How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

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ezzy333
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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:52 pm

Some how I think we have a different idea as to what pedigreed means Every dog has a pedigree but what you all are trying to say is registered. And in my mind every purebred dog should be registered, have the papers or at least the application, and would be nice to have a written pedigree come with it, Registration is not particularly costly but many people think they are worth a lot of money when they are the seller, while I think it is just something that comes with the pup.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:53 pm

By pedigreed bird dog, I mean a purposeful breeding, where the piece of paper with names worth looking at, and isn't just a bunch of no rhyme or reason bathtub breedings.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:29 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:By pedigreed bird dog, I mean a purposeful breeding, where the piece of paper with names worth looking at, and isn't just a bunch of no rhyme or reason bathtub breedings.
That seems to be the most common usage.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:02 am

pato y codoniz wrote:By pedigreed bird dog, I mean a purposeful breeding, where the piece of paper with names worth looking at, and isn't just a bunch of no rhyme or reason bathtub breedings.
There within would answer the OP !
Since we are talking $ ,then the pup would be a product of sale and the papers would identify the 'Brand' and as we all know ''Brand named products '' carry a premium over the 'plain labelled' ones :wink:
Anyhow, who decides what is 'Purposeful breeding' ? depends on the purpose. 'Names worth looking at'?.. There goes that $ value again :)

When selling anything a fool is easily parted with his/her money

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:39 am

Polmaise is right. Who decides purposeful breedings and names worth looking at. Mine may be very different than yours. Placements do not necessarily mean proven dogs. Much more likely proven trainers. Quality of the wins is much more important than the number of wins.
I could produce $400 puppies. People do it everyday. Put two dogs together and let them do what comes naturally. Some are pretty good dogs. But, if people want health tests, guarantees, genetic consistency, socialization, medical care and any number of things the cost goes up. Plus, a pretty good puppy cost $500 when I first started, gas was $.75 a gallon the rising prices have not kept up with inflation.
If you get the dog you expect it is a good deal at any price......Cj

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:06 am

The question is how much would you pay and that has little to do with quality of the pup. I find that the best way is to know the parents but if they are not available then the titles get some what important as that is the only clue you have to what characteristics does the puppy have. When I see the Ch. title I know the dog fits the standard of the breed I am buying. Field titles can give me an idea as to how the pup will hunt. AA titles means it will run, gundog says it may stay closer when hunting, obedience titles says it can be trained etc, but nothing replaces knowing the parents. And those may be your neighbors dog or a trial champion, and the best pup might be from either line but it performs the way you want it too. That is the best pup in the world.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by deke » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:31 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:There certainly is and that is true for everybody. However, the common phrase now for the sellers at least, is that the purchase is the cheapest part of the deal. Very true, just as it is with many things, but you seldom hear that from the same people when they are buying a car or most any other piece of property. My concern has always been that too often pups are priced way over what a young couple with small kids can or should spend. And that is just the time that a pup is most important and not when you are older and the kids are gone. That is the number one reason that our hunting and fishing outdoor live style is dying. We either can't or don't bother to get our own kids out with a dog and spend the time with them in the field learning about nature or passing on what we experienced when we were kids. When you can buy a powerful computer cheaper than you can buy a puppy it becomes very evident where our kids are heading. And we blame the kids instead of looking in a mirror.
People the age that have small kids rarely want to hunt upland birds, certainly not with the seriousness that would lead one to have a dog for it.

And before you tell me how wrong I am, it's my generation. Most of my peers don't hunt, and the vast majority that do chase deer and ducks. They are cooler.


Everyone I hunt with is under 30, most of us have kids or are currently having kids. We all hunt upland together, and I would say Ezzy hit the nail on the head. Most of the guys I hunt with are unsatisfied with the dog that they have because they went out and bought a $200 dollar pup and it was a dud right from the gate. Most young wives aren't willing to spend a few house payments on a puppy.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:57 pm

My boys and I are in that different phase. I buy what I want. The wife is ok with it. The boys find it hard to justify 1000 or 1200. They found a local unregistered litter from dogs they had seen hunt. The sire and dam were both registered one an import. No health checks. But healthy parents. Can't play the dog games but ended up with two dogs that are easy to live with and a real pleasure to hunt with. Paid 400. I paid 1000 for a big running ball of fire with enough drive for two dogs. Not sure who got the better deal. Just ordered another that will probably be her match.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by greg jacobs » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:09 pm

On top of that one of the boys dogs got Impaled on a sharp stick and didn't make it to the vet. They raised a second litter and gave him a new pup no charge. You can find dogs for less. The AA guys at times sell a quality young dog for very low prices because they aren't what they need but make the average hunter a great dog. Lots of ways to get a good dog for less money.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:18 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Field titles can give me an idea as to how the pup will hunt.
Not to labour any point or even the OP.
I disagree with this point ezzy333.
Field Titles can give an idea as to what level the handler/owner/trainer has accomplished with the sire or dam.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by northshore » Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:02 pm

There is the old saying you get what you pay for… but the reality is you get what you get. Ultimately the puppy will only develop into whatever you put into it.

Many breeders interpret our capitalistic society to mean they should get as much as possible by whatever justification necessary. In Germany, there is a suggested puppy price for all DK (GSP) breeders to follow.

Many buyers go through the experience only every decade or so, and as one who just went through it I saw prices all over the board.

After looking hard I found a GSP breeder in the mid-west with a professional facility and established international history, documented health clearances and a worldwide demand for pups. I’ve never spoken to a more knowledgeable person. Very straightforward with no dual ownership or weird BS and DK registration was included. $1,000 male or female. NAVHDA/AKC registration was on the buyer.

We traveled from the west coast to bring the pup back in the cabin after a bad experience flying our last one in cargo from New Zealand. We looked at one other breeder while in the area, my wife and our next pup immediately bonded and that was how that decision was made. Also at $1,000 with sire and dam already AKC registered so NAVHDA not required.

I think paying more may benefit the breeder, but not necessarily the buyer.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:40 pm

polmaise wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Field titles can give me an idea as to how the pup will hunt.
Not to labour any point or even the OP.
I disagree with this point ezzy333.
Field Titles can give an idea as to what level the handler/owner/trainer has accomplished with the sire or dam.
But the pup that becomes a winning trial dog or champion...had to have the tools in its toolbox already. The trainer can only develop what is already in there, they can't put it in. Nobody can.

Every pup is a crapshoot. We all know that. Even the best bred pup can be screwed up by a trainer who does not know what they are doing. We all know that, too.

But, I do feel that field titles can give a real, useful indication of what the pup may well be capable of, in the right hands. If you want a dog to hunt grouse, it makes a whole lot of sense to me to look for a pup whose parents have excelled at grouse trials, because both parents were born with the tools to do that.

You or I may never be able to bring a pup from that breeding to the level where it can win those trials, but it is a fair bet that SOMEBODY can...which means to me that the pup was born with the tools and abilities to be able to perform at the highest levels.

RayG

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:53 pm

I agree Ray! :D

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by polmaise » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:00 pm

RayGubernat wrote: But the pup that becomes a winning trial dog or champion...had to have the tools in its toolbox already. The trainer can only develop what is already in there, they can't put it in. Nobody can.
Agreed! ..But them with titles are only the one's that compete :wink:
The same can be said for every other mutt . You saying that they are all not worthy because they don't ? :mrgreen:

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:40 pm

polmaise wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: But the pup that becomes a winning trial dog or champion...had to have the tools in its toolbox already. The trainer can only develop what is already in there, they can't put it in. Nobody can.
Agreed! ..But them with titles are only the one's that compete :wink:
The same can be said for every other mutt . You saying that they are all not worthy because they don't ? :mrgreen:
No...absolutely not. I would never say that. There are many phenomenal dogs that never got the chance to compete. There are many phenomenal dogs that fell into the hands of someone who did not knowhow to bring out the dog's talents. I know about that...I had one that I messed up. She was an awesomely talented dog who got stuck with me for a trainer. Knowing what I now know, she could have won BIG if she had a better trainer and handler.

BUT, and it is a HUGE but...the dog with the field titles and wins has PROVED that it has the stuff. It has demonstrated "the stuff" in the cauldron of competition, in front of independent judges and in open competitions where any and all can come and watch and see for themselves. The titles PROVE that the dog possesses the talents, the abilities..."the stuff". Whether that dog can pass on those talents and abilities...now THAT's not a lead pipe cinch, but it has been shown to be a pretty good bet. The pups out of a world beater dog may not be world beaters, but the odds are high that they will be darned good dogs.

The dog that is phenomenal, but never got a chance to prove it in competition puts the prospective buyer in a pickle. The breeder says this dog is a world beater that never got a chance... the best thing since sliced bread. Do you believe the breeder? THAT is what it comes down to. With field titles, you do not have to trust the breeder as to how good the dog is.

If you have seen both sire and dam in the field a few times, you should have seen all you need to see...BUT how many prospective buyers of puppies can say they saw the sire and dam hunting ?

RayG

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Sharon » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:49 pm

[quote="RayGubernat

Field Titles can give an idea as to what level the handler/owner/trainer has accomplished with the sire or dam.[/quote]

But the pup that becomes a winning trial dog or champion...had to have the tools in its toolbox already. The trainer can only develop what is already in there, they can't put it in. Nobody can.

Every pup is a crapshoot. We all know that. Even the best bred pup can be screwed up by a trainer who does not know what they are doing. We all know that, too.

But, I do feel that field titles can give a real, useful indication of what the pup may well be capable of, in the right hands. If you want a dog to hunt grouse, it makes a whole lot of sense to me to look for a pup whose parents have excelled at grouse trials, because both parents were born with the tools to do that.

You or I may never be able to bring a pup from that breeding to the level where it can win those trials, but it is a fair bet that SOMEBODY can...which means to me that the pup was born with the tools and abilities to be able to perform at the highest levels.

RayG[/quote]

...............................

So well said!! When are you going to start that book? :)

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by pato y codoniz » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:40 am

RayGubernat wrote:
polmaise wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: But the pup that becomes a winning trial dog or champion...had to have the tools in its toolbox already. The trainer can only develop what is already in there, they can't put it in. Nobody can.
Agreed! ..But them with titles are only the one's that compete :wink:
The same can be said for every other mutt . You saying that they are all not worthy because they don't ? :mrgreen:
No...absolutely not. I would never say that. There are many phenomenal dogs that never got the chance to compete. There are many phenomenal dogs that fell into the hands of someone who did not knowhow to bring out the dog's talents. I know about that...I had one that I messed up. She was an awesomely talented dog who got stuck with me for a trainer. Knowing what I now know, she could have won BIG if she had a better trainer and handler.

BUT, and it is a HUGE but...the dog with the field titles and wins has PROVED that it has the stuff. It has demonstrated "the stuff" in the cauldron of competition, in front of independent judges and in open competitions where any and all can come and watch and see for themselves. The titles PROVE that the dog possesses the talents, the abilities..."the stuff". Whether that dog can pass on those talents and abilities...now THAT's not a lead pipe cinch, but it has been shown to be a pretty good bet. The pups out of a world beater dog may not be world beaters, but the odds are high that they will be darned good dogs.

The dog that is phenomenal, but never got a chance to prove it in competition puts the prospective buyer in a pickle. The breeder says this dog is a world beater that never got a chance... the best thing since sliced bread. Do you believe the breeder? THAT is what it comes down to. With field titles, you do not have to trust the breeder as to how good the dog is.

If you have seen both sire and dam in the field a few times, you should have seen all you need to see...BUT how many prospective buyers of puppies can say they saw the sire and dam hunting ?

RayG
I agree and, at some point, be it people or dogs, people demand that potential converts into favorable demonstrable results.

With pedigrees, I'm more of a "show me the genes at work" kinda guy than banking on the possibility of goid genes in the parents. If I haven't seen the dogs work (playing games or on wild birds), I probably know someone, whom I trust, that has seen them or even trained them. When you've maintained a good relationship with a few different trainers and they know you're tip lipped, they'll be bluntly honest about different dogs they've trained.

Also, once a trainer has had exprience in training several different lines and financially secure, they'll know which lines really respond to their training style and will try to stick to certain lines. I recently had a trainer, who has trained a couple of my dogs over the years, call me to tell me about a litter that I might be interested in and then tell me who'd he'd have train that line.

Lastly, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, if you want a kick "bleep" hunting dog, forget the puppy route. It is by far the riskiest mears to that end. Cultivate some relationships with a few of your local horseback field trial trainers and let it be known that you're looking for washouts that are biddable good nosed that show the sagacity for wild birds but don't have horizon range or the 1 hour motor.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by cjhills » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:29 am

Most puppy buyers are looking for much more than simply a winning trial dog or champion. At the national level, at least in the GSP trials, only a few trainers win regularly. In the grand scheme of things very few people want or need a horseback trial dog. I have seen buyers totally intimidated by their five month old puppy running 400 yards out. The next thing is a few grand at the trainers, back to the breeder or rescue.
Very few buyers are planning to trial the pup. Most of our buyers are young families who want a family dog who can also do a good job of bird hunting without spending a little fortune on training. Most pups are house trained and their daily care comes from the lady of the house and she is generally more in favor of spending the money to get the pup she wants.
Very few breeders who do what it takes to develop their bloodlines are over priced on their puppies. It is a long hard road and there are a lot of bumps. It takes a lot of money to get established.
Find a litter you can afford that will perform like you want and you can hardly go wrong.
If you just want a GSP because you like their color you probably are heading for trouble. Those are the puppies that end up in shelters.
But fortunately in the Gsp, at least, if you have a good idea of what you want and stick with the breeders who consistently breed that type of dog. You will almost always get a good dog and most buyers will be happy with their choice regardless of price.........Cj

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Bacon1676 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:25 am

For me... It's pretty simple. The more expensive a puppy is the more I should get for it. That applies to hunting ability, attitude, and most importantly the overall health/build of the dog. With that said, I know there is always a chance you won't get what you pay for, but your odds should be higher the higher the price. Not that I am saying that is the way it is. Going through the process myself of buying a puppy these are the factors I took into account when selecting a breeder. I decided on a price I was comfortable with and looked at breeders within that range. Was willing to spend 800, but if the litter was right, meaning it had a solid pedigree behind it that I would be willing to spend more, but nothing more than a grand. Felt this price range was good for me because I'm not look for a field trial dog, but wanted a dog that would have more of a natural instinct to hunt because I have never trained a hunting dog before, so the more natural the puppy the easier it would be for me. Also, with a more proven lineage you feel like you are getting what you pay for. I don't know a lot of people in the hunting world and the individuals I did know have passed away so I was on my own for the most part in finding and choosing a breeder/litter. Let me also say that winning field trials or hunt test doesn't make that dog better than one who has never hunted in a trial or test, but for me who doesn't know you or your dogs it's all I can go on when looking at litters. Those are just my .02 and what I thought about when I chose the breeder I am going with.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:26 am

Just because a dog may hunt 400 yds or more doesn't mean they can't be a family dog.My FC dog Star would run over a half mile or more to find birds at a trial in front of a horse but also had enough sense to no the difference between a horse & a hunter on foot.She is also the most lovable,calm,& well behaved dog I have ever owned around the house.She will lay her head in your lap & let you scale her teeth,cut & grind her nails.She will stay on my deck until I tell her she can come off it with me.I'm sick of hearing how F Trial dogs are wild uncontrollable BEASTS! I'm going to post a pic of her showing how you can't trust them!
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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by GWPtyler » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:21 pm

I've seen folks pay a stupid amount of money for a backyard bred Lab just because it was labeled a "Fox" color, whatever that means.

Screw it's hunting ability...look at it's COLOR!!! :roll:

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by luvthemud » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:52 pm

GWPtyler wrote:I've seen folks pay a stupid amount of money for a backyard bred Lab just because it was labeled a "Fox" color, whatever that means.

Screw it's hunting ability...look at it's COLOR!!! :roll:
Funny you mention that. Guy at work picked up a fox lab a few months ago. And yes, the color is very important to him lol!

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by pato y codoniz » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:05 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Just because a dog may hunt 400 yds or more doesn't mean they can't be a family dog.My FC dog Star would run over a half mile or more to find birds at a trial in front of a horse but also had enough sense to no the difference between a horse & a hunter on foot.She is also the most lovable,calm,& well behaved dog I have ever owned around the house.She will lay her head in your lap & let you scale her teeth,cut & grind her nails.She will stay on my deck until I tell her she can come off it with me.I'm sick of hearing how F Trial dogs are wild uncontrollable BEASTS! I'm going to post a pic of her showing how you can't trust them!

To be fair, I haven't had a true 1 hour field trialer really learn to throttle it back and be a good foot hunting dog until they hit around 3 years old. From three and on, they see the horse or the atv and they're running. They see a foot hunter and they're a 200 to 400 yard dog which is fine for what and where I hunt.

The younger dogs get hunted on wild birds with an atv or a ruckus.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by pato y codoniz » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:15 pm

GWPtyler wrote:I've seen folks pay a stupid amount of money for a backyard bred Lab just because it was labeled a "Fox" color, whatever that means.

Screw it's hunting ability...look at it's COLOR!!! :roll:
Here in Ca., dumpster bred chocolate labs go for stupid money ($1000 to $1500).

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by NEhomer » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:31 am

Dumpster Bred doesn't sound like a compliment :D

Well I can add a 300 dollar vet visit to my purchase price. He wasn't able to swallow and needed an xray. Luckily it appears to just be tonsilitis so he's got meds and soft food for a few days.

I'm sure there'll be more of those in his lifetime.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:34 am

pato y codoniz wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Just because a dog may hunt 400 yds or more doesn't mean they can't be a family dog.My FC dog Star would run over a half mile or more to find birds at a trial in front of a horse but also had enough sense to no the difference between a horse & a hunter on foot.She is also the most lovable,calm,& well behaved dog I have ever owned around the house.She will lay her head in your lap & let you scale her teeth,cut & grind her nails.She will stay on my deck until I tell her she can come off it with me.I'm sick of hearing how F Trial dogs are wild uncontrollable BEASTS! I'm going to post a pic of her showing how you can't trust them!

To be fair, I haven't had a true 1 hour field trialer really learn to throttle it back and be a good foot hunting dog until they hit around 3 years old. From three and on, they see the horse or the atv and they're running. They see a foot hunter and they're a 200 to 400 yard dog which is fine for what and where I hunt.

The younger dogs get hunted on wild birds with an atv or a ruckus.
That is and has been pretty close to my experience as well, in recent years. If you have a youngster with a big motor, and you let it roll, as most field trialers will, it will take a while for that youngster to mature into a dog that understands that you expect different things from it when you are:
A) Sitting on a horse at a field trial
B) Walking at a field trial
C) Carrying a shotgun for a canned hunt at a preserve
D) Carrying a shotgun for a hunt on wild birds in open country

In point of fact, a field trial dog is not expected to be totally steady to wing and shot in competitions until it is over two years old anyway. The performance standards for a derby dog, which is typically under two years of age, do not require steadiness or backing.

Interestingly, in past years, I did it the other way 'round. I took a hunting dog and brought it to the line at a walking trial and eventually cut him loose in front of a horse. With a dog that has the tools, that can work also.

The dog, if it is a real bird dog, will be able to adjust its hunting application to the task at hand. All it should take is exposure on the part of the dog and shoeleather on the part of the handler. At least, I think it should.

The best, most driven dogs I have ever had, would dial it up, dial it down, suck it in or stretch it out, quarter through cover or smoke down an edge, depending on what it took for them to have a chance to wrap their gums around a bird... because THAT is what they lived and breathed for.

When I have the opportunity to purchase a pup from parents that can do that, I for one, am willing to dig pretty deep into my pocket.
RayG

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:35 am

polmaise wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Field titles can give me an idea as to how the pup will hunt.
Not to labour any point or even the OP.
I disagree with this point ezzy333.
Field Titles can give an idea as to what level the handler/owner/trainer has accomplished with the sire or dam.
LOL!!! Dont think i have ever seen a westminster Pointer run at AMES. After all of its all handler/trainer every dog would be a FC or National Champion.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:41 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Just because a dog may hunt 400 yds or more doesn't mean they can't be a family dog.My FC dog Star would run over a half mile or more to find birds at a trial in front of a horse but also had enough sense to no the difference between a horse & a hunter on foot.She is also the most lovable,calm,& well behaved dog I have ever owned around the house.She will lay her head in your lap & let you scale her teeth,cut & grind her nails.She will stay on my deck until I tell her she can come off it with me.I'm sick of hearing how F Trial dogs are wild uncontrollable BEASTS! I'm going to post a pic of her showing how you can't trust them!

That is what most is not every person who doesnt compete cant realize about a trials dog (or any dog for that matter). They know the difference between running infront of a horse, running for a foot handler, running for a gun, or sitting at home. The dogs know when to turn it on and when to dialed it down. No different than a police k9 dog.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:44 am

pato y codoniz wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Just because a dog may hunt 400 yds or more doesn't mean they can't be a family dog.My FC dog Star would run over a half mile or more to find birds at a trial in front of a horse but also had enough sense to no the difference between a horse & a hunter on foot.She is also the most lovable,calm,& well behaved dog I have ever owned around the house.She will lay her head in your lap & let you scale her teeth,cut & grind her nails.She will stay on my deck until I tell her she can come off it with me.I'm sick of hearing how F Trial dogs are wild uncontrollable BEASTS! I'm going to post a pic of her showing how you can't trust them!

To be fair, I haven't had a true 1 hour field trialer really learn to throttle it back and be a good foot hunting dog until they hit around 3 years old. From three and on, they see the horse or the atv and they're running. They see a foot hunter and they're a 200 to 400 yard dog which is fine for what and where I hunt.

The younger dogs get hunted on wild birds with an atv or a ruckus.
They arent going to win if they are just running to hear the wind in their ears. They still have to handle and mature enough to realize the difference between horse and walking.

Id rather have to spend 3 years hacking my dog in than 15 years of him licking my boots.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:31 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Just because a dog may hunt 400 yds or more doesn't mean they can't be a family dog.My FC dog Star would run over a half mile or more to find birds at a trial in front of a horse but also had enough sense to no the difference between a horse & a hunter on foot.She is also the most lovable,calm,& well behaved dog I have ever owned around the house.She will lay her head in your lap & let you scale her teeth,cut & grind her nails.She will stay on my deck until I tell her she can come off it with me.I'm sick of hearing how F Trial dogs are wild uncontrollable BEASTS! I'm going to post a pic of her showing how you can't trust them!

To be fair, I haven't had a true 1 hour field trialer really learn to throttle it back and be a good foot hunting dog until they hit around 3 years old. From three and on, they see the horse or the atv and they're running. They see a foot hunter and they're a 200 to 400 yard dog which is fine for what and where I hunt.

The younger dogs get hunted on wild birds with an atv or a ruckus.
They arent going to win if they are just running to hear the wind in their ears. They still have to handle and mature enough to realize the difference between horse and walking.

Id rather have to spend 3 years hacking my dog in than 15 years of him licking my boots.
Gee, I would rather not have to do either. It always makes me smile when they tell me field trial dogs are the same as the local breeders but those dastardly local bred pups can't hold a candle to their field trial dogs. Not sure that we can have it both ways. I do agree that trial dogs can be just as calm in the house as any other dog but they do not hunt the same as you all admit. People who don't trial do understand trial dogs and most don't want them which has very little to do with how they act in the house. I just don't understand why it is such a crime for anyone to like a certain type of dog that just happens to be different from what you like. And I don't understand why we work so hard trying to convince everyone that a field trial dog is so wonderful in everyway and that slob next door has dogs that are worthless. Practically every one of us think our dogs are wonderful, and that is what we all should shoot for, and I for one at least, am not going to try and convince you my dog is better than yours because it placed in a trial. And I won't tell you Babe Ruth is a better football player because he could hit homeruns. I have absolutely no reason to do that. And I have no reason to tell everyone you don't know what you are talking about or that you aren't a wonderful human being just because you want something different than I do.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:17 pm

Ezzy I never put anyone elses dog down but people who know nothing about F Trial dogs are the ones always running their mouth about how useless they are as house dogs or hunting dogs.
They have the right to come on here & try to run our dogs down but like they say if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.I will never post another word on this site & I'm sure that will make some like CJ HAPPY!

Just to be sure you can delete my membership.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:10 pm

Why would I delete your membership? And why are you so upset when no one has said a thing about your dogs or how they act? Why would you be upset if someone that didn't even know your dogs made a remark about them? What difference does it make? We all know how our dogs act and even you said the female pictured was better than the rest of yours and I think that is true with all of us that have had multiple dogs, they are not all the same, and there are trial bred dogs that are not pleasant in the house as well as other dogs that aren't also. Dogs like people have different personalities and one rule has never fit all.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:44 pm

ezzy333 wrote: People who don't trial do understand trial dogs
Dont have to read too many threads to know this isnt true and I was guilty as well until I bought a trial dog.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:01 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote: Dont have to read too many threads to know this isnt true and I was guilty as well until I bought a trial dog.
Try Training one instead of buying one ,believe me it's more difficult ! .Unless you have loads of dosh though :mrgreen:
Have a beer :lol:

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by greg jacobs » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:55 pm

Let's see. Started talking about the price of dogs. Somewhere along the way it really went south.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:59 pm

greg jacobs wrote:Let's see. Started talking about the price of dogs. Somewhere along the way it really went south.
:mrgreen:
Following the scent :wink: :lol:

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:03 pm

Good topic with a lot of good perspectives. As a hobby breeder who wants to build the best lines I can afford, my thoughts are somewhat different.

I buy the best breeding stock I can afford. One of my last females was an AI by a HOF dog that had been gone for quite a few years. I paid double for what the market rate was at the time. Now I am in the process of "proving her".

I spend a considerable amount of money (for me) proving the ability of my line by Field Trialing or paying a pro to trial my dogs. Anyone who does this knows how expensive it is trying to develop your lines.

I have spent a considerable amount of time and money trying to breed a bitch and stud with 3 NFC /NAFC's in their first 2 generations. After 3 breeding attempts including an AI and 2 C-sections we produced 3 pups of which only one survived. It made no sense to try sell him as I could not price him high enough to recover my costs. All I can hope for is for him to turn out good enough to include him in my breeding stock. Of course this will require more time and money to "prove him" and he may never prove out.

My point? I am a responsible breeder who "try's" to do the right thing with health certifications and a fair amount of research for health and performance traits in the family tree. I love my dogs (they make it worth while getting up in the morning) but I can never recover my costs through puppy sales. Its a Hobby. I do not try to price my pups at the "top of the market" I prefer to be a price follower not a price leader. I suppose if I had a few NFC's in my kennel I would think differently. I try to price at around 75 - 80% of the top market rate. If I am selling to a Field Trialer I will drop my price substantially. Why? Because this person can help me to prove out my line of dogs. I worry about a pup that is sold too cheaply as the owners may not place the value in the dog and it could become a "throw away".

As a puppy buyer I think you should buy the best "you can afford" but don't sell the farm getting one. Ok, I have rambled enough.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:41 pm

polmaise wrote:
RyanDoolittle wrote: Dont have to read too many threads to know this isnt true and I was guilty as well until I bought a trial dog.
Try Training one instead of buying one ,believe me it's more difficult ! .Unless you have loads of dosh though :mrgreen:
Have a beer :lol:
I did thanks.
#1 Open Puppy in CKC
#8 Open Derby in CKC (ran in 3 stakes)

AFTCA Region 14
#2 Single Course Puppy
#6 Single course Derby (ran 2 stakes)

Calgary Pointing Dog Club Junior DOY
GSP Field Club of AB Puppy of the Year
GSP Field Club of AB Derby Dog of the Year

Id say we did pretty good in 2014 for a dog that was just over a year old, first time trialer, and being run off a horse once before the season started. BTW this is on the prairies with a shorthair.

Breaking him this year instead of running him as a Derby. Hopefully he is ready for continuous course Shooting Dog in the fall, if not we will be ready next year.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:07 am

He read "until I bought a trial dog" he didn't know you bought a pup.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by pato y codoniz » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:48 am

polmaise wrote:
RyanDoolittle wrote: Dont have to read too many threads to know this isnt true and I was guilty as well until I bought a trial dog.
Try Training one instead of buying one ,believe me it's more difficult ! .Unless you have loads of dosh though :mrgreen:
Have a beer :lol:
There are some extremely biddable ft lines out there. As in "the most biddable dog I've ever seen" type lines.

Btw, most guys are unreasonably scared of ft dogs

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Deets » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:05 pm

I think gun dogs are the best value around. I was recently in the market for a close working English pointer. Almost all the breeders I found ask $500-$600. I Ended up buying elhew bred pup for $600. I think that is a heck of a bargain for a dog bred for such a specific purpose. I bought my son a Boston terrier for Christmas and it cost $800. I have seen laberdoodles sell for $900 on Craigslist. I would probably pay upwards of $1,500 if I thought I would get a superior pup. If you look at the money you spend to go hunting $600 is a drop in the hat.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:29 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ezzy I never put anyone elses dog down but people who know nothing about F Trial dogs are the ones always running their mouth about how useless they are as house dogs or hunting dogs.
They have the right to come on here & try to run our dogs down but like they say if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.I will never post another word on this site & I'm sure that will make some like CJ HAPPY!

Just to be sure you can delete my membership.
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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:15 pm

The large majority of FT dogs, especially AKC gundogs are 150 yardish dogs. Not exactly horizon busters...

I see very very few true 500+ yard dogs that dont just run off.

Oh I paid $300 for my GSP, who is one of the best dogs I have ever been around.

And $400 for my pointer that has 2 RU CH wild bird horseback placements. Been a good dog.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Gertie » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:32 am

Ezzy,

To be fair, this was a pretty passive aggressive thing to say: " It always makes me smile when they tell me field trial dogs are the same as the local breeders but those dastardly local bred pups can't hold a candle to their field trial dogs. Not sure that we can have it both ways. I do agree that trial dogs can be just as calm in the house as any other dog but they do not hunt the same as you all admit. People who don't trial do understand trial dogs and most don't want them which has very little to do with how they act in the house."

I've been on this forum for a while and don't make it a habit to get embroiled in these little dramas however, I have noticed that it's extremely rare that anyone on this site who field trials rips on those who don't or their dogs. I see it the other way around plenty. I can see why Vonzepplin got upset.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by cjhills » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:30 am

Gertie wrote:Ezzy,

To be fair, this was a pretty passive aggressive thing to say: " It always makes me smile when they tell me field trial dogs are the same as the local breeders but those dastardly local bred pups can't hold a candle to their field trial dogs. Not sure that we can have it both ways. I do agree that trial dogs can be just as calm in the house as any other dog but they do not hunt the same as you all admit. People who don't trial do understand trial dogs and most don't want them which has very little to do with how they act in the house."

I've been on this forum for a while and don't make it a habit to get embroiled in these little dramas however, I have noticed that it's extremely rare that anyone on this site who field trials rips on those who don't or their dogs. I see it the other way around plenty. I can see why Vonzepplin got upset.
One small Comment. personally I like the trial dogs and do not rip them. I have some pretty big runners. I have seen words like "boot licker" used to describe NAVHDA and Hunt test dogs on this forum.
My only question has been why the trial people feel such a need to defend what they do and get so upset by anyone who does not want to do it.
I simply do not agree that a FC proves the dog is the elite dog in the bird dog world or that every pointing dog owner would want or need one. Why can't you just enjoy your dogs.
THis is a GUN DOG forum..................Cj

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Nutmeg247 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:39 am

Deets wrote:I think gun dogs are the best value around. I was recently in the market for a close working English pointer. Almost all the breeders I found ask $500-$600. I Ended up buying elhew bred pup for $600. I think that is a heck of a bargain for a dog bred for such a specific purpose. I bought my son a Boston terrier for Christmas and it cost $800. I have seen laberdoodles sell for $900 on Craigslist. I would probably pay upwards of $1,500 if I thought I would get a superior pup. If you look at the money you spend to go hunting $600 is a drop in the hat.
True and very interesting to me to see the differences between breeds and types of dogs in price.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by clink83 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:23 am

cjhills wrote:
Gertie wrote:Ezzy,

To be fair, this was a pretty passive aggressive thing to say: " It always makes me smile when they tell me field trial dogs are the same as the local breeders but those dastardly local bred pups can't hold a candle to their field trial dogs. Not sure that we can have it both ways. I do agree that trial dogs can be just as calm in the house as any other dog but they do not hunt the same as you all admit. People who don't trial do understand trial dogs and most don't want them which has very little to do with how they act in the house."

I've been on this forum for a while and don't make it a habit to get embroiled in these little dramas however, I have noticed that it's extremely rare that anyone on this site who field trials rips on those who don't or their dogs. I see it the other way around plenty. I can see why Vonzepplin got upset.
One small Comment. personally I like the trial dogs and do not rip them. I have some pretty big runners. I have seen words like "boot licker" used to describe NAVHDA and Hunt test dogs on this forum.
My only question has been why the trial people feel such a need to defend what they do and get so upset by anyone who does not want to do it.
I simply do not agree that a FC proves the dog is the elite dog in the bird dog world or that every pointing dog owner would want or need one. Why can't you just enjoy your dogs.
THis is a GUN DOG forum..................Cj
Probably because most of the drivel spouted about trail dogs on this forum is BS. From my perspective most hunters don't train their dogs well if at all, which is why a dog from FT lines would seem so bad. A "bootlicker" with bad manners will still produce birds, where a big running dog won't.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by Gertie » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:39 am

I don't think there's anything wrong with either type. It's like arguing over which is better, an orange or a tangerine. I also think that the two types (and the in betweens) are a lot less different than folks think. They can even come from the same litter. Someone explained it to me this way, in most All Age breedings you're going to maybe get one All Age dog that will be competitive in trials. You might get one good Shooting Dog as well. The rest will lack the independent nature that drives them to range far enough to be a competitive horse back field trial dog. However, they will still have the endurance, strength, drive and personality to make top notch gun dogs that most hunters want and will enjoy. So by breeding for the exception (the true All Age dog) you wind up producing consistent quality hunting dogs. I guess I don't see this as an either or thing. It's just what you're into and what you enjoy. There is no reason to be nasty about what comes down to personal preference. In the end we all love dogs, have an interest in the heritage and history of our sports/breeds, and enjoy being outdoorsmen/women. We've got more in common than not and it's a shame that some insist on making this a "my dog is awesome and yours sucks" thing.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:51 pm

Gertie wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with either type. It's like arguing over which is better, an orange or a tangerine. I also think that the two types (and the in betweens) are a lot less different than folks think. They can even come from the same litter. Someone explained it to me this way, in most All Age breedings you're going to maybe get one All Age dog that will be competitive in trials. You might get one good Shooting Dog as well. The rest will lack the independent nature that drives them to range far enough to be a competitive horse back field trial dog. However, they will still have the endurance, strength, drive and personality to make top notch gun dogs that most hunters want and will enjoy. So by breeding for the exception (the true All Age dog) you wind up producing consistent quality hunting dogs. I guess I don't see this as an either or thing. It's just what you're into and what you enjoy. There is no reason to be nasty about what comes down to personal preference. In the end we all love dogs, have an interest in the heritage and history of our sports/breeds, and enjoy being outdoorsmen/women. We've got more in common than not and it's a shame that some insist on making this a "my dog is awesome and yours sucks" thing.
Thank you Gertie, That is exactly what I was saying. Dogs are different, but you can't classify them just by what you do with them. But we all have the right to enjoy what we want. I to hear people on this forum criticize dogs that aren't trial dogs and I hear the other side too. I will bet which I hear most often but that means little as it probably just relates to how many people we have in each camp.

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Re: How Much Would you Pay for a Pup?

Post by pato y codoniz » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:14 pm

clink83 wrote: Probably because most of the drivel spouted about trail dogs on this forum is BS. From my perspective most hunters don't train their dogs well if at all, which is why a dog from FT lines would seem so bad. A "bootlicker" with bad manners will still produce birds, where a big running dog won't.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say that they don't like big running dogs because they bump birds out of range or I've seen guys shooting their close ranging dog's bumped birds... I'd be buying a real nice double today.

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