What's everyone's idealistic dog?

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Bacon1676
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What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Bacon1676 » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:49 am

I'm pretty new to the in depth world of hunting. I've hunted behind several different kinds of dogs and have my preferences. But I was wondering what everyone looks for in a dog/puppy's? Meaning what makes a good field trial dog and what makes a good foot dog (physical build as well as mental). What key features do you look for in a puppy to make the dog you want? I'm curious to see what everyone's opinions are.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:08 pm

I am partial to pointers because they hunt the way I like to see a dog hunt.'

I like a physically large dog, on the order of 50# for a female and 60# for a male. They tend to last longer in the field and do not beat themselves up running and they are easier to see on point. I like a dog that is high on both ends on point.

I want a dog with tight feet and a reaching stride. I want the dog to have a nose capable of finding scent at the dead run and the ability to hunt to the front without hacking.

I want a dog that comes when I call, goes out when released and turns on command. I want a dog that is honest on its birds(point and hold until I get there).

I want a dog that is smart enough to take instruction without dozens of repetitions, , mentally tough enough to take discipline when it defies a known command, physically and mentally tough enough(some call it grit, endurance or bottom) to hunt for extended periods in hot, cold, wet, muddy or difficult terrain and cover, and driven enough to hunt hard until it falls over on its nose.

I want a dog that is smart enough to adapt to the conditions, terrain or task at hand. if I am sitting on a horse at a trial, and blow the GO whistle, I want that dog to be a speck on the horizon, but the next day, when I am hunting a 40 acre preserve for stocked birds, I want the dog to suck it in and hunt for the gun...and everything in between.

It would be nice if the dog was quiet in the kennel, did not dig and pooped in a pile and not all over the yard or kennel run.

Other than that, I'm pretty flexible. :lol:

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:29 pm

Apart from trial dogs being the same as "foot" dogs for many gamebirds and birdhunting pursuits :idea: ...I like the dog that looks into my eyes and I also need to see something at work behind their eyes when I look.
It may be the same with them.
The particulars of all the fiddly stuff of a dog playing their part afield follows the breeding more often than not....but, you asked about the dog.
I reckon that were I to be honest then I would prefer a dog that forgives easier than most.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by 41magsnub » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:02 pm

whoops - double tap
Last edited by 41magsnub on Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by 41magsnub » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:05 pm

Very close to what my GWP is.

Leggy 50-60lb female with good endurance
Low maintenance coat
Intelligent, but not smarter than I am!
Close to medium range working
Sunny disposition and friendly to everybody and everything, no need for the dog to be a guard or watch dog
Quiet - not yappy or feel the need to bark at every noise. My GWP is nearly silent, only if she is REALLY worked up does she make noise, usually in the form of yipping while chasing a wounded bird.
Energetic and bird crazy in the field, but can turn it off at home
Bold, but not crazy - easy to introduce to new things, people, and situations.
Independent, does not need to be with me at all times. Can entertain herself if nothing is going on.
Not dominant or dog aggressive, but also not super submissive (no submissive piddlers and the like). Said differently, will let another dog and all people be dominant, without being pathetic about it.
Biddable, not a dog you have to beat over the head with a (metaphoric) 2x4 to get a point across
Able to take correction without shutting down. This is where my dog is falls down a little. I have to be really careful with corrections, she is very sensitive.

Edit - should have added good instincts and hunting ability. I want the basics to be there so the yard work is steadying and fine tuning, not trying to teach the dog to point.
Last edited by 41magsnub on Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by cjhills » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:53 pm

First and foremost I want a bird dog which is a natural bird finder. Some are much better than others at this and range has very little to do with it.
Second, I do not like to spend a lot of time training so I like my dog to come from parents with natural hunting skills. I do not think you should have to train a dog to point, honor or retrieve. I have never force fetched a dog and I never owned a dog who would not retrieve.
Range is not real important to me. I like dogs who run some. But they must stay with the handler. I like hunting birds, not dogs.
I am very big on conformation. I like good looking medium sized dogs. that are nice movers.
I want a dog that pretty much minds his own business, since I hunt and test with a lot of different dogs. a bit of sniffing is okay but then we need to get on with it.
I do not care if they are not overly friendly to strangers. I prefer a little aloofness. I do not want a dog who wants to prove how tough he is every time he meets a strange dog
I do not mind a dog who is a bit soft as long as they are intelligent and train well.
I like style and staunchness on point but I do not need a 12 o'clock tail.
Good looking bird finders that almost anybody can train........................Cj

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by USMC » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:27 pm

The training is what makes a hunting dog beatiful....

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by cjhills » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:49 pm

USMC wrote:The training is what makes a hunting dog beatiful....
The breeding is what makes the hunting dog beautiful. No amount of training will make a ugly dog beautiful.....Cj

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:10 pm

I like long tails, short hair, and lots of markings.

I prefer a smaller dog.

I like my dogs with lots of run, but to adjust well. I enjoy them on the edge of out of control.

I like a little grit, mentally and physically.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by mnaj_springer » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:40 pm

I'm not a field trialer, just a hunter and occasional hunt test(er)... But I need a great temperament. A dog that's always friendly and cooperative. Especially because 80% of the year they are companions and the other 20% they are bird finders.

Other than that, a good nose, biddible, and willing to hunt for the gun. That's why I like the 2 at my feet.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by jubal » Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:52 pm

OK. The poster asked what to look for in a dog or pup. Some described the characteristics of an ideal dog that you might accidently stumble on once in a lifetime if you're talking about a pup, and one that is going to cost you in the range of $2500 if you're talking about a trained and finished gun dog. My view may be controversial, but it's based on half a century of quail hunting - mainly with acceptably good dogs, a couple exceptional and a couple I don't want to think about.

Picking a pup. This is a crap shoot. We've paid as little as $150 and as much as $1000 for a pup. I look for a hunter who has a litter from which to obtain his next dog and trying to sell the rest. The price is usually what the seller asks. I agree that the initial cost of a pup is not a consideration compared to the cost throughout his life. Our experience is about $1000 per year per dog, excluding major injuries or sickness. The usual inspection of the parents, bloodlines, etc should be observed, of course. If the owner starts bs'ing you about how great the sire, dam, or both are, walk away, unless you are first-hand familiar with the greatness of the sire/dam. You want an honest hunter, not a salesman. His facilities will tell you a lot about how much he cherishes his dogs. As to how a pup will develop as a house pet in the off season, I don't have a clue.

You might sense that I do not trust breeders, those who breed dogs for profit. Not so if he also trains and sells finished dogs. He demands top line parents and bloodlines.

That's my thoughts, for what it's worth. (It's free.)

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:18 pm

I think that all dogs that have an exceptionally high prey drive and a fantastic nose, that well trained and hunt at a range that is acceptable for the terrain and cover, are ideal dogs.

From there it is just what you like... while I have several shorthairs, an ugly dog, and a couple of retrievers; I really love all well trained hunting dogs.

I've always been tempted to get into setters but I don't feel like shaving them all the time and, unlike gsps, I don't know anything about the different lines.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:39 pm

cjhills wrote:
USMC wrote:The training is what makes a hunting dog beatiful....
The breeding is what makes the hunting dog beautiful. No amount of training will make a ugly dog beautiful.....Cj
The Training for sure makes a dog become as good as it is capable of achieving. How beautiful depends on what your vision is.
Personally I've never went for looks ,so an Ugly dog is beautiful to me if it is well trained :wink:
If any one can tell me how to pick an individual pup from any breed lines and assure me that it will be the most idealistic dog when it is matured then I will honestly change profession :mrgreen:

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by USMC » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:33 pm

cjhills wrote:
USMC wrote:The training is what makes a hunting dog beatiful....
The breeding is what makes the hunting dog beautiful. No amount of training will make a ugly dog beautiful.....Cj

Try and have fun with an untrained dog...

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What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by trips2win » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:42 pm

Raygubernat. Fantastic post. I have trained 2 gsp. It is everything I have thought but never really verbalized. Thanks!

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:22 pm

Picking a puppy I find a litter I like, and pick the pup I like the looks of.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by clink83 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:41 pm

Most important to me is the dog is my friend, and enjoys spending time with me. I could care less if a dog has perfect manners on birds if its only interest is finding the next bird. That's why I love hunting my britt more than my pointer.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:10 am

My ideal dog:

-intelligent, learns quick
-biddable, a bit soft in nature but hard going in the field
-nose, a dog you can see from a distance is picking up scents and works itself accordingly
-has a clear on/off switch when transitioning from home to field and back
-style. The dog has got to be fun to watch and add a level of excitement to the hunt
- size and colour are not important to me, currently small/medium dogs suit me best due to the fact I do not have much living space
-would prefer a low maintenance coat, my dog lacks here, he sheds like a mofo
- natural retriever
- good with kids
- quiet. I cannot stand dogs that are noisy

Pretty close to my current dog, he's just too hairy and a bit too high strung in the house. Other than that he has everything I like.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Sharon » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:38 pm

trips2win wrote:Raygubernat. Fantastic post. I have trained 2 gsp. It is everything I have thought but never really verbalized. Thanks!
After reading Ray's post I was reminded how fortunate I am to have the dogs I do.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Bacon1676 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:44 pm

Love all the replies, but what I'm looking for is the physical structure of a dog. For example in horses, which is what I know, I want a horse with a long front leg, knee 3/4 of the way down the leg, with the leg as far forward on the shoulder as possible. Neck needs to be coming as far up the shoulder as possible so they can set up. Medium back with a nice round butt and the most important feature the hind legs, which needs to have a distinguishing hock so they can push forward when they travel. Having a straight hind leg decreases a horses ability to trot affectively which can possibly lead to soundness problems down the road. Obviously, this is a very short description of what I look for in a horse, but I'm looking for the same type of answer and how do you or can you pick a puppy that will grow up to be idealistic to physically perfect as possible? I do know that temperament plays a huge role in the overall makeup of a dog, believe me I have had several horses that had all the physical characteristics you would want one to have, but lacked the heart to use it. Thanks for answering my questions.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by shags » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:53 pm

Well then you have to narrow it down by breed. You don't expect thoroughbred conformation on a Appaloosa, do ya?

Whatever breed you are interested in, look at examples of their top field dogs. Look for similarities in structure, and answer your own question :)

Must remember, in some top dogs, heart has overcome structural deficiencies.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by polmaise » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:08 pm

Sharon wrote:
trips2win wrote:Raygubernat. Fantastic post. I have trained 2 gsp. It is everything I have thought but never really verbalized. Thanks!
After reading Ray's post I was reminded how fortunate I am to have the dogs I do.
After reading Ray's post it's what most would want . Very few get it . Those that do train for it and make it .
The poop in the yard most can live with as long as the rest of the stuff is there . Ray is just after 'utopia' :mrgreen: .

Breeding only gives you what you have bred and what you have been breeding to give what you are looking for physically .
You can't breed Brains and you can't breed courage and you can't breed experience .
Yes Ray, lovely post :wink: .Just not 'realistic' because it's full of ''I want'' , rather than ''This is what you get'' .

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:25 pm

polmaise wrote:
Sharon wrote:
trips2win wrote:Raygubernat. Fantastic post. I have trained 2 gsp. It is everything I have thought but never really verbalized. Thanks!
After reading Ray's post I was reminded how fortunate I am to have the dogs I do.
After reading Ray's post it's what most would want . Very few get it . Those that do train for it and make it .
The poop in the yard most can live with as long as the rest of the stuff is there . Ray is just after 'utopia' :mrgreen: .

Breeding only gives you what you have bred and what you have been breeding to give what you are looking for physically .
You can't breed Brains and you can't breed courage and you can't breed experience .
Yes Ray, lovely post :wink: .Just not 'realistic' because it's full of ''I want'' , rather than ''This is what you get'' .
I think the subject of this thread is "What's everyone's idealistic dog?" Makes sense that the idealistic dog includes a lot of those "I want" characteristics. And I'm sure intelligence, aka brains, can be selectively bred for, as well as, to some degree, an aptitude towards courage.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:34 pm

Physical structure is unimportant to me as long as it does not hinder the dog in any way. Doesn't need to have a show champion's conformation... just needs to be functional.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Soarer31 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:07 pm

IMO the "idealistic dog " =" Dual field trial Champion" :D

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by displaced_texan » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:56 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:Physical structure is unimportant to me as long as it does not hinder the dog in any way. Doesn't need to have a show champion's conformation... just needs to be functional.
Very true. My preferred size in my preferred breed doesn't meet standards.

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Post by jarbo03 » Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:02 pm

Must sit patiently and mark multiple doves, cover enough ground with enough nose to chase chickens and sharptails, track and pin running pheasant, be able to make multiple long retrieves on ducks in the river current, and crash through the ice on late season honkers. My current has surpassed all my expectations.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:04 pm

Bacon1676 wrote:Love all the replies, but what I'm looking for is the physical structure of a dog. For example in horses, which is what I know, I want a horse with a long front leg, knee 3/4 of the way down the leg, with the leg as far forward on the shoulder as possible. Neck needs to be coming as far up the shoulder as possible so they can set up. Medium back with a nice round butt and the most important feature the hind legs, which needs to have a distinguishing hock so they can push forward when they travel. Having a straight hind leg decreases a horses ability to trot affectively which can possibly lead to soundness problems down the road. Obviously, this is a very short description of what I look for in a horse, but I'm looking for the same type of answer and how do you or can you pick a puppy that will grow up to be idealistic to physically perfect as possible? I do know that temperament plays a huge role in the overall makeup of a dog, believe me I have had several horses that had all the physical characteristics you would want one to have, but lacked the heart to use it. Thanks for answering my questions.

To me the only thing that matters is field performance. For a dog to perform consistently at the highest levels of competition, a number of things must be in place. One of those things is proper functional conformation.

I suggest that you take some time to attend some AKC trials in your area. Ideally there will be a trial sponsored by a GSP club, so you can see a fair number of shorthairs. Two stakes will be of particular interest to you for evaluating the dogs. The standard of performance for Gun Dog stakes is such that it should reward dogs that handle kindly and hunt hard, but which stay in view most of the time. The standard of performance for an All age stake is such that it should reward dogs that cover ground with more independence, having less visual contact with the handler.
These are all half hour stakes.

If the club is sponsoring a GRAND event, you will generally see a higher caliber of dog, since a number of the dogs competing will have already finished their requirements for Field Champion or Amateur FC. In other words, many of the dogs competing will have been judged, several times in competition, to have been the best. And a dog that can run for an hour in front of a horse has a good bit of what it takes to hunt for the walking hunter for several hours at a clip.

You should also attend an AKC Hunt Test or two. These are walking events. The dogs that compete at Senior and Master levels are quite polished and hunt to the gun very well. You will see a different kind of performance, but the same functional conformation attributes that you saw in the best dogs in horseback stakes should show up here as well.

Once you start to see the kind of performance you want in your own personal bird dog, you can start looking at the physical attributes of the dogs that "do what you like", because, again, the dogs that do what you like will have the physical attributes, the functional conformation, to be able to do what you want them to do.

Dogs will tend to pass on their abilities to their offspring. So, if you find dogs that do what you like, their progeny should also, for the most part.

To me that is the real beauty of the competitive dog games. They distill down a whole host of things into a package that you can look at and say: "I like this. I want this....but I don''t want much of THAT."

And with that knowledge you can find dogs that produce the kind of dog you like without ever defining the length of the dog's hock, or the height at shoulder or depth of chest or any of the myriad of individual attributes. Why?? Because someone has already done it for you. They have produced that dog, trained and tested that dog in competition.

RayG

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:29 am

Pretty much over thinking the whole process. Nobody finds their Idealistic dog. You can do all the things that Ray G. suggests and still find that you did not get you dog you thought you were getting. Titles mean very little in picking a pup. Going to trials and tests mean even less. Unless you go to enough to really learn what is going on you will learn basically nothing and that will only be what the people want you to learn. Trials and tests are more about training and handling than what the dog will produce. The people at these events are trying to sell you there what they like. It might be hat you like and it might not. Many of these dogs are genetic freaks which never produce as good as they are. Conformation in dogs , as in horses,is very important in a dogs structural soundness and longevity. Running hard as a three or four year old does not mean doing the same at ten years old.
Find a litter from dogs you like and a breed you like breed. From a breeder you are comfortable with. It is pretty easy to tell if the breeder is trying to snow you or not. tell him what you want and if he is the type of breeder you want to deal with he will tell you if he has that type of dog. If you want a dog to hunt birds with buy from a bird hunter....................Cj

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:01 am

I love the logic CJ...don't trust the metrics and opinions of third party judges, even better don't trust what you see. Buy your pup from someone you are comfortable with, is that the measure of a good dog? Its pretty easy to see if they are trying to snow you? How is that? What is pretty easy to see, are people on line with an agenda and a limited myopic view of the dog world with enough time to try and convince others that they are relevant and the thoughts of others are irrelevant even if it flies in the face of logic.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:02 pm

Chukar
I am not trying to start some big Argument and it as nothing to do with trusting a third party. Did you really need a third party to tell you what you want in your dogs. When you first started did you go ask a judge what your dog should do and be, or did you have an opinion and start with that. You probably had to modify your opinion somewhat to compete. But I really hope you had one It is just the simple fact that when you go to a few trials and tests you have no idea what is going on, why one dog does better than another and frankly you do not know what you see............Cj

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:12 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I love the logic CJ...don't trust the metrics and opinions of third party judges, even better don't trust what you see. Buy your pup from someone you are comfortable with, is that the measure of a good dog? Its pretty easy to see if they are trying to snow you? How is that? What is pretty easy to see, are people on line with an agenda and a limited myopic view of the dog world with enough time to try and convince others that they are relevant and the thoughts of others are irrelevant even if it flies in the face of logic.
Perfect response to something that just made me shake my head.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:32 pm

CJ, what I want in a dog is fluid. It is constantly changing as my passion for the simplistic beauty in a dog's performance replaces my desire to see the dog as a tool, a means to an end in the hunt. I don't begrudge or judge anyone who sees it differently, and there are plenty of folks who follow the plane I am on in the opposite direction, and when it comes to what they want they are no more wrong than I am right. I believe after investing the time and resources heavily in the hunting world as a wild game fanatic and guide for all my youth (including the world of big-game hounds), continuing that and adding to it in bird dog competition, that the more fertile ground for trust and knowledge is in the data you find when many people determine the ability and characteristics of the dog. The data is built in safe, I agree with you (and suspect there are many things we would agree on) that trust is something that takes a bit more time but all relationships should be approached like that in my opinion.

JG

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by cjhills » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:I love the logic CJ...don't trust the metrics and opinions of third party judges, even better don't trust what you see. Buy your pup from someone you are comfortable with, is that the measure of a good dog? Its pretty easy to see if they are trying to snow you? How is that? What is pretty easy to see, are people on line with an agenda and a limited myopic view of the dog world with enough time to try and convince others that they are relevant and the thoughts of others are irrelevant even if it flies in the face of logic.
Perfect response to something that just made me shake my head.
Thanks Ezzy I appreciate it.
The reason you shake your head is because you do not get it. Tell me the value of a trial or MH test to a first time dog buyer.
All of my breeding stock are MH dogs. the easiest dogs to MH are certainly not my best dogs. I had a pet raccoon I could have titled except he ran off with the birds and ate them. dang mutt. didn't have a twelve o'clock tail either. Master titles prove nothing.
FC titles are a dime a dozen, the wins mean nothing, unless you know the quality of the placements. I have seen many FC,s that were not worth the price of their food. I have bought pups from a few that were not at all what their parents were. Lost a good deal of money by guessing wrong.
Explain to me the value of a beginner watching a thirty minute brace in a trial or hunt test, when even the judges do not agree. At least in a test he will possible get a chance to see a real retrieve.
I have sold a few hundred puppies I had to take three back. Two out of the three were buyers crying because they could not keep the puppy. Point is almost every body buying their first puppy is going to like it.
Find the best litter you can from parents you like, shut your eyes pick up a puppy and buy it. Or let the breeder pick for you. Of course part of the fun is picking the puppy. But while you will not get your idealistic dog. Chances are good you will get a very good dog. Your taste in dogs will change as you evolve.
Incidentally you can buy Shadow Oaks Bo Puppies that are Six Months old $ 600. It ain't that easy.................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gonehuntin'
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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:01 pm

These days I'm a meat hunter guy so though I LOVE flash, I don't recquire it. I want a dog that hunts pheasant, grouse, sharpies, huns, woodcock and quail. I want a dog that is a good water dog, that runs blinds, that will handle large duck and geese. I want a dog that plays with my grandchildren, is a love in the home, and spends the day at work with me. I have that dog now.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:46 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:I love the logic CJ...don't trust the metrics and opinions of third party judges, even better don't trust what you see. Buy your pup from someone you are comfortable with, is that the measure of a good dog? Its pretty easy to see if they are trying to snow you? How is that? What is pretty easy to see, are people on line with an agenda and a limited myopic view of the dog world with enough time to try and convince others that they are relevant and the thoughts of others are irrelevant even if it flies in the face of logic.
Perfect response to something that just made me shake my head.
Thanks Ezzy I appreciate it.
The reason you shake your head is because you do not get it. Tell me the value of a trial or MH test to a first time dog buyer.
All of my breeding stock are MH dogs. the easiest dogs to MH are certainly not my best dogs. I had a pet raccoon I could have titled except he ran off with the birds and ate them. dang mutt. didn't have a twelve o'clock tail either. Master titles prove nothing.
FC titles are a dime a dozen, the wins mean nothing, unless you know the quality of the placements. I have seen many FC,s that were not worth the price of their food. I have bought pups from a few that were not at all what their parents were. Lost a good deal of money by guessing wrong.
Explain to me the value of a beginner watching a thirty minute brace in a trial or hunt test, when even the judges do not agree. At least in a test he will possible get a chance to see a real retrieve.
I have sold a few hundred puppies I had to take three back. Two out of the three were buyers crying because they could not keep the puppy. Point is almost every body buying their first puppy is going to like it.
Find the best litter you can from parents you like, shut your eyes pick up a puppy and buy it. Or let the breeder pick for you. Of course part of the fun is picking the puppy. But while you will not get your idealistic dog. Chances are good you will get a very good dog. Your taste in dogs will change as you evolve.
Incidentally you can buy Shadow Oaks Bow Puppies that are Six Months old $ 600. It ain't that easy.................Cj


Don't think I am shaking by head as much about what you were trying to say as I was about the way you said it.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:21 pm

I think we get it Cj. I know I get it just fine.

It is just that I and apparently some others do not agree.

I think it is a HUGE step in the education process of a new bird hunter to attend an organized event such as an AKC field trial or Hunt Test. They can watch literally dozens of dogs negotiate the same course(s) under pretty much the same conditions and see how they do what they do. And they can do it in one or two days. It might take a year or more to see that many different dogs in the field and you would have no way of comparing their performances since they would be on different days, under different conditions, over different terrain, etc.

You obviously have a low opinion of AKC field trials and hunt tests. You are entitled to your opinion.

I simply do not have the same low opinion. There are things about AKC trials and tests I like, and things I am not so fond of.

But one thing is undeniable. Tests and trials will show you hat you have in terms of a dog's abilities...if you know what to look for. I am of the opinion that the main reason why the average bird hunter can, in fact, close their eyes and pick a pup out of any reasonably well bred litter, is the fact that somewhere along the line and not too far back usually, there are dogs that excelled in tests and/or trials who passed along some of those abilities.

And even if the OP or any other new person comes away from the trials or test only with a clear idea of what they DON"T want in a companion hunting dog, that is still a HUGE step forward in the learning process. Knowing what you don't want is darn near as important as knowing what you do want. At least I think so.

You yourself said that several of your dogs were out of Master Hunter stock. If those tests were so worthless, why did you even consider including those dogs in your breeding program?

Can't have it both ways dude. I call BS. :lol: :lol:

RayG

BTW -

Several years back I had an ongoing discussion on a now defunct board with a well known and well respected shorthair breeder out of Texas. He had no use for trials and downplayed their usefulness. One thing led to another and he finally decided to prepare one of his good bird dogs for field trials. Guess what? His dog placed in several trials and wound up getting an FC. He was justifiably proud that a dyed in the wool wild bird hunter and a dyed in wool wild bird dog could be VERY competitive. I was happy for him and pleased that I had a part in goading him into doing something that improved the reputation of his kennel.

He also said that the dog might not be his best hunting dog, but his mix of talents made him his best trial dog prospect. That was a fair statement from a man who had obviously done his homework regarding what it took to be successful at trials, and who knew his dogs, and their abilities intimately well.

Like I told him: "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." It was all him...his breeding, his dog, his training and his handling. He did it, and I was pleased as punch.

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:10 pm

RayGubernat wrote:I think we get it Cj. I know I get it just fine.

It is just that I and apparently some others do not agree.

I think it is a HUGE step in the education process of a new bird hunter to attend an organized event such as an AKC field trial or Hunt Test. They can watch literally dozens of dogs negotiate the same course(s) under pretty much the same conditions and see how they do what they do. And they can do it in one or two days. It might take a year or more to see that many different dogs in the field and you would have no way of comparing their performances since they would be on different days, under different conditions, over different terrain, etc.

You obviously have a low opinion of AKC field trials and hunt tests. You are entitled to your opinion.

I simply do not have the same low opinion. There are things about AKC trials and tests I like, and things I am not so fond of.

But one thing is undeniable. Tests and trials will show you hat you have in terms of a dog's abilities...if you know what to look for. I am of the opinion that the main reason why the average bird hunter can, in fact, close their eyes and pick a pup out of any reasonably well bred litter, is the fact that somewhere along the line and not too far back usually, there are dogs that excelled in tests and/or trials who passed along some of those abilities.

And even if the OP or any other new person comes away from the trials or test only with a clear idea of what they DON"T want in a companion hunting dog, that is still a HUGE step forward in the learning process. Knowing what you don't want is darn near as important as knowing what you do want. At least I think so.

You yourself said that several of your dogs were out of Master Hunter stock. If those tests were so worthless, why did you even consider including those dogs in your breeding program?

Can't have it both ways dude. I call BS. :lol: :lol:

RayG

BTW -

Several years back I had an ongoing discussion on a now defunct board with a well known and well respected shorthair breeder out of Texas. He had no use for trials and downplayed their usefulness. One thing led to another and he finally decided to prepare one of his good bird dogs for field trials. Guess what? His dog placed in several trials and wound up getting an FC. He was justifiably proud that a dyed in the wool wild bird hunter and a dyed in wool wild bird dog could be VERY competitive. I was happy for him and pleased that I had a part in goading him into doing something that improved the reputation of his kennel.

He also said that the dog might not be his best hunting dog, but his mix of talents made him his best trial dog prospect. That was a fair statement from a man who had obviously done his homework regarding what it took to be successful at trials, and who knew his dogs, and their abilities intimately well.

Like I told him: "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." It was all him...his breeding, his dog, his training and his handling. He did it, and I was pleased as punch.
You still are missing my point.
First, I definitely do not have a low opinion of trials and test and I did not say my breeding dogs come from master stock. I said all of my breeding dogs have master titles. They were trained and handled in the tests by me. Most for at least two generations. I have only one dog in my kennel that I did not breed and I bought him at three months old. He needs one more pass to finish his title. I am one of the biggest supporters of hunt tests in Minnesota and I think I am second in the number of master Passes And first place goes to a pro but I am gaining on him.
Your sentence That begins with" One thing is undeniable," ends with" If he knows what to look for", that is my point.
You can call BS all you like and I am not trying to change anybody's opinion. I can have it both ways I really like the dog games, But to suggest a beginner can watch a few thirty minute master braces or local dog club trials and come away with anything of value is a stretch. As I said even the Judges do not agree and they have seen a lot of dogs. The only way you will learn what you want in a dog is to hunt with the dog. You evolve and you make mistake buy for the most part you will like your dog.
That's my story and I am sticking to It. "Dude"................................Cj

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Re: What's everyone's idealistic dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:32 pm

Cj-

So now you LIKE hunt tests? Man you coulda fooled me with what you wrote. I stand corrected.

Maybe its me. Maybe I have more faith in a person's powers of observation and analysis than you do. Maybe I have more confidence that if a newcomer asks a question, even a silly one, someone will take the time to give them a decent answer, at a test or a trial, if they are sincere and actually want to know.

Maybe it is that I have ridden in the back of the gallery with a fair number of folks who were very new to the sport and saw how quickly they picked up on which dogs were doing a good job and which were not. Most had no clue what the dog or handler was doing or why, and could not put into words why they liked one performance more than another...but most knew they liked some performances better than others. They were watching ...and, I think, learning. Interestingly(to me)...more often than not, the performances they liked, were pretty fair efforts.

I found that most folks picked up fairly quickly on the standing still parts of the game...manners around game, pointing style and such. Most were not so quick to pick up on the differences in the moving parts of the game, the effective ground application, gait, effective range, comeback, proper use of the wind and such, but then those are the kinds of things it takes hunting experience and lots of boot leather to really understand.

Oh and FC's are not really dime a dozen. I put one on a dog and it cost a whole lot more than that in time and effort and money. The kinds of dogs that can put down an all age ground application might not be the kind of dog you want to breed to or hunt over, but that doesn't mean they are not quality animals.

My ideal dog is one that I can run in front of a horse for an hour in a shooting dog or all age stake and beat the snot out of every other dog entered...AND THEN, the very next day foot hunt that same dog for two or three hours on a preserve for stocked ditch parrots and have fun.

Funny thing is... I have actually come pretty close to that ideal a few times over the years.


I am not a huge fan of the Master Hunter test and the kinds of dogs it rewards. Most that I have seen are a bit too mechanical for my taste.

But they are generally very nice dogs, for the most part, very responsive, able to take a high level of training and very, very good around game. Most folks would be thrilled to hunt behind such a dog.

RayG


RayG

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