasing dog has caused another dog to break. He was very concerned that my "newly steady" dog would break if the other dog broke - so we went with MH. Breezed through them with only one no-pass and that was because he didn't see the bird that was shot (a whole group got up from UNDERNEATH him - yep, he stood through birds flushing from under his belly). He couldn't find the bird that was shot because he was watching the other one that flew the opposite direction.

Anyway - just saying that it might be safer training-wise to only run your dog with broke dogs from now on. Skipping SH was great for me, we never had bracemates that interfered or chased.
The only problem with your (and your pro's) logic is what everyone followed it, at least a 1/4 of the Field would be made up of dogs they weren't sure if they would be steady with an unbroken dog? Think about it. You had the possible "problem" dog you were worried about.

Though I have little Hunting Test experience, I have held back many 1st year All-Age dogs for fear they would interference with their bracemate, either only being steady most of the time or only backing without command some of the time.

The road you traveled, while successful for you, was fraught with mishap for your bracemate.

I am not saying to keep them out until they are 100% (few ever are), but to be respectful of others.

I'm not sure you understood what I said. My pro says to keep the dogs OUT of the tests and field trials until they are broke so they won't interfere with others. I think that's what you're saying too. He advised I not run my dog in Senior because many senior dogs would still break - and he didn't want my dog (who was steady) to start misunderstanding the game and potentially break. I think you and I are saying the same thing. Senior tests are filled with dogs that aren't really steady - so why subject your dog to that - just wait until your dog is really broke so that you can run him in broke dog stakes.

Neil - I think you and I are saying the same thing here. My dog was 100% steady before we started running Master, even though we skipped Senior. Funny story - I ran with a guy that was worried that my dog (because he hadn't done SH tests) would break and mess his dog up. I told him that wouldn't be the case. We had no trouble in the field, both of us getting a bird and a retrieve, but we didn't have the opportunity to get a back through the retrieve. We both got to the callbacks (or whatever it's called) and my dog passed the backing through a retrieve. They asked me to use my dog as the pointing dog so that his dog could get the back all the way through the retrieve. My non-SH dog stood staunchly as the bird flushed AND as his dog broke and chased the bird down right in front of my dog during the shot. This fellow that had been very mouthy to me about me bringing a dog that didn't have his SH title to the MH test didn't say a word as to me as he loaded up his dog and left. I admit, I'm a bad person, I did smile inside as his dog was chasing down that bird while my dog was standing steady as a rock, but only because he was giving me so much grief about not having done SH testing.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:43 pm

Another question. Should I run her in a few training sessions before the test without the ecollar? Or just take it off on the day of the test? I really hardly ever have to use it. I am not sure if she will notice or not.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:55 pm

raven13 wrote:Another question. Should I run her in a few training sessions before the test without the ecollar? Or just take it off on the day of the test? I really hardly ever have to use it. I am not sure if she will notice or not.
My advice has changed as the e-collars have cotton so much lighter. Today, I don't concern myself with it. Let her wear it or not, don't think it matters.

Roostermom, you are right, I misunderstood.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:34 pm

If your goal is an MH Title then train for it and don't spend (waste) your money on lesser Titles. You can gain a lot more experience spending your time and money training.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:18 pm

I have always found it helpful to partake of the whole program that is offered but there certainly is no right or wrong and only everyone's opinion of what they like. Remember, it has little to do with your likes when I tell you mine.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:44 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:If your goal is an MH Title then train for it and don't spend (waste) your money on lesser Titles. You can gain a lot more experience spending your time and money training.
If you are training alone, that is untrue. You just cannot set up a simulated test by yourself.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:04 pm

The best thing you will get out of senior is experience as a handler. The dog will not learn bad habits in senior as it will in junior. Senior is not much different from Master and allows a little more handling. I do not know about the whistle on the retrieve. Probably not in Master. The retrieve needs to be very solid in Master. Absolutely to hand and no movement toward the dog. the honor needs to be very solid in the Master, the dog needs to stop on immediately when it sees its bracemate on point and not move through the retrieve, You can caution the dog but not until he has established a his back.
I train with the collar on all the time. No need for the dog to learn she does not have it on, Hopefully she will not figure that out before she is done.
Which ever you do read the rules carefully and make sure you understand them. Hoping for the best in the Master test is probably not going to work. There are a lot of ways to DQ in the master. I have done most of them. It is much easier when you have a solid dog who needs something bad to happen to get a DQ and you can show the judge how good your dog is. than it is to have to try to hide how bad your dog is.
I finished a bunch of master dogs before somebody told me you could not do it without a force retrieve natural is fine if it is good.
Neil is right you absolutely need to train with other dogs. Different colors and different breeds are a must.
Good Luck.........................Cj

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:34 am

Neil wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:If your goal is an MH Title then train for it and don't spend (waste) your money on lesser Titles. You can gain a lot more experience spending your time and money training.
If you are training alone, that is untrue. You just cannot set up a simulated test by yourself.
Not true! My 1st Hunt Test ever was a Master with a 12mo Old V. Not every dog, trainer, handler can do that but "setting up" the situations is simple.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by cjhills » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:43 am

The first time my very good backing bitch seen a small French Brittney on point, she totally ignore it. Looked like she did not recognize it. I do not know how you would do a honoring set up alone. Some dogs will do it the first time they see it but some will not..............Cj

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:49 am

cjhills wrote:The first time my very good backing bitch seen a small French Brittney on point, she totally ignore it. Looked like she did not recognize it. I do not know how you would do a honoring set up alone. Some dogs will do it the first time they see it but some will not..............Cj
I never said to train alone, only that I choose to train for the highest level and save money on things that are totally instinctive.(or should be like JH) If I ran 10 dogs it would be a $1000 weekend.

Why not spend that money training and not Testing something that is instinctive?

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:16 am

Most don't run 10 dogs, and few belong to training groups with extensive facilities; we have to get by. To suggest the average poster, such as the OP, could finish a dog to Master level by himself in his backyard is arrogant, and your usual bragging self.

Nearly every thread you tell us about your high dollar dogs and your exceptional skill as a trainer. A year old MH without running junior level, we are impressed! Now can we get back to giving real life advice for those of us with less talent and more common dogs?

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:33 am

I probably made a big mistake, but in a moment of insanity after a few really great practice sessions I am signed up for MASTER! I do think there is a chance we can pass. She does everything right and I am definitely the weak link. I do fear she will pick up on my nervousness and not do as well. My reasons for going ahead with master like I said are she is doing great. I was a little unsure on stop to flush but now she even did that perfect. I just figured if nothing else we will get the little score card after and learn what we did right and wrong. I am going in to this as a learning experience and if we pass great. As far as her breaking if the other dog breaks I am certain that will probably not happen because my other dog I practice with is not steady and breaks at the flush and this dog doesn't. I am more wondering what she will think when the other dog doesn't move and is then sent for a retrieve. We may try to hold the other dog today and simulate that. Another question, for the pretend shotgun the handler is supposed to carry,can I take a toy shotgun of my kids? It looks like a shotgun, but is plastic and has the orange cap on the end.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:49 am

raven13 wrote:I probably made a big mistake, but in a moment of insanity after a few really great practice sessions I am signed up for MASTER! I do think there is a chance we can pass. She does everything right and I am definitely the weak link. I do fear she will pick up on my nervousness and not do as well. My reasons for going ahead with master like I said are she is doing great. I was a little unsure on stop to flush but now she even did that perfect. I just figured if nothing else we will get the little score card after and learn what we did right and wrong. I am going in to this as a learning experience and if we pass great. As far as her breaking if the other dog breaks I am certain that will probably not happen because my other dog I practice with is not steady and breaks at the flush and this dog doesn't. I am more wondering what she will think when the other dog doesn't move and is then sent for a retrieve. We may try to hold the other dog today and simulate that. Another question, for the pretend shotgun the handler is supposed to carry,can I take a toy shotgun of my kids? It looks like a shotgun, but is plastic and has the orange cap on the end.
Yes, you can. Remember to pretend to aim at the bird when you flush. I always forget that. Judges do not like that.
You can go back to senior if you need to now. which is a good rule change. Good Luck..............Cj

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:28 am

I agree it was a good rule change to allow you to go back among classes.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Fun dog » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:59 pm

Adrenaline can play a factor in your hunt test. So don't be surprised if your normally fantastic dog does something you would not expect. I was like you the first time I entered Lily in a master test. On a good day I knew she could pass. Her bracemate pointed a bird in the back field. Lily honored the point. As soon as the handler shot the blank his dog broke and took off after the bird. Lily stood through all of that. Then I made a handler error. I did heel her off the bird, but not long enough and she decided she would go get that bird that was shot, which she did. We were out of the test, but learned a lesson. I ran her in senior that same day and she was really good even pulling off some 10's on the score card. Have fun and don't be afraid to ask the judge if you gave questions. I used a stick for a gun in my first test. Since then my husband has made me a hunt test gun!

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:54 pm

Fun dog wrote:Adrenaline can play a factor in your hunt test. So don't be surprised if your normally fantastic dog does something you would not expect. I was like you the first time I entered Lily in a master test. On a good day I knew she could pass. Her bracemate pointed a bird in the back field. Lily honored the point. As soon as the handler shot the blank his dog broke and took off after the bird. Lily stood through all of that. Then I made a handler error. I did heel her off the bird, but not long enough and she decided she would go get that bird that was shot, which she did. We were out of the test, but learned a lesson. I ran her in senior that same day and she was really good even pulling off some 10's on the score card. Have fun and don't be afraid to ask the judge if you gave questions. I used a stick for a gun in my first test. Since then my husband has made me a hunt test gun!
I very helpful post.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:03 pm

So you can run the same dog in master and senior on the same day at the same test? Maybe I should have done that. Wonder if it is too late?

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Fun dog » Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:48 pm

Yes you can.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by deseeker » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:11 pm

raven13 wrote:So you can run the same dog in master and senior on the same day at the same test? Maybe I should have done that. Wonder if it is too late?
No you can't--not the same day with the same club. E-mail AKC Performance division with that question and they will tell you no.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by deseeker » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:15 pm

Fun dog wrote:Yes you can.
AKC probably didn't know you ran in both senior and master, because the club that handles the event only sends in the qualifying dogs name and since your dog didn't qualify in master that day his name wasn't sent in to AKC so they do not know your dog ran in two levels in the same day.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Fun dog » Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:29 pm

Actually I checked with Tom Maneely the AKC field Representative to make sure it was okay, before I signed up for both, and he assured me it was. Last summer lily ran both senior and master qualifying in both on the same day.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by deseeker » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:32 am

Fun dog wrote:Actually I checked with Tom Maneely the AKC field Representative to make sure it was okay, before I signed up for both, and he assured me it was. Last summer lily ran both senior and master qualifying in both on the same day.
I'm e-mailing Tom and Lisa King(Performance division) tomarrow--because I have been told in the past they can only run 1 level per day per club.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:07 am

I think the rules have changed as AKC and the club's are looking for ways to increase entries not limit them. Those type rules never made sense. Just like not being able to run in both Gun Dog and All-Age at field trials. Unless you have too many entries why care?

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by deseeker » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:35 am

Neil wrote:I think the rules have changed as AKC and the club's are looking for ways to increase entries not limit them. Those type rules never made sense. Just like not being able to run in both Gun Dog and All-Age at field trials. Unless you have too many entries why care?
Only reason I care is I'm a hunt test Sec and AKC likes to fine you if you break their rules.---If I don't have the paper work in 3 months prior to the event the club gets fined($50 bucks late fee)--If you get the results back to them past 7 days you get fined---if you don't follow procedure at a mis conduct trial, you get fined. If you don't report a aggressive dog, you get fined, careless gunners you can get fined. You get where I'm going with this---it is very easy to get fined by the AKC if you don't follow their rules :( . We make very little money on our hunt tests so I have to know the rules so we don't pick up any unnecessary fines. That's the only reason I care if they run in more than 1 level per event---If they can run in more than 1 level we could make more money :D

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:24 am

Good luck and let us know how it goes. You can do it! I passed 2 MH with a dog I trained totally on my own - I did go to a trainer for some creeping issues and we managed to finish the following 4 tests without that issue re-surfacing. I hope you have fun with your dog - that, in the end, it what it is all about.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by deseeker » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:33 pm

Well to answer the question, "can you run 1 dog in two different levels(example:master & senior) in one club's hunting test". AKC rep Tom Maneley ran the question past most of the AKC field staff. They said "you can" (mainly because no where in the rule book does it say you can't run in 2 levels) :roll: That's good because the clubs can now make a little more money off more entries :D

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:18 pm

Has it been 2 weeks yet....how did it go? If not, let us know next Monday!

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Fun dog » Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:55 pm

Our club is quite small and if it weren't for the fact that a couple of dogs ran two classes we wouldn't have had much of a test.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:56 pm

Today was the day! We were very close to getting a master pass. We did do senior and got that ribbon. Had alot of fun. Thanks to everyone for the advice. We try again tomorrow.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:37 pm

You're keeping me in suspense here. How did it go on Sunday?

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:36 pm

No luck on Sunday. Bird would not fly very well in master and after I flushed it 5 times she moved on the shot. Then in senior she was pointing very close to a bird and reached in and grabbed it when I tried to flush and it wouldn't fly. I think my nervousness made her different. I definitely learned and that was what I needed. We will have try again!

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Sharon
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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by Sharon » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:38 pm

That's how it goes sometimes. Nothing worse at a trial or test than poor flying birds. Glad you had a good time.

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:24 pm

raven13 wrote:No luck on Sunday. Bird would not fly very well in master and after I flushed it 5 times she moved on the shot. Then in senior she was pointing very close to a bird and reached in and grabbed it when I tried to flush and it wouldn't fly. I think my nervousness made her different. I definitely learned and that was what I needed. We will have try again!
Be very aware that dogs can very quickly learn bad habits in hunt tests. Not the least of which is catching birds. They are quick to pick up on what they can get away with and they remember the situation forever. Unless I am very confidant in the dog I never run more than two tests a weekend even at a double. You are wasting your money hoping the dog will get lucky and pass. It can get very difficult if you get too many DQs.............................Cj

raven13
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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by raven13 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:14 pm

We got a MASTER pass today and a senior! She was amazing! Thanks again for all the help everyone!

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Re: pointing hunt test questions

Post by cjhills » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:52 am

Very good . Congratulations............................Cj

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