Breeding Shooting Dogs

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SCT
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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by SCT » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:44 pm

If we are talking natural range, that's all inherited, but, if we are talking controlled range, that's environmental, and is caused by trainer/owner. I encourage pattern to the front from when they are very young by walking fast through the field. After they have progressed (6 months old) I will send them to horseback kindergarten;-)

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by markj » Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:26 pm

Well you need a good dog first :) out of good lines. I'm no pro but I belive training can make a winner but like Delmar said, find the line you like and go get a pup. He turned left over pups into national champs thru training. Go old school, I think the old methods made better dogs. Took more yard work tho.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:19 pm

At 8 weeks old its a complete crap shoot, regardless of what anyone says!

I do agree that range can be inhibited through training, one thing I see a lot is guys using tons of pen raised birds early in a dogs life. So in a dogs mind, there are birds EVERYWHERE. Why would he need to range far to find birds when he is accustomed to them being all over the place. I rarely if ever use pigeons/pen birds for training, if my dogs get 1 bird contact in an hour when I am training on wild birds I am super happy. But my dogs stretch out to find birds because finding birds is always at a premium. And not to mention application wins trials!

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:53 pm

Elkhunter wrote:At 8 weeks old its a complete crap shoot, regardless of what anyone says!

Very true

Mike

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:40 am

I've heard it said, that the biggest and most important difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is the owner. The owner (trialer or hunter) guides the pup through different processes depending on the goal.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by slistoe » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:01 am

Gordon Guy wrote:I've heard it said, that the biggest and most important difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is the owner. The owner (trialer or hunter) guides the pup through different processes depending on the goal.
The biggest difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is which day I have the dog on the ground. (Given the quality of the dog is there).

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:19 am

slistoe wrote:
Gordon Guy wrote:I've heard it said, that the biggest and most important difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is the owner. The owner (trialer or hunter) guides the pup through different processes depending on the goal.
The biggest difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is which day I have the dog on the ground. (Given the quality of the dog is there).
That might be true for someone who knows how to develop a trial dog but also hunts with that same trial dogs. Whereas someone who knows very little about trials could unknowingly be teaching the dogs things that would not be so good for trials!

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Dwells » Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:57 pm

Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs
by Gordon Guy » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:40 am

I've heard it said, that the biggest and most important difference between a trial dog and a hunting dog is the owner. The owner (trialer or hunter) guides the pup through different processes depending on the goal.



Now my 2 cents

The difference between a trial dog and hunting dog is like bringing a pony to the Kentucky Derby. You could take 100 gundogs and put them with Robin Gates, with an unlimited budget and in the end you would some great gundogs, but very very few real trial dogs.

Genetics account for more than people admit. Everyone just likes to think the only difference between Ch Miller's Dialin In and good old Fido is the money spent on him.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:38 pm

Dwells, while I agree with you. Think about the other side of your statement. What about the gundog pups purchased from SD or AA lines that had the run taken out of them by hunters. What about those dogs being with Robin Gates? Not trying to argue. Just my 2 cents.

Mike

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Dwells » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:49 pm

The percentage of trial dogs bred by Robin or any other big time pro, that actually make real AA dogs is very slim. Most make 30 minute stake dogs or good gundogs, because a real All Age dog is very rare. Most of these dogs end up on a quail plantation.

A breeder is lucky if he gets one from a litter. And that is breeding best to the best. Getting a true all age dog from two foot dogs is possible, but so is winning the lottery.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:55 pm

I didn't mean the pups gundog owners would make an AA dog. But they very well could make a SD with right up bringing.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by Dwells » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:56 pm

Very true

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by codym » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:21 pm

birdogg42 wrote:I didn't mean the pups gundog owners would make an AA dog. But they very well could make a SD with right up bringing.

I still have trouble believing this. A powerful hour shooting dog isn't as un-common as a tue AA dog, but still much rarer than people give credit to. Just because a dog can run around for 30-45 minutes and find a bird or two doesn't make it a class shooting dog. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but to me there is a huge difference between your average walking dog and a HB shooting dog. If you look at most any HB shooting dog CH you are gonna have 40 plus dogs. You need to have a dog that makes the judges sit up and take notice for the whole brace, scortch the earth, have great style running and pointed, handle, stay to the front, have impeccable manners, and most of all find birds. It takes a special blend of genetics, talent (both dog and handler), development, and training. I think one trait is worthless without the other. You can have the most talented dog in the world but with out the right trainer to develop and train or the right owner to finance he is just another bird dog, on the other hand you can have the greatest trainer but if the dog doesn't have the talent (ie. style, stamina, courage, bird finding ability) exposure will be inevitable. I could enter a walking gundog in every AA stake I could find, but that doesn't make him an AA dog. I think people believe that just because a dog isn't AA he is obviously a SD which isnt the case. I hope this made sense, just my humble opinion, which according to my wife doesn't count for much!

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:36 pm

Cody I value your opinion. But I also didn't mean they all would be SD champions. But I really believe they would compete. Not all of them but about the same number of dogs as it takes to find a SD prospect.

Mike

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by codym » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:22 am

birdogg42 wrote:Cody I value your opinion. But I also didn't mean they all would be SD champions. But I really believe they would compete. Not all of them but about the same number of dogs as it takes to find a SD prospect.

Mike

Mike I get what your saying, sometimes I get caught up with if a dog can win a ch's or not and not necessarily just competing. Your right I think we are in agreement though. I hate to mention this, but I also think you are far more likely to get a SD prospect out of walking pointer or setter breeding than you would with walking trial dogs out of other breeds, you could proably throw some lines of GSP's in there as well.

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:52 am

codym wrote:
birdogg42 wrote:Cody I value your opinion. But I also didn't mean they all would be SD champions. But I really believe they would compete. Not all of them but about the same number of dogs as it takes to find a SD prospect.

Mike

Mike I get what your saying, sometimes I get caught up with if a dog can win a ch's or not and not necessarily just competing. Your right I think we are in agreement though. I hate to mention this, but I also think you are far more likely to get a SD prospect out of walking pointer or setter breeding than you would with walking trial dogs out of other breeds, you could proably throw some lines of GSP's in there as well.
Look at my avatar. You know I agree with you there! J/k

Mike

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by codym » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:11 pm

Thats a great looking dog mike, how's she bred?

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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by birdogg42 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:51 pm


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Re: Breeding Shooting Dogs

Post by markj » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:28 am

Genetics account for more than people admit.
That's why you pick the line, then grab a pup. Training has a lot to do with it too. More than folks realize. Brains is most important in the dog, well the owner too :)

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