Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

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Southern_Point
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Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Southern_Point » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:40 pm

The guys I will be hunting quail with this year have dogs that are not broke. My setter will be broke by this hunting season and just wondering how bad is it gonna hurt her training to hunt her with unbroke dogs?? Any tips or suggestions?

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Kellym » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:03 pm

Southern_Point wrote:The guys I will be hunting quail with this year have dogs that are not broke. My setter will be broke by this hunting season and just wondering how bad is it gonna hurt her training to hunt her with unbroke dogs?? Any tips or suggestions?
I'll be interested to see responses on this. IMO if you dog is broke you may have to make a few more corrections than normal. I don't like hunting with dogs that don't back but my Dogs will hold until released. They may however test me when other dogs want to run past but I just enforce making them stand. It can be a bit frustrating but as long as you correct your dog it shouldn't be a problem. Again just my opinion

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:28 pm

If it was my dog and it was just broke and this was its first season it is a no brainer for me.

I would never deliberately put the dog down with another dog that was not broke. Period.

Hunting a recently broke dog with unbroken dogs is almost certain to waste all the time and effort it took to get your dog broke. It may also make getting your dog broke again, much more difficult.

Stuff happens, even with supposedly "dead broke" dogs. They are not machines and even the best trained dog will mess up occasionally.. I see no reason to put a dog that is just recently broke under that kind of pressure and set it up for an almost certain failure. You should be setting it up for success, not failure.

Let them hunt their dogs. When their dogs are done and put away, take yours out and let everyone hut yours. If the guys you hunt with don't understand, they are not really dog men.

You need to decide whether your friends and the hunt are more important than your dog's training. There is no right or wrong answer. I would choose the dog and its training and future every time. I have in fact and only hunt with a very few like minded folks. But that is just me. You need to do what is right for you.

Your dog...your call.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by shags » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:32 pm

What Ray said so well.

It's just not fair to your dog...i wouldn't even think about doing it.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by codym » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:38 pm

This can be a good thing or a bad thing. The good= if your patient enough to deal with another dog stealing point, not backing, taking retrieves and so fourth it can be great proofing for your dog. Thats only the case if you are willing to put your gun down and correct your dog right away. If you can keep a dog dead broke while another dog steals point and shags birds which in my experience many un-broke dogs do, you can be really proud as your dog is dead broke. If you choose to do this make it a training session more than a hunt and if you see any let down in your dog I would put him up.

The bad= an unbroken dog doing that stuff can get annoying really quick. Also if your dog does start slipping and you don't make corrections immediately you can see all your hard work and training go right down the tube in just a few hunts. When I first started out I had a amazing pointer bitch that I wanted to run in NSTRA, I broke her to go on the shot. Only problem is she was a big running shooting dog and in some areas an AA dog. You could hold her in the field for 2 or 3 finds but after that she would open up and be gone. I decided to move into HB shooting dog and got her broke with a blank pistol Steady to wing and shot, but she always remembered the shot gun. If we were bird hunting and I shot, she knew I couldn't correct her and would be off with the birds. An amazingly smart dog and still my favorite, but proof that you never want them to learn they can forget their manners in certain situations.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by cjhills » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:40 pm

It ain't worth it. It sounds like your dog is young and just being broke. It is a lot of pressure on a young dog to watch other dogs chase. It takes all the fun out of hunting for you and your dog to ride him constantly tom keep him steady. Also keep in mind that unless your dog hunts really close you will not be near enough to defuse the situation when the bird busters come by. your dog will likely enjoy the chase. Your training may go down the tubes quick. Just Don't...................Cj

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by shags » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:37 am

codym wrote:This can be a good thing or a bad thing. The good= if your patient enough to deal with another dog stealing point, not backing, taking retrieves and so fourth it can be great proofing for your dog. Thats only the case if you are willing to put your gun down and correct your dog right away. If you can keep a dog dead broke while another dog steals point and shags birds which in my experience many un-broke dogs do, you can be really proud as your dog is dead broke. If you choose to do this make it a training session more than a hunt and if you see any let down in your dog I would put him up.
I have to disagree with this in the context of a day of hunting with others. Proofing a dog doesn't mean exposing it to multiple stolen points or retrieves by multiple dogs for multiple days. Proofing is training, and should be limited to once in a while when the handler's focus is on training, not filling his vest. How can you move in for a timely correction when you have active gunners?

Agreed that having a dog stand broke through the chaos caused by an unbroke bracemate is a source of pride, but I would not expect that kind of performance from a very green dog. Nowhere to go but backwards....until the dog has proven itself under more controlled situations.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:31 am

shags wrote:
codym wrote:This can be a good thing or a bad thing. The good= if your patient enough to deal with another dog stealing point, not backing, taking retrieves and so fourth it can be great proofing for your dog. Thats only the case if you are willing to put your gun down and correct your dog right away. If you can keep a dog dead broke while another dog steals point and shags birds which in my experience many un-broke dogs do, you can be really proud as your dog is dead broke. If you choose to do this make it a training session more than a hunt and if you see any let down in your dog I would put him up.
I have to disagree with this in the context of a day of hunting with others. Proofing a dog doesn't mean exposing it to multiple stolen points or retrieves by multiple dogs for multiple days. Proofing is training, and should be limited to once in a while when the handler's focus is on training, not filling his vest. How can you move in for a timely correction when you have active gunners?

Agreed that having a dog stand broke through the chaos caused by an unbroke bracemate is a source of pride, but I would not expect that kind of performance from a very green dog. Nowhere to go but backwards....until the dog has proven itself under more controlled situations.
That's a BINGO! training is training, hunting is hunting. You try your best to maintain training while hunting, but to try and train and correct and reinforce while hunting usually interferes with the hunt. I know it does for me. When I am hunting I am hunting...unless the dog does something I cannot allow it to get away with. Then we stop hunting. But again, that is my way.

It all depends on what kind of dog you want to hunt with.

RayG

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:46 am

With today's e-collars I can continue to train as I hunt. It really doesn't matter what the other dogs do or don't do, they are held to the level they have attained. Occasionally I have to pass up a shot or two, but for the most part I just hunt. If my dog starts to act confused or lack confidence I will put them up, and train more, but it rarely happens and not a big deal if it does. I can have two dogs down and continue to train and hunt.

Dogs are capable of much more than we ask.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by SetterNut » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:52 am

I would avoid hunting your newly broke dog with one that is not. You are going to have to put way more pressure on your dog than you really want to IMO.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by codym » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:19 am

shags wrote:
codym wrote:This can be a good thing or a bad thing. The good= if your patient enough to deal with another dog stealing point, not backing, taking retrieves and so fourth it can be great proofing for your dog. Thats only the case if you are willing to put your gun down and correct your dog right away. If you can keep a dog dead broke while another dog steals point and shags birds which in my experience many un-broke dogs do, you can be really proud as your dog is dead broke. If you choose to do this make it a training session more than a hunt and if you see any let down in your dog I would put him up.
I have to disagree with this in the context of a day of hunting with others. Proofing a dog doesn't mean exposing it to multiple stolen points or retrieves by multiple dogs for multiple days. Proofing is training, and should be limited to once in a while when the handler's focus is on training, not filling his vest. How can you move in for a timely correction when you have active gunners?

Agreed that having a dog stand broke through the chaos caused by an unbroke bracemate is a source of pride, but I would not expect that kind of performance from a very green dog. Nowhere to go but backwards....until the dog has proven itself under more controlled situations.

Agree to disagree. Hunting for me is about the dog work and not filling my game bag. When I hunt a freshly broke dog I am looking for situations to make corrections. If he bumps a bird perfect time to reinforce stop to flush, if he moves when on point I put the gun down and set him back. Now I agree if you don't have a very solid foundation in place then it can be alot of pressure on a dog. The people I hunt with understand that I am there for the dogs first and the hunt second so there are many times when dogs are on point I will have them flush and shoot while I watch my dog. I only shoot birds over a broke dog when they do everything right. I have had brace-mate in field trials steal point, not listen, and cause havoc and I want my dog to be able to deal with that. Different stokes I guess, and I agree it's not for every dog or trainer, but I believe it can be beneficial if you focus on your dog and aren't concerned so much with shooting stuff.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Jun 14, 2015 12:09 pm

Neil wrote:With today's e-collars I can continue to train as I hunt. It really doesn't matter what the other dogs do or don't do, they are held to the level they have attained. Occasionally I have to pass up a shot or two, but for the most part I just hunt. If my dog starts to act confused or lack confidence I will put them up, and train more, but it rarely happens and not a big deal if it does. I can have two dogs down and continue to train and hunt.

Dogs are capable of much more than we ask.

Ding Ding...This....I wont hesitate to run my dogs with any others. If your dog is truly honest than it shouldn't be a problem. Worst case scenario, put the gun down and work your dog. There is no difference for me between training and hunting because your always training. Experience is the best teacher.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by luvthemud » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:22 pm

I think it depends more on the other people you are with more than the other dogs. I hunted with 2 groups of very different hunters. One I wouldn't take my dog with because I felt that the environment would hurt his training. I knew I wouldn't have time to properly correct or pay as close of attention as I should. My normal group isn't about filling the bag and have no problem passing up birds or waiting for me to do what I want to do.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Southern_Point » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:32 pm

Thanks to everyone who posted ur advice was much needed. I am going to be on the cautious side and try my best to keep her out of situations where she is hunted with dogs that are not broke. Even though it will be tempting to put her down bc I don't want to act like my dog is better than there's and too good to hunt with there's, but they will just have to understand. She will be with Maurice lindley until hunting season and I don't think it's a good idea to chance messing up her training by hunting her with 2 unbroke dogs.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:33 pm

[quote="Southern_Point"]Thanks to everyone who posted ur advice was much needed. I am going to be on the cautious side and try my best to keep her out of situations where she is hunted with dogs that are not broke. Even though it will be tempting to put her down bc I don't want to act like my dog is better than there's and too good to hunt with there's, but they will just have to understand. She will be with Maurice lindley until hunting season and I don't think it's a good idea to chance messing up her training by hunting her with 2 unbroke dogs.[/quote

I think you picked a winner for a trainer. If you want the most well informed opinion...ask Mo how you should proceed, well before you go to pick the dog up. Explain the situation that you will be facing, perhaps somewhere in August or September. I am sure he won't be super pleased with the prospect of having his training come unspooled, but he will be in the best position to tell you how your dog will probably react...and what you should do about it.

He may be able to tailor some training and proofing for the situation to help both you and your dog through. A little training the trainer is probably a great idea. Talk to him. Listen to what he says. He knows the dog best.

RayG

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:58 pm

Had I only known your dog was with such esteemed trainer my advice would have been the same as Ray' s.

It is not wise to ask advice on the internet with the limited information given, when you have an expert that knows the dog well, and a little about you. I have to guess, he knows.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by codym » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:23 pm

I agree, I was assuming you were gonna break the dog yourself. It may be best to be cautious like you mentioned.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by NEhomer » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:11 am

Why on earth wouldn't you want your buddies to think your dog is better than their's? That's what buddies are for! :D

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by shags » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:22 am

Neil wrote:Had I only known your dog was with such esteemed trainer my advice would have been the same as Ray' s.

It is not wise to ask advice on the internet with the limited information given, when you have an expert that knows the dog well, and a little about you. I have to guess, he knows.
codym wrote:I agree, I was assuming you were gonna break the dog yourself. It may be best to be cautious like you entioned.

:?: Wondering why advice to the OP would be different depending on who is breaking the dog? Running a very green dog with unbroke dogs will have the same consequences no matter who had done the breaking, no?
Can either of you name a pro trainer who would agree that it's a good idea to subject a *very green dog* to the sort of scenario the OP described? Wait a minute...let me qualify that...name a pro trainer who would agree to it, who wasn't looking forward to several more months of rebreaking the dog :lol: IME trainers prefer to give the dog every opportunity to stay clean until it has the confidence and maturity to withstand proofing let alone bracemates running amok.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:17 am

I said to follow the advice of an esteemed trainer, that is widely known for his honesty and capability.

I hunt all my dogs from the time they are big enough to get through the cover. Training is not a 3 month event, but continues until retired. And it really does not matter what their bracemate does.

I do not proof dogs, never set them up to fail, we build on success as situations arise.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by bobman » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:59 am

the reason I have 7 dogs is so I don't have to put them all down at the same time, rotate the dogs so they all get some time on the ground

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by codym » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:50 pm

:?: Wondering why advice to the OP would be different depending on who is breaking the dog? Running a very green dog with unbroke dogs will have the same consequences no matter who had done the breaking, no?
Can either of you name a pro trainer who would agree that it's a good idea to subject a *very green dog* to the sort of scenario the OP described? Wait a minute...let me qualify that...name a pro trainer who would agree to it, who wasn't looking forward to several more months of rebreaking the dog :lol: IME trainers prefer to give the dog every opportunity to stay clean until it has the confidence and maturity to withstand proofing let alone bracemates running amok.[/quote]


Because if your not the one that broke the dog and took him through every step in the progression then how in the world are you going to correct the behavior in a way the dog completely understands. I was asked my opinion as you were so I gave it, not to to give quotes from prominent trainers. I respect that this man is sending his dog to a very well know pro and he should follow his advice and program as close as possible, I would have not made my suggestion if I would have known that at the time.

It really changes things when one person breaks a dog or has someone do it for them. Breaking a dog is a delicate process and you learn the subleties about your dogs behaviors, about what they do and don't handle well, and what they are ready for and thus can make informed decisions on what to and not expose your dog to. If you aren't the person that took the dog through the process you may miss signs or correct in the wrong way. For a green dog that someone breaks for you it is proably best not to run them with an un-broke dog, but I think it's imperative the owner spend as much time with the trainer working his dog and finding out how to properly correct him, because at some point that dog will mess up and require correction regardless if his bracemate is broke un-broke or even if just running the dog alone.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:28 pm

Codym,

Well said.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by GWPtyler » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:16 pm

If I wanted to train during hunting season, I wouldn't hunt. For me, the fall time is no time to be assessing my dog in the field. It's for finding birds and filling the freezer.

Summers are for training. That's when we work on tightening the bolts.

Go out. Let your dog hunt. If other dogs break and it breaks, big deal. You can always crank the screws again when it's time to train.

Just my honest opinion.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:29 pm

GWPtyler wrote:If I wanted to train during hunting season, I wouldn't hunt. For me, the fall time is no time to be assessing my dog in the field. It's for finding birds and filling the freezer.

Summers are for training. That's when we work on tightening the bolts.

Go out. Let your dog hunt. If other dogs break and it breaks, big deal. You can always crank the screws again when it's time to train.

Just my honest opinion.
I start hunting in your neck of the woods in October and stop in Texas in February, if I let a young dog go uncorrected for that long it would be a hard to get them right.

When e-collars weighed half a pound and more, there was a risk of a dog getting collar wise. Short battery life and a lack of durability also restricted their continued use. But with today's collars my dogs always have one on when afield.

That said, I can hunt and train.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by ncpointers » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:10 pm

I wouldn't do it. Not worth the risk.

Good luck with your decision.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Soarer31 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:48 pm

I do it all the time...
.but only while training the unbroke though :wink:

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by GWPtyler » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:16 am

Neil wrote:I start hunting in your neck of the woods in October and stop in Texas in February, if I let a young dog go uncorrected for that long it would be a hard to get them right.

When e-collars weighed half a pound and more, there was a risk of a dog getting collar wise. Short battery life and a lack of durability also restricted their continued use. But with today's collars my dogs always have one on when afield.

That said, I can hunt and train.
I hunt August honkers through January roosters. Not sure what that has to do with anything. Dogs get loose, but that's OK. A quick session on homers and they're tight and true again, if I want.

I run them on e-collars at all times, just not in any hurry to correct them for busting after the flush or accidentally stealing a retrieve. Heck, for late-season roosters, I WANT my dogs breaking as soon as the bird is up. Runners in 3-foot drifts are tough to handle with a dog that's steady WSF.

But different strokes for different folks.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by GrayDawg » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:38 am

RayGubernat wrote:If it was my dog and it was just broke and this was its first season it is a no brainer for me.

I would never deliberately put the dog down with another dog that was not broke. Period.

Hunting a recently broke dog with unbroken dogs is almost certain to waste all the time and effort it took to get your dog broke. It may also make getting your dog broke again, much more difficult.

Stuff happens, even with supposedly "dead broke" dogs. They are not machines and even the best trained dog will mess up occasionally.. I see no reason to put a dog that is just recently broke under that kind of pressure and set it up for an almost certain failure. You should be setting it up for success, not failure.

Let them hunt their dogs. When their dogs are done and put away, take yours out and let everyone hut yours. If the guys you hunt with don't understand, they are not really dog men.

You need to decide whether your friends and the hunt are more important than your dog's training. There is no right or wrong answer. I would choose the dog and its training and future every time. I have in fact and only hunt with a very few like minded folks. But that is just me. You need to do what is right for you.

Your dog...your call.

RayG
That is THE BEST advice anyone is going to provide you on this matter. No BS, just the facts.........

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:51 am

GWP,

Please read your post, one of us misunderstand. You say Summer is for training, Fall is for hunting. I say you are always trading, if you didn't agree, at least in part, why put on an e-collar when hunting, or go back to basics during hunting season?

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by GWPtyler » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:12 am

Neil wrote:GWP,

Please read your post, one of us misunderstand. You say Summer is for training, Fall is for hunting. I say you are always trading, if you didn't agree, at least in part, why put on an e-collar when hunting, or go back to basics during hunting season?
I have an e-collar on my dog at all times for those "just in case moments." I can recall them from thick cover discretely with the tone function. I can send a correction now and then if they point a porky or skunk. Or I can have them hit the breaks if they're chasing a cripple that is high-tailing it toward a busy road.

E-collars are not solely for training purposes. They're multifaceted tools.

The OP asked what the repercussions were of running his newly broke dog with unbroken dogs. Lots of folks are stating they'll dish out corrections left and right as if it were a training session to keep their dogs tight and steady. Which is fine. Whatever floats their bots. I merely suggested that fall hunting isn't the time for focusing training, at least not for me. I'd rather let the dogs do what they're trained to do and let me focus on shooting birds. If a broke dog breaks, I'm not going to drop my gun and grab the e-collar to give a correction...I'm shooting the bird!

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by Neil » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:52 am

And I am saying that with dexterity and planning you can train and hunt.

My e-collar hangs upside down on my left side, I have corrected a dog between shots, just like you are able to do for other applications, I do it while hunting. I am not trying to float a boat, I am trying to impart a simple process you are refuting.

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Re: Hunting a broke dog with unbroken dog

Post by GWPtyler » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:51 pm

Neil wrote:And I am saying that with dexterity and planning you can train and hunt.

My e-collar hangs upside down on my left side, I have corrected a dog between shots, just like you are able to do for other applications, I do it while hunting. I am not trying to float a boat, I am trying to impart a simple process you are refuting.
I never refuted your process -- or your superior dexterity. 8)

Ideally, I never touch my transmitter during a hunt, no matter how tight or loose the dogs are acting. Just personal preference. Makes the day more enjoyable when I can relax and watch the show, versus worrying about laying down corrections.

Not stating one way is right or wrong. I've just hunted with a few guys who get so anxious about making sure their dogs are doing everything just right that they ruin the hunt for everyone else. Hunting is FUN. Time to chillax, watch the hounds and shoot some birds. :mrgreen:

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