Breeding Shooting Dogs

RyanDoolittle
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Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:55 pm

In your own opinion what type of breeding produces the best and most consistent Horseback Shooting dogs?

Line Breeding or Outcross

All-Age x All-Age
All-Age x Shooting Dog
Shooting Dog x Shooting Dog

Specifically German Shorthaired Pointers

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by codym » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:23 am

I've always believed dogs generally revert to the drag of the species, sort of like a bell curve. Your all age dogs are the extreme outliers. In general and again it's just my opinion that most dogs bred by all age studs won't end up as all age dogs themselves. They will be something less with a small minority at one end of the bell curve being all age type. Now this is a way over simplification and it takes many things to get a great shooting dog I.e. Development,training, etc. I have had good luck in pointers breeding big going sd studs to big going sd females, but having said that if there were aa dogs in my area I would def go aa stud to sd female. In pointers style running and pointing is a little more important than it is in gsps. So I will give up a little run to have a dog that looks like a million bucks going through the country and pointed. Now if I had access to breeding aa to aa I would do it and bet you would get some powerful shooting dogs. In dogs the old saying you can take it out of them, but you can't put it into them holds true in my experience. Breed power to power if you can, or fill the holes with a female. Hope this makes sense. Good luck!

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:09 am

RyanDoolittle wrote:In your own opinion what type of breeding produces the best and most consistent Horseback Shooting dogs?

Line Breeding or Outcross

All-Age x All-Age
All-Age x Shooting Dog
Shooting Dog x Shooting Dog

Specifically German Shorthaired Pointers
What you are describing has nothing to do with linebreeding. Linebreeding is breeding related dog and not dogs that perform alike. Range seems to be inherited to some extent so I think if you want to do some research the biggest running dogs produce the biggest running dogs. But we know they don't produce all big runners so you will likely get several pups that would make a shooting dog standard with an occasional AA. And since there is little difference in those two catagories probably many of the pups could do either or both. But still, the real solid AA type would be occasional at best.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:17 pm

codym wrote:Breed power to power if you can...
Agreed. This is good topic for conversation because (as long as no one gets their feathers all ruffled) many great/good breeders have their opinions on what has worked for them. I am very close to one of the top AA breeders. He has produced AA CHs and even the recent National CH. But out of his litters have also come horseback SD CHs and walking dogs.

My feeling is this (taking all the training/development out of it)...if you breed walking dogs to walking dogs, the odds of you getting a AA/HB dog are slim - could happen - but slim. Now if you breed AA to AA, the odds of you getting the power Cody refereed to are much better, plus you will probably get some walking/HB type dogs. Each breeder has to determine WHAT do they want to produce. If you want your breeding to produce a snappy grouse dogs, odds are that you would not breed to Happy Jack or Shadow Oak Bo...could be done, but odds aren't with you. You asked "what type of breeding produces the best and most consistent Horseback Shooting dogs" IMO it would be to take a powerful female that has all the natural "handle", runs on the edge of AA and breed her to the top AA male you can get your hands on - that can fill her holes (they all have them and we can't be kennel blind). Key with any dog is handle. Some dogs have it some don't. Yes you can develop it, but if you have a female (or male) who natural has it...use it in your breeding program IMO

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
RyanDoolittle wrote:In your own opinion what type of breeding produces the best and most consistent Horseback Shooting dogs?

Line Breeding or Outcross

All-Age x All-Age
All-Age x Shooting Dog
Shooting Dog x Shooting Dog

Specifically German Shorthaired Pointers
What you are describing has nothing to do with linebreeding. Linebreeding is breeding related dog and not dogs that perform alike. Range seems to be inherited to some extent so I think if you want to do some research the biggest running dogs produce the biggest running dogs. But we know they don't produce all big runners so you will likely get several pups that would make a shooting dog standard with an occasional AA. And since there is little difference in those two catagories probably many of the pups could do either or both. But still, the real solid AA type would be occasional at best.

You misunderstand. Out Cross or Line Breeding is one part and the AA x AA is the second.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:32 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
codym wrote:Breed power to power if you can...
Agreed. This is good topic for conversation because (as long as no one gets their feathers all ruffled) many great/good breeders have their opinions on what has worked for them. I am very close to one of the top AA breeders. He has produced AA CHs and even the recent National CH. But out of his litters have also come horseback SD CHs and walking dogs.

My feeling is this (taking all the training/development out of it)...if you breed walking dogs to walking dogs, the odds of you getting a AA/HB dog are slim - could happen - but slim. Now if you breed AA to AA, the odds of you getting the power Cody refereed to are much better, plus you will probably get some walking/HB type dogs. Each breeder has to determine WHAT do they want to produce. If you want your breeding to produce a snappy grouse dogs, odds are that you would not breed to Happy Jack or Shadow Oak Bo...could be done, but odds aren't with you. You asked "what type of breeding produces the best and most consistent Horseback Shooting dogs" IMO it would be to take a powerful female that has all the natural "handle", runs on the edge of AA and breed her to the top AA male you can get your hands on - that can fill her holes (they all have them and we can't be kennel blind). Key with any dog is handle. Some dogs have it some don't. Yes you can develop it, but if you have a female (or male) who natural has it...use it in your breeding program IMO

Good points. I am looking at it from the buying end of it rather than the breeding end. Gathering information online its seems the best would be AA x AA, then AA x SD, then SD x SD.

However looking at NGSPA and GSPCC results there is so much AA placement and SD placement cross over its hard to determine what type the dog is without seeing it in person. That can be tough when the dog is across the country.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Hunter » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:09 pm

Tha'ts why the grounds the dogs run on are very important in determining a shooting dog and all age dog. On tight grounds a big shooting dog can run just as big as an AA dog but if you put them in wide open prairies or some of the big AA ranches you better see a difference between the two because if you don't, then that AA dog isn't getting it done. On the GSP side of things that's why we have so many dogs running across the board as one weekend they are an AA and the next they are a shooting dog, sometimes at the same championship and I don't understand that as you are one or the other and the judges better decipher, if in doubt you probably have a shooting dog. My dog won the 2014 National Gun Dog championship in Eureka last November and she is a big running shooting dog and looks great on the ground but I have never ran her in a AA stake because I think once you make that jump that better be what you are as I would much rather have a big running shooting dog than a shorter AA as you have a much better shot at winning. So in looking at your original question as to what to breed to get a shooting dog, don't go by breeding what to what, go by going out and watching these dogs run in big country and see for yourself. Your Chance of getting a shooting dog out of 2 AA or AA to Shooting dog breeding's is better than someone looking for an AA dog out of the same breeding.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:50 pm

I am absolutely no expert here, but my advice may be relevant. I have watched a lot of dogs in training in the past 2 years as I'm learning the field trial game. I've hunted for more than 15 years with birddogs. What I see as a major difference in dogs is whether they are "natural" or not. That cannot be determined, IMO, by watching them run once or twice. That designation has to come from either knowing the trainer well enough to get the skinny on the dogs OR from a really honest breeder. I am more and more convinced that a good trainer can make a decent dog look great.....but if I had to train that dog, it would maybe make it to "good" and certainly not "great."

I'm not sure how you get to the answer about the dog "naturally" having what it takes, but for me, and my next dog purchase, I will go to some great lengths to get a dog from a breeding of two dogs that were "natural" at whatever I'm wanting to see. I've recently seen a few dogs at a trainer that absolutely won't retrieve, no way, no how. Will they finish their FC or AFC? Likely so, because this trainer can get compliance. Will they ever excel at it - nope. They may never even like it. And that's a shame. I want a dog that WANTS to win, WANTS to find birds, and WANTS to retrieve. You can breed for that - you can't always train for it.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:03 pm

I go for the biggest running parents I can find that will go with you. I can train the rest. Early exposure to northern wild birds will give them birds sense, FF will take care of the retrieving. I know how to reel them in, and can push them out some, but they must have the independence gene.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by oldbeek » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:55 pm

Have a dog out of tequila smoker line and Peter gun line. Big running Brittanys. Dog would range to 1/4 mile at 13 weeks old. Bird finding machine. FF was a chore but she fetches anything now.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:34 am

There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:44 am

DonF wrote:...I'd would only buy from breeder's like that...
Totally agree on this - develop a relationship with some of these and let them know what you want. Don't be in a hurry and wait for a good one!

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by SCT » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:29 pm

DonF wrote:There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.
+2 That's how I find my breeders though. After much observation and development on wild birds. By a year old I can tell a lot about the dog.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:02 pm

Quite some time ago I was given this advice on the best way to a winning Shooting Dog "Buy the best AA stock you can find and teach the dog to handle."
Still makes sense to me.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:44 pm

SCT wrote:
DonF wrote:There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.
+2 That's how I find my breeders though. After much observation and development on wild birds. By a year old I can tell a lot about the dog.
So, if you are a trialer, you need to breed your own? You need to keep them all to find the best one and "cull" the rest. It is hard to find hunting families that want a pup that is past the cute stage. I am not saying this is wrong, but you will find it harder to place your non competition pups.

I have thought about giving price reductions to the people that commit to competing the pup through Juvenal stakes.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:19 pm

I have trialed 2 dogs since I started trials in 2005 I picked both those pups as they came out of the shoot so to speak. Star was the first she is FC Vonzeppelins Distant Star,Storm was the 2nd he just needs his retrieving points to finish
his FC.Maybe I was lucky but I believe about half the pups in each of those litters could have finished if given the chance.There was one female in the same litter as Storm that was trialed around 1 yr before being sold.
She had puppy & derby placements.She was sold to a NSTRA trialer & accumulated 5 points in about 7 trials & hasn't been run since that I'm aware of.
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by SCT » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:23 pm

AZBrittguy, I'm not saying YOU should breed your own, just saying that's the only way I will do it. I will keep these two males https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX1Eg3CDnxA until I can decide between the two, which one I like the most (four weeks old). I believe they will both be real nice pups because of the breeding, I just don't want 2nd, 4th, or 8th pick on any given litter. Besides, I can pick the male I want to breed to if I have the kind of female I want, which I do!

Here's the pup I picked from this females last litter.

Image

She just took a third place in the Oregon Open Derby at 8 months old. Nothing remarkable about the competition, except the other dogs were likely 20 months old or more.

As far as selling teenagers, yeah, you might have to sell at a discount, but it's worth it to me to be able to SELECT the ones I think are the best for breeding. Just my personal belief!

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by jetjockey » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:24 am

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:
SCT wrote:
DonF wrote:There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.
+2 That's how I find my breeders though. After much observation and development on wild birds. By a year old I can tell a lot about the dog.
So, if you are a trialer, you need to breed your own? You need to keep them all to find the best one and "cull" the rest. It is hard to find hunting families that want a pup that is past the cute stage. I am not saying this is wrong, but you will find it harder to place your non competition pups.

I have thought about giving price reductions to the people that commit to competing the pup through Juvenal stakes.
I think that if you want to win at the highest level, and not just get that one lucky dog, you probably should. Because that's what the guys at the top are doing. My brit Pro breeds a lot of dogs, and goes through a lot of dogs trying to find his clients top dogs. If I told my pro to find me a 1hr AA dog that can compete with the best, and be in the running for the dog of the year award on and a consistent basis, he would do it. It would probably take a while to find the dog, but it would eventually happen... However, for me, I bred to the best stud I could find, and crossed my fingers. With any luck the pup I picked from my litter will turn out to be a great trial dog. If not, she will be a great hunting buddy.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:43 am

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:You need to keep them all to find the best one and "cull" the rest... you will find it harder to place your non competition pups.
If the breeding is right, and you keep HIGH standards for the one you keep, those dogs you cull should be BRAG gun dogs, NSTRA or walking trial dogs for others. IMO sometimes it is easier to move/sell a quality gun dog at a started age because the buyer can see exactly what they are getting. Again, FT culls should be BRAG gun dogs, and at the right price can be a steal for hunters. JMO

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:05 am

PntrRookie wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:You need to keep them all to find the best one and "cull" the rest... you will find it harder to place your non competition pups.
If the breeding is right, and you keep HIGH standards for the one you keep, those dogs you cull should be BRAG gun dogs, NSTRA or walking trial dogs for others. IMO sometimes it is easier to move/sell a quality gun dog at a started age because the buyer can see exactly what they are getting. Again, FT culls should be BRAG gun dogs, and at the right price can be a steal for hunters. JMO
I agree with that philosophy. Even though you breed to and with the best you can, AA dogs don't come out of every litter. But as a by-product you should be able to have some real good hunting dogs.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by markj » Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:40 am

In this day and age, the PC has corrupted many a good dog and owner. You all way over think everything, let it go. Use the Delmar Smith method. He picks a litter on blood, then goes and takes the last pup, the leftover, now you all may get all uppity but that man took them pups to national champ status. His method is all in the training. I follow his methods and it has given me great hunting dogs for over 50 years now. You simply cannot count on just breeding, there has to be great training along with it. Delmar said he could train a dog to do just about anything.

Git off the internets and go outside for some sunshine and fun. Dogs cannot type nor can they understand a PC. Get old school, the dogs the main ingredient.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by jetjockey » Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:40 am

In theory, that's sounds great. I can't tell you for a fact though that the same trainer can take an entire litter, and every dog will turn out different. It's not a big deal with hunting dogs because they aren't typically held to the same standard as a trial dog. But not every dog is going to make it, and very few become AA dogs, even when trained by the same person.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:49 pm

Both the dogs Star & Storm are shooting dogs.They both have or are running ! hr SD CH competitively.Star was a BIG SD that hurt herself in AKC GD stakes by running TOO BIG when birds were hard to come by.She was retired the day she finished her FC because a shoulder injury.She was a Tweener!

Storm is a medium range SD & is still improving the op is wanting to produce SD not AA but I believe breeding 2 AA dogs gives the best chance though Star came from an AA to a Gun Dog breeding & Storm a SD to that same GUN Dog.
Keep them as long as you can to pick what you want but few have the means to do that. :)

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Sharon » Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:27 pm

DonF wrote:There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.
Well said except I like puppies. :)

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:29 pm

markj wrote:In this day and age, the PC has corrupted many a good dog and owner. You all way over think everything, let it go. Use the Delmar Smith method. He picks a litter on blood, then goes and takes the last pup, the leftover, now you all may get all uppity but that man took them pups to national champ status. His method is all in the training. I follow his methods and it has given me great hunting dogs for over 50 years now. You simply cannot count on just breeding, there has to be great training along with it. Delmar said he could train a dog to do just about anything.

Git off the internets and go outside for some sunshine and fun. Dogs cannot type nor can they understand a PC. Get old school, the dogs the main ingredient.

Did that already. He is coming up 2 years old with a bunch Puppy and Derby dog of the year awards for 2014. To be honest I picked him based on colour and we all know how taboo that is. He is being trained using the Huntsmith method.
However I want something that rolls bigger and its tough to find a breeding with the kind of constancy as this line and this breeding did when it comes to AF/NGSPA GSPs.

Here he is in 2013 as a 6 month old pup with the HOF'er himself
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Devilscreekw » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:10 am

Here he is in 2013 as a 6 month old pup with the HOF'er himself[/quote]

I believe you have Rick Smith mistaken for Delmar...no offence to either of those worthy gentlemen.
BUT.....nice dog none the less

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Grange » Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:34 am

DonF wrote:There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.
Like you I like puppies so this course of action probably wouldn't be my first choice, but there is another reason it wouldn't be my first choice. When I see started dogs for sale they are often the dogs that aren't cutting it as a trial dog prospect for one reason or another. I don't know how many breeders will part with a good trial dog prospect especially at a good price. I'm looking for a dog that will make a judge go "wow", which is what the breeders I contact are likely looking for as well. I'd rather work with a breeder to find a breeding that fits my needs and hope to get a good prospect rather than get a started dog that is for sale because it isn't as good a prospect as the breeder is looking for. Now if I could find a started dog at a decent price that the breeder thinks it will make a judge go "wow" and I could get over missing the puppy stage then it may be a good idea, but that may be like finding a 4-leaved clover.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:18 am

Devilscreekw wrote:Here he is in 2013 as a 6 month old pup with the HOF'er himself
I believe you have Rick Smith mistaken for Delmar...no offence to either of those worthy gentlemen.
BUT.....nice dog none the less[/quote]

Like father like son :wink:

Rick was inducted into the Brittany HOF in february. Same training methods and the same methods of picking dogs.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:52 am

I agree with both Grange and Jet Jocky. If a pro has a dog up for sale you need to do your homework before buying him. On the other hand, If you are a good customer of a pro and he finds a great prospect, he will want you to own him and foot the bill to keep him on his string.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:04 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:If a pro has a dog up for sale you need to do your homework before buying him.
You should do your homework on EVERY started dog you buy. Build a relationship with a Pro and you will not have a problem. They do not want their names tarnished by selling junk.
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:On the other hand, If you are a good customer of a pro and he finds a great prospect, he will want you to own him and foot the bill to keep him on his string.
Most Pros do not want to foot the bill for field trialing out of their own pocket. They probably will not keep a trial prospect for themselves. Their ultimate goal is to sell them and keep them on their string. At the top levels, unless it is a successful Amateur breeder/field trialer, you will rarely if ever see the Pro's name be the owner.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by SCT » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:41 pm

Grange wrote:
DonF wrote:There's one big problem with buying from breeding like this. At 8 weeks you don';t have a clue if you got the big runner you want, a shooting dog, a foot dog or a boot polisher. I think that breeders that are really trying to create better trial dog's keep them the better part of the first year to evaluate them. Then they have a real good idea of what is going on with their breeding. I have noticed over the years a number of those breeder's. they keep the dog's seven or eight month's then sell off the one's they don't think will make it for less than most breeders sell 8 week old puppies. if i didn't like puppy's I'd would only buy from breeder's like that. They are truly trying to advance the breed rather than selling puppy's based on big name winner's in the blood line.
Like you I like puppies so this course of action probably wouldn't be my first choice, but there is another reason it wouldn't be my first choice. When I see started dogs for sale they are often the dogs that aren't cutting it as a trial dog prospect for one reason or another. I don't know how many breeders will part with a good trial dog prospect especially at a good price. I'm looking for a dog that will make a judge go "wow", which is what the breeders I contact are likely looking for as well. I'd rather work with a breeder to find a breeding that fits my needs and hope to get a good prospect rather than get a started dog that is for sale because it isn't as good a prospect as the breeder is looking for. Now if I could find a started dog at a decent price that the breeder thinks it will make a judge go "wow" and I could get over missing the puppy stage then it may be a good idea, but that may be like finding a 4-leaved clover.
Grange, I would also agree with this if it were feasible. At least getting a WOW dog at good price (whatever that means $500????). There are a lot of reasons why a "started" dog may not be completely desired for field trialing. A lot of those reasons will never be missed by someone wanting to place in some local field trials or used for upland hunting. The majority of dogs ran in field trials, be it pro (open), or amateur will go home without placements.

I personally believe the breeding of aa to aa or sd to sd isn't as important as the heart, drive, and bird finding ability of the individual dogs being used for breeding. Some SD Champions would do great at All Age trials and some short SDs have placements in AA stakes. It's about the individual dog to me, more so than the placements said dog has under their belt. But that's just me. And, even more important is previous production! I know of A CH to CH AA breeding I wouldn't touch, it's all about the match-up!

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:08 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:If a pro has a dog up for sale you need to do your homework before buying him.
You should do your homework on EVERY started dog you buy. Build a relationship with a Pro and you will not have a problem. They do not want their names tarnished by selling junk.
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:On the other hand, If you are a good customer of a pro and he finds a great prospect, he will want you to own him and foot the bill to keep him on his string.
Most Pros do not want to foot the bill for field trialing out of their own pocket. They probably will not keep a trial prospect for themselves. Their ultimate goal is to sell them and keep them on their string. At the top levels, unless it is a successful Amateur breeder/field trialer, you will rarely if ever see the Pro's name be the owner.
Just to be clear PntrRookie, I am not taking any "shots" at the pros. They are in business to win and keep their customers happy. They are not in the business of owning dogs. Don't read anythiy negative in to what I am saying

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PntrRookie
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:33 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Don't read anythiy negative in to what I am saying
Not at all...actually it is a good point to "get out there" to those who may feel Pros/breeders keep all the good ones.

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Sharon
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Sharon » Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:54 pm

"Delmar Smith / Rick method: He picks a litter on blood, then goes and takes the last pup, the leftover." quote

Hard for me to believe this is a good plan, but also hard to question someone with Rick's success.

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Postby slistoe » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:02 pm

"Quite some time ago I was given this advice on the best way to a winning Shooting Dog "Buy the best AA stock you can find and teach the dog to handle.
Still makes sense to me." quote

Exactly.

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ezzy333
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:31 pm

Sharon wrote:"Delmar Smith / Rick method: He picks a litter on blood, then goes and takes the last pup, the leftover." quote

Hard for me to believe this is a good plan, but also hard to question someone with Rick's success.

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Postby slistoe » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:02 pm

"Quite some time ago I was given this advice on the best way to a winning Shooting Dog "Buy the best AA stock you can find and teach the dog to handle.
Still makes sense to me." quote

Exactly.
Sharon, that was not Rick's quote or method. That was Delmar's, However, I agree Rick is just using what Delmar created and taught Rick and the boys are selling it with their seminars.

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:57 pm

Another old story. A very successful Brittany Pro family from Illinois once had their Patriarch say that he would pick the blood then separate the males from the females in separate boxes then turn his head away and reach in and pick one. LOL!

I have also heard from knowledgeable people that the "right" female puts more run in the dog than the males.
Last edited by AZ Brittany Guy on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cstokes/southeast,ks
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by cstokes/southeast,ks » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:40 pm

IMO: A big running dog doesn't really matter if they dont handle whether it be AAXAA or any venue x venue for that matter. So how the parents handle is would be high on my list along with nose. You have to have those to key components before range does any good.

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ezzy333
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:46 pm

cstokes/southeast,ks wrote:IMO: A big running dog doesn't really matter if they dont handle whether it be AAXAA or any venue x venue for that matter. So how the parents handle is would be high on my list along with nose. You have to have those to key components before range does any good.
I agree but handling is probably 75% training and I really am not sure there is much difference in smelling ability. Probably has more to do with attitude than smelling.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by slistoe » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:19 pm

Whether nose is a physical characteristic or a mental attribute, the question is "Can it be inherited?" I believe so.
Sure, handling can be trained - at the expense of much time and effort for some dogs - why start there when there are dogs that will naturally "go with you" right out of the box - another mental attribute that is influenced by genetics IMO.
If a dog is a consistent performer in the All Age arena it is very, very likely that it has a strong dose of nose and a good deal of "go with".

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by jetjockey » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:13 pm

Not necessarily. My dog does a half way decent job competing against the best All Age brits in the country. She had to learn how to go with. The first time she was released off horse, she "went with" about 1000 yards in the opposite direction. :D It took her a while to figure it out.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by slistoe » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:38 pm

Lets just say I have seen far more dogs that are "self hunters" in the hunting field working inside of 150 yards than I have seen at All Age trials.
Handling must be trained - but it is easier with the dogs that do it naturally - especially when you are asking them to do it at distances approaching 1/2 mile and sometimes more.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by markj » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:31 am

I think everyone should read Delmars book, lots of good stuff in there. Don't over think it, just pick the line you want and go for it.

I like Odysey kennels stuff for a shorthair. DC lines do it all and look great doing it. :)

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by RyanDoolittle » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:15 am

markj wrote:I think everyone should read Delmars book, lots of good stuff in there. Don't over think it, just pick the line you want and go for it.

I like Odysey kennels stuff for a shorthair. DC lines do it all and look great doing it. :)

Thats what the above dog is.
DC Gambles Sam Man x CH Snips Bring it On bradi (littermate to Sixth Sens Wyatt). Fritz is grandsire on top and botom. However I want more range.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by slistoe » Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:47 pm

Any reason you aren't having Steve or Mike hook you up with a pup?

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markj
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by markj » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:19 am

Thats what the above dog is.
DC Gambles Sam Man x CH Snips Bring it On bradi (littermate to Sixth Sens Wyatt). Fritz is grandsire on top and botom. However I want more range
Now thems some fine blood lines to go with right there. The range is a trained thing not inherited. You train for independence, not for the dog to always be looking for you. I saw fritz run once in Lincoln he ranged way out there. Did the retrieve call back with a lot of style too. Shoulda got a pup out of my other girl, she is ret now tho. Her pups wanted to hunt in the next country :) really upset the cousins used springers as they were right there at all times :) She still puts birds on the table tho.

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SCT
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by SCT » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:10 am

[/quote The range is a trained thing not inherited.[/quote]

Range is not inherited?? Really??

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:19 am

SCT wrote:[/quote The range is a trained thing not inherited.
Range is not inherited?? Really??[/quote]

I was asking myself the same question... :?

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by jetjockey » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:20 am

SCT wrote:[/quote The range is a trained thing not inherited.
Range is not inherited?? Really??[/quote]
That's the first time I've ever heard that.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Quailcommando » Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:58 am

markj wrote:

Now thems some fine blood lines to go with right there. The range is a trained thing not inherited.
If that was true you would have 60 AA and 15 GD in every championship but it's the opposite.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by markj » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:03 pm

Most dogs are dependant on their owners, as such they refuse to range way out there. Train them to be independent and they will range further, also in a field full of birds, well range isn't on their minds at all.

Training is 90% of the dogs run in FT world. And room to run out, see here most guys work their pups way to early. Gotta get that title as soon as possible, let them run for a year, then train. You get a different type of dog that way. I have one that will hunt to the hills, never checking back, I will find her on point. I have another was gun shy I broke to hunt but he ranges a lot closer always keeping me in his sight. He is from a FT kennel too. He was trained to fear the gun, he still does but we get it done.

As long as you have a good line that is. Go to any circus and watch them folks train, they can get any animal to do any thing.

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